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[Quasar]

These are all very easily verified facts. I'm not sure where there's room for disagreement. Opinion doesn't really factor in.

Going to admit I'm surprised given 4k projection in cinemas. Did not think they'd upscale it for 4k projection given how it was used as a forward looking film with its HFR.

Of course I'm just wondering how long before I can buy the HFR version on disc. Thats the reason
I never bought the blurays.

 

[Flandy]

#TeamRigby

 

[jeff_rigby]

A new HDMI 2.0 feature allows sending HDCP 2.2 encrypted multi-cast over the Lan to another TV on the home network. This is another feature supported because HDMI 2.0 has a LAN pin to support passing through the LAN to all local HDMI cable connected devices.

Since a HDMI 2.0 chip has a connection to the LAN it can be firmware updated and since they have confidence in the HDMI 2.2 encryption scheme they allow the HDMI stream to be multicast over the LAN where a "connected" TV can select that LAN input as a HDMI port and treat it as such much like DLNA servers are treated as Source Inputs on Samsung TVs which also treat RVU and Vidipath sources over the LAN as the same Source Inputs.

I expect Microsoft will announce 4K blu-ray on Windows 10 with standard blu-ray drives provided the Hardware has a newer dGPU or APU with TEE where the HDCP for HDMI 2 takes place. It's already been leaked as to what 4K playing requires but not that standard drives can be used.

This is a feature provided by Microsoft in Windows 10 and lacking in every other version of Windows. You have to buy third party support for the blu-ray drive or it comes with an OEM PC provided by the manufacturer.

Why is Microsoft now providing 1080P and 4K blu-ray support? It ties in with Game streaming, Vidipath, DVR support, ATSC 2.0, the elimination of the cable card allowing a Downloadable Security Scheme and 4K blu-ray digital bridge (in home streaming with Playready ND). Microsoft feels it will sell PCs and services....nearly everyone will need a PC, XB1 or PS4 for premium services.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Why is Microsoft now providing 4K blu-ray support?

Speculation about what may or may not happen != "now"

With Ultra HD Blu-ray pushed back to next year and details about hardware support, upcoming titles, etc. being scarce to the point of practically non-existent, I'd be surprised to hear an announcement from Microsoft next month.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Speculation about what may or may not happen != "now"

With Ultra HD Blu-ray pushed back to next year and details about hardware support, upcoming titles, etc. being scarce to the point of practically non-existent, I'd be surprised to hear an announcement from Microsoft next month.

Could you cite this. Samsung just released announced a 4K blu-ray player and 4K titles are shipping this month.

“PlayReady content keys and the unencrypted compressed and uncompressed video samples are never available outside of the devices Trusted Execution Environment (TEE) and secure video pipeline,” a Microsoft spokeswoman wrote in an email.

Again, HDCP takes place in the PS4 Southbridge which is the ARM SoC and TEE. Same for the XB1 and PCs (AMD) it's a ARM Trustzone SoC inside the APU or dGPU. A iOS or Android phone also has a ARM block which is trustzone controlled = TEE.

Playready ND which requires porting kit 3 for iOS and Android started shipping at the end of 2013. Playready ND is required for in home streaming of 1080P and 4K. There are proposals from Sony and Panasonic supporting 4K blu-ray digital bridge HDR and down converting to HD and UHD stream in home using Playready ND to mobile and Playready ND allows Miracast streaming from the handheld to a TV.

The AMD-Microsoft NDA for HEVC lapsed 6/2015

Phones and tablets that now support 4K and Microsoft has the October 6th Windows 10 media briefing.

 

[Lupin the Third]

Hotlinking not allowed on that image. Maybe rehost?

 

[Adam Tyner]

Could you cite this. Samsung just released a 4K blu-ray player and 4K titles are shipping this month.

If we're talking about Ultra HD Blu-ray, nothing you've posted is accurate.

In fact, no reputable source ever gave a clearer window than "holiday 2015", so I have no idea where you're getting October from. You're either making all of this up (which would pretty much be in keeping with your insistence on treating speculation as fact) or you're listening to the wrong people.

As far as citing sources, all of this came out of IFA in Berlin nearly a month ago, and any recap of the show will mention this. Here's a Sept. 12th article from USA TODAY (who, full disclosure, I work for):

In case you were curious about that Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray Disc player unveiled last week by Samsung at the IFA consumer electronics show, we finally have photos.

Samsung announced the product back on Sept. 3 at the trade show in Berlin, which if it arrives as expected in early 2016 would likely be the first UHD 4K Blu-ray Disc player to market. No pricing was announced.

An article on blu-ray.com from Sept. 3rd (the main site, outside the forums):

Also at IFA Samsung introduced its first 4K Blu-ray player, which is expected to arrive on the market in early 2016.

CNet, also from Sept. 3rd:

A Samsung product manager told CNET the device will launch in the first quarter instead of later this year because of a delay in setting the standards for UHD Blu-ray products.

The Digital Bits on Sept. 5th:

[We] wanted to quickly chime in here today with additional word on Ultra HD Blu-ray out of IFA in Berlin. We understand now that Samsung’s newly announced 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player is targeted for release in the 1st Quarter of 2016 (we’re hearing late January or February).

Fox is the only studio that's announced any titles, and they've also said they're targeting Q1. Again, this is from early last month:

Hanno Basse, chair of the UHD Alliance and CTO at Fox, who attended the press event for Samsung's new player commented: "We've made a lot of progress. We're getting close to finalizing our technical specifications, as well as our certification and logo programs. Since the announcement of the Alliance earlier this year, we've almost tripled our membership, and we now represent a large segment of the device and content industry from around the world. And we hope to share a lot more details in the coming months on the launch of our licensing program and the availability of new products in the market."

