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[Ivan A Nguyen]

Is all music the same? If we agree that songs about anal sex are worse in Islam than songs which express a love of Allah, then does that same heirarchy/quantification of sin apply to the enjoyment it provides?

While a reductionist view is always full of holes, let's take it even further. If we just isolate the words, then I can tell you that it is much more sinful to enjoy one over the other. I'm not even of this faith, but I can tell you that this is probably universal.

 

[Shanadeus]

Oh, I had missed this religious thread:

It's no surprise that we have a lot of religious members on this board but something I've noticed lately is that there's a significant amount of people in this group that is unsure of their beliefs and that gravitate towards either religious or atheist threads - in hopes of getting their beliefs supported and their faith reaffirmed or to perhaps, subconsciously, get help admitting that they don't really believe in their chosen religion.

The reason I'm posting this is because I believe that we can take a more active role to help these people

Basically,what we need is some unbiased and non-judgemental way for these religious lurkers to discuss their doubts regarding their beliefs without being told why they should continue to believe.

If this should be kept in a seperate thread then we could gather up all the arguments on the validity and flaws of a religion so that these religious lurkers would have an easier time to "de-convert".

But my proposed system with this post is an anonymous sort of mentor system.

My first thought was to set up a mail account that religious gaffers can discreetly mail their doubts (much like ronito's confession thread) to but the problem with such a solution is that they'd lose out on the back-and-forth debate that have helped people to choose not to be religious here on these boards.

Which brings us to the mentor system I've devised:

_____________________________

The OMMD-system​

Open Minded Mentor/Doubter-system​

Mentors send an anonymous PM to me detailing their past experiences with the de-conversion process and get listed on a secret list of mentors if they wish to remain anonymous or they can openly volunteer to be a mentor in this thread or a new one if we go for that.

Doubters either send an anonymous PM to me and detail their particular circumstances if they so wish to so that I can then pair them up with a mentor or they can directly PM an open volunteer that will help them through with their doubts without trying to re-enforce their beliefs.
_____________________________

Publicly listed Mentors:

_____________________________

And there you have it!
I've put a lot of thought into this system and if someone think that this deserve it's own thread then feel free to copy the above for the new thread.

 

[Your Excellency]

While a reductionist view is always full of holes, let's take it even further. If we just isolate the words, then I can tell you that it is much more sinful to enjoy one over the other. I'm not even of this faith, but I can tell you that this is probably universal.

And so, if we compare 2 instrumental songs, one which istruly awe-inspiring and elevates your soul in ways that nothing else can, and one which is atrocious, then does that mean the amazing one is inherently more evil, due to the fact that Muhammad stated that the reason music was bad was because it provided the sort of enjoyment you should only be getting from Allah (assuming I remember it correctly - at the very least, it was along those lines).

And, and this is delving even further back into my memory, but I remember reading that there is in fact music in heaven. Why does that music not compete with Allah? Does heaven change your being in some way that you can no longer find happiness in things other than Allah?

 

[Your Excellency]

Oh, I had missed this religious thread:

It's no surprise that we have a lot of religious members on this board but something I've noticed lately is that there's a significant amount of people in this group that is unsure of their beliefs and that gravitate towards either religious or atheist threads - in hopes of getting their beliefs supported and their faith reaffirmed or to perhaps, subconsciously, get help admitting that they don't really believe in their chosen religion.

The reason I'm posting this is because I believe that we can take a more active role to help these people

Basically,what we need is some unbiased and non-judgemental way for these religious lurkers to discuss their doubts regarding their beliefs without being told why they should continue to believe.

If this should be kept in a seperate thread then we could gather up all the arguments on the validity and flaws of a religion so that these religious lurkers would have an easier time to "de-convert".

But my proposed system with this post is an anonymous sort of mentor system.

My first thought was to set up a mail account that religious gaffers can discreetly mail their doubts (much like ronito's confession thread) to but the problem with such a solution is that they'd lose out on the back-and-forth debate that have helped people to choose not to be religious here on these boards.

Which brings us to the mentor system I've devised:

_____________________________

The OMMD-system​

Open Minded Mentor/Doubter-system​

Mentors send an anonymous PM to me detailing their past experiences with the de-conversion process and get listed on a secret list of mentors if they wish to remain anonymous or they can openly volunteer to be a mentor in this thread or a new one if we go for that.

Doubters either send an anonymous PM to me and detail their particular circumstances if they so wish to so that I can then pair them up with a mentor or they can directly PM an open volunteer that will help them through with their doubts without trying to re-enforce their beliefs.
_____________________________

Publicly listed Mentors:

_____________________________

And there you have it!
I've put a lot of thought into this system and if someone think that this deserve it's own thread then feel free to copy the above for the new thread.

Firstly, as I have just learnt, this may not be the best place to place such an idea.

Secondly, I think the idea is poor. This PM idea creates too much intimacy, for want of a better word, and I think people prefer to see ideas out in public to see how others respond to them.

Most atheist threads have plenty of religious people in them anyway, and vice versa.

 

[Wazzim]

Firstly, as I have just learnt, this may not be the best place to place such an idea.

Secondly, I think the idea is poor. This PM idea creates too much intimacy, for want of a better word, and I think people prefer to see ideas out in public to see how others respond to them.

Most atheist threads have plenty of religious people in them anyway, and vice versa.

Yup. Besides, why do people need help to de-convert? Do we need a mentor system for people that want to get into religion too?

 

[Shanadeus]

Yup. Besides, why do people need help to de-convert? Do we need a mentor system for people that want to get into religion too?

We kinda already have that openly in the religious threads, where religious people have their beliefs reaffirmed by others.

Wasn't there like a muslim support thread made the other day?

The reason this would follow a mentor system is because a thread purely for this would be a bit too much "in your face". I don't think people would understand the need for such a thread and it's better kept hidden and done through PMs instead.

