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[Sutton Dagger]

I did not say that it makes the position invalid, I believe that the both are logical propositions. Maybe I didn't make it clear in my previous posts, I believe that both the existence or non-existence of God are logical propositions, for belief must be a choice. What I am showing is that belief in God is not illogical, and is therefore something one can believe.


I feel I have already done this and we are now going back over ground already trodden.

Remember when I said that it was possible to hold the position of Deism and you were unsure I what I was suggesting, well it's in your own reply. You haven't shown the logical argument that correlates to your conclusion, you have tried to demonstrate A=C but you have left out A=B and B=C in order to logically get there.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Remember when I said that it was possible to hold the position of Deism and you were unsure I what I was suggesting, well it's in your own reply. You haven't shown the logical argument that correlates to your conclusion, you have tried to demonstrate A=C but you have left out A=B and B=C in order to logically get there.

You asked why this leads to the Islamic concept of God, and I explained why I believed it to be so.

The Islamic concept of Tawhid is not of some old man in the sky. It is of the uncreated divine reality, that is the source of all contingent things. Everything is contingent to God.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

You asked why this leads to the Islamic concept of God, and I explained why I believed it to be so.

The Islamic concept of Tawhid is not of some old man in the sky. It is of the uncreated divine reality, that is the source of all contingent things. Everything is contingent to God.

Your previous explanations amount to 'I don't believe he would lie' (speaking of the Prophet), I was hoping for something with a little more... logic. It seems that this discussion is coming to an end though, and I leave a little disappointed that we haven't come to an agreeable conclusion.

After reading your posts in various threads, you have much more invested in your beliefs than I, so I will leave this for now. Hopefully it's on good terms (and I have not caused too much unintentional offence) and we can continue to debate on various topics in the future (including the Burqa ban, which I generally support you on). Cheers.

 

[bigboss370]

There are three questions here. I know people who don't show pictures of themselves on facebook because they don't have pictures taken of themselves in general, as they hold this to be impermissable (making an image). This is a position held by some scholars, though a minority.

The second question is about veiling, and you ask for what 'Islam' says on the issue. In this sense it is very difficult to describe what 'Islam' says, as the religion is not a monolith, one cannot go and ask 'Islam' what the position is on this matter.

The scholarly consensus is that both women and men have 'awrah' (private parts) of which they cannot show to anyone. What counts as 'awrah' depends on this person that the individual is with. For example amongst woman, a woman is able to show everything above her navel and bellow her knees.

The scholarly condition however differs on what counts as a woman's 'awrah' in the presence of unrelated men. Some say that everything except the eyes needs to be covered. Others hold that everything except the face and hands is awrah.

The third question is not one that you ask, but rather one that I ask. If she does not wish to post pictures of herself, why do you wish to change her mind? If it is part of her religion, and is harming no one, on what grounds would you seek her to go against what she believes is moral?

i dont really understand by what you mean islam is not a monolith or whatever. i thought islam was clear on the matter of what a woman can and cannot show in public, or is this a subject of interpretation and debate?
as for your third question, i am not trying to 'force' her to put pictures of herself on fb, and i fully respect her decision. i just wanted to know, based on her religion, if her stance on the matter is valid. because she recently had pictures of herself on there, but later removed them; its not like shez always believed in no pictures.
i believe that she can at least post pictures of her eyes, but she says she cannot since eyes are a sign of beauty...is she correct? does it go against islam to post pictures of oneself on facebook for everyone to see, even if they are covered?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Your previous explanations amount to 'I don't believe he would lie' (speaking of the Prophet), I was hoping for something with a little more... logic. It seems that this discussion is coming to an end though, and I leave a little disappointed that we haven't come to an agreeable conclusion.

After reading your posts in various threads, you have much more invested in your beliefs than I, so I will leave this for now. Hopefully it's on good terms (and I have not caused too much unintentional offence) and we can continue to debate on various topics in the future (including the Burqa ban, which I generally support you on). Cheers.

What Islam shares with deism is the rejection of an anthropomorphic God. However in Islamic thought, God has 'names and attributes' that relate to the world, and this is the means through which the Muslim gains an understanding of God in relation to themselves.

To be more clear, this is what I understand as some of the way that God is:

He is living, capable, overwhelming and irresistible. Neither deficiency nor incapacity affects Him. He neither tires nor sleeps. Neither cessation nor death affects Him ... Nothing escapes His grasp. Nothing of the arranging of the affairs of creation is outside of His authority. That which is under His authority and in His knowledge can not be properly numbered.