Again, not even a month ago, they hadn't even finalized the standards!

 

[jeff_rigby]

If we're talking about Ultra HD Blu-ray, nothing you've posted is accurate.

In fact, no reputable source ever gave a clearer window than "holiday 2015", so I have no idea where you're getting October from. You're either making all of this up (which would pretty much be in keeping with your insistence on treating speculation as fact) or you're listening to the wrong people.

As far as citing sources, all of this came out of IFA in Berlin nearly a month ago, and any recap of the show will mention this. Here's a Sept. 12th article from USA TODAY (who, full disclosure, I work for):

An article on blu-ray.com from Sept. 3rd (the main site, outside the forums):

CNet, also from Sept. 3rd:

The Digital Bits on Sept. 5th:

Fox is the only studio that's announced any titles, and they've also said they're targeting Q1. Again, this is from early last month:

Again, not even a month ago, they hadn't even finalized the standards!

The standards were finalized May 2015 almost 5 months ago and when I speculated Sony might announce is another month = 6 months. Thanks for the correction on the Samsung UHD player. It seems I'm too optimistic and you pessimistic. Yes I am speculating based on announced holiday 2015 which I took to be selling season (Early November), UHD disk ship dates (early to late October) and Playready 3/ND arriving in Windows 10 (October 20 is the usual ship date) My understanding is that the issue is not the UHD player but the various TEE implementations by Intel (Skylake APU), AMD APUs and dGPUs as well as Nvidia dGPUs. Game consoles have easier to implement DRM than PCs, in fact for the XB1 and PS4 it's very similar to handhelds that use Arm Trustzone and porting kits for those shipped in 2013 slightly before the XB1 and PS4 shipped. And in both cases it's a Firmware update to support UHD blu-ray.

As many have mentioned, Microsoft for Windows 10 and the XB1 and Sony for the PS4 can announce future support for UHD Blu-ray and increase sales for the XB1 and PS4 this season. Will they do this? I can understand not announcing it 2 years ago but now October or later this year? Is there something like a NDA that could be pushed forward?

With Playready DRM in the PS4 they can release ooVoo and Miracast and DLNA in Southbridge which I expect will come before UHD blu-ray and certainly before Digital bridge Playready ND in home streaming.

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

Alright so I'm a noob at this, but I've bought a 4K tv and I have a PS4. Can I just buy these 4K blu rays and start watching or do I need to do anything?

 

[Scrupulous]

The sooner we get 4k Blu Rays I'll upgrade my TV to 4K I would have done it already if the content was readily available.

 

[Adam Tyner]

The standards were finalized May 2015 almost 5 months ago

Clearly something's changed.

The chair of the UHD Alliance and the CTO of Fox said in September that the technical specifications weren't complete. A Samsung rep said the same thing at IFA. I'll believe that over a statement from May.

Yes I am speculating based on announced UHD disk ship dates

There are no announced UHD BD disc ship dates. You were wrong about this, just as you were wrong about there already being an Ultra HD Blu-ray player on the market (which is a baffling error for someone who speaks with such authority to make).

Alright so I'm a noob at this, but I've bought a 4K tv and I have a PS4. Can I just buy these 4K blu rays and start watching or do I need to do anything?

We don't know yet. jeff_rigby speculates that the PS4 may get a firmware update to allow for Ultra HD Blu-ray playback, but there's no definitive information one way or the other yet.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Clearly something's changed.

The chair of the UHD Alliance and the CTO of Fox said in September that the technical specifications weren't complete. A Samsung rep said the same thing at IFA. I'll believe that over a statement from May.

There are no announced UHD BD disc ship dates. You were wrong about this, just as you were wrong about there already being an Ultra HD Blu-ray player on the market (which is a baffling error for someone who speaks with such authority to make).

We don't know yet. jeff_rigby speculates that the PS4 may get a firmware update to allow for Ultra HD Blu-ray playback, but there's no definitive information one way or the other yet.

I think I see the date issues; The blu-ray spec was released 5 months ago but "The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) August 6th announced it will begin licensing 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray technology and expects discs to be available by the holidays. And production equipment to make 3 layer 66GB/layer disks started shipping 2013.

Fox and Sony are pushing the digital bridge and the specs/(input from content holders) for that plus HDR and downconverting were likely the holdup for the Final Spec. Since Playready ND is such a big part of this digital bridge, it may have required a content owner signoff for Microsoft to release Playready3/ND.

Edit: with further research, the first Samsung UHD blu-ray player will not have a digital bridge.

 

[jeff_rigby]

To support VR the PS4 can output a 60Hz, 90Hz and 120Hz Frame Rate which is one of the reasons it needed a custom HDMI port, the other being HDMI 2.a and maybe the coming HFR (High Frame Rate) UHD Blu-ray. Yes the PS4 will be a UHD Blu-ray player with Digital bridge.

Note: No HDMI 1.4 can support the above frame rates (90Hz and 120Hz). There are two factors in HDMI 2.0 that we need to consider for a custom HDMI port, Frame rate which we know can be supported and in each frame resolution and higher number of bits per pixel which needs a faster clock and resulting bandwidth. HDCP is also part of HDMI 1.4 but new recommendations for HDMI 2 want the HDCP encryption to take place in the same TEE with the video processing, for the PS4 that's Southbridge.

 

[thelastword]

Interesting tidbit and find Jeff, hope 4k support lands soon.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Interesting tidbit and find Jeff, hope 4k support lands soon.

