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[NihonTiger90]

So having watched the replay, here's what happened:

Smith blocked Keselowski, got Kes loose. Kes went down in front of Hornish, who hit him and spun him back up into the wall. Kes collected Larson, and the two of them went up to the wall. At the same time, Allgaier and Scott got hit by Regan Smith and came down off the high lane into Larson, which launched him. Larson's car went head-first into the catch fence, hit a pole, and that seems to have stripped the tire off (as well as dislodged the engine), which them went over the fence and into the stands.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

17 transported 2 critical?? Is that the consensus right now?

Also how do you stop this in the future? Is there some kind of plastic barrier they could use like at hockey games? The chain link just makes things worse it seems.

 

[Big Takeover]

Deadspin has the videos rehosted.

 

[NihonTiger90]

17 transported 2 critical?? Is that the consensus right now?

Also how do you stop this in the future? I there some kind of plastic barrier they could use like at hockey games? The chain link just makes things worse it seems.

Some kind of plastic has been mentioned in the past, but it's tricky. There's not a lot of transparent materials that can resist the kind of blows you get from a heavy stock car smashing into a retaining wall at 180-190 mph.

I do wonder if you could do a double-fence, one higher than the other. Or something like the front stretch at Indy, which has a green space between where fans can stand and where the catch fence is.

 

[moojito]

Damn, that video from the stand doesn't look good at all. If you look behind the tyre you can see an arm of someone who's most definitely not moving.

Also from the comments:

. The wheels, engine, and various parts of the car entered the fence. The most damage seems to have happened from the body panels. I saw one guy with a piece of metal in his chest, and I don't think he made it. I would assume he is already dead.

 

[B.K.]

One death, allegedly.

Tom Bowles ‏@NASCARBowles

A Daytona Beach-News Journal reporter has supposedly gone on air and said there is one fatality. But NO official word from #NASCAR.

 

[Jezbollah]

Sad to hear that. I had uploaded a copy of that youtube clip to daily motion before NASCAR shut that youtube clip down, but I've now deleted it.

NASCAR can make these cars safe as houses for the drivers, but they now need to think of the fans. Big time.

 

[Shaneus]

That video has already been blocked by NASCAR.

Did that wheel go through the access door in the fence?

Something like that happened in a Melbourne F1 GP where a tyre from Jacques Villeneuve's car in 2001 went right through a gap in the fence for flag marshals and killed a guy

Looking at footage like that, F1 really do have this safety thing down to a fine art. That there's only been a very small number of off-track fatalities and none on-track since Senna died, it says a lot.

Can anyone say if there's ever really much talk/consideration given to Indycar/NASCAR in comparison? Because going by that incident, it doesn't look like it :/

 

[NihonTiger90]

 

[Shaneus]

Fucking hell. Is that the radiator and engine starting to come out just in front of the bonnet there?

Christ. It must barely be held in there in the first place.

 

[Vicious]

Fucking hell. Is that the radiator and engine starting to come out just in front of the bonnet there?

Christ. It must barely be held in there in the first place.

This is only the 2nd time in recent memory I can think of an engine coming out of a car. The other was Elliott Sadler's crash at Pocono. Both were extremely violent crashes.

 

[digita1alchemy]

At this point in NASCAR I think if any driver get seriously injured in the future it will be because the wrong part of the car gets into the fence. It just rips the cars to shreds.

 

[Shaneus]

This is only the 2nd time in recent memory I can think of an engine coming out of a car. The other was Elliott Sadler's crash at Pocono. Both were extremely violent crashes.

Ah, okay. I really wouldn't have known, we honestly don't get any NASCAR coverage down here in Australia at all :/

 

[Vicious]

Reposting some of the images from the other thread, plus some others:

 

[thefro]

At this point in NASCAR I think if any driver get seriously injured in the future it will be because the wrong part of the car gets into the fence. It just rips the cars to shreds.

That's exactly what happened to Wheldon at Vegas. I think NASCAR thinks they'll be fine because they have a roof on their cars, but that's not always going to be the case. Larson's really lucky he's alive with his legs intact.

