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[Ashes]

Being Muslim was so exhausting, I'm glad I'm done with that noise. That being said, if anyone has any questions about what it's like being an ex-muslim, I can answer some I guess. I feel as though a lot of people have misconceptions about the Islamic world.

are you done with the religion or the god idea as a whole?

 

[Kinitari]

are you done with the religion or the god idea as a whole?

God idea as a whole. It wasn't like I was particularly angry at Islam or anything, just sort of realized I wasn't a believer one day. Around the same day I realized that you didn't HAVE to be a believer. That was the biggest thing for me, realizing there was an alternative. I think a lot of Muslims right now don't realize that it's possible to -not- be Muslim.

 

[Ashes]

God idea as a whole. It wasn't like I was particularly angry at Islam or anything, just sort of realized I wasn't a believer one day. Around the same day I realized that you didn't HAVE to be a believer. That was the biggest thing for me, realizing there was an alternative. I think a lot of Muslims right now don't realize that it's possible to -not- be Muslim.

I'm not following. So you realized that God A didn't exist, or the whole existence of an outside entity as a whole didn't exist, or couldn't exist, so does that not logically follow that you are not muslim? So where does the 'you didn't have to' be a believer aspect come in as an addition to that? are they not one and the same thing?

 

[Kinitari]

I'm not following. So you realized that God A didn't exist, or the whole existence of an outside entity as a whole didn't exist, or couldn't exist, so does that not logically follow that you are not muslim? So where does the 'you didn't have to' be a believer aspect come in as an addition to that? are they not one and the same thing?

Maybe I wasn't entirely clear. Growing up, I was always pretty sceptical of a God, but everything I knew involved God. I said a prayer when I ate, entered a room, who knows what - just it was always a part of life. I wasn't really sure that there was a God, but I always thought something along the lines of "Well, it's not like any of the other options are any better" - never considering that Atheism was an option. Then in Highschool, I met my first Atheist, or at least, open Atheist and I was amazed. I was wondering what I had to do to be one, and eventually I realized - nothing, I already was one.

 

[KtSlime]

Being Muslim was so exhausting, I'm glad I'm done with that noise. That being said, if anyone has any questions about what it's like being an ex-muslim, I can answer some I guess. I feel as though a lot of people have misconceptions about the Islamic world.

I'm interested in learning more about Islam, I was wondering if I should just jump in and start reading the Qur'an, or go visit a mosque, or if there is a better place to learn about the religion - a non-Islamaphobic introductory book maybe?

A lot of the Muslims I know are a lot like Christians, they practice Islam because that's what their parents told them to do, but they aren't really scholars on their religion, and whenever something is brought up about the religion, it is automatically "a misinterpretation" or "needs a (sorry I forgot the word for spiritual advisor) for guidance".

 

[Kinitari]

I'm interested in learning more about Islam, I was wondering if I should just jump in and start reading the Qur'an, or go visit a mosque, or if there is a better place to learn about the religion - a non-Islamaphobic introductory book maybe?

A lot of the Muslims I know are a lot like Christians, they practice Islam because that's what their parents told them to do, but they aren't really scholars on their religion, and whenever something is brought up about the religion, it is automatically "a misinterpretation" or "needs a (sorry I forgot the word for spiritual advisor) for guidance".

There are a lot of sources online where you can read up on Islam, unfortunately, they're pretty much all skewed one way or another. But there are some that are not. Mostly though, if you go to a Mosque and just talk to an Imam, most will be very chill and answer as many questions as you have - be respectful and they'll probably be thrilled to answer your questions, and also probably try to convert you, but that's just how some of them are.

If you try to have a real debate with a Muslim though, you can run into problems with a sort of... brick wall mentality. But that might just be me, I've tried a few times and generally I get the slow headshake when they realize I'm an apostate. No one has tried to beat me up or anything because of it, so that's good.

But to summarize, the internet can do the trick, and talking to someone at a Mosque would be cool too. Don't bother reading the Qu'ran, it's like the Bible, so many parts are nearly identical. Also, if you have any really open minded Muslim friends, who are knowledgeable (which you don't seem to have), they're your best bet for debating.

 

[Ashes]

Maybe I wasn't entirely clear. Growing up, I was always pretty sceptical of a God, but everything I knew involved God. I said a prayer when I ate, entered a room, who knows what - just it was always a part of life. I wasn't really sure that there was a God, but I always thought something along the lines of "Well, it's not like any of the other options are any better" - never considering that Atheism was an option. Then in Highschool, I met my first Atheist, or at least, open Atheist and I was amazed. I was wondering what I had to do to be one, and eventually I realized - nothing, I already was one.

Sorry for asking questions, I'm a writer, and for what it's worth, I use all things I learn about the human psyche, sometimes years later, in stories I write.

It seems like you are rationalising what you said before, because you are now saying that you were always an athiest, whereas before you said, quite clearly, that one day, you realised that you weren't a believer. I'm not trying to pick holes, but I'm getting mixed messages here.

