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[Willco]

How can we still be getting Osama tapes? I thought Bush said he would find and kill Osama and that he was a high priority target?!?!?!

Osama is chilling with Ricky Williams in China, man. They're smoking up, listening to hip hop and recording music videos.

 

[DarienA]

Osama is chilling with Ricky Williams in China, man. They're smoking up, listening to hip hop and recording music videos.

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Raven.]

Hmmm... I wonder... estimated... 30% of the votes...

 

[Particle Physicist]

wow.. some of you people are fucken gross..

You people are delusional if you think who won the presidential race really changed whether Osama was going to try and attack America again.

exactly

 

[Nerevar]

You people are delusional if you think who won the presidential race really changed whether Osama was going to try and attack America again.

Actually, I personally believe one candidate would have been more effective in making America safer, which would deter Al Qaeda from launching attacks against the US.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

Actually, I personally believe one candidate would have been more effective in making America safer, which would deter Al Qaeda from launching attacks against the US.

how did you get that? I love Bush. Too cool.

Anyhow. I think terrorism is never going to leave the world now. The US, Europe, Australia.. etc. All because of Islamic extremist and religious beliefs. :mad Folks should just get on with living this life instead of worrying about the next.

 

[Guileless]

But if OBL can wipe out some morons who voted for Bush, you wouldn't see me crying.

That is the most offensive and tasteless thing I've ever seen posted on the OT. And that is really saying something. Posts like that have absolutely no place on any forum that aspires to some level of actual debate.

 

[Phoenix]

That is the most offensive and tasteless thing I've ever seen posted on the OT. And that is really saying something. Posts like that have absolutely no place on any forum that aspires to some level of actual debate.

Posts like that have no place on any forum anywhere regardless of whether or not there is debate or not. That's just improper.

 

[lachesis]

Funny that it's going to be one of those blue states (most likely NYC, where I live) that will get hit by any sort of terror.... and it's the rest of the red-neck country which fears it so much. It's nearly ironical, and sadly humorous...

lachesis

 

[Tenguman]

You know, I was thinking about this this morning...

At the core, these radical Muslims hate America for being a souless and godless country. Yet, the very people who re-elected George Bush want more religion in politics. Yet these are the very same people who re-elected the man that pisses those radical Muslims off so much.

 

[Particle Physicist]

You know, I was thinking about this this morning...

At the core, these radical Muslims hate America for being a souless and godless country. Yet, the very people who re-elected George Bush want more religion in politics. Yet these are the very same people who re-elected the man that pisses those radical Muslims off so much.

says who? some might.. but you actually think that the majority?

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I have no idea what Osama is going to do. We'll see if attacks Kerry states or not. If he truly wants peace.

The irony is that many of the Kerry states are more prone to attacks by OBL than the red states. Hell, the state that was attacked by OBL's goons went blue.

You know, I was thinking about this this morning...

At the core, these radical Muslims hate America for being a souless and godless country. Yet, the very people who re-elected George Bush want more religion in politics. Yet these are the very same people who re-elected the man that pisses those radical Muslims off so much.

They want more Christanity in politics not more religion. Let's see how the religious fevor goes when some Muslim kid wants to lead prayer from the Koran at the high school football game.

 

[Dilbert]

At the core, these radical Muslims hate America for being a souless and godless country. Yet, the very people who re-elected George Bush want more religion in politics.

No, they hate America because of our foreign policy. They could give a fuck if we establish a Christian theocracy in this country...just as long as we stay out of Middle Eastern affairs.

 

[Chrono]

No, they hate America because of our foreign policy. They could give a fuck if we establish a Christian theocracy in this country...just as long as we stay out of Middle Eastern affairs.

That is correct. I don't think they care how people live in the west. However, you have to understand that western culture is all over muslim countries and THAT'S what they hate. They don't hate american freedom because americans drink alcohol and watch movies with uncovered women mixing with men -- like you said they don't give a fuck -- but they do hate that those movies are making it to muslim countries. And the more the hate escalates the more this becomes about how the identity of westerners is just filthy and unnatural to this world. In a sense they do hate americans because of "who they are" but it's a bit more complicated then how bush puts it. What they hate more is the fact that their dream of a taliban-like wahabi ummah will pretty much never happen and that even fuels their anger to a higher degree.

