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One Last Time: Episode III Cover Story
- Thread starter ManaByte
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ManaByte
Member
The author of the Time review was just on CNN talking about it. He said it was very good and at times moving and emotional. He said it'll appeal to older fans, but it's structured in a way with a well defined beginning, middle, and end that people who haven't seen the first two will enjoy it. He also said it does the PT justice.
IAmtheFMan
Member
There's a paragraph in the review saying how Sith mixes the best elements of ANH, ESB, and ROTJ and it works really great.
Methinks that it's almost time we got an official thread...
Methinks that it's almost time we got an official thread...
Prince of Space
Banned
Yeah, just read it earlier today. Please don't suck, Ani!
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
Scrow said:
...Star Wars which has ALWAYS been Lucas' "modern-day mythology", which Lucas based on classic themes, classic stories, and classic films. The comparisons are appropriate, even if the execution hasn't been Oscar-worthy.
Glad to hear almost full on positive impressions from EP3, still not getting my hopes up too much for it though. Looking forward to it now which i wasn't a year or so ago.
Shame whatever good it does for the series to makeup for its tarnished rep due to Ep1+2 will be gone when the extra series's come along and probably suck massively.
Shame whatever good it does for the series to makeup for its tarnished rep due to Ep1+2 will be gone when the extra series's come along and probably suck massively.
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
Amir0x said:
Please don't post edited quotes. I think the original got the point across just fine.
The comparisons are appropriate, even if the execution hasn't been Oscar-worthy.
galeninjapan
Banned
If you are able to compare the prequels to Shakespeare, you are missing the whole point of Shakespeare.
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
galeninjapan said:
You're missing the point. It's not a comparison of QUALITY, it's a comparison of THEMES.
Macbeth, Brutus, and Titus are Shakespearean tragedy -- not the fantastic Joseph Campbell myth stuff that Lucas is interested in. So I don't see how the comparison is particularly relevant.
Who really cares about this review? Didn't Time hump Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones as well? Ahhhh, the price of an exclusive cover story...
Who really cares about this review? Didn't Time hump Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones as well? Ahhhh, the price of an exclusive cover story...
It's funny because you *can* just ignore the first two movies...
for the most part all the details alluded to in the first trilogy is shown in this last movie, with the idea that this even had to be a trilogy actually a really contrived one, pandering to money making than anything else.
for the most part all the details alluded to in the first trilogy is shown in this last movie, with the idea that this even had to be a trilogy actually a really contrived one, pandering to money making than anything else.
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
Zaptruder said:
Lucas himself has said that the "story" that the prequels tell is distrubted among the three movies thusly: 20% in Episode I, 20% in Episode II, and the remaining 60% in Episode III, and the rest is exposition and filler.
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
border said:
Because Episode III is a tragedy. That's what the Time magazine article is about, Episode III, and that's why the author compares it to Shakespearean tragedy. Lucas was also inspired by sci-fi serials of the 1940's and 50's, by World War II movies, Kurosawa, and others, so is it really that hard to imagine he'd draw from other sources as well?
I for one not only liked the PT as a whole, but feel that watching the first two DID enhance this movie (well, story at least so far). There are a couple of things that exist in the PT that without "future" knowledge of the OT can come as a surprise.
Palpatine for me is the biggest of these. The only reason we suspected him of anything in the PT is because we knew how he ended up in the OT. But if you have someone going into the PT first, they have no reason to suspect anything of him really until Ep3. They have no reason to suspect he is the one behind the trade federation blockade or the separatist movement, and the only reason all of us KNEW Sidious and Palpatine were the same person (which many people didn't even really believe after Ep1) was because we knew how Palpatine looked in Ep6 which is the exact same way Sidious looked in Ep1+2. Unfortunately in execution, the whole mystery of Palpidious was lost on us and seemed quite dumb. But I do admire Lucas for sticking by his guns on it, because anyone who goes in and watches the movies in chronological order is in for what will probably be at least a mild shock.
Obi-Wan dying in the OT. Again, this has been given considerably more impact now with the PT. Obi-Wan is a main god damn character. He will have been alive for four of the movies and the only character who appears in 4 consecutive movies. Again, for people watching it for the first time chronologically, to have this hero go for four straight movies and then die (well, not really) is a pretty big deal. more so than just a guy who shows up and dies in the first one.
in kind of a clever but gross setup, it clearly adds more anticipation in the whole luke leia thing.. well, except for the few kisses. but to have them bickering and fighting and all of the coincidence but saying the entire time "SHE'S YOUR SISTER!!" could be kind of cool for the first time.