We've known since I think March that the PS4 would support 120Hz for VR...I just didn't think of it for an argument supporting HDMI 2 since the first UHD will be 60Hz and HDMI 1.4 can support 60Hz 1080P.

I think HEVC and UHD IPTV (Netflix/Amazon) may be coming soon depending on Playready DRM. If you look at the HTML5test.com score it's increasing but still no HTML5 <video> and MSE. Those should be via APIs from Southbridge and Japan code only. ooVoo should come at the same time. Over the last 4 months with some firmware update the Browser scrolling has gotten much smoother and I think faster.

UHD Blu-ray and maybe Vidipath will likely be delayed till early 2016 as pointed out by Adam Tyner.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Yes the PS4 will be a UHD Blu-ray player with Digital bridge.

Masayasu Ito (executive vice president of Sony Computer Entertainment) responded about Ultra HD Blu-ray support for the PS4. The translation is a little difficult, but it looks like they're saying it's not possible with the current console but could come with a later revision (they've even worked out which chips they'd use in an updated model). It's a very technical conversation, so I assume he knows what he's talking about.

I realize that you believe that existing PS4s will be able to play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs, but please stop passing your speculation off as absolute fact.

 

[Alebrije]

Will wait for PS5 , surely it will be designed for 4kas base.k

 

[jeff_rigby]

Masayasu Ito (executive vice president of Sony Computer Entertainment) responded about Ultra HD Blu-ray support for the PS4. The translation is a little difficult, but it looks like they're saying it's not possible with the current console but could come with a later revision (different chips and such). It's a very technical conversation, so I assume he knows what he's talking about.

I realize that you believe that existing PS4s will be able to play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs, but please stop passing your speculation off as absolute fact.

What the article says to me is that Sony stated that the PS4 will not support BDXL recordable disks ("It can not be read three-layer media that has been normalized by the -ray"). just as the PS3 does not support recordable disks. The author then speculates that the PS4 should support UHD blu-ray because it requires 3 layers and that is part of the 2010 BDXL recordable whitepaper. Since sometime after 2010 all blu-ray players complying with the 2010 whitepaper can read 4 or more layers. With the release of the UHD disk for the first time we will have commercial 3 layer NOT recordable.

physical specifications for the Ultra HD Blu-ray media is a media & drive standard has been Blu-ray recorder for the announcement in 2010 "BDXL"

"BDXL" It has become a thing to inherit. In the BDXL standard, in addition to the conventional type of capacity is about 25GB per layer, it media of about 33GB has been standardized but, Ultra HD in Blu-ray In addition, the media of the two-layer about 67GB, 3-layer about 100GB is standard ized. Therefore, only it can not be read media of one layer about 25GB, 2-layer about 50GB, current PS4 that says Ito said the "Blu-ray Disc players only", is becoming to the fact that Ultra HD Blu-ray non-compliant. &#12288;If the drive conforming to the BDXL standard, Ultra HD Blu-ray it is seen that it can support, but as a PlayStation platform wonder such that this drive is not supported.

If the drive is a modern standard blu-ray drive then it should support UHD blu-ray so we wonder why this drive is not supported. For it not to support UHD Sony would have to change the firmware to keep it from working.

This is exactly the logic I pointed out and went on to show the HDMI 2 port and low power HEVC support are also there.

 

[Adam Tyner]

I guess Sony's technical leadership has no idea what they're talking about (since Ito also believes a dedicated H.265 decoder is necessary). Maybe you could fly to Japan and tell them all how misguided they are.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I guess Sony's technical leadership has no idea what they're talking about (since Ito also believes a dedicated H.265 decoder is necessary). Maybe you could fly to Japan and tell them all how misguided they are.

Adam, the XB1, PS4, AMD APUs and modern dGPUs have Xtensa accelerators with DSP blocks. These Xtensa STREAM processors support HEVC, h.264, True Audio, encrypting and decrypting streams and more.

It's been confirmed that the PS4 has true Audio using a Xtensa processor with DSP block. The XB1 has a more extensive Xtensa block with two controller processors so that it can decode and encode HEVC. We don't know the power of the PS4 Xtensa processor or how many there are. Sony said it is powerful enough to decode 200 MP3 streams which is overkill for just HEVC.

Windows 10 uses the ARM block in AMD APUs and dGPUs as TEE environments and all video processing from DRM decryption to HDCP 1.4 or 2.2 encryption for output takes place in that TEE and that includes the XB1 APU. The PS4 is different in that the ARM block was moved out of the APU so it could use GDDR5. Southbridge is that TEE and ARM SoC with 256 MB of memory. All the ARM blocks in the above run their own ARM OS...there are two OS in the PS4 one in Southbridge and one for the APU.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Note: No HDMI 1.4 can support the above frame rates (90Hz and 120Hz).

That's not correct, I use 120hz from my PC over HDMI 1.4 just fine at 1080p, which is the same resolution as PlaystationVR's single screen.

 

[jett]

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1128620

On 4K Blu-ray/Ultra HD Blu-ray:
-"Current PS4 doesn't support Ultra HD Blu-ray."
-"Support is still under consideration."

I doubt PS4 will ever suport UHD BD.

 

[Aces&Eights]

I know that 4k BluRay is a thing for people who really pay attention to every last ounce of picture quality but I just can't see how its going to be anything other than an unnecessary flop.

the general public don't watch movies this way anymore. Netflix and other streaming services have, for better or worse, taken over.

Well, one thing is data caps. Streaming 4k sucks up data and for those with caps, watching a 4K movie on disc might be a better solution.

 

[jeff_rigby]

That's not correct, I use 120hz from my PC over HDMI 1.4 just fine at 1080p, which is the same resolution as PlaystationVR's single screen.