Are you saying that you were a 'sheep' so to speak? or are you trying to propel the argument through experiance, to others that 'you don't have to be a muslim', or follow religion etc

At no point did you believe, that something could be out there, is different, to believing, and slowly the doubt growing, and skepticism rising, and getting convinced, shall we say that a diety doesn't exist one day.

 

[Kinitari]

Sorry for asking questions, I'm a writer, and for what it's worth, I use all things I learn about the human psyche, sometimes years later, in stories I write.

That's cool, I said ask as many questions as possible

It seems like you are rationalising what you said before, because you are now saying that you were always an athiest, whereas before you said, quite clearly, that one day, you realised that you weren't a believer. I'm not trying to pick holes, but I'm getting mixed messages here.

? No, at that point I realized that if I wanted to be an Atheist, I could just be one. I was 'Muslim' in every sense of the word I can think of, I prayed, went to mosque, said all the right stuff at all the right time, but I did it just because it was the routine I was accustomed too. When I realized I didn't -have- to do those things it was just basically... like dropping a heavy weight, I kept looking for a new spot to put this heavy weight, but then I just realized I could drop it anywhere. I guess that's the best way for me to describe it.

Are you saying that you were a 'sheep' so to speak? or are you trying to propel the argument through experiance, to others that 'you don't have to be a muslim', or follow religion etc

Bit of both I guess. I was Muslim only because it was all I knew, so in that matter, yeah I was a sheep. My parents never talked about Atheism with me, no one ever did, I never had the opportunity to comprehend a world without God. When I realized such an endeavour was possible, it was so easy just... going ahead and doing it. If there are any other Muslims that feel the same way, like they are Muslims only because that is the world they know, because they think they have no choice, I wish they could realize that no one is forcing them. Ironically the Qu'ran itself says, there is no compulsion in religion. It just seems like people forget that sometimes.

At no point did you believe, that something could be out there, is different, to believing, and slowly the doubt growing, and skepticism rising, and getting convinced, shall we say that a diety doesn't exist one day.

I think you misunderstood me, I never said I always was Atheist - simply that once I realized I did not have to believe, my world started to make sense. The first instance, as silly as it was, that doubt started to creep into me was when I was around 8 or 9. I did something wrong, I don't remember, but I told my mom I didn't do it. She told me to say "W'Allahee", which means to those who don't know "I swear to god". It's a big deal to some people, and at a young age I was taught that I could absolutely not misuse this phrase. Right then and there, I tried it out, I'd never lied and swore to god at the same time, and this was a weird feeling for me. Nothing happened to me though, I don't know what I was expecting - to be struck my lightening or something, but nothing happened. I guess that's when the serious doubt started creeping in.

 

[Ashes]

I see.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I'm interested in learning more about Islam, I was wondering if I should just jump in and start reading the Qur'an, or go visit a mosque, or if there is a better place to learn about the religion - a non-Islamaphobic introductory book maybe?

If you don't wish to visit a mosque (as there are many mosques and many groups and visiting one can sometimes be disorientating), I might suggest a book of the seerah rather than the Qur'an, as it loses much in translation. The seerah is a book describing the life or characteristics of the Messenger of God, Mohammed (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam).

A short book of descriptions from a classical source would be the Shamai'l of Tirmidhi, which can be found online pretty easily. A good, Englishman written seerah is that of Martin Lings (simply called 'Mohammed).

A lot of the Muslims I know are a lot like Christians, they practice Islam because that's what their parents told them to do, but they aren't really scholars on their religion, and whenever something is brought up about the religion, it is automatically "a misinterpretation" or "needs a (sorry I forgot the word for spiritual advisor) for guidance".

Indeed, that is something always to be kept in mind, the religion these days is lacking in scholars more than any other thing. Understandings of even basic theology are often not understood by many Muslims. Of course there are sources of traditional scholarship that one can find. Here are a few links to Traditionalist Sunni sources:

http://seekersguidance.org/
http://risala.org/
http://www.masud.co.uk/
http://www.naeemabdulwali.com/

Convert speakers like Sheikh Naeem Abdul Wali, Sheikh Abdal Hakim Murad, Sheikh Hamza Yusef and Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller can be a good source as they speak a language we are familiar with. In many ways, most Traditionalist Islamic scholars are steeped in the Greek tradition of rhetoric, something that was abandoned some time ago in most of the West. Thus when they speak, they are speaking from a different tradition, even if in English, and as such their rhetorical style can take some getting use to.

I think meeting with an educated, religious Muslim is always the best way to understand the religion, but you may not have any to hand. That fails, I am a convert and I study (though looking at this thread I am not inclined to wade in) so if you have any questions that you would like to ask, you can feel free to PM me.

 

[Darackutny]

I'm interested in learning more about Islam, I was wondering if I should just jump in and start reading the Qur'an, or go visit a mosque, or if there is a better place to learn about the religion - a non-Islamaphobic introductory book maybe?

