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Official LotR: The Return of the King - SEE Thread

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ManaByte

Gold Member
Oh and Harry Knowles is on disc four not disc three. When they are showing the final day of filming on the Minis Tirith set, you can see him sitting behind Peter Jackson using his laptop.

wtf. booooooo-urns.

Disc three shows two fast clips of them. There is a shot of Gimli mining jewels and a shot of Legolas walking through Mirkwood.

Stuff like that is what will show up on the HD-DVD release.

Things that were filmed but never used:
Aragorn meeting Arwen
lotrtttmovieteaser17aa.jpg


Orc battle at the edge of Lorien
lotrfotrmovietrailer17tz.jpg


Gollum-Frodo
Arwen at Helm's Deep (she can still be seen in one Helm's Deep shot in the final TTT)

Lots of Arwen/Elrond stuff in Rivendel that was used in the ROTK trailers.
lotrrotkmovietrailer31ns.jpg
lotrrotkmovietrailer29ff.jpg


Merry's alternate scene where he tells Pippin that they will see the Shire again.
lotrrotkmovietrailer18uu.jpg


Legolas' and Gimli's endings.

I would say Aragorn vs Sauron in ROTK, but that scene exists in the final movie as they just put a CG Troll over the Sauron suit he was fighting.

Here's the shot of Arwen at Helm's Deep that made it into the final movie:
arwenhelmsdeepttt8ve.jpg


They digitally removed her in all other scenes. Guess they missed that one.
 
I was hoping they would put those Elrond/Arwen scenes and the Merry/Pippin scene in it, but overall, the new footage was fantastic. I think this is definitely the best of the EEs in terms of new footage added. Haven't checked out the bonus DVDs yet... hell I haven't really watched much bonus stuff from FotR or TT, I need to get started on that.
 

MrCheez

President/Creative Director of Grumpyface Studios
ManaByte said:
I would say Aragorn vs Sauron in ROTK, but that scene exists in the final movie as they just put a CG Troll over the Sauron suit he was fighting. .

Is this confirmed? From what I've read it's always been an assumption. (I know at one point they were going to have him fight Sauron, but I've never seen it confirmed that they filmed it)
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
MrCheez said:
Is this confirmed? From what I've read it's always been an assumption. (I know at one point they were going to have him fight Sauron, but I've never seen it confirmed that they filmed it)

Yes, they show it in the special features.

Originally Sauron appeared to Aragorn in the fiar form he had before he fell. The Fair-Sauron form only appeared to Aragorn and blinded everyone else. It then morphed into a GIANT armored Sauron who Aragorn fought. They obviously changed it, but all they really did was put a CG armored troll over Sauron.
 

MrCheez

President/Creative Director of Grumpyface Studios
ManaByte said:
Yes, they show it in the special features.

Originally Sauron appeared to Aragorn in the fiar form he had before he fell. The Fair-Sauron form only appeared to Aragorn and blinded everyone else. It then morphed into a GIANT armored Sauron who Aragorn fought. They obviously changed it, but all they really did was put a CG armored troll over Sauron.

Woah... is there any footage left of the original thing in the special features? Or test CGI and/or concept art? :eek:
 
Isn't the troll versus Aragorn fight in the book? For whatever reason I remember a part like that, where Aragorn is having trouble with a troll.

Do they actually say we'll see that cut footage in future versions?
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
MrCheez said:
Woah... is there any footage left of the original thing in the special features? Or test CGI and/or concept art? :eek:

Yeah, they devote a bunch of time to it. I think it's on disc three, but I can't remember.

They show rough footage of the "Fair Sauron" effect, and a bunch of the fight.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
Duck of Death said:
Isn't the troll versus Aragorn fight in the book? For whatever reason I remember a part like that, where Aragorn is having trouble with a troll.

Do they actually say we'll see that cut footage in future versions?

There is no cut footage from the fight.

The "Fair Sauron" bit was transformed to the part where they eye tempts Aragorn, and the Sauron fight is there but a CG Troll is placed over the guy in the Sauron armor.

As for the other unused footage, it's a pretty good bet that it'll all appear on the HD-DVD set along with the Internet Preview trailer from 2000 that didn't make it on any DVD.

