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[duckroll]

Ten hours with a character should give a whole ton of experience you cannot gain just from knowing the general rules of the game. With Torb you would know from experience whict turret placements are better on each map depending on what characters you are facing, and when to best activate your ult. You will also know by instinct when to use your primary and alt fire on which characters, or when to just hide.

Obviously you can spend ten hours with a character and not learn a thing, but THAT is the difference between a good Overwatch player and a bad one. A good Overwatch player with ten hours into a character will have wanted to learn from mistakes, and will be better than a good player with zero hours in the same character. A bad Overwatch player could spent fifty hours and still be bad, but that's not the point here.

 

[optimus8936]

New OT soon.

I want to make sure I'm using Genji correctly.

I try to get behind enemies line and make them chase me in their spawn area. Getting a kill is never my real focus unless I know that I'm a hard counter (deflect on Bastion).

Also geez I wonder if I will get 300 coins for a gold skin.

Yeah, if you can't focus on kills, harassing your enemy is the best thing you can do to your enemy as Genji, and always be double jumping in random directions to be unpredictable. Having good accuracy is the hardest thing to get good at with Genji because of the jumping and stuff, but once you get mobility and accuracy down, your enemies will hate you forever.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

To be a useful Torb at a higher level of play?

You'd need to run him through a decent tour of all the maps against a variety of comps so you can learn the best turret spots. I've played him for seven hours and I'm still learning new spots each game. Or you'd be relying on your teammates to tell your the best turret placements, advice I've had to give before.

Reaper I can't really do more than guesstimate. I've watched teammates who were cutting through enemies as a Tracer or Roadhog suck when they play a Reaper trying to counter a pick. And when I played him in Beta, I found him more difficult to play properly than people seemed to indicate would be case. Like I indicated, he's an easy to play, tougher to master kinda character.

It would take almost just as long, because every character has those small adjustments you can make that you never notice until you play them for a few hours and you start to understand the character more. The best way to get good with characters is simple, practice, lots of it. No character can be picked up and instantly be god like. That's just nonsensical to think that way.

Like learning who he counters, who counters him, the best times to use ults, when to wraith, when to teleport, etc.

It's really rude of you to continue to call it "nonsensical".

Here's what I argue. It would take you ten minutes. Ten minutes to become as good as someone whose played Torbjörn or Reaper for ten hours.

You've seen Torbjörn's before, so you already know where to put turrets, unless you've been completely derping around, not being observant. His ultimate is obvious, creating armor packs is obvious. You can take ten minutes to familiarize yourself with his controls.

Reaper? Same. He's an extremely straightforward character. There are some minor details that you may not know, such as how wraith form not only makes you invincible but also makes you go faster and how you can use that, but that's about it. I have no idea why you're saying he's "tough to master". What exactly is tough? Of course a great player will be better than a bad player, but that's a player who is good at the game in general. I really don't see it as rocket science.

There. I've put out arguments for my cause. I don't know, maybe if you're not being observant at all, it might take you a tiny bit longer to understand the characters. I cannot for the life of me fathom why you see these characters as complex when they are the simplest characters in the game.

 

[GraveRobberX]

All of these "stacked characters" also happen to be the easiest characters to play. Doesn't take more than 10 minutes to learn how to play Reaper or Torbjörn. This goes for most characters, really, if not all, more or less. Characters take zero time to learn. I honestly don't see this as an issue. A player who has only played Reaper for 15 mins can do just as well as one who has played him for "60 hours"; assuming they're equally skilled in general.

Sorry but that's bullfuckingshit

Torb you have to learn Turret placement
Yeah the joke is drop turret, knock it to level 2, afk, get Ult, molten core, repeat

Good teams will destroy a shitty Torb hella quick
Good Torbs will put it in angles or lanes to make the other team think on how to overcome the turret, if they do, I bet you anything that Torb isn't clanking away at his Turret, he's busy coming from behind and alt fire you to death, take that extra gear piece you just dropped and create Armor packs galore

I played KOTH as Torb many fucking times, look at my result...