If you look at their rhetoric, it’s more like “how dare those infidels do this or that in Palestine” and less like “there are foreigners assaulting muslims.” It’s like how a black man would be more hated for murder of a white man in the south (now or 50 years ago—whenever/whatever it happens) while a white man would just be another murdered.

Of course mixing this with what God wants you to do, how you (as a “jihadist”) have some mandate from the highest authority from the universe, and many brainwashed youth find the PERFECT outlet for frustrations and hate. It’s pretty sad.

 

[Diablos]

Osama has something in the works (or has already decided on something), and he'll end up trying to execute it -- regardless of who is president. I do think, however, that Bush getting re-elected does not help our security at all.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

How can we still be getting Osama tapes? I thought Bush said he would find and kill Osama and that he was a high priority target?!?!?!

Did you see the last video, for a man that supposedly on the run, with clothes that look like they had been to the cleaners and pressed. It didn't look like he was in a cave hiding. He has time to make videos and watch pirated copies of Farenheit 9/11.

Thats what I call taking care of your investment.

 

[xsarien]

No, they hate America because of our foreign policy. They could give a fuck if we establish a Christian theocracy in this country...just as long as we stay out of Middle Eastern affairs.

If I could tattoo this onto the forehead of every knee-jerk banshee who tries to shout me down in an argument over terrorism, I'd...be tired. And out of a lot of ink. But it'd be worth it.

 

[Guileless]

If I could tattoo this onto the forehead of every knee-jerk banshee who tries to shout me down in an argument over terrorism

Why would you want to tatoo such a ridiculously simplistic explanation for militant Islamic terrorism? They hate our foreign policy? How can you say with a straight face that Islamic fascists don't hate Western liberalism? And you can't make the distinction "oh they hate it but don't care if we do it over here." That was true throughout most of history but not anymore, not with the internet and satellite television and ubiquitous American popular culture. Everybody knows there's an alternative to medieval religous fascism.

As if people voluntarily commit suicide and mass murder because they simply have differences of opinion on foreign policy. Militant Islamic terrorism is a product of the pathologies and failures of the societies from which it originates. They can rely on any perceived foreign policy error they want to (and as evidenced by this thread many Westerners will eat it up), but the ultimate responsibility for such aberrant behavior rests on them alone.

 

[xsarien]

Why would you want to tatoo such a ridiculously simplistic explanation for militant Islamic terrorism? They hate our foreign policy? How can you say with a straight face that Islamic fascists don't hate Western liberalism? .

The same way you say that it's as simple as "they hate our liberalism." The full explanation, where I go on to explain our history in the region, how they perceive us as occupiers, and all that other fun stuff that some people willfully ignore won't fit on a forehead.

 

[Guileless]

Why did the 9/11 hijackers perceive us as occupiers? And you don't think they hate our liberalism? Why not?

 

[DarienA]

Has it been discussed yet? Was Osama's tape this year's October surprise?

 

[Cool]

Osama doesn't care if Bush or Kerry is elected.

Exactly, he SAID it himself. People act like Kerry and Osama Bin Laden sit in caves and play Old Maid together, Kerry has said many times he wants to bring Osama Bin Laden to justice via death. Geez.

 

[xsarien]

Why did the 9/11 hijackers perceive us as occupiers? And you don't think they hate our liberalism? Why not?

Actually, yes, they did. It's been a point underscored by Osama several times, even in his latest tape. The U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia, let alone the entire region, is a major sticking point with him.

Because "we're liberal" is a ridiculous argument simply because as far as the entire western world is concerned, we're not liberal. By contrast, we're actually the most prude. We can never have a civil, national debate on gay marriage without the entirety of the Republican base having a major hissy fit, the nation was more offended over Janet Jackson's breast being exposed than a President whose entire premise for war was blown out of the water, and we marvel - MARVEL - at the balls of basic cable when they let a curse slip through.