 

[crazy monkey]

Oh, I had missed this religious thread:

It's no surprise that we have a lot of religious members on this board but something I've noticed lately is that there's a significant amount of people in this group that is unsure of their beliefs and that gravitate towards either religious or atheist threads - in hopes of getting their beliefs supported and their faith reaffirmed or to perhaps, subconsciously, get help admitting that they don't really believe in their chosen religion.

The reason I'm posting this is because I believe that we can take a more active role to help these people

Basically,what we need is some unbiased and non-judgemental way for these religious lurkers to discuss their doubts regarding their beliefs without being told why they should continue to believe.

If this should be kept in a seperate thread then we could gather up all the arguments on the validity and flaws of a religion so that these religious lurkers would have an easier time to "de-convert".

But my proposed system with this post is an anonymous sort of mentor system.

My first thought was to set up a mail account that religious gaffers can discreetly mail their doubts (much like ronito's confession thread) to but the problem with such a solution is that they'd lose out on the back-and-forth debate that have helped people to choose not to be religious here on these boards.

Which brings us to the mentor system I've devised:

_____________________________

The OMMD-system​

Open Minded Mentor/Doubter-system​

Mentors send an anonymous PM to me detailing their past experiences with the de-conversion process and get listed on a secret list of mentors if they wish to remain anonymous or they can openly volunteer to be a mentor in this thread or a new one if we go for that.

Doubters either send an anonymous PM to me and detail their particular circumstances if they so wish to so that I can then pair them up with a mentor or they can directly PM an open volunteer that will help them through with their doubts without trying to re-enforce their beliefs.
_____________________________

Publicly listed Mentors:

_____________________________

And there you have it!
I've put a lot of thought into this system and if someone think that this deserve it's own thread then feel free to copy the above for the new thread.

LOL .

make atheist thread and put the shit there. you are already anon on gaf.

 

[Yasir]

I just found out that Islam forbids listening to music, having photographs, watching TV shows and films. Is this correct?

Do the muslims on this thread not do any of the above?

Found this interesting. What makes you say this btw? I actually do all the above and consider myself a practising Muslim, I strive. In terms of music, it is religious music; more like songs without (or minimal instruments, daf etc) and lyrics expressing love for God and the prophet (pbuh).

But I guess, it varies between the various sects and subsets. I choose to assign myself to a madhab: I have chosen hanafi. In terms of tariqahs, this a place I don't like to go into and usually say Sunni. But, Sufi would be mine I guess. But I have always seen sufism to be just my way of life, a spiritual way to live my life. I follow the sunnah and Quran.

Not sure if that helps

 

[Ashes]

Hmm. The point I was making was surrounding the issue as to what your opinions were as regards sinful, less sinful, and REALLY sinful music. Is all music the same? If we agree that songs about anal sex are worse in Islam than songs which express a love of Allah, then does that same heirarchy/quantification of sin apply to the enjoyment it provides?

But I wasn't aware of the no-jokey-comments nature of this thread so I'll respectfully edit my post. Thanks for letting me know, regardless.

Yeah, and taking sly digs at mod's intelligence isn't helping you jnr.

The point being stressed is that intelligent arguments are allowed and have always been allowed in any neogaf thread. You asked a question, a good question, a couple of people replied and answered; the people who believe that music is haram etc didn't come forward, and yet you continued that line of argument.

Who are you debating with?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Found this interesting. What makes you say this btw? I actually do all the above and consider myself a practising Muslim, I strive. In terms of music, it is religious music; more like songs without (or minimal instruments, daf etc) and lyrics expressing love for God and the prophet (pbuh).

But I guess, it varies between the various sects and subsets. I choose to assign myself to a madhab: I have chosen hanafi. In terms of tariqahs, this a place I don't like to go into and usually say Sunni. But, Sufi would be mine I guess. But I have always seen sufism to be just my way of life, a spiritual way to live my life. I follow the sunnah and Quran.

Not sure if that helps

I usually avoid referring to Sufis as a sect. I think it misrepresents the nature of tasawuf. Many love to condemn such groups based upon the idea that they are a sect, and referring to them in such a way adds to this.



As to music, there is not, as far as I know, a blanket prohibition on all forms of Music, rather certain instruments are forbidden. I know many very religious individuals who gather to recite poetry of that which you describe, it certainly sounds like music, but there is music and there is music

 

[RustyNails]

Oh, I had missed this religious thread:

It's no surprise that we have a lot of religious members on this board but something I've noticed lately is that there's a significant amount of people in this group that is unsure of their beliefs and that gravitate towards either religious or atheist threads - in hopes of getting their beliefs supported and their faith reaffirmed or to perhaps, subconsciously, get help admitting that they don't really believe in their chosen religion.

The reason I'm posting this is because I believe that we can take a more active role to help these people

Basically,what we need is some unbiased and non-judgemental way for these religious lurkers to discuss their doubts regarding their beliefs without being told why they should continue to believe.

If this should be kept in a seperate thread then we could gather up all the arguments on the validity and flaws of a religion so that these religious lurkers would have an easier time to "de-convert".

But my proposed system with this post is an anonymous sort of mentor system.

My first thought was to set up a mail account that religious gaffers can discreetly mail their doubts (much like ronito's confession thread) to but the problem with such a solution is that they'd lose out on the back-and-forth debate that have helped people to choose not to be religious here on these boards.

Which brings us to the mentor system I've devised:

_____________________________

The OMMD-system​

Open Minded Mentor/Doubter-system​

Mentors send an anonymous PM to me detailing their past experiences with the de-conversion process and get listed on a secret list of mentors if they wish to remain anonymous or they can openly volunteer to be a mentor in this thread or a new one if we go for that.

Doubters either send an anonymous PM to me and detail their particular circumstances if they so wish to so that I can then pair them up with a mentor or they can directly PM an open volunteer that will help them through with their doubts without trying to re-enforce their beliefs.
_____________________________

Publicly listed Mentors:

_____________________________

And there you have it!
I've put a lot of thought into this system and if someone think that this deserve it's own thread then feel free to copy the above for the new thread.