What GPU are you using as some Nvidia and AMD dGPUs have planned support for UHD and don't really have a HDMI 1.4 port, it's just running in HDMI 1.4 mode. All HDCP takes place in the GPU it'self.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Adam, the XB1, PS4, AMD APUs and modern dGPUs have Xtensa accelerators with DSP blocks. These Xtensa STREAM processors support HEVC, h.264, True Audio, encrypting and decrypting streams and more.

It's been confirmed that the PS4 has true Audio using a Xtensa processor with DSP block. The XB1 has a more extensive Xtensa block with two controller processors so that it can decode and encode HEVC. We don't know the power of the PS4 Xtensa processor or how many there are.

Windows 10 uses the ARM block in AMD APUs and dGPUs as TEE environments and all video processing from DRM decryption to HDCP 1.4 or 2.2 encryption for output takes place in that TEE and that includes the XB1 APU. The PS4 is different in that the ARM block was moved out of the APU so it could use GDDR5. Southbridge is that TEE and ARM SoC with 256 MB of memory. All the ARM blocks in the above run their own ARM OS...there are two OS in the PS4 one in Southbridge and one for the APU.

I'm not the person you should be telling this to. The technical leadership of Sony clearly fundamentally does not understand the capabilities of their own hardware, and they seem to be clueless about Ultra HD Blu-Ray in general. I'm not sure the best way for you to notify them that the console is more than capable as-is in playing these discs, but hopefully you'll be able to show them the light.

Regardless of whether or not the console is technically capable of playing these discs, extremely well-informed higher-ups at Sony insist that it is not, surely disproving your assertion that Ultra HD Blu-Ray support would be in place as early as this month. I'm in no position to confirm or disprove what you're saying (and apparently a tech-savvy EVP at Sony isn't a reliable resource either), but it does show how misleading and how irresponsible it is to pass off your speculation as fact.

 

[Chase5]

Thanks...

I'm not trying to be dogmatic but in this case I am 100% sure. People who follow my posts will notice that I preface with guess, likely or speculation unless I am absolutely sure.

Guess I won't be buying you that beer or chocolate milk. As I was pointing out it has to support the entire Ultra HD Blu-Ray specification. You can't have partial support and expect to play the disks. Ultra HD Blu-Ray is far more about pixel quality than just a simple bump in resolution. This what I feel gets lost with a lot of people and I had tried to explain before. Buyers need to be informed that it's kind of pointless to buy a 4k tv if it doesn't support all the features of Ultra HD Blu-Ray, such as HDR support, 10-bit color, Rec. 2020, higher frame rate, and 4:4:4 chroma subsampling. They could be missing out greatly with what this format has to offer. The difference is staggering. It's also misleading to inform buyers to purchase a current model PS4 and promising them a firmware update will allow them to play the new format. It's better to protect the consumer by stating it's all just speculation and to wait for a definitive answer.

 

[8byte]

This thread is going to get considerably more interesting now that Sony officially said it isn't happening on current model PS4s.

Can't wait for the madness.

 

[jeff_rigby]

This thread is going to get considerably more interesting now that Sony officially said it isn't happening on current model PS4s.

Can't wait for the madness.

It is going to get interesting:

On 6 June, 2015, Microsoft updated the Xbox One to support 10-bit HEVC decoding.[112]

Microsoft released and update to the Xbox One&#8217;s system software, which fixes several issues and adds support for a new video codec.

10-bit HD High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC) platform support added

10-bit HD HEVC enables video streaming apps, like NetFlix, to use lower bandwidth to deliver HD quality video streams. 10-bit Ultra color increases the video color precision from 8-bits to 10-bits &#8211; with 8-bits you only get 16 million colors, but with 10-bit Ultra color precision you get 1 billion life-like colors that makes your video more vibrant.

Edit: 8 bit HEVC can stream 1080P @ 24 Hz with a lower bandwidth, 10 bit is needed for UHD streaming, since it streams 10 bit HEVC and Netflix is used as an example then UHD IPTV is a target and that needs HDCP2.2. UHD IPTV can be 24-30Hz to also reduce bandwidth. Blu-ray UHD would require 10 bit HEVC @ 60 Hz. Combining this with the 2013 cite that the XB1 would support UHD Blu-ray confirms UHD Blu-ray.

This confirms the XB1 will be a UHD blu-ray player with digital bridge (Playready ND whitepaper). In 2013 a Microsoft employee stated the XB1 would support UHD Blu-ray and a Sony employee stated the PS4 will support 4K personal pictures and movies with commercial media sometime in the future. It also makes the Ito comments about the PS4 not supporting HEVC and the drive not supporting 3 layers suspect or Sony is stupid. Both have custom Xtensa DPUs and I can't see Sony not wanting to support 4K Blu-ray on their PS4.

What's going to happen when Microsoft announces the XB1 supports UHD Blu-ray and the PS4 according to Ito can't? What's going to Happen when Netflix announces UHD streaming on the XB1 and Sony's PS4 can't because it has no HEVC decoder according to Ito.

1) Modern standard blu-ray drives can read three layers
2) HEVC 10 bit (UHD Blu-ray) can be supported by Xtensa DPUs (Confirmed with XB1, Carrizo)
3) The PS4 and XB1 do HDCP 2.2 in the ARM SoC TEE as required by the Movie industry and the HDMI interface is designed to support both VR and HFR with up to 120 Hz frame rates. (Confirmed with XB1 & PS4)

Adam Tyner is correct in that UHD Blu-ray and Vidipath (confirmed) are going to be delayed till 2016.

 

[jeff_rigby]

In this post he says that PS4 owners have tried BDXL disks and the third layer can be read.