I think that if I were you I'd go straight to the source. I don't see why you shouldn't check out a translation of the Qur'an. Also check out a biography of Mohammed called "The Sealed Nectar". It is one of the better books written in the subjects since the author mainly quotes authentic historical material from sources that were written over a thousand years ago.

I wouldn't bother with contemporary scholars unless you hit a road block and can't find any answers. The knowledge of early Muslims still exist today on the shelves of many libraries.

 

[Instigator]

Being Muslim was so exhausting, I'm glad I'm done with that noise. That being said, if anyone has any questions about what it's like being an ex-muslim, I can answer some I guess. I feel as though a lot of people have misconceptions about the Islamic world.

I have a few.

Any reaction from friends or family, assuming they know of your disbelief?

Do you still say Peace Be Upon Him whenever Mohammed or some other character in the Qu'ran is named?

If you see an event or a story where Muslims are wronged, do you feel any different than when any other group is wronged? Do you feel embarassed when Muslims do something stupid?

Even having turned your back on Islam, do you still do anything by force of habit related to Islam (prohibition of pork, for example)?

Do you still see anything in Islam that is supernatural or miraculous or do you just view it as man-made fantasy?

Have your views on other religions changed?

How do you cope with modern science?

 

[OttomanScribe]

I think that if I were you I'd go straight to the source. I don't see why you shouldn't check out a translation of the Qur'an. Also check out a biography of Mohammed called "The Sealed Nectar". It is one of the better books written in the subjects since the author mainly quotes authentic historical material from sources that were written over a thousand years ago.

I wouldn't bother with contemporary scholars unless you hit a road block and can't find any answers. The knowledge of early Muslims still exist today on the shelves of many libraries.

The main issue lies with translation. If one is reading in English, then, like it or not, the 'knowledge of early Muslims' is still coming through contemporary scholars.

As to going straight to the Qur'an, the reason I spoke against it is simply the fact that a non-Muslim may read it as a contemporary novel (start to finish) and be faced with Surah Baqarah straight up. I know personally I initially found the translations of that verse both unenlightening and dense. For a non-Arabic speaker, the Qur'an will tell less about the religion than will the character of the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam).

As to the Sealed Nectar... it is published by Dar us Salam, with recommendations primarily coming from Saudi Arabia. This would be considered an issue by many Muslims as it could be seen to represent the ideal of a certain sect.

 

[archnemesis]

I'm interested in learning more about Islam, I was wondering if I should just jump in and start reading the Qur'an, or go visit a mosque, or if there is a better place to learn about the religion - a non-Islamaphobic introductory book maybe?

Islam: The Straight Path by John L. Esposito and Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman by W. Montgomery Watt are both good introductory books along with a translation of the Qur'an.

 

[Darackutny]

As to the Sealed Nectar... it is published by Dar us Salam, with recommendations primarily coming from Saudi Arabia. This would be considered an issue by many Muslims as it could be seen to represent the ideal of a certain sect.

Well, the author is Indian, if that helps. I also don't see what "Saudi Islam" would have to do with a book on the biography of Mohammed. Most of the book is based on Ibn Hisham's seerah and the early books of traditions. There is no "Salafiness" involved and I don't know how you reached that conclusion.

 

[Azih]

So, the criteria of accepting contradicting historical narrations revolves around:

1- The amount of sources
2- Closeness to the historical event

Anything else?

That at the very least, it also behooves us to check the circumstances of the *historian* himself when they wrote their work. Did they project the values of their times backwards onto the historical era that they were documenting? Did the influential people of that time have vested interests in portraying the historical figures of their time in one way or the other to justify their own influence? It all boils down to treating human historians as humans with all the complications and fallibility that that entails.

Do you know that your view is more extreme than that of the Mu'atazilites? They argued that only hadiths that are mutawatir are to be accepted.

Ok. Does that matter in some way?

 

[Kinitari]

I have a few.

Kay

Any reaction from friends or family, assuming they know of your disbelief?

None of them know, but their reactions are predictable. Extended family would tell me it was a phase I was going through, and that they've all been there, it's normal, and I'll snap out of it. Pretty benign. My mom would be sad, my dad would be mad.

Do you still say Peace Be Upon Him whenever Mohammed or some other character in the Qu'ran is named?

Nope, haven't for a long time, I still sometimes say "Al-hamdulillah" and what not, but that's a lot more rare. Like twice a year, rare.

If you see an event or a story where Muslims are wronged, do you feel any different than when any other group is wronged? Do you feel embarassed when Muslims do something stupid?

Yeah, I still get that defensive feeling when people attack Islam. It's deeply rooted in me I guess, or maybe it's just because I empathize, I've been there. Still, sometimes it's me doing the 'attacking', so it's not always like that - it's really only when I see people say unreasonable things about Islam. And I feel embarrassed still when Muslims do silly things, that hasn't gone away at all over the years.