And forget about ever decriminalizing marijuana. The didactic nuts would have a collective stroke, and the tobacco companies would bitch and moan forever.

No. Just...no. If being a "liberal" country was the cause of their hate, Europe would be their target, not us.

 

[Dilbert]

Why would you want to tatoo such a ridiculously simplistic explanation for militant Islamic terrorism? They hate our foreign policy? How can you say with a straight face that Islamic fascists don't hate Western liberalism?

1) If you want to make the argument that our social and political philosophies necessarily put us into conflict with Islamic society, then I think you can tie in "hating Western liberalism." Otherwise, I think it's a shaky case -- how come the rest of "Western" society hasn't been targeted? There are places which are far more liberal than the United States.

2) "Medieval religious fascism" is a contradiction in terms. The primary components of fascism are an allegiance to the will of the state above personal concerns, glorification of military action, and a close tie between government and business, almost to the point of being state-run industry. Past instantiations of fascism have been explicitly ANTI-religious, though the above principles do not preclude religion from being a component in a new flavor of fascism. But, for Al Qaeda: no state, no business, no fascism.

 

[Guileless]

The U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia, let alone the entire region, is a major sticking point with him.

The US troops are gone from Saudi Arabia now, because Saddam is no longer in power. They were there because Saddam raped Kuwait and would have raped Saudi Arabia as well, if he could have. How can a few thousand troops--there at the behest of the Saudi government and designed to serve as a symbolic deterrent against invasion from a proven threat--reasonably be viewed as an occupation? What would have been the better alternative for the Saudis: a) Saddam continues from Kuwait on into Saudi Arabia, raping and pillaging like the Vikings did, or b)American troops send Saddam back to Iraq and a few thousand remain to deter Saddam from that course of action in the future. That is not an occupation, it's another excuse for a nihilistic mass murderer to justify his actions.

Y'all are misunderstanding my use of the word "liberal." I don't mean politically liberal as in liberal vs. conservative, but rather to describe essential Western institutions--a free press, freedom of religion, gender equality, the rule of law, and representative government--things all "liberals" and "conservatives" in the West accept as givens.

 

[xsarien]

Y'all are misunderstanding my use of the word "liberal." I don't mean politically liberal as in liberal vs. conservative, but rather to describe essential Western institutions--a free press, freedom of religion, gender equality, the rule of law, and representative government--things all "liberals" and "conservatives" in the West accept as givens.

And all things, again, that aren't exclusive to the United States. There's something unique about us that Al Qaeda and other Muslim radicals don't like, and it isn't our way of life. It's how we choose to deal with the middle east on both political and military grounds.

 

[Flynn]

And all things, again, that aren't exclusive to the United States. There's something unique about us that Al Qaeda and other Muslim radicals don't like, and it isn't our way of life. It's how we choose to deal with the middle east on both political and military grounds.

That and our cultural imperialism.

And don't mis-interpret my intent, but the English language and American consumer brands and behaviors spread fast and stick hard.

People who value their own cultures fear that the world could become one big strip mall and they see us as the driving force behind this change.

 

[Guileless]

2) "Medieval religious fascism" is a contradiction in terms. The primary components of fascism are an allegiance to the will of the state above personal concerns, glorification of military action, and a close tie between government and business, almost to the point of being state-run industry. Past instantiations of fascism have been explicitly ANTI-religious, though the above principles do not preclude religion from being a component in a new flavor of fascism. But, for Al Qaeda: no state, no business, no fascism.

I don't see the contradiction. Fascism is not, by definition, anti-religious in the way communism is. The Vichy leaders in France were staunch Catholics. The ultimate goal of militant Islam is to reestablish the medieval Islamic Caliphate, with one leader as head of both the "state" and the "church." In Islam, there was never any seperation between these institutions: the Prophet was both a religious leader and a political leader, unlike Jesus. "Allegiance to the will of the state" is allegiance to both the political state and the religious state, which are inseperable. Our Western concept of seperation of church and state is completely inimical to the medieval Islamic mind.