What the hell is this steaming pile of shit? GTFO

 

[Your Excellency]

The point being stressed is that intelligent arguments are allowed and have always been allowed in any neogaf thread. You asked a question, a good question, a couple of people replied and answered; the people who believe that music is haram etc didn't come forward, and yet you continued that line of argument.

Who are you debating with?

Okay. The reason it came up is because of a conversation I was having with a friend on facebook, and when she told me she doesn't do this stuff, I first wanted to find out whether it was a common thing. I've since found out it's because she's been hanging out with wahabbi muslims, who I understand are particularly strict over these matters - and presumably believe that the haddiths in question are legit rather than fake.

Anyway, she's since deleted her facebook - possibly because of the fact that there are photos of people on every page of facebook, possibly because I'm a non-mahram man who was having a lengthy private conversation with her, possibly because she's got exams, I have no idea - and I couldn't stop thinking about the music ban.

We have now had one person come forward to say that they don't listen to music other than non-instrumental god-is-great music, so there is a discussion to be had on neogaf. Okay? Calm down, dude. Stop threatening me with mods and stuff (I'm pretty sure that's a bannable offence in itself! Oh, and so is calling me 'jr'. Get it? Either we can both be assholes or we can both be cool cats; I would strongly suggest the latter.).


Anyway, now that that unpleasantness is out of the way, this is where the music ban arises, from Islam QA:

Allaah says in Soorat Luqmaan (interpretation of the meaning):

“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]

“Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari ta’leeqan, no. 5590; narrated as mawsool by al-Tabaraani and al-Bayhaqi. See al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 91).

Musical instruments are mentioned alongside things which are definitely known to be haraam, i.e., zinaa and alcohol: if they (musical instruments) were not haraam, why would they be mentioned alongside these things? (adapted from al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 1/140-141)

This hadeeth indicates that ma’aazif are haraam, and ma’aazif means musical instruments according to the scholars of (Arabic) language. This word includes all such instruments.



So the first quote there implies that music which isn't about how Allah is great, is bad. Quote two indicates that listening to musical instruments is bad. I was under the impression that a reason was given for this, but it looks like in reality it was just an imam giving his opinions as to why it was bad, with the quote "musical instruments are the wine of the soul, and what it does to the soul is worse than what intoxicating drinks do." (Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 10/417).

Any errors in this, please let me know, Islam QA isn't the easiest site to compehend - and the fact that the imams seriously answer questions such as 'Is it acceptable in Islam to eat mermaids?' makes me question whether their minds are still on this mortal plane...

 

[OttomanScribe]

Any errors in this, please let me know, Islam QA isn't the easiest site to compehend - and the fact that the imams seriously answer questions such as 'Is it acceptable in Islam to eat mermaids?' makes me question whether their minds are still on this mortal plane...

If you are looking to avoid Wahhabi fatwas, avoid IslamQ&A.

This opinion however is not a minority one, however generally it doesn't apply to all forms of music, mainly specific musical instruments. This is why you have artists who perform 'music' but avoid anything save, for example, certain drums.

Sister Zaynab Ansari Abdul-Razacq from seekersguidance.org writes re. entertainment:

One important lesson from this hadith is that one can safeguard her religion by avoiding what is doubtful. Much of popular entertainment falls into this category, while much of it is clearly unlawful. You bring up music and movies. Most scholars concur that music, in its current form, is unlawful. However, they might also point to alternatives, such as traditional Islamic nasheeds, qasa’id, na’at, and mawlids. Similarly, with movies. I cannot think of too many qualified scholars who would encourage Muslims to watch movies, although there might be some exceptions. The bigger point here is that our scholars are in agreement on the essentials of our faith. But they might disagree on cultural issues and this disagreement can be healthy. Indeed, the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, said that the disagreement of the scholars is a mercy for our community.

http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog/2010/05/20/differences-of-opinion-determining-sound-scholarship/

 

[Your Excellency]

If you are looking to avoid Wahhabi fatwas, avoid IslamQ&A.

This opinion however is not a minority one, however generally it doesn't apply to all forms of music, mainly specific musical instruments. This is why you have artists who perform 'music' but avoid anything save, for example, certain drums.

Is there any logical basis as to why the sound of a violin or piano is more 'evil' than a drum?

Is it just one of those rules that one shouldn't question?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Is there any logical basis as to why the sound of a violin or piano is more 'evil' than a drum?

Is it just one of those rules that one shouldn't question?

My understanding of the rules upon music is that it is about the ability to incite strong emotion, as well as its connection with pagan worship.

I know, for example that in some instance Caliphal authority was given to certain kinds of music for their positive effect. The primary form being marching bands in armies, though to some extend some forms of devotional music also fall under this category.

If I were to be forced to hazard a guess, a drum is far less capable of emotionally stirring people than a full piece orchestra. It can be used to give rhythm but little else. However with this we must say Allah knows best.

 

[Your Excellency]

If I were to be forced to hazard a guess, a drum is far less capable of emotionally stirring people than a full piece orchestra.

And so in turn, the question becomes: why is getting people positively emotionally stirred a bad thing? What is it that Allah does not want people to listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sRlylWy1SE&feature=related


And if 'emotionally stirring' people is haraam, then does that not also mean that fiction books should also be banned? And we're just on the tip of the iceberg here...

 

[Instigator]

And so in turn, the question becomes: why is getting people positively emotionally stirred a bad thing? What is it that Allah does not want people to listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sRlylWy1SE&feature=related


And if 'emotionally stirring' people is haraam, then does that not also mean that fiction books should also be banned? And we're just on the tip of the iceberg here...

The answer is simple. Mohammed was weird and had *drumrolls* weird, illogical hang-ups. Those got codified in a major faith and most followers to this day don't question it because they assume he spoke for God.

 

[OttomanScribe]

And so in turn, the question becomes: why is getting people positively emotionally stirred a bad thing? What is it that Allah does not want people to listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sRlylWy1SE&feature=related


And if 'emotionally stirring' people is haraam, then does that not also mean that fiction books should also be banned? And we're just on the tip of the iceberg here...