Even having turned your back on Islam, do you still do anything by force of habit related to Islam (prohibition of pork, for example)?

The pork thing I got over when I was 17 or so. It sort of all happened at once, even though I hadn't considered myself Muslim for years at this point, I still hadn't done anything like smoke, or drink, eat pork - etc. Then I just... did a bunch of things like that, not a lot - and I still don't. But I went to a party, had a pepperoni pizza and had two wine coolers. Just so people understand, I still am probably a much lighter drinker than most people my age, and I don't smoke or do any other recreational drugs other than drink Alcohol, I just don't bar myself from doing it.

If I see someone praying though, I don't walk in front of them, I wonder if that still counts.

Do you still see anything in Islam that is supernatural or miraculous or do you just view it as man-made fantasy?

Well, I don't see anything that's really supernatural or miraculous anywhere, but I wouldn't use the harsh words of 'man-made fantasy'. That's too... mean, I guess.

Have your views on other religions changed?

Well, My Atheism sort of applied to all religions, so not particularly. They're almost all the same to me, and I can see why some people need or appreciate religious and spiritual guidance in their life, I just worry when that religious guidance starts being mandated, and is no longer an option.

How do you cope with modern science?

Very well, I've taken to Evolution like fish to water, and I've always had a love for tech stuff, I'm in school right now for Computer Science.

 

[Azih]

How do you cope with modern science?

Not to jump into a private convo but I don't know any practicing muslims that any problems with modern science at all, let alone needing to cope with it.

 

[Darackutny]

That at the very least, it also behooves us to check the circumstances of the *historian* himself when they wrote their work. Did they project the values of their times backwards onto the historical era that they were documenting? Did the influential people of that time have vested interests in portraying the historical figures of their time in one way or the other to justify their own influence? It all boils down to treating human historians as humans with all the complications and fallibility that that entails.

Have you put any effort into looking into those things personally?


I'm sure you are aware of a hadith that condemns ignoring hadiths. What is your opinion about this hadith? If you believe that it was fabricated and attributed to the Prophet, then who do you believe is responsible for doing this? If you aren't sure of who did it, then when and where do you assume that this fabrication took place?

 

[Azih]

Have you put any effort into looking into those things personally?

What that the human historians of the Hadith and Sunnah were human and fallible? I'm taking that as kind of given. And based on that assumption their works can't be used as the basis of a religion. They're not of divine origin like the Quran is.

I'm sure you are aware of a hadith that condemns ignoring hadiths. What is your opinion about this hadith?

My opinion is that you can't use a hadith to justify hadiths. That's circular reasoning.

 

[archnemesis]

Not to jump into a private convo but I don't know any practicing muslims that any problems with modern science at all, let alone needing to cope with it.

Creationist muslims are not really that uncommon. Have you seen this interview by Dawkins? The school's understanding of modern science is lacking to say the least.

Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4

 

[Azih]

Creationist muslims are not really that uncommon. Have you seen this interview by Dawkins? The schools understanding of modern science is lacking to say the least.

Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4

Sure, but there is a wide gulf between 'not really that uncommon' and 'common'. I don't like 'faith schools' but you can't really label an entire group of people based on that video; hell not all 'faith schools' are like the ones that video portrays either obviously.

Edit: It's just incredibly odd to me that Insitgator felt the need to ask Kinitari how he's 'coping' with modern science like Kinitari was living in the middle of the amazon rain forest while Muslim and was seeing airplanes for the first time after becoming Atheist or something. There seem to be a lot of demeaning assumptions there.

 

[Instigator]

Edit: It's just incredibly odd to me that Insitgator felt the need to ask Kinitari how he's 'coping' with modern science like Kinitari was living in the middle of the amazon rain forest while Muslim and was seeing airplanes for the first time after becoming Atheist or something. There seem to be a lot of demeaning assumptions there.

I don't know. it looks to me like you're the one making assumptions out of a straightforward, 7-word question.

 

[Azih]

I don't know. it looks to me like you're the one making assumptions out of a straightforward, 7-word question.

Well, why did you ask it?

 

[Instigator]

Aside from creationists, I've seen the acceptance of science among some Muslims is... special. They might accept, for example, gravity and how it works but they will imply it's part of God's actions and stuff. I think the right word is tahid or something like that.

 

[Azih]

Aside from creationists, I've seen the acceptance of science among some Muslims is... special. They might accept, for example, gravity and how it works but they will imply it's part of God's actions and stuff. I think the right word is tahid or something like that.

Alright I suppose I can see that. The use of the word 'cope' was incredibly unsettling though.

 

[Darackutny]

My opinion is that you can't use a hadith to justify hadiths. That's circular reasoning.