Obviously the fences need to be upgraded on both sides, to protect the drives and the fans. And they need to change the restictor plate racing as well so there's not these 20+ car wrecks all the time.

 

[TylerD]

Stewart won the Atlanta SX. Villopoto 2nd, Millsaps 3rd. First win for Stewart in 350 days and moving him into 3rd all time with 45 total wins.

 

[Dead Man]

Damn, horrible shit.

Seems like the only really safe thing to do will not be popular, move the spectators back further.

 

[stewy]

The amount of force that wheel hit with must have been incredible. Even with speed scrubbed off it had to be going over 100mph. And I think the wheel/tire itself weighs over 65lbs, not to mention all the extra bits and pieces hanging off it.

I've been saying they need to move the grandstands back at these big tracks for ages now. I cringe every time they show a long shot with fans walking along the fences, and security guards posted along the posts with their backs to the track.

Something I saw at a local track here makes a lot of sense. The standard wall/catchfence up against the track. Then about a 15-foot (or whatever distance seems appropriate) empty space where there is no access. Then another fence, gap for a walkway, and then the grandstands.

You'll still risk something flying over the fence (which may be what happened here), but moving the fans a bit further away from these heavy stock cars traveling at 200mph can only be a good thing. A fan death was/is really only a matter of time, especially with these rule packages that have resulted in just about every single superspeedway race ending in some sort of melee.

 

[Vicious]

 

[digita1alchemy]

Damn, horrible shit.

Seems like the only really safe thing to do will not be popular, move the spectators back further.

This is the most obvious thing to do, I think. NASCAR's been lucky as hell that no fans have been killed (yet) from cars flying into the fence on the plate tracks. In addition to Bobby Allison, Carl Edwards and Geoff Bodine's similar crashes, there was also Neil Bonnett's crash at Talladega in 1993: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtiEszttyiQ. Bonnett was such a bad ass that he went up to the TV booth afterward and called the rest of the race. I think Ricky Craven flew into the fence as well in his 1996 Talladega crash, but it was on a part of the track with no grandstand:

 

[Dead Man]

The amount of force that wheel hit with must have been incredible. Even with speed scrubbed off it had to be going over 100mph. And I think the wheel/tire itself weighs over 65lbs, not to mention all the extra bits and pieces hanging off it.

I've been saying they need to move the grandstands back at these big tracks for ages now. I cringe every time they show a long shot with fans walking along the fences, and security guards posted along the posts with their backs to the track.

Something I saw at a local track here makes a lot of sense. The standard wall/catchfence up against the track. Then about a 15-foot (or whatever distance seems appropriate) empty space where there is no access. Then another fence, gap for a walkway, and then the grandstands.

You'll still risk something flying over the fence (which may be what happened here), but moving the fans a bit further away from these heavy stock cars traveling at 200mph can only be a good thing. A fan death was/is really only a matter of time, especially with these rule packages that have resulted in just about every single superspeedway race ending in some sort of melee.

Yeah, that's a pretty good idea I think. That or move all the spectators and stands to the infield so the forces of crashes would be away from them rather than towards them.

This is the most obvious thing to do, I think. NASCAR's been lucky as hell that no fans have been killed (yet) from cars flying into the fence on the plate tracks. In addition to Bobby Allison, Carl Edwards and Geoff Bodine's similar crashes, there was also Neil Bonnett's crash at Talladega in 1993: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtiEszttyiQ. Bonnett was such a bad ass that he went up to the TV booth afterward and called the rest of the race. I think Ricky Craven flew into the fence as well in his 1996 Talladega crash, but it was on a part of the track with no grandstand.

Holy crap at that Bonnett crash.

 

[rangersfan414]

This IMO is the worst crash of all time:

http://youtu.be/ZVE8H1JdX2g?t=16s

 

[Shaneus]

This IMO is the worst crash of all time:

http://youtu.be/ZVE8H1JdX2g?t=16s

Jesus, that's all kinds of fucked up. Was that the same track where this most recent thing happened?

