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Paradox Grand Strategy - Thread of Fighting WW2 as Bithynia
- Thread starter Walshicus
- Start date
TheFightingFish
Member
So what are folks thinking about this Crusader Kings II business? I've read a review or two and it sounds interesting, but I'm not really an expert on Paradox games. I got into EUIII and really loved it. But when I tried Hearts of Iron II I really found it unfun. They both have a moderate bit of complexity and some odd UI, but with EUIII I felt like I was making interesting choices to rule a nation, while with HoI I felt more like I was middle management in a factory at times. So I'm going back and forth on Crusader Kings II (on the Amazon sale) trying to think if it will be a good fit for me. Any opinions?
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Crusader Kings II can be fun, or it can be an exercise in head splitting frustration as you wrestle with the wonky A.I., still-unbalanced-after-many-patches mechanics and realize that your most dangerous opponent is a bad dice-roll.
Once you have a country of sufficient size to throw some influence around, every time your king dies half your country will descend into a bloody civil war. Letting your vassals have vassals is a recipe for disaster, but the game is trying its hardest to force you to do it anyway, with your subjects constantly whining that people who should be THEIR du jure subjects are instead answering directly to you and huge relation hits caused by holding too many duchies directly.
I'm not sure if they've fixed it in the new expansion, but combat when I played was terribad. The side with more troops won 99% of the time, and as soon as you wiped out the enemy armies they would instantly raise more levies, over and over and over and over, and eventually your army would be worn down with no way to decisively defeat your opponents short of constantly disbanding and re-raising your own troops, rotating mercenary armies and so on. If you were fighting some small time player it was ok, but whenever you waged a holy war against the Moors or tried to attack England it was just enough to pull your hair out in frustration.
I stopped playing because I realized that my sources of frustration were the fundamental mechanics of the game itself. The things I was trying to "get past" would always be there, because those things themselves are supposed to be what you enjoy doing in the game. It's NOT like EU3, it is NOT like HoI or Victoria. It's its own beast, and you should download the demo to determine whether its for you or not. I've given very negative impressions here, but many other people enjoy the game greatly, so do not take this as an authoritative look at the game.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
I've never seen the AI actually form Italy or Germany, probably because it's not great at dealing with the HRE mechanics. Anyway, I finished my first very hard game with Byzantium, 1410 start:
I think that I caught some early breaks that would've destroyed most Byzantium attempts. Early in the game, Castille wiped out most of the Ottoman forces for me without actually taking any provinces in the peace deal, so conquering Anatolia was a simple matter. Most of the next hundred years were spent languishing under the oppression of the Golden Horde to the north and the Timurids to the south, but by the mid 16th century, now fully westernized, I conquered the Timurids territory all the way to India and then used the final years of the holy war CB to declare war on Hindustan and the rest of the Middle East.
Apart from securing the remaining unconquered provinces in India, Asia held little interest for me, so I turned my attention back to Europe, declaring war on Naples, which brought in all the major naval powers: Portugal, Castile, and Great Britain. This allowed me to gain a foothold in Italy and Iberia. But my expansion was mostly blocked by Bohemia, holy roman emperor and my nominal ally, who now stretched all the way to the Pacific coast, so in 1771 I decided to betray them. I spent the next 50 years trying to build borders in Europe that resembled the Roman Empire at the greatest extent of its power without going over the infamy limit, a goal I didn't quite achieve. But for my next game I might form the real Roman Empire with Death and Taxes and then try Victoria 2, something that I've wanted to do for a long time.
Edit: I looked it up and it seems like I'll have to play as Byzantium again to form the Roman Empire. Not something that I really want to do, but this time I'll probably confine myself to the true contours of the actual Roman territory as it existed maybe during Hadrian's reign.
I enjoyed Crusader Kings II somewhat, but in the end I went back to EU3 for the most part because Crusader Kings II has lots of micro-management that got on my nerves. Maybe I was just trying to go too quickly and was being impatient, but constantly having to do things such as educate all my children and nieces and nephews etc. as well as having to arrange marriages all the time sucked the fun out of it for me. Some people like that stuff though, but it is just not for me. I did buy the expansion though and will give it another playthrough, I wish you could do things like auto-educate though heh.