Going to watch the Cast commentary in about an hour followed by Jackson's. The Cast commentary (what I've heard of it so far) is a riot with Andy Serkis alternating between himself and Gollum and Dominic ripping on Orlando Bloom at any chance he gets.

One thing the Cast commentary shows is that none of them has the Tolkien knowledge that Christopher Lee has.

Toward the end, the Hobbits are complaining on why the Eagles don't just fly the ring to Mt. Doom. If Christopher Lee was in the room he would've spoken them down and made them cry :lol

(if you didn't know, Lee reads LOTR once a year and met Tolkien).

:lol :lol And in the special features they were talking about how Lee was explaining to Jackson what it sounds like when you stab someone in the back and he had some scary first hand knowledge on the subject and started to bring up some covert British Secret Service operations from WWII. Jackson didn't press the subject. :lol :lol
 
ManaByte said:
:lol :lol And in the special features they were talking about how Lee was explaining to Jackson what it sounds like when you stab someone in the back and he had some scary first hand knowledge on the subject and started to bring up some covert British Secret Service operations from WWII. Jackson didn't press the subject. :lol :lol

:lol :lol :lol
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
Oh, they also show a lot of the original Witch King suit, which actually looked exactly like John Howe's paintings but it also unfortunately looked too much like the movie's Sauron design. Besides I like the one they used more.

poisonthetrees.jpg

That's Howe's Witch King
 

Bregor

Member
ManaByte said:
Oh, they also show a lot of the original Witch King suit, which actually looked exactly like John Howe's paintings but it also unfortunately looked too much like the movie's Sauron design. Besides I like the one they used more.

poisonthetrees.jpg

That's Howe's Witch King

That's Morgoth and Ungoliant.
 

MrCheez

President/Creative Director of Grumpyface Studios
Melkor/Morgoth is a hardcore thugg, y'know. :eek:

ManaByte said:
Going to watch the Cast commentary in about an hour

I love the commentaries. :) Especially all the stuff from Dom and Billy - they're a riot.

I just hope Sean Astin isn't as annoying in this one as he was in the Two Towers commentary. :(
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
MrCheez said:
I just hope Sean Astin isn't as annoying in this one as he was in the Two Towers commentary. :(

Oh god. During Aragorn being crowned he was going off on how the movie is a message that the Iraq war is wrong because it came out at a time when the war was going on. He seems to forget that the movie was written and filmed long before that though.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
MrCheez said:
>_< >_< >_< >_<

Did you ever see the Charlie Rose with Peter Jackson, Wood, and Viggo? Jackson gets extremely pissed when any member of the cast attemps to make any analogy between LOTR and any stance. Tolkien was the same way and said so in his introduction to the trilogy.

Anyways, Viggo (wearing a No Blood for Oil) T-shirt starts rambling on how the trilogy is an analogy for the world today and, without saying it, alluded to Bush being Sauron. You could see Jackson giving him the eye of death and grinding his teeth during this. It was really the only time I've seen Jackson visually pissed off on video.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
In Jackson's commentary he talks about the area they used for the Paths of the Dead and how he wanted to use it for a BRONTOSAURUS STAMPEDE in the King Kong that got canned. Now, he says he won't use the location in his current Kong, but he didn't say anything about the stampede not happening.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
Full list of EVERYTHING that has been altered in the extended cut (SPOILERS):

The Finding of the Ring
This scene is listed as extended, and honestly the only thing that any different was that Smeagol's killing of Deagol seemed a bit longer, which was originally shortened for rating reasons.

The Road to Isengard
Before Gandalf, Theoden, and the Three Hunters arrive at Isengard; the scene with Merry and Pippin is extended slightly with a discussion of how the leaf they were smoking was from the Shire.

The Voice of Saruman
The scene plays out as you expect. Saruman speaks to the heroes and they even added a slight reverb to his magical voice. After Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff and before Saruman can reveal where Sauron will attack, Grima is angered at something Saruman says and stabs him in the back. Legolas then shoots Grima and Saruman falls off the tower and lands on the spiked wheel.

Return to Edoras
The big party scene is extended in a couple ways. There are some new opening shots to Theoden's speech inside the Golden Hall. Legolas and Gimli have a drinking contest that strengthens the friendship between the Dwarf and Elf. And Merry and Pippin's song is extended as Pippin pauses in the middle of it and shares a look with Gandalf.