He is fully cognisant of the whole of creation; fully encompassing all that transpires from the lowest place on Earth to the furthest extent of the Heavens. Nothing on Earth nor in the Universe to the degree of a particle escapes His knowledge ... He is cognisant of the movement of the particles in the air. He knows that which is secret and hidden, aware of the thoughts found in hearts and the movement of thoughts and hidden reflections with an eternal and pre-existent knowledge, He does not seek to be characterised with this knowledge which is not renewed in occurring in His essence by an indwelling or movement.

He wills everything. He is the arranger of all contingent existences. There is nothing either small nor great in quantity found in the earthly or heavenly realms, small or large, good or evil, beneficial or harmful, of belief or denial, known or unknown, of joy or sadness, increase or decrease, obedience or rebellion, except that it runs by His decree and determining. What He wills is, and what He does not will is not ...

His will self-subsits by His essence in all His qualities, it is impossible for Him to be described other than this. He is willing from pre-eternality bringing things into existence at the temporal moment when they are to exist of which He has measured and determined, so He brings them into existence as He willed from pre-eternality (knowing that God is outside time, hence such usage as pre-eternality has no 'real' meaning) without advancing their time nor delaying it, but instead they exist in accordance to His knowledge and will withouttheir occurring alteration or change within Him.

That is from a description of the attributes of God, taken from the writing of the great scholar of Islam creed Imam Al Ghazzali (1058-1111). I also believe that it is the only logical way to describe such a thing that is causal without cause. If all things are caused by that thing, that paradigm we name God, then all the above logically follows.

As to good terms, you have certainly said nothing to offend me I hope that the same is true of me

 

[OttomanScribe]

i dont really understand by what you mean islam is not a monolith or whatever. i thought islam was clear on the matter of what a woman can and cannot show in public, or is this a subject of interpretation and debate?

I think I adequately described the difference in scholarly opinion in my reply to you. Some hold that it is impermissible for a woman have her face uncovered in public, others say that the face is permissible.

as for your third question, i am not trying to 'force' her to put pictures of herself on fb, and i fully respect her decision. i just wanted to know, based on her religion, if her stance on the matter is valid. because she recently had pictures of herself on there, but later removed them; its not like shez always believed in no pictures.
i believe that she can at least post pictures of her eyes, but she says she cannot since eyes are a sign of beauty...is she correct? does it go against islam to post pictures of oneself on facebook for everyone to see, even if they are covered?

If she feels that she does not want to show her eyes, for fear that they cause disruption amongst others, then that is her right. It may not be that she holds it as being impermissible so much as it is that she does not wish to do so out of faith. In this respect, her stance is certainly valid.

 

[Prine]

Ottomon, quick question. If say i haven't read the Quran under the guidance of a teacher, is it acceptable for me to read it on my own ? In my community we're generally told we need to read under the supervision of skilled readers, as our pronunciation of Arabic is extremely important.

Thanks.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Ottomon, quick question. If say i haven't read the Quran under the guidance of a teacher, is it acceptable for me to read it on my own?

Thanks.

I am not a Sheikh, but I can say what I do. I read the Qur'an as a source of faith and a guide. However I do not attempt to get my law from it. This is especially true when it comes to translations. I would never recommend someone not reading it on their own, but if you draw conclusions from it, seeking guidance from a scholar is certainly advisable. As we are commanded 'ask one who knows'.

That said, one has not truly read from the Qur'an until they have sat in a tafsir class. I remember we spent 4 weeks, 4 hours Saturday, 4 hours Sunday, just on Surah Ikhlas

 

[Prine]

I am not a Sheikh, but I can say what I do. I read the Qur'an as a source of faith and a guide. However I do not attempt to get my law from it. This is especially true when it comes to translations. I would never recommend someone not reading it on their own, but if you draw conclusions from it, seeking guidance from a scholar is certainly advisable. As we are commanded 'ask one who knows'.

That said, one has not truly read from the Qur'an until they have sat in a tafsir class. I remember we spent 4 weeks, 4 hours Saturday, 4 hours Sunday, just on Surah Ikhlas

Thanks, and of course, we've always been told not to draw any literal meaning from the Quran and always seek guidance from experts. The arabic used is in a form thats extremely sophisticated (not spoken anymore), so i shouldn't attempt to draw my own conclusions. Most likely to be off.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I went to this lecture last night and found it of great benefit. Thought I would share it with any Muslims (or non-Muslims) who are interested.