Do you really think a 10min Torb can match this?
Took me 15 hours of playing Torb, learning maps and setting the right placements to get the Victory
Then you see how many armor packs I've created...
Yeah not all about collecting 2 gear pieces and giving yourself +75 armor and telling the rest of the team to go fuck themselves
I was almost semi-support, my whole team kept saving my turret/me from losing my ability to chain kills, which netted me gears, for every 2 I collected, got 1 armor pack, I would collect 6 pieces and just throw them in the Objective area, just kept creating

________________

Reaper is just not some point, shoot, collect $200, and get the win
You have to learn to flank
Any Reaper worth their weight will flank, they will not just come straight up COD thinking double shotty 1887 I got dis'

Your first priority is to destroy their healer/secondary DPS Soldier/McCree in their ranks
You always want to kill, escape, never stay for too long, your a dead Reaper if you stay to long
Escape to heal, then return back for the tank or DPS that's now vulnerable
Most Reapers think they'll kill all 4 enemies moving a payload or KOTH area
You always want to be the flanker changing up their formation
Tracer and Reaper flanking and coming from behind can burn easily a minute off the payload timer, most forget to push and give chase, which is always ideal on defense.

Now this is my Competitive Reaper, I was going against Rank 65+ players, 20 hours played with him
Your telling me a 10minute Reaper can match this?:

It took me flanking, map knowledge, healing packs, giving chase when its certain I won't get flanked and most importantly covering my team from being flanked in the process

Most good Reapers just don't run towards you, they come from behind or drop on top of you
There's a reason we have that teleport ability, you won't believe how many times Hanzo or Widow feel aloof on how I reached them, even though the warp gives a huge audio ping to them
Its players learning on how to use the class right overtime that makes the difference

 

[Data West]

I'd say the majority of my POTGs as Tobjorn at higher levels are mostly be blowing people up with a shotgun, throwing armor to keep myself alive and rampaging through a team self-healing while my turret assists.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I wasn't really being sarcastic about picking Hanzo.

When you see Roadhog as Hanzo you should grin. There is no better ult battery and he can't even do anything to you at your best range.

Reaper, scatter arrow can wreck him and the sonic arrow can stop him sneaking pretty well. Not to mention if you see him teleporting he is pretty much a free headshot kill.

 

[duckroll]

Here's what I argue. It would take you ten minutes. Ten minutes to become as good as someone whose played Torbjörn or Reaper for ten hours.

Yeah I think we heard you the first time. It was nonsense then, and it's nonsense now. Adding more words doesn't really change that. This isn't some academic thing where we talk about studying the concept of something, understanding it, and that being the metric of knowledge. It's about instinctive play, and naturally knowing what works and what doesn't, a mix of learning from mistakes and muscle memory. That doesn't come from playing for ten minutes.

I'm sure there are SOME players who are geniuses when it comes to applying meta into practice and could play a character for ten minutes and just apply it really, really well. That's not the debate here. The majority of players who play games and do any sort of activity normally, gains experience from making mistakes and trying to apply what they know. To dismiss that IS nonsensical.

 

[optimus8936]

Torb and Reaper probably need the most map awareness of the characters because of torbs turret placements and Reapers flanking. I'm constantly moving my turret, even if they haven't killed it yet, so that they have to constantly be on the lookout.

Simple does not mean something is easy to get good at, it just means it's easy to pick up.

Edit: yeah, pretty much what Graverobber said ^^^

 

[mbpm1]

Here's what I argue. It would take you ten minutes. Ten minutes to become as good as someone whose played Torbjörn or Reaper for ten hours.

Really

 

[DiabolicalBagel]

It's true that a lot of Hanzo players would be worthless with other characters as well.

I still think he's close to a bottom tier character, and he's about the last character I would pick.

He's one of the more difficult characters to be useful with, but he's not inherently bad. Same can be said of Genji, behind a good player he will absolutely destroy the enemy team but behind a poor player he's pretty much a waste of a player slot.
None of the characters in OW are bad, if someone is being ineffective with a given character it's because they don't have the necessary skill to make that character effective.

---

Some characters have really low skill ceilings, some have really high skill ceilings.
Some require just a tiny bit of knowledge/skill to be fully effective, some requires tons before you even approach being useful.