That wasn't even my question. From what I've understood, your view is that hadith, in general should be rejected. I may be a bit naive in assuming that you believe that there is some truth in a small amount of what was preserved. Unless you are assuming that Mohammed never narrated anything in his 23 years of prophet-hood that have anything to do with how religion is to be practised. So, based upon that assumption, some of it should be authentic, right? Or did the Muslims fail miserably in recording anything he narrated because they never really took him seriously in the first place? I'm trying to figure out how you think dude.

Back to my question. I want you to explain the existence of that particular hadith.


Who fabricated it? When was it fabricated? Where was it fabricated at? Any idea? Or are you just going to reject it because it doesn't suit your desires? Put some friggin' effort into religion man.

 

[Zapages]

Math Genius O_O: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7M6dRU80Rk&feature=player_embedded

 

[Azih]

That wasn't even my question. From what I've understood, your view is that hadith, in general should be rejected.

I'm saying that they can't be used as a primary source of the religion as they are. The Quran I believe is from a divine source, the Hadith are absolutely completely not, they're a completely human source.

Who fabricated it? When was it fabricated? Where was it fabricated at? Any idea? Or are you just going to reject it because it doesn't suit your desires?

Stop putting words in my mouth and stop trying to imagine what my motivations are. It's just as annoying and irritating and pointless when you do it as when speculawyer does it. I am rejecting the Hadith as there is no good reason to accept them. I'm not sure why you're asking me about a specific Hadith when I've given you an absolute ton of reasons why I don't accept Hadith in general

You want to know where I'm coming from? Ok I'll tell you.

I grew up in Saudi Arabia and basically in religion class and just generally I've been exposed to the idea that the Bible and the Torah are not reliable as, unlike the Quran, they were written hundreds of years after the primary sources died and thus they were corrupted (you know us we have no problems disparaging other religions but are incredibly violently sensitive when someone does the same to us). That made sense to me and I accepted it.

Then sometime later I learned that the Hadith we have were, just like the bible, written down hundreds of years after the Prophet died. I went "Huh" and applied the same logic that we all apply to the Bible to the Hadith. Then I went about my merry way. I wasn't even aware that my conclusion was in any way radical at all until freaking years later.

And you know what there hasn't been any argument that has swayed me from that completely simple logic.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Then sometime later I learned that the Hadith we have were, just like the bible, written down hundreds of years after the Prophet died. I went "Huh" and applied the same logic that we all apply to the Bible to the Hadith. Then I went about my merry way. I wasn't even aware that my conclusion was in any way radical at all until freaking years later

.


What do you know about the compilation of the hadith? You are aware that many hadith have the same level of authentication as the Qur'an, some even more so right? Do you accept those hadith? How does one pray without the hadith? Or indeed more generally conduct one's business as a Muslim? Only 4% of the Qur'an is concerned with the law, the hadith is the means through which we get access to our interpretation of the Qur'an itself, the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam).

 

[Darackutny]

I'm saying that they can't be used as a primary source of the religion as they are. The Quran I believe is from a divine source, the Hadith are absolutely completely not, they're a completely human source.

Stop putting words in my mouth and stop trying to imagine what my motivations are. It's just as annoying and irritating and pointless when you do it as when speculawyer does it. I am rejecting the Hadith as there is no good reason to accept them. I'm not sure why you're asking me about a specific Hadith when I've given you an absolute ton of reasons why I don't accept Hadith in general

You want to know where I'm coming from? Ok I'll tell you.

I grew up in Saudi Arabia and basically in religion class and just generally I've been exposed to the idea that the Bible and the Torah are not reliable as, unlike the Quran, they were written hundreds of years after the primary sources died and thus they were corrupted (you know us we have no problems disparaging other religions but are incredibly violently sensitive when someone does the same to us). That made sense to me and I accepted it.

Then sometime later I learned that the Hadith we have were, just like the bible, written down hundreds of years after the Prophet died. I went "Huh" and applied the same logic that we all apply to the Bible to the Hadith. Then I went about my merry way. I wasn't even aware that my conclusion was in any way radical at all until freaking years later.

And you know what there hasn't been any argument that has swayed me from that completely simple logic.

I don't see how you believe that the compilation of the Qur'an and hadith were different. It isn't like the Qur'an fell down from the sky and is today guarded by angels in Makkah. It was collected and compiled after the death of the Prophet by fallible humans.

You see, I asked the question I asked because those that accept hadith sciences do have the ability to answer questions like the one I asked you. One CAN determine when specific hadiths were fabricated, by whom and even at times where.

What are your views on the different qira'aat? Do you simply accept the qira'a of Hafs 'an Asim and reject the others?

 

[OttomanScribe]

What are your views on the different qira'aat? Do you simply accept the qira'a of Hafs 'an Asim and reject the others?

Lol. I hadn't even thought of that it is a good point.

 

[RustyNails]

I grew up in Saudi Arabia and basically in religion class and just generally I've been exposed to the idea that the Bible and the Torah are not reliable as, unlike the Quran, they were written hundreds of years after the primary sources died and thus they were corrupted (you know us we have no problems disparaging other religions but are incredibly violently sensitive when someone does the same to us). That made sense to me and I accepted it.

