Paul Verhoeven closer to making his long-awaited Jesus movie?

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LovingSteam said:
As do I. Folks who teach on the subject of who Jesus was. What the historical record tells us about the culture during the 1st century movement. Folks like David Scholer, Craig Evans, Richard Beaton.
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Sure. There are two sides as there are with everything, but there is usually a majority and a minority view. Most modern scholars agree on the basic idea that Jesus was an apocalyptic Jewish prophet who never claimed to be divine.

And these people also teach and actively research about the subject. Tabor, Ehrman, Butz, Eisenman, Crossan, Gibson, so on.
 
Here's to hoping this Jesus is brought back to life as a cyborg and is battling alien insectoids on another planet.

RoboJesus Trooper
 
Chinner said:
People seriously didn't notice the whole Robocop/Jesus thing?
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I can honestly say I haven't. But now that is has come to my attention, It makes sense. I need to watch this movie again.
 
RiZ III said:
Sure. There are two sides as there are with everything, but there is usually a majority and a minority view. Most modern scholars agree on the basic idea that Jesus was an apocalyptic Jewish prophet who never claimed to be divine.
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I disagree with the majority part. If you choose to vase your staement on the JS then ofcourse. If we want to discount the scholarship and viewpoint of those who are Christian simply due to their faith then you would be correct. I prefer to not do that.

I am not saying Jesus did proclaim divinity as nobody knows. What I'm saying is that there is no consensus on the issue. Both sides have their supporters and dissenters.
 
LovingSteam said:
I disagree with the majority part. If you choose to vase your staement on the JS then ofcourse. If we want to discount the scholarship and viewpoint of those who are Christian simply due to their faith then you would be correct. I prefer to not do that.

I am not saying Jesus did proclaim divinity as nobody knows. What I'm saying is that there is no consensus on the issue. Both sides have their supporters and dissenters.
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I took several college courses with a member of the Jesus Seminar and I found their methods of judging historicity severely lacking. For one, they fail to acknowledge any influence from the Hellenized world, which was so well integrated into first century Jewish life. The 4 gospels were written in Greek after all and espouse a very Pauline theology in general. They also take for granted that a Q source existed, and I'm not so sure that should be a closed case. Things seem to work just as well if Luke had a copy of Matthew.

I'm of the opinion that most of the so-called "experts" today (i.e. the people whose books you see on the shelves in Boarders) are practicing apologetics, and trying to "save Christianity" by taking the more outlandish miracle stories out and making Jesus into some New Age wandering sage of wisdom. Many of them are also Bishops or Pastors. I'm sorry, but while they may have a decent knowledge of the material, if this was a trial, they would not be chosen for the jury.

Edit: As for the movie itself, I look forward to it, although I doubt it will match the brilliance of The Last Temptation. Robocop is a masterpiece, however, so we shall see. If Verhoeven thinks of this as his final opus, I expect good things, and the fact that he disliked The Passion allows me even more faith in his vision.
 
Fourth Storm said:
I took several college courses with a member of the Jesus Seminar and I found their methods of judging historicity severely lacking. For one, they fail to acknowledge any influence from the Hellenized world, which was so well integrated into first century Jewish life. The 4 gospels were written in Greek after all and espouse a very Pauline theology in general. They also take for granted that a Q source existed, and I'm not so sure that should be a closed case. Things seem to work just as well if Luke had a copy of Matthew.

I'm of the opinion that most of the so-called "experts" today (i.e. the people whose books you see on the shelves in Boarders) are practicing apologetics, and trying to "save Christianity" by taking the more outlandish miracle stories out and making Jesus into some New Age wandering sage of wisdom. Many of them are also Bishops or Pastors. I'm sorry, but while they may have a decent knowledge of the material, if this was a trial, they would not be chosen for the jury.
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One reason I find the JS lacking is due to the fact they have an axe to grind from the get go. They outright deny any statement they deem a 1st century Jew wouldn't make. They claim to focus on the Jewishness of Jesus and yet have no problem looking at the Gospel of Peter as being just as reliable.

The Gospel of Peter states that the Jewish leadership spent the night in the cemetery with the Roman guards to make sure the body of Jesus wasn't stolen in order for his disciples to say he was raised. Talk about Jewish context, not only would an observant Jew never spend the night in a cemetery but to do so with Romans? No. The JS are guilty of the very thing they accuse Christians of doing, reading into the NT to help support their preconceived views.
 
Count Dookkake said:
That same fucktard also directed Turkish Delight, Soldier of Orange, The Fourth Man, Flesh + Blood, Robocop, Total Recall, Basic Instinct, Black Book and Starship Troopers.
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OK so some of his movies are awesome, what's your point?
 
LovingSteam said:
One reason I find the JS lacking is due to the fact they have an axe to grind from the get go. They outright deny any statement they deem a 1st century Jew wouldn't make. They claim to focus on the Jewishness of Jesus and yet have no problem looking at the Gospel of Peter as being just as reliable.

