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Opinion: The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
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anothertech
Member
Dam Jeff. Read the title and thought this was an announcement.
You realize this thread reads like a Mrxmedia page?
You realize this thread reads like a Mrxmedia page?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Barring an announcement, you do research to determine what is required to support UHD Blu-ray and then look to see if the hardware can support it. That is what I have done and the research results overwhelmingly support both the XB1, PS4 and Modern PCs with Windows 10 will be UHD blu-ray players. The same hardware can support UHD IPTV, ATSC 3.0 and Vidipath.
It looks like Sony will be advertising the PS4 as a DLNA 4 Vidipath platform which is a super set of all the DLNA versions before it including DLNA 3 which supports UHD IPTV from the cloud and DLNA 4 supports in addition, 1080P Vidipath and IPV6.
Edit: With DLNA 3 supporting UHD IPTV you need 10 bit HEVC plus Playready 3 and for DLNA 4 to support 1080P Vidipath you need Playready ND. So DLNA 4 supports the Vidipath streaming needed by the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge.
There is a good thread on NeoGAF about IPV6: "IPv6, PSN and You: Clearing up the Confusion." that cites a Playstation blog. The benefits of IPV6 are:
1) Lower latency (good for games)
2) Simpler setup eliminating the need for port forwarding
3) Multiple Playstation consoles can be behind a router and support multi-player playing of the same game.
4) Easier multi-cast which can be used by Playstation Vue or serving Events to multiple people.
with ces around the corner you guys think sony might drop news on this ?
edit never mind lol
http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2015/10/24/sony-talks-enhanced-ps4-blu-ray/
edit never mind lol
http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2015/10/24/sony-talks-enhanced-ps4-blu-ray/
jeff_rigby
Banned
Ito's comments don't make sense unless they are an effort to comply with a NDA. If that is the case then Sony and likely Microsoft have agreed to not mention UHD blu-ray and game consoles till some agreed upon date. There have been no comments on this from either since 2013.
There are various profiles for the HEVC codec. I suspect that the same 10 bit HEVC codec to be used for UHD blu-ray will be used by Netflix to stream UHD IPTV and to save bandwidth with HD IPTV. The same codec because it will be a standard for Ultraviolet and UHD blu-ray and every movie will need to be pre-encoded because it's very difficult to encode HEVC real time. Microsoft has already announced the XB1 supports 10 bit HEVC and can be used by Netflix. So logically the XB1 already has hinted the XB1 will support UHD blu-ray.
So we still don't know when. I suspect it will be 1st quarter 2016. The leaked Sony survey asked when the consumer thought Firmware 4.0 might be released by Sony. Just asking this in a survey is not typical Sony. Are they trying to get us talking about Firmware 4.0? Two of the features mentioned in the survey require Southbridge internal code so Firmware 4.0 is likely (my guess) all about Media.
jeff_rigby
Banned
As compared to;
1) The first version of the PS4 and XB1 won't support UHD in any form (from New 4K-Capable PS4 And Xbox One Consoles Coming This Year, Predicts Netflix)
2) Neither version of the PS4 will support UHD Blu-ray but SCE Executive Vice President: says an Enhanced version might. But Sony has never broken the console model and likely won't this time. This should have made article #1 suspect. AND there can't be a significant difference in performance without going to 14nm and HBM2 (heat and power for a living room console) and if you are going to do that then you might as well go all the way to a PS5 on 14nm with 8 ZEN cpus, Arctic Island (Cool ) GPU and HBM 2.
3) The PS4 and XB1 can't support UHD Blu-ray from multiple articles:
4K support on PS4 and Xbox One
Xbox One and PS4: Analyzing their support for 4K video and gaming
News Want 4K content? Don't bother looking to the PlayStation 4 or Xbox One
So when I state that the PS4 and XB1 will support UHD blu-ray, is it in any way worse than the multiple articles that say it can't and don't back up their articles with research as I have? This is why I put this paragraph in the beginning of the OP: "There is so much miss-information and it's not self correcting...no one is using Google Search and doing the necessary research. <sigh>. This negatively reflects on NeoGAF but more so on Articles by professionals."
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
PS4k
Make the "k" like an exponent and boom! Also this would bump the price up a nice size I would think, maybe 499 w/a few free movies.
Maybe pack in a copy of The Force Awakens 4K.
Make the "k" like an exponent and boom! Also this would bump the price up a nice size I would think, maybe 499 w/a few free movies.
Maybe pack in a copy of The Force Awakens 4K.