Then sometime later I learned that the Hadith we have were, just like the bible, written down hundreds of years after the Prophet died. I went "Huh" and applied the same logic that we all apply to the Bible to the Hadith. Then I went about my merry way. I wasn't even aware that my conclusion was in any way radical at all until freaking years later.

And you know what there hasn't been any argument that has swayed me from that completely simple logic.

I understand that some hadiths are corrupted and fail common sense criteria. But many of the hadiths are preserved due to isnad mechanism in place.

 

[Shanadeus]

Azih make a lot of sense.
Hadiths are for people who need a crutch in order to follow the message of the Qu'ran.

How do you know how to pray without following a Hadith you say?

Read the Qu'ran.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Azih make a lot of sense.
Hadiths are for people who need a crutch in order to follow the message of the Qu'ran.

How do you know how to pray without following a Hadith you say?

Read the Qu'ran.

Lmao. The Qur'an does not describe how to pray. It has always been understood that the Qur'an is to be interpreted through the actions of the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) that is one of his primary roles.

It is not about a crutch, it is about logic.

 

[Shanadeus]

Lmao. The Qur'an does not describe how to pray. It has always been understood that the Qur'an is to be interpreted through the actions of the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) that is one of his primary roles.

It is not about a crutch, it is about logic.

Then don't pray.

That something has always been understood isn't that convincing of an argument either if it's been incorrect from the very beginning.

Is the notion that the Qu'ran is all you need really that strange?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Is the notion that the Qu'ran is all you need really that strange?

Yes, as it was not the understanding of the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) nor any of his companions.

The Qur'an commands the believers to 'establish the prayer' and yet Allah gives us no instruction as to how to do that? Methinks not!

As previously mentioned, there are many hadith with a greater number of chains of transmission than the Qur'an, there is no logical reason not to accept them as accurate depictions of the actions of the Rasul'Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam). This Qur'an alone thing is an understanding bred in those who have never studied the religion beyond the very surface, for only ignorance could maintain it.

 

[Darackutny]

Then don't pray.

That something has always been understood isn't that convincing of an argument either if it's been incorrect from the very beginning.

Is the notion that the Qu'ran is all you need really that strange?

Dude, the Qur'an implies that the Qur'an shouldn't be used as the only source.

41:3 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

75:17-19 It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it: But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated): Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):

Heck, one of the primary uses of the hadith is to explain the Qur'an.

As OttomanScribe has said, there is no reason to reject hadiths and those that do so haven't looked beyond the surface of the religion.

Lol. I hadn't even thought of that it is a good point.

Hahah, I'm just hoping he doesn't say Asim bin Abi Najood never existed but is a conspiracy created by hadithists. =p

 

[Shanadeus]

Dude, the Qur'an implies that the Qur'an shouldn't be used as the only source.

41:3 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

75:17-19 It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it: But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated): Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):

Heck, one of the primary uses of the hadith is to explain the Qur'an.

As OttomanScribe has said, there is no reason to reject hadiths and those that do so haven't looked beyond the surface of the religion.



Hahah, I'm just hoping he doesn't say Asim bin Abi Najood never existed but is a conspiracy created by hadithists. =p

[The Quran 45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?


[The Quran 55:1-3] The Most Gracious(Allah). Teacher of the Quran. Creator of the human beings.

[The Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

[The Quran 6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[The Quran 16:89] The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the Muslims.

[The Quran 2:185] Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.

[The Quran 5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.

[The Quran 5:49] You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations to you. Do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you from some of GOD's revelations to you. If they turn away, then know that GOD wills to punish them for some of their sins. Indeed, many people are wicked.

[The Quran 10:15] When our revelations are recited to them, those who do not expect to meet us say, "Bring a Quran other than this, or change it!" Say, "I cannot possibly change it on my own. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of an awesome day."

[The Quran 54:17] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

[The Quran 39:27] We have cited for the people every kind of example in this Quran, that they may take heed.

It does sound to me that a Hadith can only explain what is found in the Qu'ran but never add something that isn't written in it.

Thus, if the quran says "pray" but not how many times to pray then it is up to you to decide as this is information that cannot be found elsewhere.

 

[Darackutny]

[The Quran 45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?


[The Quran 55:1-3] The Most Gracious(Allah). Teacher of the Quran. Creator of the human beings.

[The Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

[The Quran 6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[The Quran 16:89] The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the Muslims.

[The Quran 2:185] Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.

[The Quran 5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.

[The Quran 5:49] You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations to you. Do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you from some of GOD's revelations to you. If they turn away, then know that GOD wills to punish them for some of their sins. Indeed, many people are wicked.

[The Quran 10:15] When our revelations are recited to them, those who do not expect to meet us say, "Bring a Quran other than this, or change it!" Say, "I cannot possibly change it on my own. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of an awesome day."