If there is no religious fascism, how would you describe the totalitarian theocracy of Iran?
(sorry for 2 posts, technical difficulties)

 

[KarishBHR]

should I be scared that Osama and Myself share a similar thought?

 

[Goreomedy]

Here's a question...

Let's say Osama is captured alive. After a trial, he's found guilty of his crimes and sentenced to death.

Should we televise the execution?

 

[Guileless]

And all things, again, that aren't exclusive to the United States.

Of course they're not exclusive to the US, I described them as Western concepts. They are the concepts that have proven to be the best way to organize society, which is why contemporary Western society is the envy of the entire breadth of human history. It's why U.S. embassies around the world hold lotteries for visas.

The United States is the target of militant Islam because it is the architect of the current world order, its chief beneficiary, and its chief guarantor. Sweden and China benefit as well, but the United States has been ceded responsibility to guarantee the global security that the vast majority of the world depends on for economic growth and progress.

One area in the world has refused to incorporate any of our core values, and it has regressed accordingly. Miltant Islam is not going to embrace Western modernity as India and China have, and in a globalized world their 13th century concepts cannot compete with it. The only choice left for them is to fight it.

Osama's foreign policy greviances are window dressing for the gullible. Speaking of which, how could the 9/11 hijackers reasonably view us as occupiers? You never answered the question. And you never told me which countries deserved liberation more than Iraq in the election thread.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

should I be scared that Osama and Myself share a similar thought?

I'm not exactly sure what your similar thoughts are, but I too find myself agreeing with OBL in some, if not many, instances.

Of course I don't want to condone any of his actions...but I can't say they're unjustfied.

 

[xsarien]

The United States is the target of militant Islam because it is the architect of the current world order, its chief beneficiary, and its chief guarantor.

And this has nothing to do with how "liberal" we are in relation to the rules set out by their culture. They don't like our unconditional support of Israel; they don't like that we hypocritically support their own governments while toppling others; they don't like that we come in and rarely show respect to their culture; they don't like that we come in at all, quite frankly. The militant Islamic terrorist is a xenophobe, and that's the best-case scenario.

Osama's foreign policy greviances are window dressing for the gullible. Speaking of which, how could the 9/11 hijackers reasonably view us as occupiers? You never answered the question. And you never told me which countries deserved liberation more than Iraq in the election thread.

The window dressing is the "They hate our freedom," defense. It's the most easily digestible by the masses. You can't expect your average American to understand the complexities of our foreign policy, nor can you expect the government to admit that this rage in the middle east is largely our own doing by short-sighted twits over the course of the past few decades.

And I didn't answer you because I covered it in a post before you even asked, I'm not going to be held accountable for you not reading through a thread before throwing down gauntlets.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

The next time Ann Coulter says something about bombing the New York Times headquarters, I better see you replying "Right on, baby!"

Maybe Maureen Dowd.

i thought bush was gonna announce that they captured osama within a week before the election? what happened guys?

He can run, but he can't hide. Or can.

Should I give a crap what a dude in a cave with a mental disorder thinks?

Fascism is not, by definition, anti-religious in the way communism is.

How is communism anti-religious by definition?

 

[ToyMachine228]

False

 

[Guileless]

And (the current world order) has nothing to do with how "liberal" we are in relation to the rules set out by their culture. .

You're totally missing my point; it has everything to do with it. Why are we not still in the Dark Ages? The Reformation, the Enlightenment, the development of capitialism, the rule of law, etc. Our liberal values are the reason we live such pleasant lives, and the spread of these ideas is the reason the quality of life in much of the rest of the world is increasing.

Where have these ideas been rejected, and what group of people crash planes into buldings? Do you not see a connection there? Why don't Chinese, or Argentineans, or Japanese organize global terror networks designed to murder on a massive scale? They have foreign policy differences with the West, don't they?

And I didn't answer you because I covered it in a post before you even asked, I'm not going to be held accountable for you not reading through a thread before throwing down gauntlets.