 

[rangersfan414]

Jesus, that's all kinds of fucked up. Was that the same track where this most recent thing happened?

Yup, that was at Daytona too, but way back in the day during the 60s I believe.
NASCAR was nowhere near as safe as it is now back then.

 

[Charlie McCarthy]

Ah, okay. I really wouldn't have known, we honestly don't get any NASCAR coverage down here in Australia at all :/

Its shown on One sometimes in the early hours of the morning. I think the coverage only started because Marcus Ambrose is in it.

I know NASCAR has alot of similar crashes to this but this one is really bad. I am really surprised that more deaths don't happen in NASCAR, being on ovals with no room to move, it only ever takes one tiny mistake from one driver to start of a huge chain reaction like this.

 

[Chris R]

So it looks like nobody died this time. Problem is that it isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of when if nothing changes. I don't have any suggestions as to what needs to change to prevent this from happening again though.

 

[Charlie McCarthy]

So it looks like nobody died this time. Problem is that it isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of when if nothing changes. I don't have any suggestions as to what needs to change to prevent this from happening again though.

I think the only thing to stop this is to stop racing on ovals altogether and I don't think that would ever happen as it seems a big part of it.

Racing cars/bikes at speed and in close proximity will always have an element of danger attached to it

 

[NihonTiger90]

The amount of force that wheel hit with must have been incredible. Even with speed scrubbed off it had to be going over 100mph. And I think the wheel/tire itself weighs over 65lbs, not to mention all the extra bits and pieces hanging off it.

I've been saying they need to move the grandstands back at these big tracks for ages now. I cringe every time they show a long shot with fans walking along the fences, and security guards posted along the posts with their backs to the track.

Something I saw at a local track here makes a lot of sense. The standard wall/catchfence up against the track. Then about a 15-foot (or whatever distance seems appropriate) empty space where there is no access. Then another fence, gap for a walkway, and then the grandstands.

You'll still risk something flying over the fence (which may be what happened here), but moving the fans a bit further away from these heavy stock cars traveling at 200mph can only be a good thing. A fan death was/is really only a matter of time, especially with these rule packages that have resulted in just about every single superspeedway race ending in some sort of melee.

Indianapolis has something like this on the front stretch.

 

[charlesthefirst]

I think the only thing to stop this is to stop racing on ovals altogether and I don't think that would ever happen as it seems a big part of it.

Racing cars/bikes at speed and in close proximity will always have an element of danger attached to it

Obviously, NASCAR isn't going to stop racing on ovals, as only 2 races would remain! Oval racing is also the most popular form of racing in the United States. Chances are, if you have a local race track, it's going to be an oval.

The simplest solution is to move crowd away from the track, and maybe make the catch fences higher. With attendance dropping at tracks across the country, this shouldn't even be much of a difficult adjustment! Also, these types of accidents generally arise out of the pack racing that has defined Daytona and Talladega over the last 20+ years. Unfortunately, if you take away the restrictor plates, you will be dealing with some extremely dangerous speeds, (legend has it that Rusty Wallace hit 228 in an unrestricted cup car at Talladega back in 2004) and that creates a whole new set of safety concerns. Pack racing can be attributed to the death of Dan Wheldon back in 2011, and Indycar has more or less solved their pack racing problems by reducing downforce, forcing the drivers to lift in corners, and making the handling of a car more of a factor. Unfortunately, stock cars don't create very much downforce as it is, so this solution isn't really viable for NASCAR. If NASCAR could find a way to make handling and driver ability a factor at Daytona and Talladega, they could end pack racing there and help eliminate some of the danger to drivers and fans.

 

[Salacious Crumb]

This IMO is the worst crash of all time:

http://youtu.be/ZVE8H1JdX2g?t=16s

Maybe in NASCAR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955_Le_Mans_disaster

 

[Shaneus]

Its shown on One sometimes in the early hours of the morning. I think the coverage only started because Marcus Ambrose is in it.

I know NASCAR has alot of similar crashes to this but this one is really bad. I am really surprised that more deaths don't happen in NASCAR, being on ovals with no room to move, it only ever takes one tiny mistake from one driver to start of a huge chain reaction like this.