The Sheikh was making his talk in the context of a discussion of Muslim psychology, with special emphasis on things like self-esteem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Npq3CVTaFM&feature=feedu

The second was an answer to a question by a sister basically asking 'why are there no good brothers out there to marry'.

http://www.youtube.com/user/artsab0tage#p/u/6/fAdqnnobL-M

He also shared some great quotes.

'A person whose youth passes over them, and they don't learn, recite 4 takbirs over them, for they are dead!' - Imam Shafi'i

He also quoted the hadith 'It is a more grave thing to God to hurt the feelings of a believer than were the Kaaba to be dismantled brick by brick'.

From the video: 'we almost got into a car accident the other night, and one of the brothers was like 'La Ilaha ill-Allah!', the other brother was like 'Woah!' and the third swore in Spanish'

 

[Zapages]

the ultimate Islamic wedding video: The production value is really up there. O_O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0lHXququhY

 

[OttomanScribe]

the ultimate Islamic wedding video: The production value is really up there. O_O

For my wedding, my father in law hired an uncle to do the video of the Gaye Holoud (a Bengali thing) and the Walimah, and the video was HILARIOUS. It was like 2001: a Wedding odyssey. It was full of random zooms onto nothing. Windows sounds. He played music over my dad's speech and then spent 5 full minutes of recording on a random conversation between me and a friend. It was epically bad.

This was awesome though, the video we played at my wedding, nerd jokes ftw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLV3bGnpU2Q

 

[Zapages]

For my wedding, my father in law hired an uncle to do the video of the Gaye Holoud (a Bengali thing) and the Walimah, and the video was HILARIOUS. It was like 2001: a Wedding odyssey. It was full of random zooms onto nothing. Windows sounds. He played music over my dad's speech and then spent 5 full minutes of recording on a random conversation between me and a friend. It was epically bad.

This was awesome though, the video we played at my wedding, nerd jokes ftw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLV3bGnpU2Q

LOL, I saw my parents wedding video. It was all random 80s English music filled with more footage of the camera man's family then the my parents and their family. LOL

My parents laugh at it now a days. lol

 

[Cryptic Psychedelic]

Has anyone see this?

My Brother, The Islamist

I've read about Anjum Chawdury and from what I've seen of him, he seems like the sort of person I wouldn't want near me. And the way Salahuddin and the rest are acting in the documentary, I find it reprehensible.
Shaking a non-muslim's hand with your left because the left hand is considered unclean and worthy for non-muslims......!?!?!?!?!

 

[Yasir]

Has anyone see this?

My Brother, The Islamist

I've read about Anjum Chawdury and from what I've seen of him, he seems like the sort of person I wouldn't want near me. And the way Salahuddin and the rest are acting in the documentary, I find it reprehensible.
Shaking a non-muslim's hand with your left because the left hand is considered unclean and worthy for non-muslims......!?!?!?!?!

Yeah I did watch it. I was cringing quite alot, its so unfortunate he dragged into and pretty much made a puppet for the agenda of the fundamentalists. Its also quite unfortunate that he chose the name Salahuddin too; he does possess even a single ounce of the beauty of the true Salahuddin. Tolerance is just not there.

 

[Cryptic Psychedelic]

I don't blame Salahuddin or the other converts for their actions. It's the teacher that I feel should be held accountable. The man is a xenophobic supremacist who hides behind religion. Converts to Islam are considered the most caring human beings in my community and they prove so time and time again. What Anjum Chowdury has done is corrupt them imo.
I don't understand how the ummah does not hold Anjum Chowdury responsible for hate-mongering!?!?!?!

 

[Azih]

I don't understand how the ummah does not hold Anjum Chowdury responsible for hate-mongering!?!?!?!

Because there is no 'ummah' of the form that would be able to hold anyone responsible.

 

[Prine]

Yeah I did watch it. I was cringing quite alot, its so unfortunate he dragged into and pretty much made a puppet for the agenda of the fundamentalists. Its also quite unfortunate that he chose the name Salahuddin too; he does possess even a single ounce of the beauty of the true Salahuddin. Tolerance is just not there.

So tragic, he's not worthy to carry that name in the context he believes he can.

 

[Cryptic Psychedelic]

We're always complaining about Islamophobia but we're not doing doing enough to sort out the bad seeds in our own community. It's always the vocal minority that gives the rest us a bad reputation.