Here is the issue, what I said was that it was one of the reasons I had heard, not that 'Allah does not want you to listen to Music' or 'Allah does not want to get you emotionally stirred'.

I remember in a talk that Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller gave that he discussed it. He quoted Imam al-Ghazzali as using the breaking of musical instruments as an example of physical force used to prevent sin. The reason of this was that they cause diversion, distraction from Allah. That is what I was talking about when I said 'emotionally stirred'. In the sense that music can be a grave distraction from God.

He talks about the consensus of the madhabs being upon this, though there are a few fatwas, from Yemen and Indonesia amongst other places that contradict the consensus. However even in the context of these, the use of music was rigidly proscribed to specific circumstances, not something that fills the ears constantly.

The Sheikh says 'there is nothing that has a more direct effect on the human soul'. He quoted Schopenhauer, 'it is the most direct and pure expression of the ego'. The raiment of the music is the raiment of its source, and its source is the nafs.

Anyway, regardless of the 'reasoning' there is fairly clear scholarly consensus on it, so take that as you will.

http://www.halaltube.com/music-fiqh-and-islam

 

[Your Excellency]

Here is the issue, what I said was that it was one of the reasons I had heard, not that 'Allah does not want you to listen to Music' or 'Allah does not want to get you emotionally stirred'.

I get that. If we assume that it was THE reason, then what is the reason for that reason?

The reason [given] of this was that they cause diversion, distraction from Allah. That is what I was talking about when I said 'emotionally stirred'. In the sense that music can be a grave distraction from God.

But everything causes a diversion from Allah! Making a pizza is a distraction from Allah. Checking your emails is a diversion from Allah. Am I missing something?

The argument that listening to music is bad because it is a 'distraction' from Allah does not work, at all. There is something particular about music which makes it bad. And so...

The Sheikh says 'there is nothing that has a more direct effect on the human soul'.

Okay, so we have an answer: music is bad because it can evoke powerful positive emotions...so why does that make it bad? The rule appears to be 'if something has a really powerful positive effect on human emotions, then it is forbidden'? WHY is it forbidden? What is it about the positive effect on the human psyche that Muhammad didn't like? And furthermore, doesn't that mean that Beethoven's Allegreto is more haraam than Black's Friday? One is music that speaks to the human soul through it's beauty, and the other perhaps inspires 'fitnah' and 'zina' (means temptation and sexual sin, I think). Both are sinful, but if Allegreto gets to the core, fundamental reason why musical instruments were haraam, then doesn't that make it far, far worse?*

Anyway, regardless of the 'reasoning' there is fairly clear scholarly consensus on it, so take that as you will.

I agree with this. I think the question of the reasoning is the most interesting part. I'd imagine for muslims, knowing why Muhammad said that musical instruments is bad would be a better way of understanding what Muhammad was all about.


* This is based on the reasonable presumption that Rebecca Black's Friday does not inspire the human soul in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Your Excellency]

The answer is simple. Mohammed was weird and had *drumrolls* weird, illogical hang-ups. Those got codified in a major faith and most followers to this day don't question it because they assume he spoke for God.

I think they should question these 'hang-ups'*. They believe he spoke for God, and so God told him that certain things were bad. For some of the rules, it's clear why they are there: murdering your parents, for example. However, for others, it's a little more confusing: eg no drawing pictures of people, no music, etc etc.


I think delving into the reason for these things being banned will allow both muslims and atheists alike to learn more about what goes on in Allah's head. If the reason for banning murder is His compassion, then what is the reason for banning music?




* Assuming they're not one of the muslims who think that all or these particular Hadiths are a load of rubbish and not representative of what Muhammad said or did.

 

[Ashes]

We have now had one person come forward to say that they don't listen to music other than non-instrumental god-is-great music, so there is a discussion to be had on neogaf. Okay? Calm down, dude. Stop threatening me with mods and stuff (I'm pretty sure that's a bannable offence in itself! Oh, and so is calling me 'jr'. Get it? Either we can both be assholes or we can both be cool cats; I would strongly suggest the latter.).

You *are* a jnr jnr. And you were acting in an idiotic fashion in a thread that is a trollfest; it's just common sense that the mods clear out the rubbish. There's one on every page.

And I was only looking out for ya, cause of your involvement in the political thread; And no, I wasn't threatening you; you help out jnrs cause with jnrs it's one strike and out. Permanently. But if you want me to look the other way, then so be it.

And no I'm not agitated; I speak slowly in real life, so perhaps you betray your own position.

Now that you have clarified your position; it'll be interesting to follow the conversation.

 

[Darackutny]

If you are looking to avoid Wahhabi fatwas, avoid IslamQ&A.

Ugh... Sorry for butting in, but I think it should be noted that there is no such as "Wahhabi" fiqh, and that there ideology is pretty much separate from their fiqhi rulings. That, and a large portion of them adhere to certain fiqhi sects like Hanbalis and Shafi'is.

 

[Your Excellency]

Oh and we know that Muhammad wasn't a fan of cartoon characters - but has anyone figured out any logical reasons as to why?

If an imam follows every rule on Islam QA but then draws a picture of Scooby Doo, exactly why is Allah annoyed about that?

 

[OttomanScribe]

I get that. If we assume that it was THE reason, then what is the reason for that reason?

The point is that we cannot assume that it is the reason. It is merely one possible one.

But everything causes a diversion from Allah! Making a pizza is a distraction from Allah. Checking your emails is a diversion from Allah. Am I missing something?

Yes. Such actions do not constitute a diversion from the worship of God. One can make the intention that such things are committed for the sake of Allah, one may make food while making remembrance of God, with the intention that the food be beneficial to oneself and those one serves the food to. One can check emails with the intention that they be for the fulfilment of one's work and therefore provision, or with the intent to keep up with friends.

The goal of the believer is to take even profane actions and make them sacred. All halal actions can be performed with a state of remembrance of God.

The argument that listening to music is bad because it is a 'distraction' from Allah does not work, at all.