Eowyn's Dream
As the Fellowship sleeps, Aragon gets up and heads outside. As he passes through the hall, he stops to tend the fire and cover up a sleeping Eowyn. She wakes up and tells Aragorn about a dream she had.

The Palantir
The scene is the same up to when Gandalf and Pippin leave. Now Merry describes to Aragorn how he was always there to get Pippin out of trouble and mentions how the Hobbits are all separated now.

Minas Tirith
Again, the scene is the same up to the point where Pippin bows before Denethor. The Steward asks how Pippin escaped when his son could not, and the Hobbit explains how Boromir was felled by many arrows.

The Decline of Gondor
As Gandalf and Pippin leave the hall, Gandalf explains to Pippin the history of Minas Tirith and Gondor. The scene is filled with gorgeous shots of Minas Tirith that look like an Alan Lee painting brought to life.

The Crossroads of Fallen Kings
As Frodo, Sam, and Gollum journey through the Crossroads Frodo stops and feels like he won't be returning. Sam comforts Frodo by saying they will go there and back again, just like Bilbo.

"The Deep Breath Before the Plunge"
The scene is altered a bit as Gandalf is smoking his pipe and coughing. He is also a bit more sarcastic when mentioning Pippin's position. Pippin brings Gandalf his goblet of water to fix his cough.

The Warning of Sam
As the Hobbits climb up the stair, Sam stops Gollum and warns him that if he feels any danger he'll end things for Smeagol.

Osgiliath Invaded
Before the Orcs land in Osgiliath there's new footage with Faramir and his troops discussing sending scouts to the North to look for the Enemy. They don't know of the attack from the river until a soldier is killed by an Orc arrow.

Theoden's Decision
The shot of Merry kneeling before Theoden that was shown in the very first LOTR trailer is finally here in this extended scene. There is also a small insert of Merry on his pony.

The Fall of Osgiliath
Very small extension here when Faramir returns to Minas Tirith. Gandalf follows his "tell me everything" with "tell me all you know".

The Wizard's Pupil
A new scene between Faramir and Denethor where Faramir is somewhat returned to his book roots by saying that he would not use the Ring even if Minas Tirith was falling into ruin. In a brief moment of madness, Denethor has a vision of Boromir.

The Sacrifice of Faramir
As Faramir rides down through Minas Tirith he shares a few extra lines with Gandalf.

Marshalling at Dunharrow
A very minor alteration here. When Aragorn looks down the path he now sees the King of the Dead looking back. The ghosts were there in the theatrical cut, but very hard to see. They made them easier to see for the Extended cut.

Aragorn Takes the Paths of the Dead
Before the Three Hunters leave the encampment, Aragorn comforts Eowyn after turning her away. This was one of the shots included in the trailer originally.

Dwimorberg - The Haunted Mountain
As the Three Hunters get closer to the entrance to the path under the Mountain, Legolas recites a poem. Also, as the three enter the Paths of the dead, the mists form hands that try to grab them and they learn that they are walking on skulls.

The King of the Dead
Where the original scene ended with "What say you?", the new version expands past that with a huge avalanche of skulls that the Three Hunters outrun to exit on the other side of the mountain where they discover the Corsair ships. Once they are out of the mountain, the King reappears and says "We fight".

The Siege of Gondor
The initial attack on Minas Tirith is expanded greatly with a bunch of new combat footage showing the fight at the wall. We see the Orcs storming the top of the wall while more Orcs bring small battering rams against the gates. As the arches on the wall create piles of dead Orcs at the gate, the forces of Mordor decide they need something bigger and they bring in Grond (look for the Great Beasts Tolkien mentioned in passing as they pull Grond).

The Corsairs of Umbar
Aragorn stops the lead Corsair ship. When he asks Legolas to fire a warning shot, Gimli nudges his arrow on purpose and it flies off course to kill Peter Jackson in his cameo. The Army of the Dead then storms the ships.

Merry's Simple Courage
At a rest stop on the way to Minas Tirith, Eowyn is showing distress. Merry gives an excellent speech that signifies one of the key elements of the Hobbit story that Tolkien put in the book and it's the spirit of that here in the movie.