Like I said, I admire Lucas for doing the PT the way he did. Not necessarily the direction or dialogue, but for the story. He told a true beginning. Not a "prequel" in the sense that it is recommended to watch the first series first, but a true prologue in the sense that watching it first will certainly change and IMHO enhance the first saga. By my count you only lose one surprise.. vader being luke's father.. however you have that replaced by the entire time knowing that Vader is hunting down his son and Luke doesn't know it but you do.. that is pretty cool in and of itself.
unfortunately, even my daughter won't really be able to experience the saga in its chronological order. I did start with episode 1 and 2 for her, but she has also already been through the OT (how could I not show that to her????). But maybe her children (20+ years from now) will be able to see it in that order.. it will be interesting to see what that reaction would be.
Palpatine for me is the biggest of these. The only reason we suspected him of anything in the PT is because we knew how he ended up in the OT. But if you have someone going into the PT first, they have no reason to suspect anything of him really until Ep3. They have no reason to suspect he is the one behind the trade federation blockade or the separatist movement, and the only reason all of us KNEW Sidious and Palpatine were the same person (which many people didn't even really believe after Ep1) was because we knew how Palpatine looked in Ep6 which is the exact same way Sidious looked in Ep1+2. Unfortunately in execution, the whole mystery of Palpidious was lost on us and seemed quite dumb. But I do admire Lucas for sticking by his guns on it, because anyone who goes in and watches the movies in chronological order is in for what will probably be at least a mild shock.
Obi-Wan dying in the OT. Again, this has been given considerably more impact now with the PT. Obi-Wan is a main god damn character. He will have been alive for four of the movies and the only character who appears in 4 consecutive movies. Again, for people watching it for the first time chronologically, to have this hero go for four straight movies and then die (well, not really) is a pretty big deal. more so than just a guy who shows up and dies in the first one.
in kind of a clever but gross setup, it clearly adds more anticipation in the whole luke leia thing.. well, except for the few kisses. but to have them bickering and fighting and all of the coincidence but saying the entire time "SHE'S YOUR SISTER!!" could be kind of cool for the first time.
Like I said, I admire Lucas for doing the PT the way he did. Not necessarily the direction or dialogue, but for the story. He told a true beginning. Not a "prequel" in the sense that it is recommended to watch the first series first, but a true prologue in the sense that watching it first will certainly change and IMHO enhance the first saga. By my count you only lose one surprise.. vader being luke's father.. however you have that replaced by the entire time knowing that Vader is hunting down his son and Luke doesn't know it but you do.. that is pretty cool in and of itself.
unfortunately, even my daughter won't really be able to experience the saga in its chronological order. I did start with episode 1 and 2 for her, but she has also already been through the OT (how could I not show that to her????). But maybe her children (20+ years from now) will be able to see it in that order.. it will be interesting to see what that reaction would be.
galeninjapan
Banned
Zaptruder said:
Fixed! :lol so true
I look back on the last 6 years and wonder why Lucas even made Episode 1 and Episode 2, if the bulk of the story was in Episode 3 (which I do not believe). Maybe he had an itch for a crappy sub plot about trade agrememnts? Or maybe he wanted to create a badd-ass character only to kill him off so quickly (Darth Maul). Or maybe he wanted to reveal the mysterious Bobba Fett's orgins ( a clone!? Bobba Fett is a FREAKIN CLONE???!!?).
If the bulk of the story was in Episode 3, Just fucking make Episode 3 into 3 badd ass parts!
ah yes.. the trade federation blockade... well, apparently you don't care how the empire came to power, but many of us do. To many of us it is arguably a more interesting story than how anakin turned to vader. Anakin was a troubled person who was eventually turned to the darkside.. oooohhhh a story..galeninjapan said:
the empire on the other hand, and how a relatively working and peaceful democracy can be turned into an autocratic empire in a span of less than 15 years... THAT is an interesting story.. and the fact that it all started with some stupid out of the way trade dispute organized extensively by one individual...
arguably without the creation of the empire there would have been no need for vader or any sith apprentice.
clearly lucas focused on the more interesting story and didn't just cater to the vasic action whores who basically wanted nothing but action for the sake of action (re: jedi which would probably be universally loved as the best if not for the ewoks).
galeninjapan
Banned
borghe said:ah yes.. the trade federation blockade... well, apparently you don't care how the empire came to power, but many of us do. To many of us it is arguably a more interesting story than how anakin turned to vader. Anakin was a troubled person who was eventually turned to the darkside.. oooohhhh a story..
the empire on the other hand, and how a relatively working and peaceful democracy can be turned into an autocratic empire in a span of less than 15 years... THAT is an interesting story.. and the fact that it all started with some stupid out of the way trade dispute organized extensively by one individual...
arguably without the creation of the empire there would have been no need for vader or any sith apprentice.
clearly lucas focused on the more interesting story and didn't just cater to the vasic action whores who basically wanted nothing but action for the sake of action (re: jedi which would probably be universally loved as the best if not for the ewoks).