That is your assertion, made without taking into account the above. Thus I disagree. You make that assertion based in the idea that Music is no different from any other action, and any other action is a distraction from God. This assumes that a state of distraction is anything save sitting in a room by oneself in worship. This is however not the case, so your point does not work.

Okay, so we have an answer: music is bad because it can evoke powerful positive emotions...so why does that make it bad? The rule appears to be 'if something has a really powerful positive effect on human emotions, then it is forbidden'? WHY is it forbidden? What is it about the positive effect on the human psyche that Muhammad didn't like? And furthermore, doesn't that mean that Beethoven's Allegreto is more haraam than Black's Friday? One is music that speaks to the human soul through it's beauty, and the other perhaps inspires 'fitnah' and 'zina' (means temptation and sexual sin, I think). Both are sinful, but if Allegreto gets to the core, fundamental reason why musical instruments were haraam, then doesn't that make it far, far worse?*

What makes you assert that the emotions invoked by music are inherently positive? That is an assertion that you put forth but not explain. Saying 'if something has a powerful positive effect on human emotions, then it is forbidden' requires one to answer while accepting the argument that there exists a 'powerful positive effect'.

I do not accept that the effect is inherently positive. Though as you say 'it speaks to the human soul', but its source is the nafs (base soul) of another. Would you say that most Music is Beethoven? Or most music is Friday? Would you be able to set out a set of distinguishable points for me that draws a distinction between the two?

I agree with this. I think the question of the reasoning is the most interesting part. I'd imagine for muslims, knowing why Muhammad said that musical instruments is bad would be a better way of understanding what Muhammad was all about.

In this case it just comes to us blowing our own horns. In the end this is just conjecture. One part of the life of a Muslim is sometimes accepting that some of the prohibitions that we are faced with are based upon what is good for us, even if we do not know why.

I think delving into the reason for these things being banned will allow both muslims and atheists alike to learn more about what goes on in Allah's head. If the reason for banning murder is His compassion, then what is the reason for banning music?

No Muslim is looking for such anthropomorphism as trying to 'learn more about what goes on in Allah's head'.

Ugh... Sorry for butting in, but I think it should be noted that there is no such as "Wahhabi" fiqh, and that there ideology is pretty much separate from their fiqhi rulings. That, and a large portion of them adhere to certain fiqhi sects like Hanbalis and Shafi'is.

This has no been my experience of them. Generalising of course but at most they seem to follow some strange form of 'neo-Hanbali' methodology. Their fiqh is set apart by often being completely removed from the Traditional system of Islamic qualifications, the chains of scholarly transmission.

The individual Wahhabis who I have interacted with on the whole have little clear methodology in their fiqh, beyond a broad literalism that goes beyond the distrust of a scholars independent reasoning of the Hanbali school.

Oh and we know that Muhammad wasn't a fan of cartoon characters - but has anyone figured out any logical reasons as to why?

One of the reasons put forth for the prohibition on images is their links with pagan practices. The kind of art that people create is very often linked to problematic beliefs and practices. Maybe not in all cases, but as an eventual conclusion.

Of course the core of this is that while we may understand broadly possible reasons for rulings in the Sha'riah, things like the Zakat (arms levy) have very obvious functions. Fundamentally one follows such things because they are the will of God. If you seek to understand God as an atheist (which I do not know for certain that you are) then you are on some level pursuing a fraught endeavour. The understanding that a Muslim gets of Allah is through worship, not through examining the Sha'riah to look for 'God's mind'.

In this sense my understanding of the prohibition against music comes from points in my life as a Muslim where I have felt religiously engaged, where hearing Music at all was like a horrible assault on the senses and a grave cause of disruption for my own worship of Allah. This is not always the case, as I am not always as I have been at points, but generally, were one to have such a state as a permanency, I understand the prohibition.

 

[RustyNails]

Oh and we know that Muhammad wasn't a fan of cartoon characters - but has anyone figured out any logical reasons as to why?

If an imam follows every rule on Islam QA but then draws a picture of Scooby Doo, exactly why is Allah annoyed about that?

You have now gone from stealth troll to full troll. Good skating, junior.

 

[Marleyman]

When it comes to the radicalized element of Islam I always wonder what Islamists who don't adhere to said element can do to combat it? The consequences of speaking out against the radical sects seems to be death and radicals seem to not fear death. So to all moderates, how do you fight back against radicalization? Thanks.

 

[OttomanScribe]

When it comes to the radicalized element of Islam I always wonder what Islamists who don't adhere to said element can do to combat it? The consequences of speaking out against the radical sects seems to be death and radicals seem to not fear death. So to all moderates, how do you fight back against radicalization? Thanks.

Educate them/wait for the return of the Khilafa

Seriously, I think that the causes of extremism are a combination of political motivations and ignorance of the Sha'riah. The way to combat this is to work towards solutions to those political problems and work to educate the ignorant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGnXy_PQUno

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I wanted to pose a philosophical question in regards to the reason of creation. The fundamental reason for the creation of mankind was to obey God and the giving of free will, best illustrated in the story of the Garden of Eden, allows us the capacity to choose our own path and whether or not we worship God as commanded.

Aside from being all-powerful, God is also omniscient and through Biblical accounts that pre-date Christianity, we see Him speak of his design. But this also inevitably means that God knew of all events, acts and thoughts that would occur every second of existence from before He made even light. This means He knew of the choices we'd make and therefore our fate - this before our inception.

Furthermore, if we focus on the design - we recognise every event, certainly the significant ones, as acts of Gods. If X had an experience that drew him towards spirituality, we praise God for showing X this path. However, if Y loses their entire family in an emotionally horrific manner and as a consequence loses faith in God, then those events were not only also designed by God but as He is omniscient, He knew of the impact it would have. So can't it be said that God is not only aware of the end-result, but also able to choose who worships him and who does not?

 

[Ashes]

I guess this implies that the logic in question is correct. How for example do you imagine things to have been known before they are known to happen? of course it is a paper scenario, and we can imagine it, but in the real world, how does it happen?

I think if that concept can be illustrated the question can perhaps be illustrated, and followers may then be closer to answering that question. I think you imply an understanding of the game, merely through rules. Am I making sense?