The Tomb of the Stewards
As Denethor has Faramir carried to the tombs, the scene is extended as Merry follows them all the way. We also see one blooming flower on the White Tree, which is shown as we hear Denethor saying there is no more hope for man.

The Lord of the Nazgul
Happening as you expect (if you read the book), Gandalf faces the Witch King and his staff is broken. Their face off is ended when the horn announcing the arrival of Rohan is heard by the Witch King and he then flies off.

The Pyre of Denethor
Before he drops the torch on the woodpile, Denethor is given an additional line in the Extended cut.

The Battle of Pelennor Fields
There's a lot of additional footage in the battle, mostly involving Eowyn and Merry fighting Orcs on foot. Eowyn (still with her helmet on) saves Theoden from multiple Orcs while he is on horseback. This is what Theoden was referring to when he says that Eowyn already saved him later.

Victory at Minas Tirith
As the Three Hunters and the Army of the Dead wipe up Pelennor fields, the wounded Eowyn is jumped again by Gothmog. As she crawls to grab a sword the Orc is getting closer and closer. He is stopped as Aragorn runs by and chops off his arm as he carves through the remainder of the Mordor army.

The Houses of Healing
After Eomer finds the unconscious Eowyn in the Fields, the short Houses of the Healing sequence begins with Aragorn healing Eowyn. The music in this scene is Liv Tyler's contribution to the soundtrack.

Pippin Finds Merry
The scene happens as it did in the Theatrical cut, only this time Pippin finds Merry at night after everyone else has returned to the city.

The Tower of Cirith Ungol
The Orc civil war in the tower is extended slightly with a few more shots of gruesome fighting. There is also a small addition showing an Uruk Hai leaving with the Mithril Coat.

The Last Debate
Here, Gandalf's line about Sauron expecting a trap is moved to after Gimli's comment of "What are we waiting for" in order to give a transition to the next scene where Aragorn reveals himself to Sauron.

Aragorn and the Palantir
Easily one of the coolest moments in the Extended cut as it recreates a key moment from the book, Aragorn reveals himself and Anduril to Sauron using the Palantir. "Long have you pursued me. Long have I eluded you. No more. Behold the sword of Elendil!" After that, we see Sauron holding his Palantir (inside the one Aragorn is holding) and he shows Aragorn what appears to be a dead Arwen. He drops the Palantir and in the process the Evenstar falls to the ground and shatters.

Faramir and Eowyn
A very short scene added in the Houses of Healing to allude to the future relationship of Faramir and Eowyn.

In Orcs Company
After sliding down the hill from Cirith Ungol, Frodo and Sam hide from a column of Orcs. They're noticed and are forced to join the march. When an inspection Orc spots them, Frodo has Sam hit him to spark a fight among the Orcs which gives them the chance to escape.

The Land of Shadow
In an extended scene of the two Hobbits during their trek across the plains of Gorgorath, we see them discarding their Orc clothes and Sam spots a single star above the clouds that cover Mordor.

The Mouth of Sauron
The Mouth comes out of the Black Gate and shows Frodo's Mithril Coat to the Fellowship and tries to convince them that Frodo was dead. Aragorn rides up to the Mouth and quickly chops off his head. He tells the others that he doesn't believe what they were told.

Mount Doom
The final extended scene comes when Gollum tackles Frodo on the steps of Mount Doom. As he strangles Frodo, the Hobbit reminds him of the promise he made. Gollum grins and says "Smeagol lied."
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
ManaByte said:
Full list of EVERYTHING that has been altered in the extended cut (SPOILERS):

The Mouth of Sauron
The Mouth comes out of the Black Gate and shows Frodo's Mithril Coat to the Fellowship and tries to convince them that Frodo was dead. Aragorn rides up to the Mouth and quickly chops off his head. He tells the others that he doesn't believe what they were told.



That kind if ticks me off. totally changes the impact of the scene when it was in the book.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
IAmtheFMan said:
Huh... is their no extension of Sam and the Watchers?

No. Jackson talks about it in the commentary, but he said he decided to not put it back in but again joked that maybe they will for the 25th Anniversary.
 