Raven Prime
Member
Probably more compared to "Reasons why the PS4 should be able to support 4k Blu-ray", you could still argue the exact same things, without making a definitive claim that isn't supported by Sony's official statements.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Got excited for a moment but nothing official given Sony don't have their 4K players out yet
jeff_rigby
Banned
In 2013, prior to release, a hardware reviewer asked a Sony representative if the PS4 had a HDMI 2 port and the answer was yes.
A HDMI 2 port implies at least IPTV 4k was to be supported and the only thing left to support UHD Blu-ray is the drive which we now know is a modern standard 4X blu-ray drive and the PS4 has a 8X drive. So in a round about way it has been confirmed by Sony that the PS4 will be a UHD blu-ray player.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I guess I need to spell it out:
It looks like Sony will be advertising the PS4 as a DLNA 4 Vidipath platform which is a super set of all the DLNA versions before it including DLNA 3 which supports UHD IPTV from the cloud and DLNA 4 supports in addition, 1080P Vidipath and IPV6.
With DLNA 3 supporting UHD IPTV you need 10 bit HEVC plus Playready 3 and for DLNA 4 to support 1080P Vidipath you need Playready ND. So DLNA 4 supports the Vidipath streaming needed by the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge. Note: Vidipath was DLNA 2 using WMDRM10 for streaming 480i through 1080i. To stream 1080P and greater (4k) the content owners want a better DRM protection which looks like it will be Playready ND. OTT (Cloud) streaming of UHD content requires Playready porting kit 3 but DLNA 3 would still use WMDRM10 for DTCP-IP streaming between platforms in the home. DLNA 4 adds Playready ND to Playready 3...Playready ND requires a Playready 3 porting kit in any case.
For Vidipath backward compatibility the Playready ND papers mention WMDRM10 and Playready ND co-existing at the same time in Vidipath platforms with conversion from WMDRM10 to Playready ND and back as well as changing the resolution to match the licence requirements if needed. The latter can be done with Xtensa DPUs stream processors which also handle codecs. The UHD Blu-ray digital bridge requires the platform to comply with Playready ND and convert from 4K to 1080P and handle frame rate HDR and color pallette (8 bit to 10 bit and the reverse) conversion, this can also be done with Xtensa processors.
jett, you need to fully understand the terms and the Industry roadmap and then it makes sense. The big deal for Microsoft and Sony is game and media streaming in the home between platforms. A fully integrated ecosystem that makes PCs, PS4 and XB1 more valuable. It includes PCs and Game consoles as Media Hubs supporting DVR functionality both for Cable and Antenna TV. The roadmap included the FCC DSTAC Downloadable Security Scheme, ATSC 2 and HbbTV 1.5 as well as support for ATSC 3 when it comes; Vidipath supports all this by default with DLNA 4 needed for ATSC 2.0's 1080P and Microsoft has announced an Antenna TV DVR supporting 1080P which is only possible with ATSC 2.0 (ATSC 1.0 supports 480i to 1080i).
The above is why there is a delay in Vidipath implementation. You can draw conclusions on accessories like network and USB tuners being released next year and multiple STBs (Including the PS3, PS4 and XB1) and Dongles to allow older 1080P TVs to participate in next generation TV and Media streaming.
EDIT: PS4 firmware update 4.0 will be a media - DLNA 4 update supporting 4K IPTV from the cloud and will support the following:
HTML5 <video> MSE EME in the browser
Miracast and DLNA in Southbridge allowing DLNA push from a Phone or tablet
Netflix 4K
ooVoo
Vidipath for Cable TV = ATSC 2.0 media hub model and connected home streaming between platforms with PS4 as the Media hub
DVR for Antenna TV and Cable TV when the FCC supports a Downloadable Security Scheme
ATSC 2 and HbbTV 1.5 support (This requires DLNA 4 for 1080P)
HDMI 2
Lays the groundwork for UHD blu-ray (DLNA 3 does this, DLNA 4 is needed for the Digital bridge)
PS3 Web Browser Discussion (Vidipath, WMDRM10, Playready ND, Ultraviolet and the UHD blu-ray digital bridge use HTML5 <video> MSE EME and W3C extensions)
Hardware for Media Hub features in both the XB1 and PS4 "kinda confirmed"
All Playstation Platforms to use Playready which points to a significant PS3 update (Vidipath uses Playready DRM)
Interesting finds showing PS4, XB1 and PS3 media plans (Vidipath support for PS3 & PS4 shown as well as DSS and DVR)
This Thread showing PS4 and XB1 support for Playready ND and UHD Blu-ray
jeff_rigby
Banned
Comcast is offering Stream for $15/month. It's IPTV delivered Cable TV meant to compete with Playstation Vue. You can cable cord cut your Cable TV ($68/month) and still have a limited Cable TV lineup delivered by the Internet for $15/month. It's being launched in the same markets Playstation Vue is being launched as those Cable infrastructures can support it.http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9186 said:
This also explains the delays (ATSC 2.0 and Cable 1080P use h.264) and Downloadable Security is necessary for the cable industry to support consumer owned DVRs and STBs with Vidipath support (PS4, XB1 and PCs with Windows 10). DLNA 4 is necessary to Vidipath stream 1080P content = Playready ND plus Playready Porting kit 3 required by DLNA 3.