 

[Azih]

We're always complaining about Islamophobia but we're not doing doing enough to sort out the bad seeds in our own community. It's always the vocal minority that gives the rest us a bad reputation.

Agreed.

 

[SmokyDave]

I just got a splitting headache and blood coming out of my ears, so I knew someone on GAF had posted a link to Anjem Choudhary. That man makes my piss boil.

If it's any consolation, he's such a humongous cock-gobbler that I don't think too many people consider him a reflection of islam or muslims. I can almost imagine the mexican-wave of islamic palms hitting foreheads every time he opens his poisonous trap.

If I was a muslim, I'd think Anjem was a patsy created by the west to discredit islam.

 

[Cryptic Psychedelic]

I just got a splitting headache and blood coming out of my ears, so I knew someone on GAF had posted a link to Anjem Choudhary. That man makes my piss boil.

If it's any consolation, he's such a humongous cock-gobbler that I don't think too many people consider him a reflection of islam or muslims. I can almost imagine the mexican-wave of islamic palms hitting foreheads every time he opens his poisonous trap.

If I was a muslim, I'd think Anjem was a patsy created by the west to discredit islam.

For the first bold, you'd be suprised at the number of people I've met who consider him a poster-boy for "mainstream" Islam. Yes, MAINSTREAM Islam.

He's a hypocrite who goes against everything mentioned in the Quran about good-will, humility and courtesy. I've seen a couple of interviews of his and I'm suprised at the amount of toxic filth he spew, how does he get away with it :S

Second bold, crediting every bad seed in the community to a western double-agent doesn't help in building bridges between different social groups. We need those bridges in this day and age.

 

[OttomanScribe]

If I was a muslim, I'd think Anjem was a patsy created by the west to discredit islam.

LMAO! You aren't the first one to think this.

I don't blame Salahuddin or the other converts for their actions. It's the teacher that I feel should be held accountable.

It is the teacher who is held accountable for misguidance. Allahu Alim.

AlhamduliLlah though, most converts find their way out of such extremism. I personally only found Traditionalist Sunnis on my conversion, but my Sheikh and many of the other converts I know only found extremists. However they got out pretty quickly and found the broader community. Sometimes Allah uses even these people as a means to bring others to Islam.

 

[Zapages]

Have you guys heard of Maysoon Zayid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3SAVz5ZxwE
part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc23EVYLtd4&feature=related
part III: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCKCYn5_1ZI&feature=related

Hilarious stuff.

 

[Zapages]

Its good to see Arab Comedians are doing something similar to Allah Made me Funny.

http://www.arabcomedy.org/

 

[OttomanScribe]

Its good to see Arab Comedians are doing something similar to Allah Made me Funny.

http://www.arabcomedy.org/

Arabs are old hat, Bengali/Sri Lankans ftw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuDvAInMYgU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYJCQVE3UMs

Naz and Aamer are awesome.

 

[OttomanScribe]

http://inspiredbymohammed.com/

I thought this was a good general website with a kind of brief overview of the religion

 

[Dever]

http://inspiredbymohammed.com/

I thought this was a good general website with a kind of brief overview of the religion

Don't muslims believe in a literal hell where disbelievers will burn eternally? Or is it the same as christianity where opinions range from "Only my church goes to heaven, rest will burn" to "Everyone will be saved"? Because I don't see how one could square the poisonous idea of a literal hell with for example the human rights page on that site.

 

[SmokyDave]

Don't muslims believe in a literal hell where disbelievers will burn eternally? Or is it the same as christianity where opinions range from "Only my church goes to heaven, rest will burn" to "Everyone will be saved"? Because I don't see how one could square the poisonous idea of a literal hell with for example the human rights page on that site.

The Muslim idea of hell is much fairer, IMO. It's more of a temporary spiritual prison thing IIRC, you eventually get paroled. I'll leave it to those that understand it better than I to explain though.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Don't muslims believe in a literal hell where disbelievers will burn eternally? Or is it the same as christianity where opinions range from "Only my church goes to heaven, rest will burn" to "Everyone will be saved"? Because I don't see how one could square the poisonous idea of a literal hell with for example the human rights page on that site.

The Qur'an tells people that everyone who does an atom's weight of good will feel it, and everyone who does an atom's weight of evil will feel that too. The Muslim conception of judgement is not as simple as 'we are all saved and you are all damned!'. Many Muslims will find themselves in the fire to burn off their sin before they may enter heaven.

However I wonder what you would say is the problem with any idea of hell when it relates to human rights?