Can anyone confirm? The following were from 2013.

The physical format is probably the same as already defined for BD-XL, which has been in place for a couple of years now for data discs. Most of the modern BD burners and BD Rom drives for PCs, including those from LG, already can support the BD-XL structure with 33 GB per layer and up to 4 layers.

AVS forum member Kraine was reporting last week from IFA in Berlin. I requested that he question Sony about the HDMI on the PS4 and he reported they said it was using HDMI 2.0. His post is HERE.

Note that for protection reasons, the VPL-VW500ES has only two HDMI 2.0 inputs jacks. (The VPL-HW500ES will be provided upon its release, the VPL-VW1000ES should be updated for a fee and the new PS4 released in November of the same year will also be equipped with HDMI 2.0 jacks).

 

[Prat]

Maybe the BD doesnt support 3 layer discs, but what about streaming through an external hard drive or DLNA? In that case we would only need output at 4k/30fps, is the hdmi port on the PS4 able to do that?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Maybe the BD doesnt support 3 layer discs, but what about streaming through an external hard drive or DLNA? In that case we would only need output at 4k/30fps, is the hdmi port on the PS4 able to do that?

The Custom Panasonic HDMI chip in the PS4 supports 60/90/120Hz frame rates for Virtual Reality and HDCP is in the PS4 southbridge. The HDMI chip just passes HDCP negotiation through to Southbridge and only needs to have programmable dividers to support multiple modes including that required by UHD Blu-ray or IPTV.

The current DLNA player is temporary and will be replaced with one that runs 100% in Southbridge @ Full Screen. The only unconfirmed issue is HEVC support but Sony wouldn't have included HDMI 2.0 without HEVC as HDMI 2.0 (HDCP 2.2 part) is only needed for 4K UHD Blu-ray or IPTV.

Will Sony provide UHD IPTV playback at 30 FPS on the PS3? It doesn't have the HDMI 2's HDCP 2.2 so Playready might not allow it. Sony could add watermarking to the PS3 HDMI output and upgrade the security level of the HDMI port slightly. In any case the PS3 in Jan 2016 is probably going to get a major firmware update to allow it to be a Vidipath WMDRM10 and Playready ND 1080P client for the PS4's Digital bridge. The leaked Survey was to get us thinking about 4.0.

PS4 Firmware update 4.0 to support 4K media in 2016 by March.

 

[Raistlin]

The lack of HDMI 2.0a discussion in the OP is potentially a problem, though hopefully not.

We do know the PS4 HDMI is programmable, but it is dependent the design whether it can be upgraded to 2.0a or not. I suspect it is, but do we really know that for a fact?


http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/hdmi_2_0a_faq.aspx#151

 

[SigSig]

PS4 Firmware update 4.0 to support 4K media in 2016 by March.

Nah, but HL4 confirmed.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The lack of HDMI 2.0a discussion in the OP is potentially a problem, though hopefully not.

We do know the PS4 HDMI is programmable, but it is dependent the design whether it can be upgraded to 2.0a or not. I suspect it is, but do we really know that for a fact?


http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/hdmi_2_0a_faq.aspx#151

Baby steps...first we need to get everyone on the same page RE: HDMI 2.0, Drive and HEVC support. Yes I think the port can support HDMI 2.0a (HDR) and in a year or so HFR. Can the Southbridge fully support the Digital bridge requirements in the Panasonic PDF in converting UHD to HD and HDR back to 8 bit for 1080P TVs as well as DASH streaming UHD and HD?

We could fork this discussion on why Ito felt he needed to Lie about the PS4 UHD abilities. I suspect NDA reasons. Notice no leaks from Sony after 2013. No mention of Media features with the PS4 4.0 Firmware survey but a couple of the mentioned features require Southbridge routines which is where HTML5 <video> MSE EME and DLNA are supported.

 

[Raistlin]

Baby steps...first we need to get everyone on the same page RE: HDMI 2.0, Drive and HEVC support. Yes I think the port can support HDMI 2.0a (HDR) and in a year or so HFR.

While I understand the point of using baby steps in order to explain how this may all be viable, I think we need to make sure we see the forest for the trees. The end game of UHD is increased image quality from the user's perspective, so with that we need to explain what is actually the most important aspect of image quality as it pertains to the new format ... and it isn't resolution. So really part of these baby steps must include HDR, and whether or not PS4 can do it ultimately determines the worth of its support for the new format.




As far as HFR, it's up in the air whether that will ultimately matter. At least at this time there is no great push from content creators. That could change, but right now there's only a handful of major movies being shot that utilize it. For HDR though, that's not the case ... we are seeing a push for it. More importantly though, while current content may not push HDR to the bounds we want to see, it already uses higher color (P3) and a wider dynamic range than what the current Rec 709 offers. So while not fully saturated, there is tons of legacy content that can already show viewable improvements in image quality over current encodes.

 

[jeff_rigby]

While I understand the point of using baby steps in order to explain how this may all be viable, I think we need to make sure we see the forest for the trees. The end game of UHD is increased image quality from the user's perspective, so with that we need to explain what is actually the most important aspect of image quality as it pertains to the new format ... and it isn't resolution. So really part of these baby steps must include HDR, and whether or not PS4 can do it ultimately determines the worth of its support for the new format.


As far as HFR, it's up in the air whether that will ultimately matter. At least at this time there is no great push from content creators. That could change, but right now there's only a handful of major movies being shot that utilize it. For HDR though, that's not the case ... we are seeing a push for it. More importantly though, while current content may not push HDR to the bounds we want to see, it already uses higher color (P3) and a wider dynamic range than what the current Rec 709 offers. So while not fully saturated, there is tons of legacy content that can already show viewable improvements in image quality over current encodes.