Eminem

goddamit, Griese!
damn, i need to watch some of these extras.

mana, do you remember which disk had the stuff with legolas and gimli's ending? was it also disk 3?

in any case, thanks for all the info you've contributed here =)
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
Eminem said:
damn, i need to watch some of these extras.

mana, do you remember which disk had the stuff with legolas and gimli's ending? was it also disk 3?

in any case, thanks for all the info you've contributed here =)

Disc three I believe. I think it was in the adaptation part where they were talking about the ending and they mention that they did endings for Gimli and Legolas and had to cut them. That's where they show their endings.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
I think one of my favorite moments is on disc four where Peter Jackson is filming the final Frodo shot ever and he just can't end it. He keeps getting takes and basically comes to the point where they were going to run out of film and he just wouldn't call cut.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
According to Jackson in the commentary; he filmed epilogues for Gimli, Legolas, and Faramir with Eowyn. Damnit.
 

MASB

Member
I'm disappointed that so many scenes weren't included in the extended edition or shown on the extras discs. But I guess that's for the inevitable double dip. I can see the Arwen fighting sequence not being in the movie itself (since it didn't fit and they did her story from another angle), but they should have the scene itself entirely somewhere on the other two discs.

Still, I can't imagine the amount of time I'll be dedicating to this set. See the movie, see the movie with two or so commentaries, then all the special features on the other two discs. Whew! That would amount to a day or so of continous viewing if I did it that way (I'll space that out of course).
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
MASB said:
I'm disappointed that so many scenes weren't included in the extended edition or shown on the extras discs. But I guess that's for the inevitable double dip.

Jackson has already said there won't be another major release until HD-DVD
 
ManaByte said:
No. Jackson talks about it in the commentary, but he said he decided to not put it back in but again joked that maybe they will for the 25th Anniversary.

You mind paraphrasing why he didn't? Was it even filmed?
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
IAmtheFMan said:
You mind paraphrasing why he didn't? Was it even filmed?

Yeah, it was filmed. He mentioned pacing and glossed over it. There was A LOT of stuff that was filmed and didn't make it into the Extended Cuts. Like Legolas and Treebeard had a scene that was cut as well.
 

Socreges

Banned
Got mine earlier today.

I still haven't seen RotK, so this will be particularly special. Or particularly disappointing. Dunno.

I'm considering watching FotR and TT first, but watching all three EEs would take an entire day. Maybe I'll watch one each day for three consecutive days.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
I really liked Jackson's reason for the way the ROTK credits are. He said you could just chop off the credits from TTT and FOTR and ROTK would be the credits for one long movie.
 

MASB

Member
ManaByte said:
Jackson has already said there won't be another major release until HD-DVD
I said inevitable, not soon. But then again, I guess an HD-DVD release can't be called a double dip. I guess that would kind of be like saying a movie released on VHS and then later DVD was a double dip and I don't think anyone thinks that.

When the further extended HD-DVDs are released, yeesh! I'm laughing at how much time it'll take me and others to watch the movies then.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
MASB said:
I said inevitable, not soon. But then again, I guess an HD-DVD release can't be called a double dip. I guess that would kind of be like saying a movie released on VHS and then later DVD was a double dip and I don't think anyone thinks that.

When the further extended HD-DVDs are released, yeesh! I'm laughing at how much time it'll take me and others to watch the movies then.

I don't think the HD-DVD release will be further extensions. The HD-DVD release is likely to be 2007 (after the Kong DVDs). They will probably be two-disc sets with the extended cuts in HD on one disc each and the documentaries of each film on a disc of their own.

Jackson keeps joking about the 25th Anniversary and that's probably the most likely time we'll see any more extensions if any.
 
I haven't really been dissapointed by anything major in the trilogy. I thought Jackson did a terrific job.

But the "Mouth of Sauron" just doesn't sit well with me at all. It's a total farce of how the character is presented in the books and should be one of the most powerful scenes in the trilogy. It is after all the moment probably where Aragorn/Gandalf/company hit rock bottom. I think Jackson really struck out on that one. My brother was laughing throughout the entire scene.

Other than that, yeah I thought ROTK probably benefits most from the extended scenes. The pacing of the theatrical cut I thought was a little too fast at times and too slow at other times, there needed to be a bit more build-up to battle in Pellenor Fields and the EE was better in that regard.
 