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I guess this implies that the logic in question is correct. How for example do you imagine things to have been known before they are known to happen? of course it is a paper scenario, and we can imagine it, but in the real world, how does it happen?

I think if that concept can be illustrated the question can perhaps be illustrated, and followers may then be closer to answering that question. I think you imply an understanding of the game, merely through rules. Am I making sense?

Sadly, I didn't understand any of that.

 

[Ashes]

Sadly, I didn't understand any of that.

I'm just suggesting that if god exists, then you have to apply this model in the real world. Like we have to stop saying it rains, cause god made the rain fall. How did the rain fall?

Understand weather systems and you can understand how rain falls. One illuminates light onto the other.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I wanted to pose a philosophical question in regards to the reason of creation. The fundamental reason for the creation of mankind was to obey God and the giving of free will, best illustrated in the story of the Garden of Eden, allows us the capacity to choose our own path and whether or not we worship God as commanded.

Aside from being all-powerful, God is also omniscient and through Biblical accounts that pre-date Christianity, we see Him speak of his design. But this also inevitably means that God knew of all events, acts and thoughts that would occur every second of existence from before He made even light. This means He knew of the choices we'd make and therefore our fate - this before our inception.

Furthermore, if we focus on the design - we recognise every event, certainly the significant ones, as acts of Gods. If X had an experience that drew him towards spirituality, we praise God for showing X this path. However, if Y loses their entire family in an emotionally horrific manner and as a consequence loses faith in God, then those events were not only also designed by God but as He is omniscient, He knew of the impact it would have. So can't it be said that God is not only aware of the end-result, but also able to choose who worships him and who does not?

All creation is a manifestation and a reflection of the attributes of Allah. Whoever is guided to the straight path, none can misguide, whoever is misguided, none can bring back.

Some of us will bask in reflections of Allah's name 'Al-Rahmen' (the Most Merciful), others will find themselves reflecting 'Al-Khafid' (the Abaser).

As my Sheikh once said 'you cannot think of Allah as some fluffy thing you can put in your pocket and call your friend, the same God whose Mercy will be overwhelming on the day of Judgement is the One who causes mass extinction events. Take refuge in God, from God, take refuge with the Creator of the storm'.

As individuals, we know that some people are destined for the fire, and others for Jannah, but we also don't know whom of those we are. So in a real sense it is of no consequence to how we act.

 

[CaLe]

All creation is a manifestation and a reflection of the attributes of Allah. Whoever is guided to the straight path, none can misguide, whoever is misguided, none can bring back.

Some of us will bask in reflections of Allah's name 'Al-Rahmen' (the Most Merciful), others will find themselves reflecting 'Al-Khafid' (the Abaser).

As my Sheikh once said 'you cannot think of Allah as some fluffy thing you can put in your pocket and call your friend, the same God whose Mercy will be overwhelming on the day of Judgement is the One who causes mass extinction events. Take refuge in God, from God, take refuge with the Creator of the storm'.

As individuals, we know that some people are destined for the fire, and others for Jannah, but we also don't know whom of those we are. So in a real sense it is of no consequence to how we act.

So we have no control over our lives ?

 

[Ashes]

So we have no control over our lives ?

I don't think that is the correct reading of what he said or at least implied.

 

[CaLe]

I don't think that is the correct reading of what he said or at least implied.

Well, if some are destined for Heaven and others for Hell, what is even the point of living ?

I'm genuinely asking, I always wondered about that.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Well, if some are destined for Heaven and others for Hell, what is even the point of living ?

I'm genuinely asking, I always wondered about that.

If we don't know to which path we are destined, we MUST operate upon the assumption that our actions have impact upon our future. This is arguably the case regardless.

One of the many argued logical conclusions of empiricism is that, if everything can theoretically be observed and predictions and laws deduced and concluded, then free will does not exist. Though the existence of truly random things arguably is a spanner to this, in general, if you have that understanding, does it cause you to abandon your life?

If you are an atheist for example, and do not believe in an afterlife (apparently you can be an atheist and believe in heaven), and you are an empiricist, then do you throw in the towel because everything, including the towel throwing is arguably pre-determined? No, because unless you actually know the future, which you don't, it makes no difference to you, in fact even if you did know the future, that in itself would arguably cause the future to change.

You quoted me saying 'so in real sense it has no consequence to how we act', not 'so in a real sense it is of no consequence how we act', the two are very different things.

 

[CaLe]

If we don't know to which path we are destined, we MUST operate upon the assumption that our actions have impact upon our future. This is arguably the case regardless.

One of the many argued logical conclusions of empiricism is that, if everything can theoretically be observed and predictions and laws deduced and concluded, then free will does not exist. Though the existence of truly random things arguably is a spanner to this, in general, if you have that understanding, does it cause you to abandon your life?

If you are an atheist for example, and do not believe in an afterlife (apparently you can be an atheist and believe in heaven), and you are an empiricist, then do you throw in the towel because everything, including the towel throwing is arguably pre-determined? No, because unless you actually know the future, which you don't, it makes no difference to you, in fact even if you did know the future, that in itself would arguably cause the future to change.

You quoted me saying 'so in real sense it has no consequence to how we act', not 'so in a real sense it is of no consequence how we act', the two are very different things.

Thanks for your reply, I believe I understand better what you are trying to say.

One point though : If I am destined for Heaven or Hell, of course I won't stop living, but I will do so knowing that my actions are pointless since the end result will be the same.

Will it cause me to do bad things (if I was destined for Hell, for example) ? No. Will it have an impact on my life ? Yes, probably.

Furthermore, if knowing the future would cause the future to change, that in itself means that I have an impact on my life, which in itself also means that we can't be destined to either Heaven or Hell, unless the sum of all our decisions are already known by God.

In which case, we go back to the hypothesis that I have no ultimate control on my destiny and that I was born to either go to Heaven or Hell, since all our actions are predetermined.

