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Panasonic on track for second $10B loss

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T

Takao

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
The problem is that the TV you bought may have been cheap for you to buy, but it was not cheap to produce. Almost all of Panasonic's TVs are sold at a loss.
Click to expand...

Why would a company sell TVs at a loss and not just scale down production? Panasonic doesn't have an ecosystem of content, or proprietary jank to shove onto people so it's very likely that once that TV is sold they're not going to earn another $1 from that customer until they need a new TV.
 
H

Hot Coldman

Banned
Buddha Beam said:
"Nintendo to buy Panasonic, announces plans to enter consumer electronics game"
Click to expand...

Panasonic-Q-Console-Set.png
Click to expand...

awww yeah
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Takao said:
Why would a company sell TVs at a loss and not just scale down production? Panasonic doesn't have an ecosystem of content, or proprietary jank to shove onto people so it's very likely that once that TV is sold they're not going to earn another $1 from that customer until they need a new TV.
Click to expand...

For the same reason Sharp have continued to try and make money selling 60" LCDs for $1200.

Stupid management.

entrement said:
Isn't a lot of this due to the Yen.
Click to expand...

For 2008-2011 sure, now, no.

They have had 3 years to adjust their business model to strong yen and are still trying to do it, Sony and Toshiba saw what was coming and made the relevant changes in 2008/9 and again after the Tsunami. Sharp and Panasonic have just started the process of restructuring that Sony and Toshiba began in 2008/9 and for that reason there is a good chance they will not survive (especially Sharp, whose bail out by Hon Hai is likely to be blocked by the Japanese government).
 
H

Heisenberg

Member
This is really sad to read.

I love my Panasonic plasma and the BD player I bought last year is awesome.

Recently got a Samsung plasma and really love it but I can't imagine prices will stay low in the TV business if one of the biggest competitors goes under.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
Hate to say it, but TVs have been commoditized. Most regular joe consumer care jack shit about black levels, contrast ratios, refresh rates, etc.

That want the biggest TV sans image quality. High end TVs are a very niche market. The best selling TVs are still shitty LCDs since they're cheap.

Moreover, Plasmas look bad in most retail showrooms, due to the glare of most big box retail displays.

Plasmas also get a raw deal with energy consumption. Another ding.
 
I

ihearthawthats

Banned
dad just bought a new samsung lcd hdtv. while not a bad choice, i was trying to convince him to get a panasonic plasma. he didn't listen to my advice and rather went with the salesman's advice that plasma is old tech and led's are superior in every way. i wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't a common occurence.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
ihearthawthats said:
dad just bought a new samsung lcd hdtv. while not a bad choice, i was trying to convince him to get a panasonic plasma. he didn't listen to my advice and rather went with the salesman's advice that plasma is old tech and led's are superior in every way. i wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't a common occurence.
Click to expand...

That happens a lot. So much clueless salespeople.

Lemme guess, was it Best Buy?
 
D

Dead Man

Member
ihearthawthats said:
dad just bought a new samsung lcd hdtv. while not a bad choice, i was trying to convince him to get a panasonic plasma. he didn't listen to my advice and rather went with the salesman's advice that plasma is old tech and led's are superior in every way. i wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't a common occurence.
Click to expand...

I think it is a very common occurance.
 
K

kylej

Banned
Ah shit time to buy a new Panny plasma. My current has been an absolute workhorse. I'm a Panasonic TV guy for as long as they continue to sell them.
 
M

MWS Natural

Member
Sucks. I got a Kuro before Pioneer went out of business and then bought a Viera and now this? It will be a sad day for any HT fan if Panasonic closes. I would hate to be forced to buy an LCD.
 
A

Azih

Member
I've got a theory that the Japanese were and are absolute masters of hardware design. This was great when hardware was improving by leaps and bounds but ever since hardware became so good that it's almost become invisible (you don't think about something that just works perfectly in the background after all) and all their competitors have caught up with them at that level they've lost the edge that justified their higher prices.
 
A

AstroNut325

Member
ihearthawthats said:
dad just bought a new samsung lcd hdtv. while not a bad choice, i was trying to convince him to get a panasonic plasma. he didn't listen to my advice and rather went with the salesman's advice that plasma is old tech and led's are superior in every way. i wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't a common occurence.
Click to expand...

Eh... as a owner of a Panasonic plasma (50GT30) I always recommend people get LCD/LED. I don't see myself getting another plasma. I prefer the overall picture of LCD/LED more than plasma. The ABL and dithering are way too distracting. And I always worry about IR/burn-in.
 
H

Heisenberg

Member
AstroNut325 said:
Eh... as a owner of a Panasonic plasma (50GT30) I always recommend people get LCD/LED. I don't see myself getting another plasma. I prefer the overall picture of LCD/LED more than plasma. The ABL and dithering are way too distracting. And I always worry about IR/burn-in.
Click to expand...

As opposed to blooming/flashlighting/clouding and motion blur?
 
Hari Seldon

Hari Seldon

Member
Korea seems to be kicking Japan's ass at everything these days. Love my Samsung LCD. My Panny BD player is a PoS (for netflix streaming, for BD playing which is 10% of its use it is alright)
 
C

CassSept

Member
As someone said before, just for clarification, $10B doesn't mean they REALLY lost $10B over the last year. $10B loss doesn't equal -$10B cash flows.

Still HOLY MOLLY, second year consecutively too, insane
 
H

HomerSimpson-Man

Member
Geez, the tv division is just hammering them like Sony's tv division did. Dammit Panasonic makes fantastic tvs.

Wasn't Panasonic and Sony doing some joint venture to stem the tides of losses because of the tv division?
 
A

Alchemy

Member
This is what happens why you try bullshit ways to lower the lifespan of long lasting electronics like TVs by constantly introducing features that consumers don't want.
 