It's just that bad players seem to gravitate towards the latter for whatever reason. Or maybe those picks just better highlight the average skill of players because they're not playing those with lower skill floors which allow even bad players to be useful.
You might argue that they should stick to the other characters unless they can be useful, but I'd argue: a) how are they going to learn? b) it's not their obligation to be useful to your game, they're in it to have fun.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Yeah I think we heard you the first time. It was nonsense then, and it's nonsense now.

Wow. This is just plain rude.

So I'm not supposed to explain my reasoning then? You'd prefer it if I just said something without explaining it? I've explained my opinion. I've given my reasoning. Yet you act like an arsehole. If you don't agree: it's fine. If you think it takes ten hours to learn where to place the turret because you haven't been observant at all while seeing other people play and have zero map awareness: it's fine.

Look, I'll stop. If you're just going to be an arsehole, why should I even bother? I'm sorry you don't agree with me.

 

[duckroll]

You've seen Torbjörn's before, so you already know where to put turrets, unless you've been completely derping around, not being observant. His ultimate is obvious, creating armor packs is obvious. You can take ten minutes to familiarize yourself with his controls.

Do you know -why- a turret is placed in a particular place in a given situation though? How aware are you of what your team makeup means to the other team at all times? When you're facing the other team, the considerations are how to counter what they have set up, but that rarely takes into consideration their mentality in the setup. Sometimes there's no thought to it, sometimes there is deep strategic value in how a turret is placed and where his other teammates are and what it is supposed to do.

Is the turret meant to counter a single specific character on your team who is giving them trouble while the rest of the team deals with the others? Is the turret positioned for maximum coverage to give the team more DPS because they might be lacking in range? Is the turret meant to be a surprise defense for anyone who sneaks around and flanks the payload while their team pushed yours back by moving forward?

How can you know any of these considerations when you are playing against them? When there's a good Torb on your team, how often do you hang around them and watch exactly what they're doing and ask questions about it to learn more? Does anyone really do that? If they do, then sure, they can learn from that but you're basically putting time into learning another character as it is, in that case, even if you're not playing it.

 

[optimus8936]

There's also the fact that 10 minutes is 1 match. 1 match!!!! It's already going to take you at least an hour to learn how to fight all the different characters as torb or Reaper, and 1 match can't give you that kinda insight.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Torb and Reaper probably need the most map awareness of the characters because of torbs turret placements and Reapers flanking. I'm constantly moving my turret, even if they haven't killed it yet, so that they have to constantly be on the lookout.

Simple does not mean something is easy to get good at, it just means it's easy to pick up.

Edit: yeah, pretty much what Graverobber said ^^^

A good Torb will never be complacent

A Good Torb will never leave their turret in the same place
Within a match I move my turret roughly 10+ times just to keep the other team guessing, that takes time to learn the skill on when to move, adjust, swap, you can't just drop turret and get it to level 2 easily, you need at least a 10 sec buffer
You can't just plop a turret and be on your merry way, not in competitive at least

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It's really rude of you to continue to call it "nonsensical".

Here's what I argue. It would take you ten minutes. Ten minutes to become as good as someone whose played Torbjörn or Reaper for ten hours.

You've seen Torbjörn's before, so you already know where to put turrets, unless you've been completely derping around, not being observant. His ultimate is obvious, creating armor packs is obvious. You can take ten minutes to familiarize yourself with his controls.

Since I've played the most Torb and haven't played Reap since Beta, I'll focus on Torb.

This is still absolute horseshit. If you've never played Torb before, you may know some of the turret spots, but you're not going to know all of them. In fact, you probably would even know most of them.

I seriously doubt that someone who's never played him has committed all of his turret locations to memory. More importantly, I doubt they've memorized which turret spots are best for which team comps.

If they had, I wouldn't need to continually give advice to teammates who are double my rank on where to place their turrets.

Any dumbass can learn to be as good a Torb as a basic quick player in about ten to twenty minutes, sure. But that person is not even remotely as knowledgable as someone who has actually dedicated time to him, even if he is on the extreme end of the easiness spectrum of the game.