Syph Medwes
Member
jeff, you're awesome; merry christmas
I think the whole 4k is the new 3D fad.
While benefits exist, I'm sure I won't be trading my Full HD TV for a 4k one since I'm the only one in the house who can tell the difference in quality - and that's not always.
Sony is aware of this.
While the tech may be there - I believe Jeff - it may never come to use due to low demand.
While benefits exist, I'm sure I won't be trading my Full HD TV for a 4k one since I'm the only one in the house who can tell the difference in quality - and that's not always.
Sony is aware of this.
While the tech may be there - I believe Jeff - it may never come to use due to low demand.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Again, covered in the thread but perhaps hidden in walls of text. HEVC's primary use in both Netflix HD streaming and ATSC 3.0 will be to deliver 1080P and S3D with lower bandwidth and to allow multi-streams...and more streams/RF TV channel. UHD blu-ray will also be used to Multi-stream (5 channel) 720P VR. You can consider UHD blu-ray movies as a minor feature provided by the hardware and I am aware that Sony understands this. Sony released a paper on how to use the additional bandwidth provided by HEVC and it wasn't about 4k.
What is true for h.264 support in ATSC 2.0 is doubled for ATSC 3.0 using HEVC. The major features in ATSC 3.0 are XTV, HEVC and Mobile TV on Cell phones not 4K media.
{insert code here}
Member
4k TV's will, in time, replace HDTV's just like HDTV's replaced the old standard def televisions. This is nothing at all like 3D where you needed glasses and specific films/shows that were filmed in 3D. 4k is just a pixel bump and eventually, when costs reach mass market levels and the UHD library grows, more and more people will jump in. And after a decade of UHD there will be another pixel jump and we will all go to that and so on and so forth until someone invents a new way for us to watch movies.
Jeff, as much research and know-how you do it still isn't FACT in terms of something getting support. Sony could literally have a switch on all the PS4's they can flip, and they can still choose to instead only turn it on on newer models; or to never at all.
Until then it is purely speculation. The thread title needs changed.
Until then it is purely speculation. The thread title needs changed.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yes, you and others bring an interesting flavor to NeoGAF making it attractive and informative for subjects "beyond gaming",As a fellow Rigby, I fully endorse this thread.
Have a great Xmas Jeff.
anyone figured out what AMD was talking about with their semi custom win = beyond gaming.
Thanks and Merry Xmas to all of GAF.
What could you possibly be watching that you think this? Even if it's something lossy like Daredevil on Netflix 4K there is a noticeable improvement in picture. If you play PC games on a 4K TV then well, of course you'll notice.
4K content is coming out in droves yet but when 4K blurays start to hit the shelves I think you'll change your opinion.
family_guy
Member
Netflix 4k is more or less 1080p Blu-ray in quality right now. It looks better compared to their other streams because the other streams have never matched the Blu-ray in quality.
As far as the 4K fad thing that the other poster mentioned, I disagree. It's not a fad if they are making it the standard. 3D was always optional, but it will be very difficult to go into a store 2 years from now and be able to find a 1080p television.
More like 5-7 years instead of 2, but sure.
Of course but there is a noticeable difference. I just can't imagine not seeing any difference from watching something upscaled to actual 4K content.
All we need is sometime then 4K will be everywhere. There has to be something new that the uninformed will able to look at and go "I want that" and I doubt HDR or OLED will be it. Now I don't see the point of consoles getting 4K support so early since pretty much all TV's these days have Netflix, Amazon, etc built in.
That's just how it is. I watched a variety of content, being the most noticeable one a nature documentary actually.
The change from black and white to color was big. SD to Full HD was also a huge improvement. But until 8k or 10k hits, it just feels like 720p->1080p. Sure there is a gain and you can notice. But can you Grandma notice? How about if you have a 100" TV but you sit the family 8 meters from it?