It's all really complicated, and I believe that in the Qu'ran God said not to think too much about it and that we shall just live our lives like our ancestors did.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Thanks for your reply, I believe I understand better what you are trying to say.

One point though : If I am destined for Heaven or Hell, of course I won't stop living, but I will do so knowing that my actions are pointless since the end result will be the same.

Will it cause me to do bad things (if I was destined for Hell, for example) ? No. Will it have an impact on my life ? Yes, probably.

Furthermore, if knowing the future would cause the future to change, that in itself means that I have an impact on my life, which in itself also means that we can't be destined to either Heaven or Hell, unless the sum of all our decisions are already known by God.

In which case, we go back to the hypothesis that I have no ultimate control on my destiny and that I was born to either go to Heaven or Hell, since all our actions are predetermined.

It's all really complicated, and I believe that in the Qu'ran God said not to think too much about it and that we shall just live our lives like our ancestors did.

The assumption isn't that your actions are pointless at all. Your actions are still the mechanism for God's mercy or judgement. The idea that there are people of the fire and people of the fruit, and that I am uncertain of which I am, I take as a reason to be more adamant in faith and practice.

You are right in saying that one should not think about these things to much as they are grounds, as Al Ghazzali said 'where feet slip', but such a thing doesn't fly with non-Muslims lol.

 

[Ashes]

hmm... a coin will land heads or tails. Chance says 50/50. God A (the model of god in question) would know the outcome, so can if you want, tell you the sequence order for the next million times. That doesn't mean in this world, that the chance has changed from 50/50.

 

[CaLe]

Thank you both, I believe I have a better understanding now.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Thank you both, I believe I have a better understanding now.

No probs I have to note that this is just my understanding on it. I am certainly quite fallible in such things, I am sure there are others that would disagree with my understandings.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Lol.. Sheikh Chuck Norris represent

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/04/koran-scholar-chuck-norris-warns-against-creeping-sharia?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Motherjones%2Fmojoblog+%28MotherJones.com+|+MoJoBlog%29

 

[Ashes]

No probs I have to note that this is just my understanding on it. I am certainly quite fallible in such things, I am sure there are others that would disagree with my understandings.

Well on that note, I'd have to say the coin thing is not my idea and pass the baton onto someone else. It's best practise sometimes to find flaws and critique most things.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

I was having a conversation with ottomanscribe the other day, and I was directed here. Now, I can't actually remember what we were discussing, so I might just throw some things out there.

Some of these were questions directed at Christian GAF, but some may still apply.

1: What evidence (if any) persuaded you that there was an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent (if your God isn't these things, can you describe his/its properties) creator?

2: What evidence (if any) could be presented that would change your mind about this creators existence?

3: Is evolution a product of God or purely a natural process? Does evolutionary theory ring true for you as a theist, and if so, where does God fit in with this theory?

4: What is your concept of hell? Is it the traditional 'fire and brimstone' realm of torment, or the eternal absence from God's grace? In either case, what circumstances would cause someone to end up in this place?

5: How are God's moral laws expressed? Is there a general list of moral guidelines that you follow? How do you know that these are the pinnacle of morality?

Cheers.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I was having a conversation with ottomanscribe the other day, and I was directed here. Now, I can't actually remember what we were discussing, so I might just throw some things out there.

Some of these were questions directed at Christian GAF, but some may still apply.

1: What evidence (if any) persuaded you that there was an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent (if your God isn't these things, can you describe his/its properties) creator?

My understanding came not from empirical thought, but rather from rationalism. My belief in God is a rational understanding, rather than an empirical one. I believe in God because it is logical, not because of any understanding gained through experiment. I came to an understanding of the existence of God before I became Muslim, then found that the idea I had of God is what is described in the Qur'an and in the understandings of the Muslims. I read of the Prophet sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam and thought him to be no liar.

Since becoming Muslim, I have had experiences of God, these are not evidences for others, but evidences for myself that give Ikhlas (certainty) to me.

2: What evidence (if any) could be presented that would change your mind about this creators existence?

As my understandings came not through evidence, their refutation would require a rational rather than an empirical challenge.

3: Is evolution a product of God or purely a natural process? Does evolutionary theory ring true for you as a theist, and if so, where does God fit in with this theory?

I believe that there is no such thing as a 'natural process', all things, cause, effect, the 'laws' of the structure of the universe, all are in a constant state of creation by God.

4: What is your concept of hell? Is it the traditional 'fire and brimstone' realm of torment, or the eternal absence from God's grace? In either case, what circumstances would cause someone to end up in this place?

I believe that any real understanding of Hell is impossible, both the metaphors of the fruit and the fire are valid, as are those more esoteric understandings around 'one turning away from Allah, and Allah turning away from one in turn'. I believe that most Muslims will taste of the fire. In order to be destined for it, one needs to be in a position to reject worship of God, in whatever form of revelation one is exposed to, be it in the Seal of the Prophets (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) or those who came before Him. One cannot know their fate in this respect.

5: How are God's moral laws expressed? Is there a general list of moral guidelines that you follow? How do you know that these are the pinnacle of morality?

The word 'Sha'riah' linguistically describes a path used by the Bedouin to find water in the desert. The Sha'riah is the path used by the Muslims to reach salvation, within it are all manner of guidelines, for the law, for society, for individual conduct and morality.

These are based upon the outline and example provided by the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) and the other Messengers and Prophets (alayhis salaam). I know that these are the pinnacles of morality both because they are sanctified by God, and because I believe them to be so through my own independent look at the morality of the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) before I was a Muslim.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

My understanding came not from empirical thought, but rather from rationalism. My belief in God is a rational understanding, rather than an empirical one. I believe in God because it is logical, not because of any understanding gained through experiment. I came to an understanding of the existence of God before I became Muslim, then found that the idea I had of God is what is described in the Qur'an and in the understandings of the Muslims. I read of the Prophet sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam and thought him to be no liar.

Since becoming Muslim, I have had experiences of God, these are not evidences for others, but evidences for myself that give Ikhlas (certainty) to me.


As my understandings came not through evidence, their refutation would require a rational rather than an empirical challenge.