A good Torb will never be complacent

A Good Torb will never leave their turret in the same place
Within a match I move my turret roughly 10+ times just to keep the other team guessing, that takes time to learn the skill on when to move, adjust, swap, you can't just drop turret and get it to level 2 easily, you need at least a 10 sec buffer
You can't just plop a turret and be on your merry way, not in competitive at least

Yep.

 

[mbpm1]

Wow. This is just plain rude.

So I'm not supposed to explain my reasoning then? You'd prefer it if I just said something without explaining it? I've explained my opinion. I've given my reasoning. Yet you act like an arsehole. If you don't agree: it's fine. If you think it takes ten hours to learn where to place the turret because you haven't been observant at all while seeing other people play and have zero map awareness: it's fine.

Look, I'll stop. If you're just going to be an arsehole, why should I even bother? I'm sorry you don't agree with me.

Your reasoning doesn't seem to work though. OW is more than just memorizing raw data.

The way you're approaching the game makes it seem like you haven't built a deep understanding of how the game works.

 

[optimus8936]

Wow. This is just plain rude.

So I'm not supposed to explain my reasoning then? You'd prefer it if I just said something without explaining it? I've explained my opinion. I've given my reasoning. Yet you act like an arsehole. If you don't agree: it's fine. If you think it takes ten hours to learn where to place the turret because you haven't been observant at all while seeing other people play and have zero map awareness: it's fine.

Look, I'll stop. If you're just going to be an arsehole, why should I even bother? I'm sorry you don't agree with me.

No one said it takes 10 hours to learn turret placement. There's when to use certain firing modes of his weapons, when to molten core, when to move your turret, how to survive I the front lines to try and get scrap, and who not to fight one on one. Then there's map awareness as well. Things like moving your turret an extra inch to the right can make a huge difference, so you need to learn every nook and cranny in every map.

 

[Ramirez]

I feel like that guy is trolling. Coming to grips with a characters abilities, and mastering them are two different things. Of course there's a difference between a 10 min Reaper and a 10 hour on, c'mon. lol

 

[Dead Prince]

New plz

 

[exYle]

Where dat OT4

 

[J Range]

Started my day at 49, battled my way up to 55! Level 60 play is no joke haha

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Started my day at 49, battled my way up to 55! Level 60 play is no joke haha

Damn. Kudos to you mate.

 

[Ken]

Where dat OT4

It died in placement matches.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Your reasoning doesn't seem to work though. OW is more than just memorizing raw data.

The way you're approaching the game makes it seem like you haven't built a deep understanding of how the game works.

It's the other way around. I have a deep understanding of how the game works.

Look, it's about map awareness. You've played every map countless times at this point, yes? And unless you've only played a specific class, chances are you've seen almost every part of every map (except some far-away places on the KOTH maps). And when you already know the maps, you can out one and one together.

I'm sorry, but you won't be able to make me change my mind.

I feel like that guy is trolling.

And people just continue to be rude, as usual.

Look, I'll stop now, for real. People keep quoting me and of course I must explain my reasoning, but whenever I do, I only end up getting even more shit. It's fine if you don't agree with me, but do you really need to do the name calling?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

"I am an expert, trust me."

 

[3DShovel]

So frustrating when you're playing Ranked and no one on your team except for you even touches the point... Like, stop chasing the fucking Roadhog and get in the point! He's not even remotely close to the hill!

 

[mbpm1]

It's the other way around. I have a deep understanding of how the game works.

I have no quarrel with you, but generally this isn't a good way to try to lead an argument XD

I'll leave it though.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I have no quarrel with you, but generally this isn't a good way to try to convince people in an argument XD

I'll leave it though.

I just felt attacked when you claimed I lack understanding of the game, when I'm the one arguing for the opposite.

It just makes me sad how people are doing all this name calling because they don't agree with someone.

 

[duckroll]

I have a deep understanding of how the game works.

Okay, what's your Battletag, what's your rank, and where are the videos of your superplays? Since you have such a deep understanding of how the game works, surely you can back that up right? What characters have you not played much of? Want to challenge other more experienced players to a match? Put your money where your mouth is, otherwise you're just sprouting nonsense while crying that everyone is being rude.