I do care how the empire came to power, I really do. I used to be a huge Star Wars fan. But, you're telling me, Lucas could not think of anyhting more exciting than Trade agrements?
As for your action comment, I like the original movie's action better. I am not an "action-fiend" I prefer the stories to action, but I think a combination of the lame dialouge and the UN-interesting story just make them bad movies.
eh.. I disagree.. well, to a point.. I think that Ep1's part of the rise of the empire story was played out pretty bad, but it did lead into Ep2 which I felt it was done perfectly in. ironically I still think Ep1 is a better movie, but as far as the rise of the empire portion AOTC had a much better part in it.
and for the record Ep3 plays off of both episodes beautifully. that entire part of the story crescendo's perfectly in Ep3 which would have CONSIDERABLY less effect had the previous parts of the story not been present...
of course Ep1's story in that regards could have been better, or definitely more interesting... but AOTC I don't think could have been done any better in regards to that.
and for the record Ep3 plays off of both episodes beautifully. that entire part of the story crescendo's perfectly in Ep3 which would have CONSIDERABLY less effect had the previous parts of the story not been present...
of course Ep1's story in that regards could have been better, or definitely more interesting... but AOTC I don't think could have been done any better in regards to that.
Christoff Yurievich
Member
either you saw a totally different movie than I did or I haven't watched close enough.Zaptruder said:
ok, not perfect.. it wasn't really a copout so much as explained very poorly. a copout to me means that it was a cheap thing to do.. he needed some sort of civil war to fuel the take over.. he just should have maybe taken 3 minutes out of that love story (probably the sand getting everywhere monologue) and devoted it to explaining why the separatists were separating and whatnot.border said:
Well it is a cheap thing to do -- that's what makes it a copout. You say you want to see how the Republic unravels, but all they do is throw in some separatists out of nowhere. Their history, motivation, and leadership are never remotely explained. It's just a shoddy device to kickstart the Clone Wars....it's the war that destroys everything and we have no idea what it's actually about. It's like if your history book said "The Civil War started because some people in the South wanted to leave the US". Huh?
"A lot can happen in ten years" is just a copout for the copout. Some stuff went on between the films but it can't be explained or encapsulated somehow?
At best the prequels are chronicling Palpatine's rise to power....how the Republic came to be destroyed still seems really vague.
"A lot can happen in ten years" is just a copout for the copout. Some stuff went on between the films but it can't be explained or encapsulated somehow?
At best the prequels are chronicling Palpatine's rise to power....how the Republic came to be destroyed still seems really vague.
ManaByte
Member
People who don't pay attention to the movies...
In Episode I Darth Sidious was controlling the Trade Federation and telling them what to do. Sidious told them to blockade Naboo. But Sidious is really Senator Palpatine. Palpatine knew that if he created a crisis by blockading a soverign planet he could use it to knock the current Chancellor out of power and place himself in power by bossing around the Trade Federation who controlled the beurocrats that decided who was made Chancellor.
So Sidious had the Trade Federation blockade Naboo. As Palpatine he convinced the Queen of Naboo to demand the senate vote for a new Chancellor. When Palpatine was nominated all he had to do was, as Sidious, tell the Trade Federation to have the beurocrats make him Chancellor.
The entire "trade dispute" in Episode I was just Palpatine placing himself in control of the entire Republic.
In Episode II they introduce Count Dooku, a former Jedi, who was the Separatist leader. Well, at the end of the movie you find out that Count Dooku was Darth Tyrannus and the apprentice of Darth Sidious and that everything was going according to plan. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Darth Sidious used his apprentice to spark a rebellion aganist the Republic to start the War that Palpatine will use to gain complete and total control over the Republic in order to eventually end it and declare himself Emperor.
That's where the Separatists came from, Palpatine/Sidious used Dooku/Tyrannus to begin the Separatists.