Game of Thrones mod for CK2 has been updated to v0.2:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?610007-Mod-A-Game-of-Thrones
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?610007-Mod-A-Game-of-Thrones
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
If you don't educate people, you will get approached by AI characters asking to educate them.
If you don't pay attention to your heirs, though, you could easily wind up with an heir belonging to a foreign culture or non-state religion, which provides big relations hits to the rest of your nation.
Oh I didn't know about the first part! I will have to give that a try. I know to keep a close watch on my heirs though, my heir becoming a foreign culture is what ruined my last game.
Basileus777
Member
I haven't played HOI3 in forever and have an itch to do so. What mods are worth looking at for FTM?
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
CKII on sale today. I picked up all the DLC.
I just bought Europa Universalis III Chronicles on the Steam sale and decided to have a go at Tibet. I've zero experience with any Paradox game but I enjoy a good bit of strategy gaming here and there.
I was overrun by the Mongol hordes in five years and made a vassal.
Tonight I'll go through the tutorial mode, lol.
I was overrun by the Mongol hordes in five years and made a vassal.
Tonight I'll go through the tutorial mode, lol.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Stay strong! Well answer any Qs you have herein.
My first word of advice is to stay away from a nation like Tibet for now... give a nation such as France or England a try first heh.
Are those the ones with Intel 3000HD or something?
Then no. At least, not in Mac OS. There's some problem with that, it seems. You can run it in Windows though.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
After playing Death and Taxes for a short time, I would have to agree that there are elements of it that are broken, even beyond the infuriating aspect of the thriving colonies popup. I like what the mod does with sliders and national ideas, but somehow it actually manages to make the combat worse. There is something about the game they changed - I'm not sure what - that makes an opponent's manpower inexhaustible. No matter how many troops you defeat, I've noticed that they can rebuild most of their entire army within a year. This basic scenario played out over and over in the game I've been playing. Even when an opponent has high war exhaustion and low stability, the country only falls apart in rare circumstances, because they can keep recruiting more men without any trouble. You literally have to occupy all their provinces before they'll stop. In the vanilla game, I always got the impression, even on the highest difficulty levels, that a country's ability to prosecute a war slowly dwindles as their original armies are defeated, but not in Death and Taxes. Combined with the hyper-aggressive AI and their inherently stingy nature, in that they'll risk personal annihilation before giving you a decent peace deal, every war becomes a tedious life and death struggle.
Worse, D&T doesn't actually fix any of the issues with the original game, and in some cases even exacerbates them. The AI is just as reckless with spies as ever, and the fact that the chance of success is low, or that they aren't actually accomplishing anything, doesn't seem to deter them.
D&T does have the benefit of deepening the game's mechanics, but some of the additions make little sense. The industrialization decision in particular is disappointing and doesn't actually mirror historical reality. The entire thing should be slightly more involved than selecting a decision and losing nothing more than money and stability.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I only play D&T now for it's formable nations and increased timeline. The infinite armies is definitely a problem, and the A.I. has no conception of a limited warfare. Every fight you have with a great power is total-war to the bitter end. The A.I. gets big handicaps in its favor, such as significantly lowered attrition and (I think) increased manpower reserves. They are programmed to support the largest armies they possibly can, frequently going beyond the support limit and almost perpetually minting to support these vast armies, even in peace time! This is ridiculous, and once you move beyond the early game, Bohemia and any other strong European nation will have gargantuan military force, permanently, that they can seem to reinforce indefinitely. They will move their armies in vast blobs that seem to take no attrition unless you scorch the earth, while your smaller stacks take huge attrition that skyrockets your War Exhaustion. When you play these countries, they are somehow HUGELY WEAKER than when the A.I. plays them. Brandenburg w/ control of Pomerania under A.I. control is a very strong nation capable of fielding large armies. Under human control it's a weak nation capable of fielding middling armies. Bohemia and Austria are ridiculous power houses that field twice the men you can ever hope to field at that size when you control these nations.