If someone came into a thread and started talking about how the Earth could be flat, we would laugh at him too.

 

[mbpm1]

I just felt attacked when you claimed I lack understanding of the game, when I'm the one arguing for the opposite.

It just makes me sad how people are doing all this name calling because they don't agree with someone.

You are not your knowledge of the game, chill

It's just that when you claim something like that, well..see above for what will happen

 

[Son Of D]

Alright moving on from that mess...

This is the best overwatch video ever made. Now he needs to do one for Hanzo/Widow players.

I just want to see his Reaper video. There's a goldmine of material to use.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Wow. This is just plain rude.

So I'm not supposed to explain my reasoning then? You'd prefer it if I just said something without explaining it? I've explained my opinion. I've given my reasoning. Yet you act like an arsehole. If you don't agree: it's fine. If you think it takes ten hours to learn where to place the turret because you haven't been observant at all while seeing other people play and have zero map awareness: it's fine.

Look, I'll stop. If you're just going to be an arsehole, why should I even bother? I'm sorry you don't agree with me.

Yes it takes time man, do you not realize there's like 15 spots easily I can mention to you right now to adjust to certain team compositions...

Here tell me if a 10 minute Torb can adjust to my 15 hour Torb...
Ready?

Hollywood, Objective A, I'm on Defend

My first choice will be my team composition
I have a Rein or Widow, my turret goes on the platform going up and down in the back to stave off flankers
I have not those 2, it goes on the path looking across the chokepoint
Oh enemy team has Widow, put turret in room adjacent to the control room
Oh we have a Symmetra and no widow/hanzo/rein on their side, put on balcony across from chokepoint
Oh the have Rein, but their team not using his shield, put it on the stairs opposite of chokepoint, completely opposite direction
Oh our team is double/triple Torb stacked...
Place one outside in the bushes by the hotel, make their backs netting my team a few free kills, hell it makes Attack weary of just rushing and at least be complacent to look around corners
Oh the have a D.Va, place in spot where she will have a good chance to be flanked or at the least very vulnerable after mech destroyed...
Hide it in the stairs looking at the objective/payload or across on second level balcony or underneath the balcony behind the table covering up location by the small health pack
Can place it on the boxes right on top behind the payload
On the payload
On the hill of the downward street that is the flanking alleyway

Yeah, do you see how many positions I've put and I haven't even gotten to 2-3 places depending on enemy setup still

 

[mehrmantrout]

And second ranked match lost, along with another rank decrease to 38.5. Gold in elims, objective kills and damage, I don't know what else I can do 😂

 

[Gator86]

Was a hair from 56 then got stuck with a rank 55 Bastion who kept suiciding on Genji. This fucking game. It's astounding how dumb some people are even at the higher ranks. You can't heal stupid, unfortunately.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Okay, what's your Battletag, what's your rank, and where are the videos of your superplays? Since you have such a deep understanding of how the game works, surely you can back that up right? What characters have you not played much of? Want to challenge other more experienced players to a match? Put your money where your mouth is, otherwise you're just sprouting nonsense while crying that everyone is being rude.

If someone came into a thread and started talking about how the Earth could be flat, we would laugh at him too.

Jesus, man. Why are you so aggressive? Why are you being such a straight up arse? I've already said that I'm done with the argument. I've said all that there is to say. I'm not saying I'm a pro gamer or anything of the sort, I just countered when he said I lack understanding by trying to justify myself. What's the matter with you? Why is this so important to you anyway? Why do you keep driving it on? Why are you so angry? You may even have better scores than me: I don't care.

Holy shit. This is so messed up. I'm seriously out now. You can continue to be rude, continue to name call me -- if it makes you happy, go ahead. I never knew you would get so upset over what started as a tiny argument regarding hero stacking. This has blown way out of proportion.

 

[TatteredHat]

I think I'm not going to play any more solo ranked anymore, it's just not fun. 5 game losing streak and my enjoyment for the game is all but gone.

Doesn't help that I just keep getting stomped as well, the games aren't even close.

 

[AlanOC91]

Opps wrong thread.