Are you talking about the 9/11 hijackers-occupation issue or the countries more deserving of liberation? There's been a flood of similar threads here recently and if I missed your answers I apologize. Please link, cut and paste, or somehow let me know where I can find your answers and I will read them.

 

[FightyF]

I actually think Osama wanted Bush to win. Everyone knows that everytime Osama puts out a tape or when the terror alert increases it helps Bush. Osama knows this as well. Bush's policy of invading other countries helps further his (Osama's) cause because it allows him to recruit more people. Furthermore, Bush's tax cuts and increased spending are bankrupting America. This is one of Osama's primary goals. Afterall, the WTC was chosen as a target because it represented the center of our economic strength.

If you read the transcript in it's entirity, he hints that he can make the US react by provocing them, and he says he makes them react the way he wants to. By focusing on Bush, perhaps he was pulling off some reverse psychology? But that's giving these retards too much credit...seriously.

Osama's foreign policy greviances are window dressing for the gullible. Speaking of which, how could the 9/11 hijackers reasonably view us as occupiers?

They view the US as backers of Israel. And we can't say they are wrong. Everytime a major World push for a peace plan occurs, the US is there to veto the action.

It's perfectly reasonable to have UN peacekeepers on the ground there, yet the US has blocked such efforts. To be frank, when it comes to Israel the US has not been fair. To assist the occupiers is a crime according to them, reasoning that makes sense, but it can't justify any actions against innocent people.

On the other hand, they may wonder what justify's action against their innocent people.

You never answered the question. And you never told me which countries deserved liberation more than Iraq in the election thread.

Perhaps I can answer...how about Tibet? Heck, how about Palestine? If Palestine were ever liberated and a democracy was put in place, the US would be heros in the eyes of all Arab civilians, and they would want the same in their own nations.

 

[Hitokage]

2) "Medieval religious fascism" is a contradiction in terms. The primary components of fascism are an allegiance to the will of the state above personal concerns, glorification of military action, and a close tie between government and business, almost to the point of being state-run industry. Past instantiations of fascism have been explicitly ANTI-religious, though the above principles do not preclude religion from being a component in a new flavor of fascism. But, for Al Qaeda: no state, no business, no fascism.

Considering the organization and finances of Al Qaeda, the distinction between an official state or business and an unofficial one is of arguable importance.

 

[Sirpopopop]

You're totally missing my point; it has everything to do with it. Why are we not still in the Dark Ages? The Reformation, the Enlightenment, the development of capitialism, the rule of law, etc. Our liberal values are the reason we live such pleasant lives, and the spread of these ideas is the reason the quality of life in much of the rest of the world is increasing.

Case in point: India. Liberal values have helped there.

They have a nice thriving tech industry in Bangalore, and one that is developing in Hyderabad. The second largest producer of films in Mumbai.

Oh shit... I forgot to mention the cesspools known as Chennai and Kolkata. I forgot to mention the fact that only a few there are getting rich as a result of globalization. Most people still live in squalid conditions. I forgot to mention that the government there is not really a true democracy but rather a kleptocracy.

Don't try and tell me differently. I've been there, I've spent months in India. Have you?

Where have these ideas been rejected, and what group of people crash planes into buldings? Do you not see a connection there? Why don't Chinese, or Argentineans, or Japanese organize global terror networks designed to murder on a massive scale? They have foreign policy differences with the West, don't they?

Where's my Bangladeshi terrorist network?

Are they not an Islamic country?

What other groups of people commit terrorist acts? See: Tamil Tigers. Not an Islamic group...

What about the IRA?

 

[COCKLES]

Where is Osama getting these tapes. Just put CIA microchips in every VHS cassette. Oh wait they already do?!?!

 

[videogamer]

Haha, he likes Kuchi. That guy has fallen off the face of reality some time ago. This is why the dems keep losing lately, their nut jobs are more outspoken, and more insane.

I have a hard time thinking thinking that Falwell and Robertson are somehow masters of tact and are less "insane".