As somone who's never read the books but owns all of the EE's, I have to say that my feelings are mixed regarding RotK's EE. The FotR and TTT EE's definitely left me feeling like I got better, more fleshed out films for my dollar, but RotK was the first time that it seemed like there was perhaps too much for the film's own good.

I liked some of the extensions, but overall I preferred the pacing of the theatrical cut better. The gallop toward the siege of the city was incredible in the original cut. The swell of the action moved so fluidly that it was nearly orgiastic when Pellenor Fields finally came to fruition. I remember getting goosebumps when Denethor flung himself from the precipice and the scene panned out to the chaos of the battlefield below. The pace of the movie to that point was without flaw.


The only things that really didn't sit well with me or seemed rushed in the theatrical release were:

1. Denethor's under-developed madness. The EE does a better job of fleshing out his dimentia, but even still I think it would have benefitted from some reference to his use of the Palantir (as others have mentioned) in order to make things more plausible.

2. The brevity of the ghost army attack. In the TC its like they just swoop from a boat, Legolas takes and elephant ride and viola, battle over. The EE adds a little more to things, but not much of it deals directly with the army of the dead, instead being mostly shots of other characters (Eowyn/Aragorn etc) fighting with the ghost swarm in the background.

3. The battle at the black gate. Aragorn's "for Frodo" seemed misplaced without the Mouth of Sauron scene, as did the troll fight. It all just seemed slightly beneath the newly crowned king to be on his back under the foot of some brutish beast when redemption came.


Beyond those things, I think the theatrical cut was perfect. The EE added other points of contention for me that either negated the benefits of the extra footage or didn't address the problems I had. Among them:

1. Saruman. It was cool to actually see him given how much of the first two films he occupied, but his scene wasn't really productive to the narrative and his death was a cheesy sequence at best. A Saruman/Gandalf dialogue followed by some sort of imprisonment/limitation of power for Saruman would have been enough to satisfy my needs.

2. Dwimorberg. Again the theatrical cut was better. The build up to "What say you!" followed by a cutaway to the escalation at Minis Tirith worked better than drawing out the scene and stifling the momentum. The skull avalanche was cool to look at but pointless, and the fact that there was any delay between Aragorn's command and the ghosts' compliance seemed to diminish his authority as king. The theatrical cut + a snippet of the group boarding the Corsair ship (following a return cut to Minis Tirith after "What say you!") would have been perfect. The theatrical cut didn't offer much explanation behind Aragorns arrival on the pirate ships at Pellenor Fields.

3. Eowyn's battlefield scenes were too overdrawn. The TC had it right, as seeing her crawling with the wounded arm after felling the Witch King and embracing Theoden seemed anti-climactic.


There were also plenty of other things that seemed overdrawn, although I realize that the EE's are designed to be completist and more true to the books than to a sense of pace or cinematography. Even still, I had the feeling that this was the only film of the three where the additions worked to the movie's detriment instead of vice versa.

Editing aside, the movie had some stuff I could never come to terms with. For one, the army of the dead seemed like a pretty huge copout. Although the human armies did the bulk of the fighting, the fact that the ghosts simply couldn't be vanquished made victory basically an inevitability centered only around the time of their arrival. The redemption story was cool but it diminished the sense of accomplishment for the fellowship.

Another thing I could never understand was how Frodo's accomplishment was so noble given that a) Sam basically willed him to the top of Mount Doom, and that b) the ring was destroyed by mere happenstance. When Sam carried the ring for Frodo it seemed almost inconsequential (until Frodo demanded he hand it over)...he kicked ass and took names, never wrestling with the temptation in the least (and certainly not at all to the degree of Frodo, Gollum, or Boromir). Then on top of that, Frodo put the ring back on, began languishing again, and then Sam practically dragged his ass to the volcano's cauldron. And at the end, the ring's destruction was no triumph of will or duty, but a mere side effect of the greed it engendered. I guess it's cool that the lust for the ring's power eventually led to it's own undoing, but it just really seemed to diminish the fact that they (Frodo in particular) had done their duty. I guess the movie was just mirroring the source material, but it doesn't make it any more palatble to me as a movie-goer.

Overall the RotK EE isn't bad (I haven't watched the extras yet..loved the goodies on the first two), but I'd be lieing if I said I wasn't a tad bit disappointed with the final product. All this talk of more possible scenes added to an HD-DVD re-release just scare me.
 