In other news, I was reading this today. It is a short compilation of fatwas and talks regarding domestic violence, composed in English

 

[Dever]

The Qur'an tells people that everyone who does an atom's weight of good will feel it, and everyone who does an atom's weight of evil will feel that too. The Muslim conception of judgement is not as simple as 'we are all saved and you are all damned!'. Many Muslims will find themselves in the fire to burn off their sin before they may enter heaven.

However I wonder what you would say is the problem with any idea of hell when it relates to human rights?

In other news, I was reading this today. It is a short compilation of fatwas and talks regarding domestic violence, composed in English

Well I thought it kind of odd how Islam is often reported to be a faith which(when interpreted correctly) is completely okay with people worshipping other gods but simultaneously includes a concept of hell for disbelievers. To me, that raises a red flag that says "This is man-made". It's just like an advert on a shopping channel, showing how dull and arduous your life is without their product. I can't conceive of a god that would reward faith and worship and punish skepticism. Or of course I could, I just wouldn't call that god "the most high, most merciful" etc.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Well I thought it kind of odd how Islam is often reported to be a faith which(when interpreted correctly) is completely okay with people worshipping other gods but simultaneously includes a concept of hell for disbelievers.

It is not 'okay with people worshipping other gods', not least because there are no other gods. It is simply that people are judged according to what they know, if they know nothing about the religion, then they aren't held to the standards of the religion.

Like I said, hell is not solely the province of those who disbelieve, it is also where one who believes is cleansed of their sin.

To me, that raises a red flag that says "This is man-made". It's just like an advert on a shopping channel, showing how dull and arduous your life is without their product. I can't conceive of a god that would reward faith and worship and punish skepticism. Or of course I could, I just wouldn't call that god "the most high, most merciful" etc.

Allah is not only 'Most High, Most Merciful', he is also 'the Subduer', 'the Abaser', 'the Giver of Dishonour', 'the Destroyer' and 'the Afflictor'. If your idea of the Muslim God is some fuzzy, lovey old man in the sky, then you know nothing of the religion. Coming into this thread with arguments against the Christian 'All-Loving' God will not avail you much.

 

[Dever]

It is not 'okay with people worshipping other gods', not least because there are no other gods. It is simply that people are judged according to what they know, if they know nothing about the religion, then they aren't held to the standards of the religion.

Like I said, hell is not solely the province of those who disbelieve, it is also where one who believes is cleansed of their sin.


Allah is not only 'Most High, Most Merciful', he is also 'the Subduer', 'the Abaser', 'the Giver of Dishonour', 'the Destroyer' and 'the Afflictor'. If your idea of the Muslim God is some fuzzy, lovey old man in the sky, then you know nothing of the religion. Coming into this thread with arguments against the Christian 'All-Loving' God will not avail you much.

I didn't necessarily come into this thread to argue about anything. I wanted to know more about the muslim concept of hell, since that's something that originally caused me to doubt christianity. I'm also often confused by the divergence of beliefs in Islam, a confusion that was brought to surface by the site you posted. I fully accept I don't know that much about Islam, but you can't blame me for having an idea of some fuzzy, lovely old man in the sky. That's kind of the image you get from reading Inspired by Muhammad. I would imagine that a god that would rather have his prophet cut his robe than disturb a sleeping cat would also have a moral issue with torturing unbelievers in fire for eternity.

If the god of Islam isn't all-loving, that's fine, no one can say he's self-contradictory then. But I don't how he could be called just or good either or how one could say that the islamic worldview is in any way appealing. Torturing someone for not believing something, eternally, just sounds rather petty to me. It's revenge for revenge's sake, achieving nothing. But of course, like a bully in the schoolyard, no matter how much I rant and rave about injustice and morality and such, that won't stop him from beating me up if he so pleases.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I didn't necessarily come into this thread to argue about anything. I wanted to know more about the muslim concept of hell, since that's something that originally caused me to doubt christianity. I'm also often confused by the divergence of beliefs in Islam, a confusion that was brought to surface by the site you posted. I fully accept I don't know that much about Islam, but you can't blame me for having an idea of some fuzzy, lovely old man in the sky. That's kind of the image you get from reading Inspired by Muhammad. I would imagine that a god that would rather have his prophet cut his robe than disturb a sleeping cat would also have a moral issue with torturing unbelievers in fire for eternity.