I believe that there is no such thing as a 'natural process', all things, cause, effect, the 'laws' of the structure of the universe, all are in a constant state of creation by God.


I believe that any real understanding of Hell is impossible, both the metaphors of the fruit and the fire are valid, as are those more esoteric understandings around 'one turning away from Allah, and Allah turning away from one in turn'. I believe that most Muslims will taste of the fire. In order to be destined for it, one needs to be in a position to reject worship of God, in whatever form of revelation one is exposed to, be it in the Seal of the Prophets (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) or those who came before Him. One cannot know their fate in this respect.


The word 'Sha'riah' linguistically describes a path used by the Bedouin to find water in the desert. The Sha'riah is the path used by the Muslims to reach salvation, within it are all manner of guidelines, for the law, for society, for individual conduct and morality.

These are based upon the outline and example provided by the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) and the other Messengers and Prophets (alayhis salaam). I know that these are the pinnacles of morality both because they are sanctified by God, and because I believe them to be so through my own independent look at the morality of the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) before I was a Muslim.

It would be great to get a rational argument for the existence of God, could you please detail the explicit steps for this logical argument. By your first paragraph though, you seem to be hinting at an 'interpretation of God' based on the Qur'an, not from your logical argument, but from you thinking the prophet couldn't be a liar.

Personal experience may be justification for belief for you, but could you describe how this personal experience manifests (unless this is something too personal for you to share)? How did you determine that it was God?

At least you are open to changing your beliefs, that is more than most people.

In relation to hell, I'm not sure I fully understand. You seem to be saying that those exposed to Islam, yet reject it, are the only ones going to hell? Did I interpret this the wrong way? How about heaven?

Is there any way in which you could detail these moral laws/codes, so that an outside observer could deem them worthy of worship?

 

[Prine]

I just bought this for my Kindle app, anyone read it?

Recommended by friend who admire greatly. Lots of great words about Karen Armstrong too.

 

[OttomanScribe]

It would be great to get a rational argument for the existence of God, could you please detail the explicit steps for this logical argument. By your first paragraph though, you seem to be hinting at an 'interpretation of God' based on the Qur'an, not from your logical argument, but from you thinking the prophet couldn't be a liar.

My understanding is that the most logical source for all that I perceive is something 'causal, uncaused', a grand exception to the general rule. This is what I name God. This is the God described in the Qur'an, with attributes that relate to and give meaning to the things that I observe as being attributes of creation. My acceptance of God is thus on three levels, belief in the concept of God, belief that this is best described in the Revlation given to Mohammed ibn Abdullah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) and that he did not lie when he said it was revelation and finally my own experiences as follows.

Personal experience may be justification for belief for you, but could you describe how this personal experience manifests (unless this is something too personal for you to share)? How did you determine that it was God?

It is not that it would be too personal to share as much as it is very difficult to describe, both in the sense that a non-Muslim will find it hard to comprehend (as I would have) and that it was an... extraordinary experience. It was through the practice of Tasawuf, which is the mystical science of Islam (coming out as 'one of those' in this thread lol).

As to how I determined it was God, I didn't conduct a peer reviewed triple blinded trial it was simply made clear to me in a way that was beyond denial, a feeling of certainty that defies description. Sure that is a bit hazy for others to accept, but I don't require that of them.

At least you are open to changing your beliefs, that is more than most people.

There needs to be a choice, at least from my perspective, were it something self evident, there would not be a single kafir on earth.

In relation to hell, I'm not sure I fully understand. You seem to be saying that those exposed to Islam, yet reject it, are the only ones going to hell? Did I interpret this the wrong way? How about heaven?

I am saying that it is in the hands of God, none are saved except through His Mercy. If one seeks an understanding of what constitutes a kafir (one who rejects) then the best description according to the scholars is one who is in a position to call the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) a liar. It is also understood that revelation has come to all peoples, and those who know not are judged according to what is revealed to them or what remains of such revelation.

It is said that many Muslims will also taste hell, as a means of burning off their sin before entry to the Garden. Hell is not necessarily eternal for all people.

Is there any way in which you could detail these moral laws/codes, so that an outside observer could deem them worthy of worship?

The moral laws or codes are not worshipped in and of themselves, they are a means of worship. It is not realistic to compress the Sha'riah, I have a bookcase full of books on the subject and they would not even begin to get the entirety of it. If one has to look to the core, there are the five pillars;

Shahadah: Testification of faith, one testifies belief in the core tenets of Islam, belief in One God, belief in the Messenger (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) etc.

Salat: Prayer, the praying of the obligatory prayers, defined through the way which the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) prayed, and as he commanded 'pray as you see me pray'.

Hajj: the pilgrimage to Mecca is an obligation upon all Muslims of age who can afford it.

Zakat: the arms levy, one is to give a percentage of his income to the poor, either in his family, in his community, or the community of others, in that order, if they are capable of doing so.

Sawm: fasting, one must fast the month of Ramadan, within the ascribed limits, from before dusk til the setting of the sun, as a means to instil humility, to create focus in worship, to create solidarity with the poor and to build faith for the rest of the year.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I just bought this for my Kindle app, anyone read it?

Recommended by friend who admire greatly. Lots of great words about Karen Armstrong too.

I have read it, it is decent for something written by a non-Muslim, one Malaysian imam said of Karen Armstrong that were she alive at the time she would have desired to be the 14th wife of the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) such is the love she has come to have for him.

I can't comment on that, but I think she does well for one outside the tradition. My favourite Seerah is that of Martin Lings

 

[Prine]

I have read it, it is decent for something written by a non-Muslim, one Malaysian imam said of Karen Armstrong that were she alive at the time she would have desired to be the 14th wife of the Messenger of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) such is the love she has come to have for him.

I can't comment on that, but I think she does well for one outside the tradition. My favourite Seerah is that of Martin Lings

Mighty nod there, looking forward to reading it. Any other you may recommend? I tend to prefer reading material from people outside the faith who show objectivity with their assessment. But if you have any books especially about islamic history please do share!