A

AstroNut325

Member
Alchemy said:
This is what happens why you try bullshit ways to lower the lifespan of long lasting electronics like TVs by constantly introducing features that consumers don't want.
Click to expand...

In 1992 a typical 35" CRT TV costed upwards of $2000 USD. Consumers wanted cheap. Manufacturers achieved it and went beyond. Now you can get 50+" TVs for under $500. All the while sacrificing margins and quality. Now consumers expect their future TVs to also be low-margin $500 units and expect them to last over a decade. So here we are with almost all the major electronics players struggling because they gave consumers what they wanted.

Edit:
It seems like the internet wants all the hardware companies in the world to be like Google. Offer software/web services and make most of their money on that and offer the hardware at cost!
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
HomerSimpson-Man said:
Geez, the tv division is just hammering them like Sony's tv division did. Dammit Panasonic makes fantastic tvs.

Wasn't Panasonic and Sony doing some joint venture to stem the tides of losses because of the tv division?
Click to expand...

Yes, for 2014 delivery of OLED. However, reports have stated that Sony are ready CLED for 2013 and will come in at half the price of OLED. Since Sony are producing these sets in Japan and they have the IP locked up, if it does prove true that it is half the price and ready for 2013, Sony will clean up the high end for the next few years.

I know Sony have been working on CLED since around 2007 when they decided that OLED, SED and FED were not marketable in sizes larger than 30" and this was their final hope for the flat screen market to make something better than CRT. If this doesn't work out for them and printed OLED with Panasonic doesn't work out then I wouldn't be surprised if Sony bowed out of TVs altogether.
 
D

Dead

well not really...yet
AstroNut325 said:
In 1992 a typical 35" CRT TV costed upwards of $2000 USD. Consumers wanted cheap. Manufacturers achieved it and went beyond. Now you can get 50+" TVs for under $500. All the while sacrificing margins and quality. Now consumers expect their future TVs to also be low-margin $500 units and expect them to last over a decade. So here we are with almost all the major electronics players struggling because they gave consumers what they wanted.
Click to expand...
Pretty much.
 
H

HomerSimpson-Man

Member
AstroNut325 said:
In 1992 a typical 35" CRT TV costed upwards of $2000 USD. Consumers wanted cheap. Manufacturers achieved it and went beyond. Now you can get 50+" TVs for under $500. All the while sacrificing margins and quality. Now consumers expect their future TVs to also be low-margin $500 units and expect them to last over a decade. So here we are with almost all the major electronics players struggling because they gave consumers what they wanted.

Edit:
It seems like the internet wants all the hardware companies in the world to be like Google. Offer software/web services and make most of their money on that and offer the hardware at cost!
Click to expand...

Sounds about right. My dads old Sony Trinitron back the mid-late 90's costs well over a $1000 at 35". It lasted a bit over 10 years before it finally gave out.
 
S

Shalashaska161

Member
Damn that sucks. Panny plasmas are top notch , but losses like that obviously aren't sustainable. Here's hoping they can find some way to stay around that doesn't involved dropping their TV business.
 
A

AstroNut325

Member
HomerSimpson-Man said:
Sounds about right. My dads old Sony Trinitron back the mid-late 90's costs well over a $1000 at 35". It lasted a bit over 10 years before it finally gave out.
Click to expand...

Our Sony Trinitron CRT did not give out! Even after 12 years of use! We only got rid of it because I needed HDMI and 1080p for blu-ray/games.
 
H

HomerSimpson-Man

Member
AstroNut325 said:
Our Sony Trinitron CRT did not give out! Even after 12 years of use! We only got rid of it because I needed HDMI and 1080p for blu-ray/games.
Click to expand...

I had a old 27" JVC tv that lasted 17 years, we got rid of it because we were moving and weren't using it anymore (the colors were washed out and bleeding like crazy, but damn if it still didn't work like a champ).

They really don't make tvs like they used to. I work retail so I see a lot of tv being brought for service that didn't even last 2 years nowadays on flatpanels, Samsungs being the most frequent. I bought my Samsung 40" LCD over 5 years ago, still going strong, but then again 5 years ago flat planel tvs were much more pricey. The equivalent tv would be less than $500 now, when it was around 2 grand back then.
 
Phoenix

Phoenix

Member
Takao said:
How much money do these guys have in their reserve? I can't imagine it's much with continued losses of this scale.
Click to expand...

Panasonic is a multi-trillion (yen) earning company (7.85 Trillion (yen) in sales in 2012). The key to understanding why they are doing so poorly is to understanding the $765 BILLION (yen) in unusual expenses they took on in 2012.

The company has over 560 billion (yen) in cash reserves.

You guys are talking about obscenely large companies - they have obscenely large pockets.
 
B

Boerseun

Banned
Here in Germany you can buy low-cost television sets with brands most of you have never even heard of (I'll bet), manufactured in Germany (I was surprised too), with performance comparable to east Asian sets costing three to five times as much. Why spend more when you don't have to?
 
S

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
TUSR said:
How can one continuously lose 10B and still exist.

On another note: I have an old ass DLP Panasonic TV that I still use. Love it.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that when a large company posts a "loss" that doesn't mean they lost money. It's means they are that much short of their earnings projections.
 
A

Admiral Bone to Pick

Banned
Phoenix said:
Panasonic is a multi-trillion dollar earning company (7.85 Trillion dollars in sales in 2012). The key to understanding why they are doing so poorly is to understanding the $765 BILLION dollars in unusual expenses they took on in 2012.

The company has over 560 billion dollars in cash reserves.

You guys are talking about obscenely large companies - they have obscenely large pockets.
Click to expand...

I'm going to assume you mean yen because Panasonic's market cap is a little over $12 billion.
 
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