The site is certainly simplistic in the sense that it gives a very broad overview of what the religion is about, but doesn't indulge in any of the complexities or depth of theology. If you wish to know about things with more depth I am happy to refer you to other more complex sites. The focus of the site is more upon the mercy that was the Prophet Mohammed (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam), towards everyone, believer and non-believer alike. This is a guide for conduct of one who believes. It does not say that Allah will not judge those who transgress. Allah and the Prophet are not the same thing.

If the god of Islam isn't all-loving, that's fine, no one can say he's self-contradictory then. But I don't how he could be called just or good either or how one could say that the islamic worldview is in any way appealing. Torturing someone for not believing something, eternally, just sounds rather petty to me. It's revenge for revenge's sake, achieving nothing.

Part of the issue with this is that it assumes that one is in a position to have a valid judgement upon what is and what is not 'just'. We are all manifestations of the attributes of God, some of us will in our lifetime be manifestations of his Rahma, his Mercy, others will be manifestation of His other, less 'fuzzy' aspects. If by appealing, you seek a religion with no moral position or consistency, then you will have no luck with Islam. The religion tells us to 'seek refuge in God, from God'.

As to hell, you keep asserting the same concept of hell, which I have not validated.

 

[Dever]

Part of the issue with this is that it assumes that one is in a position to have a valid judgement upon what is and what is not 'just'.

My sense of justice is a product of genes and culture, I admit. A god, if one exists, has no obligation to fit this sense of justice. But if you assert justice is simply determined by god, that puts you on a crash course with the Euthyphro dilemma.

As to hell, you keep asserting the same concept of hell, which I have not validated.

Well, damnit. We should at least get this cleared up so this discussion doesn't result in zero sum increased understanding. I get that hell is a temporary thing for believers. Is it the same for disbelievers? Is it some sort of physical torment? I would also understand if you said it's simply not known in great detail like some christians say though.

 

[victreeb3l]

Arabs are old hat, Bengali/Sri Lankans ftw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuDvAInMYgU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYJCQVE3UMs

Naz and Aamer are awesome.

heh that was pretty awesome, thanks for sharing. i particularly didnt find AMMF that funny from the trailers. is that worth viewing in its entirity?

 

[victreeb3l]

has this been posted before?

Lesley Hazleton sat down one day to read the Koran. And what she found -- as a non-Muslim, a self-identified "tourist" in the Islamic holy book -- wasn't what she expected. With serious scholarship and warm humor, Hazleton shares the grace, flexibility and mystery she found, in this myth-debunking talk from TEDxRainier.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lesley_hazelton_on_reading_the_koran.html

thought it was a nice watch

 

[Meus Renaissance]

One thing that baffles me is the narrative that, in the context of Muslim and West relations since 9/11, is that the central theme for terrorism here is that Islam/Muslims hate America - not for the geopolitics or the noted support for Israel - but because "they" hate what America stands for; freedom, democracy, liberties "and mini skirts". It's on par with the cited alleged motivation of 72 virgins for suicide bombers.

It's not a theme that was as common as it was a few years ago but with the War on Terror being a social or environmental factor in most people's lives, it's amazing just how little discussion there is on the actual causes for it which is perhaps one of the reasons why so many people can find audience in their hyperbole rhetoric. It's amazing. The question is given an answer that delves in the differences of the two cultures, namely women's rights for example - and I'm thinking "What has this got to do with terrorism?". A seemingly political issue is translated as religious and then quickly cultural. Last time I remember that happening was during the English Reformation where Catholic priests were called foreign political agents.

 

[OttomanScribe]

My sense of justice is a product of genes and culture, I admit. A god, if one exists, has no obligation to fit this sense of justice. But if you assert justice is simply determined by god, that puts you on a crash course with the Euthyphro dilemma.

My apologies for my slow reply, I was out of state.

Yes, God has no obligation to fit your sense of justice.

Well, damnit. We should at least get this cleared up so this discussion doesn't result in zero sum increased understanding. I get that hell is a temporary thing for believers. Is it the same for disbelievers? Is it some sort of physical torment? I would also understand if you said it's simply not known in great detail like some christians say though.

Hell, like heaven, is understood in many ways, from simplistic narratives of the fruit and the fire, to the deeper understanding of hell as 'one turning their back upon God, and Him turning his back upon one in turn', this of course not being in a literal sense.

What seems to be implied in your understanding is that one who has not had God as central to their life, somehow should have God be central in their afterlife. If one is not a reflection of God-centredness in life, how can they expect to be close to God in death?