Bat

Member
I also have major problems with RotK (as opposed to the first two movies, which were close to perfect) both in the theatrical release and the EE.

1) The troll-Aragorn fight was really stupid. There's no reason he should any trouble with a troll and in the book Pippen of all people is able to take one down, so it is pretty ridiculous that Aragorn has to concern himself with one. I think the Sauron at the black gate idea actually sounds pretty good, if they actually put a lot of effort into it (and looking at the documentaries, they weren't going to) even though it is totally disengenious to the book.

2) The Witch King should not be able to break Gandalf's staff (and he doesn't do such a thing in the book). Considering Gandalf the Grey was able to defeat a Balrog (who is almost Sauron's equal), Gandalf the White should not have been portrayed as being so weak.

3) I also find the way the army of the dead was treated in the movies as a cop-out (ie the invincible, what's the point?). In the book, Aragorn arrives with men from the south who stayed back to guard against the "second force", not with the army of the dead (whose only purpose is to overthrow the ships). Also, the fleet from Umbar should have been much larger...the book says something like 50 ships. It really is an entire army, not just a few ships.

4) I hate the extended cut of the army of the dead. The original cut maintained some of the suprise of Aragorn's arriving on the ships that the book had. The EE totally destroys that by fleshing out the sequence. Bleh.

5) The movie really limits the scale of the war. The EE did have one small mention of Sauron's other armies, but it should have been made more clear that entire armies were also fighting the Elves in the northern woods and men and dwarves at the Lonely Mountain. Minas Tirith was only the location of one battle (although the largest) out of several.

6) As was previously said, the Palantir at Minas Tirith should have been given more emphasis. Also, Aragorn's palantir scene shouldn't have ended in him dropping the thing...he's supposed to be able to master it.

7) Finally, the plains of Mordor were really dissapointing. For all the great scenery they did throughout the trilogy, they really failed at capturing any of the darkness and dreadfullness of being inside Mordor.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Ned Flanders said:
Another thing I could never understand was how Frodo's accomplishment was so noble given that a) Sam basically willed him to the top of Mount Doom, and that b) the ring was destroyed by mere happenstance. When Sam carried the ring for Frodo it seemed almost inconsequential (until Frodo demanded he hand it over)...he kicked ass and took names, never wrestling with the temptation in the least (and certainly not at all to the degree of Frodo, Gollum, or Boromir). Then on top of that, Frodo put the ring back on, began languishing again, and then Sam practically dragged his ass to the volcano's cauldron. And at the end, the ring's destruction was no triumph of will or duty, but a mere side effect of the greed it engendered. I guess it's cool that the lust for the ring's power eventually led to it's own undoing, but it just really seemed to diminish the fact that they (Frodo in particular) had done their duty. I guess the movie was just mirroring the source material, but it doesn't make it any more palatble to me as a movie-goer.

I'd like to respond to this, a bit. I'll provide you with some details and insight that really could only have come from reading the books.

Frodo was Bearer of the Ring for quite a few years, actually, IIRC. I don't remember what the span of time was between Bilbo leaving the Shire and Frodo & co. following his footsteps, but I'm pretty sure it was at least 4 years, possibly more. That may not seem like such a span of time but added to however many years that was, Frodo also physically bore the Ring for a whole 13 months. Over a year of near-constant contact. The Ring corrupts any near it, especially its Bearers. Now, one thing the movies don't outright explain, is that Hobbits seem to have a very unusual trait, that being a potent resistance to corruption. Smeagol and Deagol weren't Hobbits, exactly, they were likened to the predecessors of the "present" day Hobbits, sharing many similar traits and customs with those that would follow. Smeagol Bore the ring for centuries, IIRC. It obviously lengthened his lifespan and corrupted him fully, but to his credit, he wanted it only for himself, not to fulfill dreams of power and conquest.