The game was made by people who think that Very Hard difficulty is too easy, and many of the changes made were to increase the difficulty for the human player in light of this. To me, it just ends up being infuriating and unfair, because you know the A.I. is cheating. But there are some good things too. The A.I. colonization direction and limitations on who can get QFTNW make MUCH neater colonizations of the Americas. That's probably one of my favorite changes actually. I agree Industrialization is laughable, and IMO the game should still stop at 1821 without industrialization (but keep the extended start date of 1356).
The game was made by people who think that Very Hard difficulty is too easy, and many of the changes made were to increase the difficulty for the human player in light of this. To me, it just ends up being infuriating and unfair, because you know the A.I. is cheating. But there are some good things too. The A.I. colonization direction and limitations on who can get QFTNW make MUCH neater colonizations of the Americas. That's probably one of my favorite changes actually. I agree Industrialization is laughable, and IMO the game should still stop at 1821 without industrialization (but keep the extended start date of 1356).
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
One of my biggest gaming pet peeves is when a developer compensates for poor AI by giving it advantages that you yourself do not have. Higher difficulty should actually mean better AI, not just larger constraints for the player. And it's not like the AI is "dumb". In fact, it can be improved by just a few changes. For example, the developers should give the AI more limited goals, whereas now the AI enthusiastically fights every war that it find itself embroiled in. As far as I can tell, war capacity is the most important guiding ethos that the AI uses to determine whether to continue with a war (though I think there are other practical concerns at work too). They never appear to consider whether it is in their strategic interests to fight - a factor that would enter into any human calculation.
But perhaps the biggest problem is one of military strategy. The AI almost never deviates from its hyper-aggressive nature, which makes it easy to exploit. The AI should be able to read the situation and react accordingly instead of simply rushing across the border to attack. It's amazing how many strategy games get this aspect wrong, and even in subsequent expansions the AI question is never properly addressed.
Anyway, there is something else about Death and Taxes that I noticed. Is it even possible to reach naval level 100? I'm actually several years ahead in naval tech, but I don't see how it's attainable at my current pace, which means that it's impossible to actually build three-deckers at all.
The largest changes in Divine Wind are to east Asian (particularly Japan) and horde nations, but even if those things don't appeal to you, I think the graphical improvements alone are worth it. There are also some changes to diplomacy and the HRE mechanics.
Nah, EU3 = $7.49
Would you really want to go back to In Nomine? Chronicles is the one to get.
True. Everyone should still buy!
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Trying an Epirus > Greece D&T game myself. Game has now basically ended, because the ottomans are never going to let go of a grudge and will not accept any peace that doesn't involve either Constantinople or half of mainland Greece.
The outrageous fucking bullshit involved with the AI laughing in the face of attrition has driven me to the point where I am contemplating real life suicide. Their stacks would fall victim to hunger in the vanilla game, but somehow the provinces I OWN which can only support 12 regiments have 14 enemy regiments on them, taking no month-over-month losses AFTER I SCORCHED THE EARTH. There is also some bizarro shit going on with D&T where Constantinople, a level 3 fort, is surrendering after only a few months without the enemy storming it. And rarrgh, fighting in mountains with early game eastern units vs muslim units is an exercise in keyboard smashing frustration. My units have a whopping 0 defensive stats, except cavalry, which have ONE defensive morale. Alternatively, if I attack, where my units actually have morale, I get -5 mountain penalties for attacking. I have a fucking 6/6/5 god-tier general, but he can't do DICK.