Agree on the first part although for the 1080P TV owners the digital bridge may be the attractive feature. As to the second part with HFR (High Frame Rate) we will be seeing that used with VR glasses and VR Multi-view @ resolutions like @ 1080P but three or more views @ 90 to 120 HZ. Not true UHD but using the features needed for UHD.

 

[Maxrunner]

How about they support CD áudio first?

 

[jeff_rigby]

How about they support CD áudio first?

It might be coming. Windows 10 rips CD disks to LOSSLESS FLAC and likely MP3....the XB1 should also. If the XB1 does then the PS4 probably will too.

Sony and Microsoft want the PS4 and XB1 to be Media Hubs and Music is part of that media. I'd guess the primary feature of the "Media Hub" is to consolidate media, index and provide Metadata for searching and playlists. This includes Blu-ray disks and Music CDs as well as sideloaded (from Microsoft and Sony Stores) and DVR from Cable, Antenna TV and new services like Playstation Vue. Sony and Microsoft will charge a yearly or monthly fee for these services. A Electronic Program guide is needed with DVRs, Meta data for Music CDs is needed, Metadata and search databases are needed for movies and Music. Those are tied to the Store which can sell you the media you want or tell you when it would be airing on TV.

All media should be available from a Hard Disk for streaming in the home. Music CDs have to be supported to Rip them but all the other advanced services probably require they be on the local Hard Disk.

This is the same company that kept conflating the PS4 can't read CDs with the PS4 doesn't read CDs. If you check the paper manual that comes with the PS4, CD reading capability is mentioned, it's just not on any of the online spec sheets. And DVD drives can generally read pressed CDs even without a specific CD laser, frequency isn't too important there as long as it's lower than the requirement and there's enough focal range to focus on the disc (which DVD drives usually do thanks to the need to read dual layer discs). CD lasers are needed for recordable CD, since they use a specific frequency color dye.

There's a lot of weird internal business politics about what the PS4's drive can and can't do thanks to the whole synergy thing. Sony electronics might want to sell price-inflated 4K blu-ray players for a while before the PS4 eats their lunch.

 

[endlessflood]

We could fork this discussion on why Ito felt he needed to Lie about the PS4 UHD abilities. I suspect NDA reasons.

I heard it was the aliens...

Somebody's clearly lying about the PS4 UHD abilities here, and I don't think it's Ito

 

[AmyS]

How about they support CD áudio first?

Ha!

 

[baudelinog]

How about they support CD áudio first?

Yes pleaseeeee!!!!!

 

[televator]

How about they support CD áudio first?

Count me in on team CD > 4K

 

[kvn]

...

PS4 Firmware update 4.0 to support 4K media in 2016 by March.

When will you stop this shit?

 

[jeff_rigby]

I heard it was the aliens...

Somebody's clearly lying about the PS4 UHD abilities here, and I don't think it's Ito

This seems awfully familiar....months of saying HTML5 browser is coming to the PS3 and the PS3 and PS4 would have APP side OSs based on the browser with Gnome Mobile Initiative APIs. In 2012 the PS3 got a HTML5 browser and the Sony APPs are based on WebMAF. When the PS4 is released it has a browser desktop and WebMAF apps.

Both are waiting on HTML5 <video> MSE EME to be added to the browser and used with WebMAF so that Trilithium can be retired and all apps can use embedded Playready. When that happens ooVoo may make it into the PS3 too.

Finally PS4 games can stream to the PS3 like they now can with TVs and Phones. Why hasn't Sony implemented this feature as it's obviously a must have? A major firmware update is coming that is going to drastically change the PS3 OS and any work on the current PS3 APP side OS would be wasted. The PS3 is using Trilithium which I think is a Flash server 3.5 player format for media since Firmware 3.5 (Similar to Adobe Air 3.5 for embedded) and will change to HTML5 <video> with embedded playready.

All this is obvious now but was wild speculation in 2011.

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

Read the title and thought it was an official announcement.

Saw that the op is jeff_rigby.

yep ok sure

 

[EdReedFan20]

Relevant? https://www.yahoo.com/movies/s/sony-pictures-becomes-second-studio-announce-ultra-hd-185703890.html

 

[jeff_rigby]

Relevant? https://www.yahoo.com/movies/s/sony-pictures-becomes-second-studio-announce-ultra-hd-185703890.html

Yup especially:

Sony has an extensive library of Ultra HD, or 4K, content

&#8220;By some estimates, consumers will own over 100 million Ultra HD television sets by 2019,&#8221; said SPHE president Man Jit Singh. &#8220;Sony Pictures&#8217; 4K Ultra HD Discs will deliver consumers the ultimate home theater experience, with stunning picture and sound quality.&#8221;

The rapid advance of Ultra HD, some observer say, is expected to lead to an eventual upswing in sales of Blu-ray Disc, which they say remains the optimal way to view the new sharper, clearer format.