That's the thing. Because there's comparatively very few tracks that aren't ovals, the cars are basically going flat stick the whole time, so whenever an accident happens, it's almost always massive. Look at any incident where two V8 Supercars are jostling each other. Maybe one ends up sideways into a wall or a stack of tyres and they walk out unscathed.

I have no idea where the fascination came from with seeing cars of different types drive around in circles or ovals for ages, but it confuses the hell out of me. Can anyone give me a rough idea of how many round/oval (or thereabouts) tracks there are on this (or last) year's calendar? I honestly don't know and am genuinely curious.

If any of you guys here might be able to answer why it's so popular, I'd be grateful of that, too. I seriously don't want to hang shit, I'm just trying to see where another culture is coming from


PS. 83 spectators?!?!?! Fucking hell.

 

[Dead Man]

That's the thing. Because there's comparatively very few tracks that aren't ovals, the cars are basically going flat stick the whole time, so whenever an accident happens, it's almost always massive. Look at any incident where two V8 Supercars are jostling each other. Maybe one ends up sideways into a wall or a stack of tyres and they walk out unscathed.

I have no idea where the fascination came from with seeing cars of different types drive around in circles or ovals for ages, but it confuses the hell out of me. Can anyone give me a rough idea of how many round/oval (or thereabouts) tracks there are on this (or last) year's calendar? I honestly don't know and am genuinely curious.

If any of you guys here might be able to answer why it's so popular, I'd be grateful of that, too. I seriously don't want to hang shit, I'm just trying to see where another culture is coming from


PS. 83 spectators?!?!?! Fucking hell.

I don't know why it is so popular, but NASCAR started from bootleggers racing on the beach, so narrow ovals is where it became popular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytona_Beach_Road_Course

 

[Jezbollah]

First, holy shit at that wheel hub photo.

I was thinking of this last night of how they can get around the issue of this (because let's put it this way, they're not going to move fans back (and thus reducing spectator capacity), they can only get rid of the doors in the fences (that seems a weak point and also causes "snagging" to twist the cars around if they're skimming along the fence in the crash) - have the access points going under the fences.. also, make the catch fencing more multilayered - and also have some kind of transparent netting above the spectators to dissipate the energy of anything that does get thrown over the fences.

Also. Wheel tethers. Put fucking wheel tethers on the cars.

 

[Dead Man]

So is there any reason the spectators can not be on the inside of the oval at these tracks? I don't know how they are built, and obviously it would cost a lot of money to swap all the stands and team facilities, but is there any structural reason against it?

 

[Dilly]

Some kind of plastic has been mentioned in the past, but it's tricky. There's not a lot of transparent materials that can resist the kind of blows you get from a heavy stock car smashing into a retaining wall at 180-190 mph.

I do wonder if you could do a double-fence, one higher than the other. Or something like the front stretch at Indy, which has a green space between where fans can stand and where the catch fence is.

I don't get why it would be possible to just have the fence like it is now encased in some plastic or something.

These fences are dangerous, it isn't the first time it made an accident worse.

 

[RayStorm]

So is there any reason the spectators can not be on the inside of the oval at these tracks? I don't know how they are built, and obviously it would cost a lot of money to swap all the stands and team facilities, but is there any structural reason against it?

View, from the outside you can probably see the whole track or at least significant portions of it. If you put the stands on the inside you would only be able to see a very small part of the track.

 

[Dead Man]

View, from the outside you can probably see the whole track or at least significant portions of it. If you put the stands on the inside you would only be able to see a very small part of the track.

Of course, didn't think of that.

 

[stewy]

Not to mention that some of the tracks in question are less than a mile long. Sure, there's an argument to made for places like Daytona, Talladega and Indianapolis. But something like, say, Bristol, which is a half-mile, would never have the capacity to hold a proper crowd.

As for the question of why it's interesting to watch cars "go round in circles," I think the question itself unfairly generalizes the whole idea of oval-track racing. For one thing, at most oval tracks the fan can normally see the whole course, something that's generally impossible at a road course.