A TV in my house is for the whole family and I can't justify the costs of a 4K TV to my wife if I'm the only one that can appreciate it. Sometimes.
The PS4's BD drive can't read 3 layer discs. No way for it to support 4K blu-ray.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/columns/my-two-cents/010716_1830
"Theres been some speculation that the PS4 could be firmware updated to allow Ultra HD Blu-ray compatibility, though Sony reps told us this was not possible, as the units built-in BD drive cant read the 3-layer media called for in the UHD BD spec. However, the company is considering a future enhanced PS4 model that would include an Ultra HD Blu-ray ready drive."
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/columns/my-two-cents/010716_1830
"Theres been some speculation that the PS4 could be firmware updated to allow Ultra HD Blu-ray compatibility, though Sony reps told us this was not possible, as the units built-in BD drive cant read the 3-layer media called for in the UHD BD spec. However, the company is considering a future enhanced PS4 model that would include an Ultra HD Blu-ray ready drive."
I suppose this settles it.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
I think this is thread worthy. Also I'm not surprised, considering that 4K players are gonna cost $400, and Sony aren't even making one yet.
Seems the time for speculating is over, the title should probably be changed at this point though.
Bitch Pudding
Member
So, PS4k will be a thing now, right?
Storm Raider
Banned
YianGaruga
Banned
Please don't lock it I want to read jeff's response
Please. I clicked this damn thread again and got rope-a-doped into thinking it was fact. Blah.
Graphics Horse
Member
wouldn't surprise me if they added it in later models as long as the new drives are still relatively cheap.
I do think that the title is a disservice not to GAF but to the general internets. Better change the title than lock it, because this obviously comes out first for a "PS4 4K BluRay" and high ranking in similar searches, it's engraved in the internets as fact. It is false advertising.
SlaughterX
Banned
The thread title needs to be edited or the entire thread should be locked as it's deceiving as fuck. Shut, the Amazon and Netflix apps don't even support 4k streaming so I wouldn't be so quick to confirm 4k bluray support...
This was obvious to anyone not named Jeff Rigby.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Ohh what a surprise Jeff Rigby's insane speculation that has no basis in reality was wrong again.
DarkJak101
Member
Sony needs to hire Jeff and start working on this!
Edit: Nevermind, reading the first page of the thread got my hopes up
Sorry, Jeff
Edit: Nevermind, reading the first page of the thread got my hopes up
Sorry, JeffDictator93
Member
Jeff man, I know you mean well, but a lot of this thread seems a bit like a PC point-and-click adventure game with circuit board backgrounds.
Secret
BluRay
jeff_rigby
Banned
I don't rely on the statements of others but on Facts verified from multiple sources if possible. I direct you to http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188528645&postcount=250
Facts:
The PS4 bootlog has the blu-ray drive as a BD-ROM drive
For BD-ROM there are only version 1.4 and Version 2 drives
A modern blu-ray drive is a version 2 drive able to read 4 layers.
There is no UHD drive, it's a Version 2 blu-ray drive that complies with the 2010 Patent, BD-R whitepaper and 2010 Panasonic-Sony tweek.
Do a search and determine if any drives sold from 2012 on were version 1.4 blu-ray drives?
Also in a Paper from the Blu-ray License office The Paper is talking about the MEDIA that is UHD not the drive and Licencing for the below which includes Game Consoles. Sony has never broken the Game console model with same family consoles with different features.
Facts:
The PS4 bootlog has the blu-ray drive as a BD-ROM drive
For BD-ROM there are only version 1.4 and Version 2 drives
A modern blu-ray drive is a version 2 drive able to read 4 layers.
There is no UHD drive, it's a Version 2 blu-ray drive that complies with the 2010 Patent, BD-R whitepaper and 2010 Panasonic-Sony tweek.
Do a search and determine if any drives sold from 2012 on were version 1.4 blu-ray drives?
Also in a Paper from the Blu-ray License office The Paper is talking about the MEDIA that is UHD not the drive and Licencing for the below which includes Game Consoles. Sony has never broken the Game console model with same family consoles with different features.
Again, is this only Microsoft's XB1 that is testing UHD Blu-ray media on a Version 2 drive. Shit storm coming if this is true.
crazygambit
Member
I don't know what to think.
Jeff clearly does his due diligence, but the title of the thread should definitely be changed to May or May Not support 4K Bluray.
Jeff clearly does his due diligence, but the title of the thread should definitely be changed to May or May Not support 4K Bluray.
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