Hell is absence from God, it is being aborted from the rahmah (mercy) of the wombishness of God. It is explained in physical terms for the sake of simplicity, however its reality is in truth almost incomprehensible.

heh that was pretty awesome, thanks for sharing. i particularly didnt find AMMF that funny from the trailers. is that worth viewing in its entirity?

As a Muslim I didn't find Allah made me funny that.. funny. I like Fear of a Brown Planet though they used to work on a slightly cheesy Muslim talk show called Salam Cafe that was quite popular for some time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAfEyLwpSF0

 

[Ashes]

One thing that baffles me is the narrative that, in the context of Muslim and West relations since 9/11, is that the central theme for terrorism here is that Islam/Muslims hate America - not for the geopolitics or the noted support for Israel - but because "they" hate what America stands for; freedom, democracy, liberties "and mini skirts". It's on par with the cited alleged motivation of 72 virgins for suicide bombers.

It's not a theme that was as common as it was a few years ago but with the War on Terror being a social or environmental factor in most people's lives, it's amazing just how little discussion there is on the actual causes for it which is perhaps one of the reasons why so many people can find audience in their hyperbole rhetoric. It's amazing. The question is given an answer that delves in the differences of the two cultures, namely women's rights for example - and I'm thinking "What has this got to do with terrorism?". A seemingly political issue is translated as religious and then quickly cultural. Last time I remember that happening was during the English Reformation where Catholic priests were called foreign political agents.

Hmm.... Interesting...

 

[Zapages]

Anyone here seen Taqwacore (2010) Movie?

 

[OttomanScribe]

One thing that baffles me is the narrative that, in the context of Muslim and West relations since 9/11, is that the central theme for terrorism here is that Islam/Muslims hate America - not for the geopolitics or the noted support for Israel - but because "they" hate what America stands for; freedom, democracy, liberties "and mini skirts". It's on par with the cited alleged motivation of 72 virgins for suicide bombers.

It's not a theme that was as common as it was a few years ago but with the War on Terror being a social or environmental factor in most people's lives, it's amazing just how little discussion there is on the actual causes for it which is perhaps one of the reasons why so many people can find audience in their hyperbole rhetoric. It's amazing. The question is given an answer that delves in the differences of the two cultures, namely women's rights for example - and I'm thinking "What has this got to do with terrorism?". A seemingly political issue is translated as religious and then quickly cultural. Last time I remember that happening was during the English Reformation where Catholic priests were called foreign political agents.

I didn't think anyone made that argument seriously?

I think it is however often subtly implied in many commentaries on such things.

 

[Prine]

has this been posted before?


http://www.ted.com/talks/lesley_hazelton_on_reading_the_koran.html

thought it was a nice watch

Fantastic, watching now!

Edit: Already in circulation with my crowd.

 

[Glasswork]

Not sure if it's been discussed here already, but here goes
How do you guys feel about homosexuality?, most of you seem pretty knowledgeable about Islam, so I figured this is a good place to ask.

 

[Zapages]

Not sure if it's been discussed here already, but here goes
How do you guys feel about homosexuality?, most of you seem pretty knowledgeable about Islam, so I figured this is a good place to ask.

watch Taqwacore... All the folks here I suggest watching it. Personally I don't care.

 

[2San]

Not sure if it's been discussed here already, but here goes
How do you guys feel about homosexuality?, most of you seem pretty knowledgeable about Islam, so I figured this is a good place to ask.

I'm totally accepting towards homosexuality, don't think I'd even mind if my kids where gay. Though I can't say that for sure, since I don't have kids that are actually gay(or kids at all). My brother is open minded towards them as well, but the rest of my family is pretty narrow minded about it. Probably because they are all born and raised in Bangladesh. Though they don't mind homosexuality if it's just acquaintances, but if it's in the family. I'm pretty sure that person would get disowned and his/her parents would live in shame.

 

[victreeb3l]

As a Muslim I didn't find Allah made me funny that.. funny. I like Fear of a Brown Planet though they used to work on a slightly cheesy Muslim talk show called Salam Cafe that was quite popular for some time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAfEyLwpSF0

figured. gonna track down FoaBP soon

Anyone here seen Taqwacore (2010) Movie?

never heard of it, but i just googled and it sounds interesting. im netflixing it and there seems to be two movies on taqwacore: "birth of punk islam" and "the taqwacores", which is available for streaming. hmmm

Fantastic, watching now!