Also, just because all of these tracks are "ovals" doesn't mean they drive exactly the same. Track length, banking, and layout make for very different driving experiences and viewing experiences. Check out one of the NASCAR video games if you can - drive Talladega, Indianapolis, Bristol, Martinsville, Phoenix, and Charlotte. All very different tracks even though they're all ovals.

I will say I'd love to see more road course events on the NASCAR calendar. They actually put on one hell of a show when they're not driving in circles

I agree that inherent nature of oval racing is probably more dangerous for fans sitting outside the track, but let's be honest, going to more road courses isn't really a fix. The worst crash in history in terms of spectator injury and death is still Le Mans, I believe. We watched Alan McNish almost go through the fence there a couple years ago as well. And didn't someone actually leave the track down one of the long straights that race as well? Motorsports are just dangerous for all involved. But mothballing oval tracks isn't really going to change that much in NASCAR's case.

 

[Shaneus]

The point I was more getting at (the curiosity about why there are so many ovalish tracks and their fascination thereof was more a curiosity) was that the cars basically never have to use the brake except for when pitting (as far as I know). Obviously that's a lot more dangerous compared to tracks that have corners of varying angles that require a lot more braking, mostly because cars are tuned to within an inch of their life for retaining traction because cornering speed really isn't a consideration that's needed.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Holy shit that 1955 Le Mans wreck is insane.

 

[charlesthefirst]

Some of you guys really need to stay in your own lanes, because you are making yourselves look extremely ignorant talking about topics you clearly know almost nothing about.

For one thing, NASCAR IS oval racing. Of the 36 races scheduled for this year, 34 are on ovals. Ovals are not going anywhere. Also, some of you are over simplifying what oval racing is. At most ovals, the drivers are not simply going flat out the entire time. Daytona and Talladega are unique in that drivers simply pin the throttle and steer. Most require at least some lifting, and some do require braking. At almost every other track the cars do not maintain speeds like they do at Daytona and Talladega, and they also do not run in big packs, which is the heart of the problem. At other big tracks like Auto Club Speedway and Charlotte Motor Speedway, the field tends to spread out, making accidents less frequent, and they allow the drivers more opportunity to avoid the wreck.

Oval racing is popular in the United States for several reasons. For one, like I said earlier, it accounts for most of the racing that goes on in this country. It also allows you to follow the whole race, rather than just a series of corners. It also creates a feeling that the drivers are racing each other, rather than the track. Oval racing facilitates a much more "man on man" type of racing that generates a feeling that anything could happen. Your driver is always one adjustment or one yellow flag from getting back into contention for the win.

Also, someone mentioned putting spectators inside the tracks. This already happens. There is a huge culture of camping in the infield, however infield seats suck because you cant see anything. At Indianapolis they have a grandstand on the infield on the front stretch, but it sucks because all you can see is the track directly in front of you, defeating one of the great things about oval racing. Most track owners are also not in any economic position to build 80,000 new seats inside their tracks. There also short tracks like Martinsville and Bristol that barely have room for the teams' haulers, let alone grandstands full of fans.

Like I said before, move the fans back and away from the action, and your problem is solved. Well, that and eliminating the pack racing at Daytona and Talladega.

 

[Big Takeover]

That's the thing. Because there's comparatively very few tracks that aren't ovals, the cars are basically going flat stick the whole time, so whenever an accident happens, it's almost always massive. Look at any incident where two V8 Supercars are jostling each other. Maybe one ends up sideways into a wall or a stack of tyres and they walk out unscathed.

I have no idea where the fascination came from with seeing cars of different types drive around in circles or ovals for ages, but it confuses the hell out of me. Can anyone give me a rough idea of how many round/oval (or thereabouts) tracks there are on this (or last) year's calendar? I honestly don't know and am genuinely curious.

If any of you guys here might be able to answer why it's so popular, I'd be grateful of that, too. I seriously don't want to hang shit, I'm just trying to see where another culture is coming from


PS. 83 spectators?!?!?! Fucking hell.