&#8220;Networks struggle to provide the real deal, whereas the disc has the capacity to do it. So I expect people upgrading to 4K will be looking to Blu-ray as a way to get more content.&#8221;

 

[jeff_rigby]

ATSC 3.0 UHD TV is also going to support HDR (High Dynamic Range) and by accounts can support everything coming for UHD Blu-ray and vice versa. UHD Blu-ray is not just for movies.....3D and Multi-view for Augmented Reality tours of Museums which require 120 Hz and S3D etc. and Multi-view with HFR (High Frame Rate) for Live sporting events via UHD TV is coming. Including the audio (true audio in the PS4 and XB1 support this and game middle ware has to downscale to 7.1 audio) there are 140 planned features for UHD TV. The PS4 custom HDMI chip supports 120Hz frame rates. http://www.audioholics.com/hdtv-formats/atsc-3.0

This is why Virtual Reality is coming in 2016, because UHD Blu-ray is coming in 2016 and it supports the same features needed by VR. UHD TV will use the same features UHD Blu-ray uses and only the Tuner and Transport layers need to be added to a STB that supports UHD TV or Blu-ray to receive ATSC 3.0. Tuner and Transport (QFDM) layer for ATSC 3.0 are essentially the same as in Cell Phones. In other words there is a synergy in everything coming that is UHD. It explains why Facebook would buy Oculus Rift as it can be supported for media not games on every connected to the internet with browser UHD STB for blu-ray or TV not just PCs.

The problem is chicken and egg....getting people to buy the Vidipath STBs be they on Cable or Antenna TV so that the majority of the cost to move to ATSC 3.0 features is pain free. Most of the UHD Blu-ray players will be connected to the home network and will have a HTML5 browser. If they support the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge they will likely support Playready and are de facto Vidipath servers and Client. All they need is a Network tuner to support TV. This, I understand, is the plan for the PS4 and XB1.

&#8226; A solution for streaming 4K/Ultra-HD TV profiles will be included in the DLNA guidelines by Q3 2015,

Blu-ray 1080P (2006) was supposed to be a few years in advance of ATSC 2.0 which uses the same codec to support 1080P, S3D NRT and XTV (Java and Javascript). The PS3 was designed to support (except for USB or Network tuner) ATSC 2.0. The PS4's UHD blu-ray is supposed to be a few years in advance of ATSC 3.0 which will use the same HEVC codec and for XTV the same javascript and Java. It just requires a USB or Network tuner.

ATSC 2.0 has been delayed and it looks like ATSC 3.0 will be released early. Korea wants to broadcast the 2018 Winter Olympics Feb 2018 in UHD using ATSC 3.0. There are several additional factors that might make ATSC 3.0 come early.

1) Phone TV tuners. Phones use the same modulation scheme that ATSC 3.0 will use and the same UHF frequencies TVs used to use. With minor changes and firmware updates a Phone could support ATSC 3.0 mobile with very little additional cost. The FCC may require phones support ATSC 3.0 Mobile TV for emergency alerts. TVs will be required to be AOAC and turn on with an emergency alert (both the PS4 and XB1 support this AOAC network standby).

2) The FCC wants to auction off additional TV spectrum. In some markets this means not enough channels are available. ATSC 2.0 and 3.0 use h.264 and h.265 (HEVC) respectively which allow 2 to 4 times as many channels with the same bandwidth.

3) Requiring the consumer to buy a ATSC 2.0 STB and then two to three years later a ATSC 3.0 STB and possibly a new antenna does not make sense. Most of the Vidipath STBs being released in 2016 will support HEVC so with a network or USB tuner they can support both ATSC 2.0 and 3.0.

4) ATSC 3.0's primary short term use will be to support Mobile TV and 1080P channels. I suspect that sometime in 2016 DLNA network tuners will be on sale that support both ATSC 1/2 and 3.0. The current UHD TVs will require the same Network tuner and 1080P Smart TVs will require a DLNA server that transcodes to 1080P. All dumb 1080P TVs will require in addition a Vidipath STB with HEVC support.

The PS4 and XB1 have multi-stream codecs and are designed to be the HD and UHD DVR/DLNA server and transcode from HEVC to 1080P (Media Hub) as well as Vidipath client for 1080P and UHD TVs. All they need is a USB or Network tuner.

W3C extensions to HTML5 include USB and Network tuner control based on Hauppage USB and Silicon dust HD Homerun. HD Homerun prime is a DLNA tuner which serves a RUI for a Vidipath STB. No tuners currently support ATSC 3.0.

ATSC 1.0 supporting 480i to 1080i
HD Blu-ray was released in 2006 supporting 1080P
IPTV streaming in about 2010 along with Blu-ray S3D
ATSC 2.0 was supposed to release 2013-2014-2015-2016 supporting 1080P, S3D (using blu-ray codec), Non Real-time Transmission, S3D and XTV
UHD streaming about 2015
UHD Blu-ray 2016

2013 (PS4 and XB1) to 2015 for other Vidipath and HEVC capable STBs enter the market but no firmware support.
2016 the FCC no longer requires a Cable Card for Cable TV and DSS (Downloadable Security Scheme) starts. This allows Network tuners connected to PCs, XB1 or PS4 to support their being DVRs and servers to other platforms in the home.
2016 Vidipath STBs with HEVC codec and Firmware updates
2016 the PS4 and XB1 get firmware updates to support UHD blu-ray

UHD (ATSC 3.0) TV 2017 and Broadcast early 2018 in time for the Feb winter olympics in Korea. Supporting NRT, 1080P, S3D, UHD (using Blu-ray's HEVC), XTV and 140 planned protocols/features and is extensible

 

[jeff_rigby]

If the PS4 is going to support UHD blu-ray then the following quote supports the next Playstation 6 month major firmware update period March 2016. This was one of the options in the PS4 Survey for Firmware update 4.0, the 4K Media update (my guess). 4K titles ship to retailers days before they go on sale. There is still no news on when UHD blu-ray players will ship; since they are backwardly compatible with HD blu-ray they could sell earlier and be enabled with a firmware update. This makes sense as I understand titles need to be unlocked with an internet connection.