Edit: Already in circulation with my crowd.

woop. found it on my brothers facebook myself so might as well spread the message

 

[Zapages]

never heard of it, but i just googled and it sounds interesting. im netflixing it and there seems to be two movies on taqwacore: "birth of punk islam" and "the taqwacores", which is available for streaming. hmmm

Its the second one.

Here's my mini review:

Rebellious Muslims youths that have been rejected by the society and are searching for an identity is Taqwacore 2010 movie is all about. Plus the whole Muslim Punk scene.

Everything that you would hate in terms hear and see from a Muslim or from non-Muslim persective is all formed into Taqwacore.

This movie touches upon many Muslim subjects that Muslims shy away from in their day to day activities. Yet they are right there in front of them. I will talk about this later in this review.

The story starts out with Yusuf, a young Pakistani young adult who finds room to rent in a Muslim home in the hopes that they will keep in on the right path and guide him to become a good Muslim. Yet, he is not aware of what lays before him.

The house is run by bunch of Muslim punks who call themselves abd belong to a soceity called as Taqwacore.

All of the characters in the movie are Muslim from a certain perspective.

Yusuf: He does not appear to be a punk nor seems to be one. This journey in the house will forever change his view on what he sees and experiences. The story is mostly told through his point of view and his journey as he meets many different people in this house will show what Muslims who get rejected from the society feel and seem like.

Umar: Seems to be good Muslim, but he is an hypocrite just like everyone else with having tattoes. Also he has a huge rage issues. His characterization is a guy who does not stop all the bad things that happen yet keeps on criticizing everyone else who is not like him. Everything is against Islam for him.

Amazing Ayyub: A drunk and drug who is a Shia Muslim and does not mind fornicating with other Musims out there.

Rabeya: Looks can be deceiving, although she wears the burka in the house and in her own room. She is not innocent and shows the hypocrites in the Muslim society. She is more knowledgeable about sex and mastrubation then anyone in the show. She says, she is Muslim but takes out everything out that does not interest her out of the Holy Quran.

Jehangir: One of the most important characters in the movie. His definition of Islam is anyone who believes in one God and Prophet Muhammad is the messenger.

Fatima: She is a minor characters. Although she dresses and acts as an American. She does not know much of the taboo subjects in the Muslim community. Regardless of this, she is more innocent than Rabeya. Thus once again lookd can be deceiving.

Lynn: An agnostic whoo burnt herself of Islam and Christanity. Basically she is finding who she is.

Faisi: A Muslim who thinks marijunna is legal because it grows from the plants.

The movie is filled with Muslims, that don't know the understand the Holy Quran. Instead they quote Surrah and Iyats left and right with their limited knowledge of Islam to show that they are right. This is just like how Terrorists and Islamaphobes take quotes of the Holy Quran to prove their point of view. Addition to this, the movie amplifies the story that fear of Muslims in the west and the lies and fear that is being spread.

Regardless of these subjects, the other important subjects that movie talks about are that there should be Friday prayers where everyone is allowed no matter how they appear, think and do. In the movie, there multiple Friday prayers, where a female is giving the serman. This notion, is blasmous in Islam but still presented in the movie. This just one of many other examples in the movie that are represented to be very risque to say the least. Aside from this, Taqwacore is about Muslims, and the fear amongst Muslims that before the end of times that there will be so many different sects of Islam and only one would be right at the end of it all. Are we as Muslims the right sect and practicing Islam properly or are we like everyone else who will go straight to hell? The movie raises the question as Muslims should we not become even more fractionized and fragmented instead become more accepting of each other.

Everyone and Muslims should give the movie a watch and see what is happening in today's Muslim youth who have been rejected by the society...

PS: Check your PM.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Not sure if it's been discussed here already, but here goes
How do you guys feel about homosexuality?, most of you seem pretty knowledgeable about Islam, so I figured this is a good place to ask.

I have no particular feeling about homosexuality. In terms of my understanding of the Sacred Law, I understand there are two distinct ideas around it. One is the situation in which one is attracted to both sexes (bisexual) yet chooses to pursue the same sex, seeking out relationships in contravention to the law. The other is one who is compelled by their nature towards finding only the same sex attractive.

Any relationship that exists outside the bounds of the Sha'riah is impermissable. I personally do not treat people differently based upon their sexual orientation. My 'God parents' are two women who cohabit and are in a relationship.

In terms of a marriage between same sex partners, such a thing is not permissable in the religion.

 

[OttomanScribe]

watch Taqwacore...

If it is anything like the book, I think I will find it abhorent.