 

[mbpm1]

I think I'm not going to play any more solo ranked anymore, it's just not fun. 5 game losing streak and my enjoyment for the game is all but gone.

When you do group ranked the game pairs you against pro grouped teams tho

Trying to use R.Mika but getting my ass handed to me. Can't get any grabs off. Opponent hits me out of doing it every single time.

Can manage a throw here or there with a follow up combo if they bounce off the screen but that's it.

Really wanna get good with her but her moves seem to get countered constantly by fast paced opponents

Um...uh when did they add Mika to this game

 

[3DShovel]

I think I'm not going to play any more solo ranked anymore, it's just not fun. 5 game losing streak and my enjoyment for the game is all but gone.

It's brutal. Out of my 7 placement matches, I've lost 6. No one knows how to play this game on Xbox, it's insane.

 

[Canucked]

I hope we get a legendary when we open the new thread.

 

[TatteredHat]

When you do group ranked the game pairs you against pro grouped teams tho



Um...uh when did they add Mika to this game

If you solo queue you still get teamed/paired up against groups anyway, but that's almost never actually a benefit.

It's brutal. Out of my 7 placement matches, I've lost 6. No one knows how to play this game on Xbox, it's insane.

I got through my placement matches 6 wins / 4 losses but since then I've had like a 25% win rate.

 

[mbpm1]

I hope we get a legendary when we open the new thread.

I expect it. If not, literally unreadable.

 

[optimus8936]

I hope we get a legendary when we open the new thread.

Read the title of the current thread.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Overwatch |OT4|Gives us 10 minutes, you'll be pro in no time

 

[duckroll]

Jesus, man. Why are you so aggressive? Why are you being such a straight up arse? I've already said that I'm done with the argument.

You're not "done" with the argument, you never participated in it with good faith. We're not the assholes, you are. Let's look at this:

"Doesn't take more than 10 minutes to learn how to play Reaper or Torbjörn. This goes for most characters, really, if not all, more or less. Characters take zero time to learn. I honestly don't see this as an issue. A player who has only played Reaper for 15 mins can do just as well as one who has played him for "60 hours"; assuming they're equally skilled in general."

That's your original claim. You are basically saying that putting time into a character doesn't matter, just some arbitrary "skill" level inherent in a player. That's not really how things work. You may "disagree" but that's like disagreeing that the sky is blue. So it is no surprised that people will tell you that your claim is stupid. This is not name calling, it is insulting your claim, not you. What you said is stupid.

But that's not the main problem here, the main problem is that when presented with logical explanations of WHY what you said is stupid, from players who do play the characters, you instead cry about everyone being rude without bothering to debate the actual points. You basically replied that there is "no way" anyone will change your mind because you "believe" that, and that everyone is just being rude. Don't you think that's inane?

 

[eek5]

Okay, what's your Battletag, what's your rank, and where are the videos of your superplays? Since you have such a deep understanding of how the game works, surely you can back that up right? What characters have you not played much of? Want to challenge other more experienced players to a match? Put your money where your mouth is, otherwise you're just sprouting nonsense while crying that everyone is being rude.

If someone came into a thread and started talking about how the Earth could be flat, we would laugh at him too.

https://www.overbuff.com/players/psn/LonelyGreyWolf

 

[optimus8936]

Okay dude, he said the arguments over and he's done, you are starting to be a bit of a jerk to him, everyone has their opinions, and you can disagree if you want, but when someone says the arguments over, you should just stop there.

 

[mbpm1]

Man, this is going to be messy.

 

[duckroll]

Okay dude, he said the arguments over and he's done, you are starting to be a bit of a jerk to him, everyone has their opinions, and you can disagree if you want, but when someone says the arguments over, you should just stop there.

It's just frustrating when he never addresses any points that people put in to argue in good faith, and just says he's done!

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Okay dude, he said the arguments over and he's done, you are starting to be a bit of a jerk to him, everyone has their opinions, and you can disagree if you want, but when someone says the arguments over, you should just stop there.

Thank you

Man, this is going to be messy.

Haha, on all my years on NeoGAF, this is the most bizarre experience I've had.