Bilbo, an even stronger case, was Bearer for a few decades (I want to say at least 50 or 60 years, but again, I don't recall fully), and while you could see evidence of corruption in him, he too never sought to use the Ring to dominate others. As I mentioned before, Frodo bore it for only about 5 or 6 years, at most, and he did succumb at the very end. But another thing to consider is that before Sauron's self proclamation (his arising took decades, if not longer) the Ring was content to remain with Smeagol and later Bilbo, in a relatively dormant state. It was only once Sauron unveiled himself to his enemies (and allies) that the Ring awakened and began to actively influence events (in order to reunite itself with its true master.) As Sauron gained in power, so to did the Ring, and as the Ring strengthened, so would its Bearer weaken.

Frodo and Sam's triumph wasn't so much that they destroyed the Ring, but that they were able to remain true to themselves for the 13 or so month journey to and through Mordor. And realize, the closer the Ring got to Mordor, and then Sauron, the greater the influence it could exert over Frodo. Each step Frodo took would have made the burden that must harder to bear. The reason that Sam seemed less affected by the Ring is that (1) he is indeed a heartier Hobbit than Frodo (who was further diminished by the evil of the Witchking's strike at Weathertop), and (2) he (Sam) only actually Bore the Ring for a couple of days, not the years Frodo did.

Frodo was, for all intents and purposes, a pretty shattered soul by the time he reached Mt. Doom, and it is unsurprising that he eventually succumbed, just as Isildur did. However, he resisted the Ring MUCH longer than Isildur. In fact, though I don't think it's expressly mentioned in the books, I do believe it is implied that Man are the weakest in resisting its affects (supported by Boromir's quick fall to the Ring, despite the fact that he never came to bear it.)

It is highly unlikely that any other race would have succeeded where Frodo and Sam did. Gandalf and all of the other Elves wouldn't even TOUCH the Ring.

Edit - A few more thoughts.

You may have noticed that not only the Elves (and Gandalf, who isn't actually of the race of Man, in case you didn't know) left Middle Earth forever, for the Grey Havens, but so to did all of the Bearers. Frodo, in particular, was too warped by the influence of the Ring to ever be happy again in Middle Earth. He leaves Bag End to Sam, and departs Middle Earth. What the movies do not tell you, however, is that after Sam inherits Bag End, marries Rosie, becomes Sheriff of the Shire, and has oodles of kids, a darkness grips him too. IIRC, many, many years (decades) after the movie ends, Sam too eventually leaves Middle Earth for the Havens.

It's actually pretty remarkable, then, that where Elves and Wizards dare not touch the Ring, and where Men are almost instantly consumed by it, the diminutive, relatively non-important Hobbits are best equipped to handle it...
 

MrCheez

President/Creative Director of Grumpyface Studios
Another big theme that is important to keep in mind is the pity and mercy towards Gollum from the Hobbits that allowed Gollum to be there in the end and cause the ring to be destroyed. (Unfortunately a rather important scene from the book where Sam spares Gollum at the foot of Mount Doom was left out of the movie =P But I think from some of the things that are said in FOTR by Gandalf as well as Frodo's attitude towards Gollum, the point still gets across).

And don't forget the whole the huge theme of Sam's friendship and loyalty to Frodo. That's what really gets the ring destroyed in the end - and that is far from unsatisfying in my mind. :)

Edit:

Anyway as for my own opinions after watching the EE today... it was alright. I think it could have been better but my expectations were also quite high. I still adore the movie though, of course.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
Mejilan said:
You may have noticed that not only the Elves (and Gandalf, who isn't actually of the race of Man, in case you didn't know) left Middle Earth forever, for the Grey Havens, but so to did all of the Bearers. Frodo, in particular, was too warped by the influence of the Ring to ever be happy again in Middle Earth. He leaves Bag End to Sam, and departs Middle Earth. What the movies do not tell you, however, is that after Sam inherits Bag End, marries Rosie, becomes Sheriff of the Shire, and has oodles of kids, a darkness grips him too. IIRC, many, many years (decades) after the movie ends, Sam too eventually leaves Middle Earth for the Havens.

Small correction. Samwise becomes Mayor of Hobbiton (not the entire Shire) and is seen as Mayor Samwise in the movie when Frodo is writing in the Red Book.
 

snaildog

Member
I wasn't too impressed with the EE version. The first two movies' added scenes were mostly awesome additions, but these were nothing special to me, apart from the Mouth of Sauron. I mostly buy the SEs for the commentaries and extras anyway - amazing amount of content for what you pay for them really.
 
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