[The Quran 54:17] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

[The Quran 39:27] We have cited for the people every kind of example in this Quran, that they may take heed.

I don't see how any of those verses conflict with the verses that I've presented. The verses you quoted order to follow the Qur'an, explain the significance of the Qur'an, and teach to follow His revelation. I don't see how this contradicts any of what I've been saying, since the Qur'an ALSO implies that one should seek the explanation of the Qur'an.

It does sound to me that a Hadith can only explain what is found in the Qu'ran but never add something that isn't written in it.

Thus, if the quran says "pray" but not how many times to pray then it is up to you to decide as this is information that cannot be found elsewhere.

That is a very funky view bro. The amount of prayers is an addition, but an elaboration of what "prayer" is to include. Are you a Muslim by the way?

 

[Shanadeus]

I don't see how any of those verses conflict with the verses that I've presented. The verses you quoted order to follow the Qur'an, explain the significance of the Qur'an, and teach to follow His revelation. I don't see how this contradicts any of what I've been saying, since the Qur'an ALSO implies that one should seek the explanation of the Qur'an.

They paint the picture that you should seek information from the Qu'ran only as it has all the lessons you need to know.
What it implies is your own subjective interpretation of the material at hand.

That is a very funky view bro. The amount of prayers is an addition, but an elaboration of what "prayer" is to include. Are you a Muslim by the way?

Is it funky because it's wrong or because you're just used to hadiths?
Not a muslim btw.

 

[Darackutny]

They paint the picture that you should seek information from the Qu'ran only as it has all the lessons you need to know.
What it implies is your own subjective interpretation of the material at hand.

No it doesn't.

How do you interpret the verses I quoted?

Is it funky because it's wrong or because you're just used to hadiths?

Because it is wrong.

Not a muslim btw.

It shows.

Maybe you can help Azih though. Why should one accept the Qur'an and not hadiths when both were collected by fallible men?

 

[Shanadeus]

No it doesn't.

How do you interpret the verses I quoted?

That we must explain the verses found in the Qu'ran, but not by supplementing it with material found outside of the Qu'ran.

It shows.

Maybe you can help Azih though. Why should one accept the Qur'an and not hadiths when both were collected by fallible men?

Well, my instinctual answer is that it's a reason not to accept both works.
But otherwise, perhaps because the Qu'ran was "first" so to say?

Also have a question that's currently being debated in the Christian thread:

Are abortions permissible in Islam?

 

[crazy monkey]

Any one going To Maulana habib umar conference? . I will try to reach in Toronto one IA

Are abortions permissible in Islam?

you could have just goggled to find the answer you need.

 

[Shanadeus]

I googled but find a lot of conflicting answers.

The BBC itself have on it's page on abortion and islam several contradictory statements:

The soul
Abortion and the soul
Abortion is not permissible after the foetus has a soul

Islam forbids the termination of a pregnancy after soul or 'Ruh' is given to the foetus.

There's disagreement within Islam as to when this happens. The three main opinions are:

* at 120 days
* at 40 days
* when there is voluntary movement of the foetus
o This usually happens during the 12th week of gestation but many women don't notice the movement until much later - sometimes as late as 20 weeks.

A relevant hadith suggests that the moment of ensoulment is 120 days:

Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(as regards your creation), every one of you is collected in the womb of his mother for the first forty days, and then he becomes a clot for another forty days, and then a piece of flesh for another forty days. Then Allah sends an angel to write four words: He writes his deeds, time of his death, means of his livelihood, and whether he will be wretched or blessed (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into his body..."

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 549

However, it's important to note that many scholars believe that life begins at conception, and that all scholars believe that an embryo deserves respect and protection at all stages of the pregnancy.

And then it goes on to say that:

Sanctity of life
Islamic teachings on abortion
Ultrasound picture of a female foetus aged 16 weeks Islam rarely permits abortion after 120 days. This foetus is about 112 days old ©

Muslims regard abortion as wrong and haram (forbidden), but many accept that it may be permitted in certain cases.

All schools of Muslim law accept that abortion is permitted if continuing the pregnancy would put the mother's life in real danger. This is the only reason accepted for abortion after 120 days of the pregnancy.

I guess something can be haram while at the same time not be forbidden?
If so then I guess Islam is pro-choice by nature.

But I'm of course interested in what the common muslim think about this topic which is why I posted the question here.

 

[RiZ III]

Yes, as it was not the understanding of the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) nor any of his companions.

The Qur'an commands the believers to 'establish the prayer' and yet Allah gives us no instruction as to how to do that? Methinks not!

As previously mentioned, there are many hadith with a greater number of chains of transmission than the Qur'an, there is no logical reason not to accept them as accurate depictions of the actions of the Rasul'Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam). This Qur'an alone thing is an understanding bred in those who have never studied the religion beyond the very surface, for only ignorance could maintain it.