In Episode I Darth Sidious was controlling the Trade Federation and telling them what to do. Sidious told them to blockade Naboo. But Sidious is really Senator Palpatine. Palpatine knew that if he created a crisis by blockading a soverign planet he could use it to knock the current Chancellor out of power and place himself in power by bossing around the Trade Federation who controlled the beurocrats that decided who was made Chancellor.
So Sidious had the Trade Federation blockade Naboo. As Palpatine he convinced the Queen of Naboo to demand the senate vote for a new Chancellor. When Palpatine was nominated all he had to do was, as Sidious, tell the Trade Federation to have the beurocrats make him Chancellor.
The entire "trade dispute" in Episode I was just Palpatine placing himself in control of the entire Republic.
In Episode II they introduce Count Dooku, a former Jedi, who was the Separatist leader. Well, at the end of the movie you find out that Count Dooku was Darth Tyrannus and the apprentice of Darth Sidious and that everything was going according to plan. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Darth Sidious used his apprentice to spark a rebellion aganist the Republic to start the War that Palpatine will use to gain complete and total control over the Republic in order to eventually end it and declare himself Emperor.
That's where the Separatists came from, Palpatine/Sidious used Dooku/Tyrannus to begin the Separatists.
Again, that is all Palpatine related...it doesn't explain a lick of why the separatist movement has any members or momentum (what it is that actually caused the rift in the government). That's what seems unsatisfying. Pointing to Dooku and saying "That's it!" is like saying General Lee caused the Civil War.
They don't have to explain Dooku's separatist recruitment process, but I would like to know why everyone is leaving. Generally speaking civil wars don't occur until circumstances are at their absolute worst for both sides. The opposition force is very large....so why are they all defecting?
If you don't mind just totally glossing over that and saying "Oh well Dooku just whipped everyone into a frenzy somehow" then it's okay, but don't deny it as a copout. Part of what makes the big battles so lifeless and lacking in resonance is that it seems like they're being fought over nothing or over something inconsequential.
If you don't mind just totally glossing over that and saying "Oh well Dooku just whipped everyone into a frenzy somehow" then it's okay, but don't deny it as a copout. Part of what makes the big battles so lifeless and lacking in resonance is that it seems like they're being fought over nothing or over something inconsequential.
I actually agree with border on this one.. lucas didn't explain the whole separatist thing very well. all I got from the actual story is that there were unrest and there were a bunch of greedy heads who wanted to rule in a new government.
I mean in the end the fall of the republic WAS all about palpatine and his rise to power.. and that story is told perfectly fine.. however the story behind the separatists was told rather poorly..
and they could have stuck in like 2-3 minutes just explaining it. not even that much. like a minute explanation with like 4 sentences would probably have done the trick.
still though, I was fine with it. not going to split hairs about what is already done, and I know it plays out beautifully in the final movie so all is good.
I mean in the end the fall of the republic WAS all about palpatine and his rise to power.. and that story is told perfectly fine.. however the story behind the separatists was told rather poorly..
and they could have stuck in like 2-3 minutes just explaining it. not even that much. like a minute explanation with like 4 sentences would probably have done the trick.
still though, I was fine with it. not going to split hairs about what is already done, and I know it plays out beautifully in the final movie so all is good.
it doesn't quite work that way.Bacon said:
basically even right before he turns he is all ok with taking palpatine in who he now knows is a sith lord. where he turns is that mace is basically unwilling to accept keeping palpatine alive as an option. anakin is now conflicted between doing what is right (killing palps) and losing the secret to keeping padme alive forever. so he stops mace by lobbing off his hand. at this point it is palps who kills mace. by this point, anakin is just fucked and really has no choice but to join palps, because after betraying and causing the death of a fellow jedi, the darkness is the only thing left that will take him
all REALLY well done in my book.. lucas walked a very fine line between making anakin's turn all obvious with "well you could see he was going to turn a mile away" and making it come from out of nowhere and not really making any sense, like you are worrying about. needless to say, IMHO he pulled it of wonderfully.
I never got that from the story.ManaByte said:
I always just got that basically with the amputation of mace and the resultant death, that the dark side finally took over anakin. "twisted by the dark side young skywalker has become." it had nothing to do with palpatine convincing anakin of anything after that point. it was anakin sucumbing to the dark side out of greed and selfishness and the dark side twisting him even further. at least that's what I took from the story. after his turn to the dark side palpatine didn't need to convince him of anything. actually by that point anakin had his own agenda, namely overthrowing palpatine and ruling the galaxy with padme and their child.
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