Why oval racing is popular here is really about history. You can't just look at today, or the last 20 years and ask why is oval racing popular in the US. Indianapolis is the blueprint for racing in America. For the last 100 years it's captured the country's attention. Everything sprouted from it's success.

Conversely, road racing was born in France, and that's the style that captured european hearts. Of course it was eventually imported to the US, but it was just that - an import. It really wasn't until post-WWII (50 years later) that American soldiers brought road racing to back to America from Europe.

 

[moojito]

So what with the big crash and the Danica Patrick on pole, I reckon this could be the most watched daytona 500 ever. It's been a long time since I've watched one from the start, for sure.

 

[rangersfan414]

So what with the big crash and the Danica Patrick on pole, I reckon this could be the most watched daytona 500 ever. It's been a long time since I've watched one from the start, for sure.

It's just alotta media hype. I always watch from the start, but it's kinda pointless cause they just cruise around and do green flag pitstops and nothing really happens til like lap 195.

 

[Parch]

There needs to be some sort of different design or safety upgrade to those catch fences so they don't cheese grate cars into pieces. It's really fortunate more weren't injured.

Sooo...
since Danica wins the pole, does that mean below average drivers in IndyCar are the best drivers in NASCAR?

 

[rangersfan414]

I bet Danica doesn't even lead a lap this race.

 

[Chris R]

I bet Danica doesn't even lead a lap this race.

Nah she can probably lead one or two at the start. The inside line only falls apart after a few laps.

 

[Vicious]

Some of you guys really need to stay in your own lanes, because you are making yourselves look extremely ignorant talking about topics you clearly know almost nothing about.

For one thing, NASCAR IS oval racing. Of the 36 races scheduled for this year, 34 are on ovals. Ovals are not going anywhere. Also, some of you are over simplifying what oval racing is. At most ovals, the drivers are not simply going flat out the entire time. Daytona and Talladega are unique in that drivers simply pin the throttle and steer. Most require at least some lifting, and some do require braking. At almost every other track the cars do not maintain speeds like they do at Daytona and Talladega, and they also do not run in big packs, which is the heart of the problem. At other big tracks like Auto Club Speedway and Charlotte Motor Speedway, the field tends to spread out, making accidents less frequent, and they allow the drivers more opportunity to avoid the wreck.

Oval racing is popular in the United States for several reasons. For one, like I said earlier, it accounts for most of the racing that goes on in this country. It also allows you to follow the whole race, rather than just a series of corners. It also creates a feeling that the drivers are racing each other, rather than the track. Oval racing facilitates a much more "man on man" type of racing that generates a feeling that anything could happen. Your driver is always one adjustment or one yellow flag from getting back into contention for the win.

Also, someone mentioned putting spectators inside the tracks. This already happens. There is a huge culture of camping in the infield, however infield seats suck because you cant see anything. At Indianapolis they have a grandstand on the infield on the front stretch, but it sucks because all you can see is the track directly in front of you, defeating one of the great things about oval racing. Most track owners are also not in any economic position to build 80,000 new seats inside their tracks. There also short tracks like Martinsville and Bristol that barely have room for the teams' haulers, let alone grandstands full of fans.

Like I said before, move the fans back and away from the action, and your problem is solved. Well, that and eliminating the pack racing at Daytona and Talladega.

Just quoting this because it's a good post.

 

[TylerD]

Winning pole for a super speedway restrictor plate race is pretty much meaningless.

Thank God no one died yesterday. Would have been so much worse had it been The 500 and the story would surely be different.

-------

Apart from the horrific crash yesterday, I thought the racing was pretty good and I was very impressed how Travis Pastrana was able to mix it up late in the race. Congrats to his top 10 finish, the guy is as nice as can be.

 

[rangersfan414]

Nah she can probably lead one or two at the start. The inside line only falls apart after a few laps.

Well she was on the pole for her duel and led 0 laps. I'm gonna be holding my breath as she starts falling back through the pack hoping she doesn't wreck anybody :O