The outrageous fucking bullshit involved with the AI laughing in the face of attrition has driven me to the point where I am contemplating real life suicide. Their stacks would fall victim to hunger in the vanilla game, but somehow the provinces I OWN which can only support 12 regiments have 14 enemy regiments on them, taking no month-over-month losses AFTER I SCORCHED THE EARTH. There is also some bizarro shit going on with D&T where Constantinople, a level 3 fort, is surrendering after only a few months without the enemy storming it. And rarrgh, fighting in mountains with early game eastern units vs muslim units is an exercise in keyboard smashing frustration. My units have a whopping 0 defensive stats, except cavalry, which have ONE defensive morale. Alternatively, if I attack, where my units actually have morale, I get -5 mountain penalties for attacking. I have a fucking 6/6/5 god-tier general, but he can't do DICK.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
Yeah, that's why my first game with D&T is going to be my last one, at least for the foreseeable future. I think the most frustrating experience I've had with EU3 was a war with the Mamluks in D&T. With my manpower gone, I had to trek all the way down through the Levant and then into Egypt to stamp out all their regiments before they could assemble more 15k stacks, which, after a decade, were still in endless supply. WE was reaching its maximum, my legitimacy was down to 60, and all I extracted out of them was a single province, maybe two. The only consolation is that I got to stand back and watch as their country fell apart. Fortunately, D&T somewhat makes up for this frustrating experience by allowing for a greater reduction of WE during peace. It makes it easier to recover from particularly bad wars.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
I know I said in my previous post that I wouldn't play D&T again, but all the recent Epirus to Greece games I've seen have inspired me to try one for myself. It took three separate attempts before I succeeded. The first one ended in failure after a few years once Serbia decided to invade. The second one actually lasted for a few decades until Aragon inherited Trinacria and the greedy bastards decided that they wanted all of Greece.
The third game (though filled with a little tedium and waiting around for something to happen) has gone splendidly because I was able to create a Balkan alliance with Bulgaria as my ally and Serbia and Byzantium as my subjects, the latter of whom I lucked into. The Byzantine king miraculously died without an heir a year after taking the throne, which left the entire country to me. That was very selfless of him.
There weren't many opportunities to expand early in the game, but fortunately all that waiting around paid off. The Ottomans got into a war with every major power in the region and their army was basically annihilated, which allowed me, with only 2,000 troops, to assert myself amid the chaos and take a few of their provinces. As you can see below, most of Anatolia has been conquered since then, and I have also inherited both Serbia and Byzantium. But apart from forming Greece I'm not sure what my goals should be for the rest of the game.
The third game (though filled with a little tedium and waiting around for something to happen) has gone splendidly because I was able to create a Balkan alliance with Bulgaria as my ally and Serbia and Byzantium as my subjects, the latter of whom I lucked into. The Byzantine king miraculously died without an heir a year after taking the throne, which left the entire country to me. That was very selfless of him.
There weren't many opportunities to expand early in the game, but fortunately all that waiting around paid off. The Ottomans got into a war with every major power in the region and their army was basically annihilated, which allowed me, with only 2,000 troops, to assert myself amid the chaos and take a few of their provinces. As you can see below, most of Anatolia has been conquered since then, and I have also inherited both Serbia and Byzantium. But apart from forming Greece I'm not sure what my goals should be for the rest of the game.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Through immense save/load abuse and sphering people, I managed to surrender to the ottos in the last screenshot without giving any land up.
This is the status of Greece now:
This is the status of Greece now:
Picked up CK2 in one of the Paradox bundles after reading the Somethingawful LP which almost made the game look easy to play... well, I've figured out the interface and mechanics mostly I think, but I'm still a bit overwhelmed by all the characters to keep track of. So many relatives to find wives for...
I'm really interested in this genre so I'm going to keep trying, also got EU3 Chronicles but that looks like it's even more complicated.
I'm really interested in this genre so I'm going to keep trying, also got EU3 Chronicles but that looks like it's even more complicated.
Setre
Member
Crusader Kings II is like crack to me, I've put in 264 hours and still love it. I suggest starting out as the Duke of Brittany. You're not a King yet so you still have something to strive for. It's not that hard to take the counties from your vassals and Ireland isn't too far off to expand onto. If you want you can pledge your allegiance to France but they've never bothered me in any of my games.
Mr. Luchador
Member
Started a game with the latest version of the GOT mod for CK2. Started as Bear Island. Man its good.
Sat and allowed the wars to melt away while I got to grips with the 'new' maps and characters. Old Bear starts as ruler of Bear Island, and has Longfang (1 of only a few Valaryian Swords available in game). Jeor is married to someone.
Old Bear builds alliances across the North by marrying his Sister off to a Karstark, as well as arranging to marry a young Karstark himself.
He also looks South and decides to arrange a marriage for his Son (who's wife has recently died), Jeor, with Cersei (
)
... laughed far too much at this. Characters seem accurate!
As the Kingdom settles down and Robert unites it under the Iron Throne, it is time to look North and at the Wildlings who have been gaining a bit of power and momentum.