If this was the case, then why didn't Muhammad write a book? Why did it take 250 years for people to start writing down the hadith? Also, the idea that the hadith have always been around and been accepted is patently false. It wasn't until Idris al-Shafi'i's wrote his books in around 800 CE that the concept of duality of revelation came to be held as a standard. In his books, he argued against those who held that the hadith were not valid or should considered a source of law.

The point is that the hadith weren't always a part of Islam. In fact all the evidence points to the fact that they weren't around during the first century of Islam, not as we have them today anyways.

To me it's seems a bit strange to accept these writings being authentic sayings of Muhammad simply because they were written down so much later. I mean this during a time when information moved at a camels pace over hundreds of years spanning thousands of miles. A simple game of telephone will show you how quickly words get transfigured into something else. The hadith are less reliable than the Gospels as far as recording the actual words of the men who they are dedicated to.

Now, I'm not saying that the hadith are ALL made up. There are thousands of hadith and I am sure that some of them do record in some form or another the words of Muhammad, but anytime they deviate from the message of the Quran, I can't accept it.

You bring up Salat and Hajj and other rituals and why they aren't detailed in the Quran. For this I point you to the story of the heifer that the children of Israel were asked to sacrifice in Surah Baqarah. God asked them to sacrifice a heifer, so they asked which one it is. He described it. Then they asked what color it is. He answered. They asked for further description. He described it further and then they finally sacrificed it. One of the points this story makes is that the people took a simple command and made it complicated themselves. They could have sacrificed any heifer! Same it is with prayer. God told Muhammad to pray. He told him to bow down with those who bow down, so Muhammad did that. He most likely followed whatever method of prayer he knew of. Either from how the Arabs already did it, or how the Jew's did it as it is very similar to how Muslim's pray (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg).

If God cared for the exact details of prayers, he would have laid them out. He gave some simple outlines. Recite the Quran, bow down, and the timings. The rest was left up to Muhammad and so he did what he thought was best. Rituals such as the method of prayer would have been preserved with or without the hadith. Actually, the exact method of prayer isn't found in the hadith either. Some of it is, but not all of it. Word's are much easier to be lost, and 200 years is more than enough time for them to have been lost, misconstrued, and invented.

edit: If you are interested, I recommend you read "Hadith as Scripture: Discussions on the Authority of Prophetic Traditions in Islam".

 

[effzee]

They paint the picture that you should seek information from the Qu'ran only as it has all the lessons you need to know.
What it implies is your own subjective interpretation of the material at hand.

Is it funky because it's wrong or because you're just used to hadiths?
Not a muslim btw.

Regarding prayer...it is not described HOW TO DO IT in the Quran but the Prophet (pbuh) did himself show his companions how to pray and prescribed the schedule we have. I guess the point is that yes the Quran is the primary source but there are some things the Prophet (pbuh) either explained or showed how to do.

I was always taught that if any hadith sounds questionable or contradicts the Quran, I should reject it or question its chain.

 

[akira28]

I would personally not care and neither should anyone else, granted I like my women unseen

Oh yeah buddy. you know it!!!1! Megawinks back at ya!


(Wow.......)

 

[Shanadeus]

Regarding prayer...it is not described HOW TO DO IT in the Quran but the Prophet (pbuh) did himself show his companions how to pray and prescribed the schedule we have. I guess the point is that yes the Quran is the primary source but there are some things the Prophet (pbuh) either explained or showed how to do.

I was always taught that if any hadith sounds questionable or contradicts the Quran, I should reject it or question its chain.

But what about when the hadith brings up something that the Qu'ran doesn't even cover vaguely?

Seems to me that it's up to each individual follower of the religion to decide whether or not they should follow a hadith and to claim that they are less of a muslim by not following them seems a bit unfounded in my opinion.

 

[Azih]

I don't see how you believe that the compilation of the Qur'an and hadith were different. It isn't like the Qur'an fell down from the sky and is today guarded by angels in Makkah.

Will all due respect to both you and Ottoman, this is the only point that you two have raised that I think is a good one. The Quran was after all compiled 18 years after the death of the Prophet under the guidance of Uthman.

And the answer is that I, of course, do not *know* that the Quran is the word of God as that is something that is impossible to prove or disprove one way or the other. I *believe* it is though and that is why I am a Muslim.

Why don't I extend my belief to the Hadith/Sunnah as well? Because there is nothing in the Quran that requires it. And that includes the verses you mentioned Darucktuny. They don't require taking as gospel the hadith and Sunnah as compiled by the Saheehain.

Edit: Plus I think one of the worst things that Muslims engage in is the obsession over who is 'a real muslim' or is not. In the end God is the judge, not any one of us. And comments like this:

This Qur'an alone thing is an understanding bred in those who have never studied the religion beyond the very surface, for only ignorance could maintain it

are not valid in the face of that simple fact.

Edit 2: Plus we have lost sight of for how incredibly the 'Ummah' changed in the decades after the prophet died and have no appreciation for the sheer amount of diversity that has existed within it and exists within it today.