Finally today, many of you have been asking us recently when we can expect to see the very first 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray titles to be released in stores. Out best and latest intel from studio and retail sources suggests that you&#8217;ll likely see them really start to arrive in late February &#8211; either on 2/22 or 2/29. There could be the odd indie studio title that sneaks out sooner just for &#8220;first dibs&#8221; cred, but multiple industry sources are telling us that late February is the timeframe that the major studios are currently targeting for their first release waves on the format. So adjust your plans accordingly. Obviously, we&#8217;ll post updates as we have them.

Speaking of 4K, DirecTV has also just announced that they&#8217;re going to start live 4K broadcasting sometime in early 2016. You can read more here via Engadget. They already offer limited 4K content to some of their consumers, but only with restrictions (you must have a Samsung 4K-ready TV, for example).

IPTV 4K streaming may come first, Microsoft still hasn't released a firmware update to allow Windows 10 to support UHD blu-ray but they have announced it will be coming during Playready porting kit 3 and Playready ND meetings.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Released Oct 2015 is: Mt. Fuji Commands for Multimedia Devices Version 9

Page 83 lists the BD capacities. There is no separate UHD drive, a BD-ROM version 2 drive can read TL disks which have 100 GB capacity. A BD-ROM drive is a read only drive and can read but can not write 3 layer or 4 layer XL/TL disks. ROM disks are commercial read only and are easier to read than recordable. The released 10/2015 paper has all multi-media drives listed as of that date and UHD blu-ray if it requires a different drive should be listed.

This confirms that Modern blu-ray drives can support UHD 100GB disks.

I've been informed that PC's will not require new Blu-ray drives to playback 4k media/bluray. PC's will only need software that supports 4K (PowerDVD 14 already does this). So we have it then....

Modern Blu-ray drives can support 4K blu-ray There is a 2010 patent from Sony which confirms modern blu-ray drives can support 4k blu-ray. The patent discusses a modification to either the coming 4 layer BDXL in the 2010 blu-ray whitepaper or 3 layer 4K blu-ray disks to make them unreadable on older blu-ray drives by inverting the track information. A software change to later higher spec standard blu-ray drives makes them able to read this inverted track information.

For example, if a new version of the Blu-ray Disc that incorporates a multi-layer structure of at least three layers (hereinafter called the Ver. 2.0 disc) becomes commercially available in the future, it could happen that a user would load a Ver. 2.0 disc into a Ver. 1.0 drive.

Basically, because the Blu-ray Disc format is the same, recording and playing back a Ver. 2.0 disc on a Ver. 1.0 drive would not be absolutely impossible. However, if the Ver. 2.0 disc is achieved by using higher density and more layers, it can be assumed that the various types of specifications with which the Ver. 1.0 drive is provided would not the adequate.

Therefore, in a case where recording and playback of a Ver. 2.0 disc are done on a Ver. 1.0 drive, there is concern that recording errors and playback errors would occur with greater frequency.

So a change to the specs of a blu-ray drive would make it usable for 4K. That's what the 2010 blu-ray BD-R whitepaper was all about. They had from 2010 to do this. Sometime after 2010 modern drives could read 4 layer BDXL which means they could easily read 3 Layer commercial disks.

1) A UHD disk is three layers and higher density and BD-ROM Version 2 drives can read this. We have known that BDXL drives can read 4 layer recordable disks. This paper confirms that BD-ROM can read 4 layers much less three
2) There is no UHD drive!!!!!
3) The BD Version 2 drive was envisioned in 2010 (Patent) and incorporates the 2010 BD-R whitepaper.
4) The Panasonic-Sony firmware tweak to the drive to read the increase in the density of the disk media is from 2010 and is mentioned in the 2010 Version 2 patent.
5) A BD version 2 drive is a modern blu-ray drive and sometime after 2010 all BD drives are version 2 drives and can read version 1 and 2 Disks.
6) There is no UHD drive mentioned!!!!!

There is no UHD drive mentioned!!!!. The PS3 BD-ROM 2X speed version 1 drive can not read a BD-ROM version 2 disk whether it has HD or UHD media, two layers or three layers.... A PS4 modern blu-ray 6X speed version 2 drive can read a Version 1 HD media disk and a Version 2 HD or UHD media disk.

The HD or UHD media on the disk does not make the disk format HD or UHD, it's always a Blu-ray disk that is read by a blu-ray drive, only the media and required read rate changes; 1080P HD requires a 1X drive and UHD requires a 4X drive. A 2 layer 50GB version 2 disk can support HD or UHD and some UHD movies to reduce costs will come on what amounts to version 1 disks with inverted track information.

On January 1, 2010, Sony, in association with Panasonic, announced plans to increase the storage capacity on their Blu-ray Discs from 25 GB to 33.4 GB via a technology called i-MLSE (Maximum likelihood Sequence Estimation). The higher-capacity discs, according to Sony, will be readable on current Blu-ray Disc players with a firmware upgrade. No date has been set to include the increased space, although in 2010 Blu-ray.com reported that "it will likely happen sometime later this year."[78]

The usable data rate of a Blu-ray Disc drive can be limited by the capacity of the drive's data interface. With a USB 2.0 interface, the maximum exploitable drive speed is 288 Mbit/s or 36 MB/s (also called 8× speed)

What Ito would have us believe is that Sony used 2003 spec drives in a late 2013 PS4 when in 2010 Sony introduced the version 2 BD drive specs. Further Sony would need to have the drives special made to not support UHD while Microsoft used cheaper off the shelf drives and can support UHD Blu-ray with version 2 drives. You see how stupid and insulting this is to anyone who did the research or Knows what modern BD drives can support. When you add that Sony is counting on UHD to turn around their business including Blu-ray disk sales it's doubly insulting.