A claim is settled on the Ice Bay Shore and war is declared. The Karstarks join in and lead the charge.
However, the attack on the Wildlings seems to have provoked them as they launch an attack on The Wall and the Nightwatch.
Sat and allowed the wars to melt away while I got to grips with the 'new' maps and characters. Old Bear starts as ruler of Bear Island, and has Longfang (1 of only a few Valaryian Swords available in game). Jeor is married to someone.
Old Bear builds alliances across the North by marrying his Sister off to a Karstark, as well as arranging to marry a young Karstark himself.
He also looks South and decides to arrange a marriage for his Son (who's wife has recently died), Jeor, with Cersei (
hopefully she's not as twisted as in the books right?
... laughed far too much at this. Characters seem accurate!
As the Kingdom settles down and Robert unites it under the Iron Throne, it is time to look North and at the Wildlings who have been gaining a bit of power and momentum.
A claim is settled on the Ice Bay Shore and war is declared. The Karstarks join in and lead the charge.
However, the attack on the Wildlings seems to have provoked them as they launch an attack on The Wall and the Nightwatch.
So I think I'm figuring out the game, even though I'm still making some mistakes here and there when it comes to anticipating how titles are passed on.
I've conquered half of Ireland now without much problems (then again I think I'm playing on Easy), and now my son and spymaster got killed. I have the name of the killer, and after spending some time searching for him (why aren't names hotlinked??), it turns out he's in the court of one of my direct vassals. So I thought I'd do something about him, but I really don't have a valid reason for imprisoning him? Is there a way to make his crimes known or something?
I've conquered half of Ireland now without much problems (then again I think I'm playing on Easy), and now my son and spymaster got killed. I have the name of the killer, and after spending some time searching for him (why aren't names hotlinked??), it turns out he's in the court of one of my direct vassals. So I thought I'd do something about him, but I really don't have a valid reason for imprisoning him? Is there a way to make his crimes known or something?
Prophane33
Member
For those that care Project Truman livestream is going on: http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive
Basileus777
Member
EUIV confirmed
Mr. Luchador
Member
Yes, please.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
A (vague) list of features:
- Take your own decisions: Nation building is flexible: decide your own form of government, the structure of your society, trade politics and more. The possibilities are endless.
- Use your Monarch Power: Experience the new system of monarch power where your spread of choices is influence by the caliber of the man you have at the top. Do you have a warrior King? Then it is time to make war.
- Experience history coming to life: The great people and personalities of the past are on hand to support you. Thousands of historical events guide you, with unique different flavor depending on the country you play. Have more than a thousand historical leaders and over 4000 historical Monarchs at your disposal.
- The world is now your playground: Players can enjoy over 300 years of gameplay in a lush topographic map in full 3D. Lead any one of more than 250 countries that originally existed during the game’s extensive time span.
- Experience the all new trade system: The trade system adds a new dimension to the great trade empires of the period. Seize control of key ports to expand your trade, support it with your powerful fleet and the wealth of the world will flow to you.
- Bring out your diplomatic skills: Deeper diplomatic gameplay, with coalitions, threats, fleet basing rights and detailed support for rebels. Introducing unilateral opinions, a country may dislike you, but you can be neutral towards them.
- Engage in Multiplayer: Battle against your friends or try co-operative multiplayer mode that allows several players to work together to control a single nation for up to 32 players. Featuring hotjoin, improved chat, new matchmaking server andsupport for a standalone server.
- Create your own history & customize your game: Europa Universalis IV gives you the chance to customize and mod practically anything your heart may desire.
The game also looks gorgeous, and I have no idea how it's going to run on my computer.
- Take your own decisions: Nation building is flexible: decide your own form of government, the structure of your society, trade politics and more. The possibilities are endless.
- Use your Monarch Power: Experience the new system of monarch power where your spread of choices is influence by the caliber of the man you have at the top. Do you have a warrior King? Then it is time to make war.
- Experience history coming to life: The great people and personalities of the past are on hand to support you. Thousands of historical events guide you, with unique different flavor depending on the country you play. Have more than a thousand historical leaders and over 4000 historical Monarchs at your disposal.
- The world is now your playground: Players can enjoy over 300 years of gameplay in a lush topographic map in full 3D. Lead any one of more than 250 countries that originally existed during the game’s extensive time span.
- Experience the all new trade system: The trade system adds a new dimension to the great trade empires of the period. Seize control of key ports to expand your trade, support it with your powerful fleet and the wealth of the world will flow to you.
- Bring out your diplomatic skills: Deeper diplomatic gameplay, with coalitions, threats, fleet basing rights and detailed support for rebels. Introducing unilateral opinions, a country may dislike you, but you can be neutral towards them.
- Engage in Multiplayer: Battle against your friends or try co-operative multiplayer mode that allows several players to work together to control a single nation for up to 32 players. Featuring hotjoin, improved chat, new matchmaking server andsupport for a standalone server.
- Create your own history & customize your game: Europa Universalis IV gives you the chance to customize and mod practically anything your heart may desire.
The game also looks gorgeous, and I have no idea how it's going to run on my computer.
Mr. Luchador
Member
Need. Want. Must have!
Have you tried CK2? The graphical engine seems to be almost the same, so that might give you a good idea of the performance.
I'm hoping it also brings in country-specific piracy. You could seize as much traffic coming back from colonies while giving your target a CB.
Is there any word on the timeline start date? I'm guessing 1453 to make the Byzantine expansion pack attractive (again), but I did see the statement that most games don't go past the first 150 years starting from 1399.
Is there any word on the timeline start date? I'm guessing 1453 to make the Byzantine expansion pack attractive (again), but I did see the statement that most games don't go past the first 150 years starting from 1399.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
No, but my computer specs (3 GHz, 4 GB RAM) exceed the minimum requirements. The reason why I wonder is that EU3 always seems to labor a little as the game wanes along, even on the highest speed, and this looks quite a bit more demanding graphically.
They only mention that there are "over 300 years of gameplay", which sounds suspiciously like the timeframe of the original EU3 release.
Prophane33
Member
I wonder if any of the features from the canceled Magna Mundi will be in EU IV. I was really looking forward to the stand-alone game (having never played the mod), and was really bummed when they canceled it. I really don't like the way that some of the Eastern countries or nations like the United States are portrayed in EU, the game engine works perfectly for Europe, but it does a piss-poor job of simulating running a post-revolutionary United States. The Sengoku era is also not present (only the Heian period (?) clans), I felt Divine Wind should have been named something more Chinese, as it did a much better job at simulating China then making any meaningful changes to the Japanese side of things.
Basileus777
Member
There are screenshots showing gameplay in 1445.
Paradox has said no on this. It's not surprise considering what a disaster MMtG was.
Mr. Luchador
Member
Excited and disappointed at the same time.
Prophane33
Member
Destructoid has some more info on EUIV. Good article talking about the past, present, and future of Paradox.
I hope they rework peace deals in wars with big alliances fighting eachother.
It always bothered me that I could call in a lot of allies in some war and win and basically screw over all of them in peace deals.
Maybe if it was somehow based on war contribution and have your relationship between your allies change depending on how good of a deal they get.
It always bothered me that I could call in a lot of allies in some war and win and basically screw over all of them in peace deals.
Maybe if it was somehow based on war contribution and have your relationship between your allies change depending on how good of a deal they get.
Just a quick question for you guys.
Regarding tech sliders, do you usually spread them out (ie put some effort into land, government, trade, production and naval at the same time) or focus on one (ie put all your effort into government until you reach the next level). Is one way more efficient than the other?
Regarding tech sliders, do you usually spread them out (ie put some effort into land, government, trade, production and naval at the same time) or focus on one (ie put all your effort into government until you reach the next level). Is one way more efficient than the other?
Focus on one until it finishes, and then I move on to the next. That way you get benefits earlier. Especially important for stuff like government tech 4.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
For western nations, I spread out unless there is a critical tech coming up soon (Gov tech 4, land tech 18 for gunpowder units). For Eastern and other nations, I focus on land and gov most of the time to remain competitive until I can westernize.
This can also depend on who/where you are. If an Italian state, gobble up all those universities around you, then enjoy getting all the government techs first while keeping that slider at zero.