The Gospel of Peter states that the Jewish leadership spent the night in the cemetery with the Roman guards to make sure the body of Jesus wasn't stolen in order for his disciples to say he was raised. Talk about Jewish context, not only would an observant Jew never spend the night in a cemetery but to do so with Romans? No. The JS are guilty of the very thing they accuse Christians of doing, reading into the NT to help support their preconceived views.
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I agree with what you say about the Gospel of Peter. I admit to being somewhat ignorant of how they classified the "works" of Jesus as at the time I took the courses, only the "sayings" had been ruled on. I don't remember them treating the Gospel of Peter as a legit source, as I'm pretty sure the scholarly consensus is that it's a late document and utterly outrageous at that, what with it's talking crosses and all. Then again, they did assume the Gospel of Thomas was early and independent tradition, even though there is evidence it used the Diatessaron as a source.

Also, on their criterion of multiple attestation: just because you have two different forms of a saying doesn't mean they are from different traditions. You don't have to copy someone word for word to use them as a source. These are but a few of the issues I have with their conclusions. In defense of some of the members, one must remember that not everyone voted with the majority.
 
Neuromancer said:
OK so some of his movies are awesome, what's your point?
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That some internet turd named Winter has little ground to dismiss this talented artist and scholar as a mere fucktard on the basis of one movie that he probably didn't even understand.

Also, judging by your bolding, you haven't seen the other movies. You should check them out. Particularly Turkish Delight.
 
Fourth Storm said:
I agree with what you say about the Gospel of Peter. I admit to being somewhat ignorant of how they classified the "works" of Jesus as at the time I took the courses, only the "sayings" had been ruled on. I don't remember them treating the Gospel of Peter as a legit source, as I'm pretty sure the scholarly consensus is that it's a late document and utterly outrageous at that, what with it's talking crosses and all. Then again, they did assume the Gospel of Thomas was early and independent tradition, even though there is evidence it used the Diatessaron as a source.

Also, on their criterion of multiple attestation: just because you have two different forms of a saying doesn't mean they are from different traditions. You don't have to copy someone word for word to use them as a source. These are but a few of the issues I have with their conclusions. In defense of some of the members, one must remember that not everyone voted with the majority.
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I don't believe they see the Gos.Pet as reliable as much as they hold it up on par with the other gospels in regards to the faith aspects. Of course the difference is the Gos.Peter is so outside of the Jewish contextual document that it shouldn't even be placed in the same room as the likes of Matthew, Mark and Luke. I also find it interesting that they do use the Gos.Thomas even though it contains the statement attributed to Jesus that Mary would need to become a man. Such a statement is so far outside of Jewish that its ridiculous.
 
Count Dookkake said:
FINALLY. I have been waiting for this for almost 15 years.

Did not know about the book. Will read.
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Waiting for what? Unless I misunderstood, the link says he still isn't making the movie.
 
I want Lars von Trier to make a Jesus movie for America. I can't even imagine how epic that would be.
 
tokkun said:
Waiting for what? Unless I misunderstood, the link says he still isn't making the movie.
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The book is good enough for now.

Maybe it will generate some interest.

Spire said:
I want Lars von Trier to make a Jesus movie for America. I can't even imagine how epic that would be.
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Breaking the Waves was a pretty awesome god movie.
 
Count Dookkake said:
That some internet turd named Winter has little ground to dismiss this talented artist and scholar as a mere fucktard on the basis of one movie that he probably didn't even understand.

Also, judging by your bolding, you haven't seen the other movies. You should check them out. Particularly Turkish Delight.
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Two movies, actually... Show girls and hollow man, two of the worst movies ever committed to film. Actually to call them movies would be generous. I think "shit piles" is appropriate.

You act like Verhoeven is some sort of genius. He's made a few entertaining films but the only reason they are notable is due to over the top violence and sex.
 
BTW, I highly recommend this box set (which I have) of his earlier films:

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Edit: Damn, is it out of print or something? Expensive now.
 
winter said:
You act like Verhoeven is some sort of genius. He's made a few entertaining films but the only reason they are notable is due to over the top violence and sex.
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Verhoeven is the only filmmaker who's commentaries actually make the film better. Watch the commentary for something like Usual Suspects, and you get "that's my brother's hand" or "it's dark outside because we put cardboard over the windows due to not having a budget". Watch the commentary to Starship Troopers and you'll get an epic debate on the nature of fascism during wartime, or on Jungian synchronicity in The Fourth Man, or how Hollow Man is a philosophical retelling of Plato's Ring of Gyges. This is a guy who isn't just making a movie. He's saying something or exploring some idea through it.

Verhoeven is a very smart man. I'd even go so far as to say genius.
 
Verhoeven was at the NYC IFC Center for film last week for a lecture and Q&A following a screening of The Life of Brian pertaining to his new book. He said that if he were to actually make a Jesus movie, it would be more about Jesus staying incognito, hiding in the shadows and keeping out of the limelight as he went from city to city to build a following. I actually recorded most of the q&a on my voice recorder. The dude's SUPER knowledgeable on his Jesus.

He also only had loose tentative ideas about what his film would entail and has nothing beyond ideas. He's no closer than he was 10 years ago.
 
JzeroT1437 said:
Verhoeven was at the NYC IFC Center for film last week for a lecture and Q&A following a screening of The Life of Brian pertaining to his new book. He said that if he were to actually make a Jesus movie, it would be more about Jesus staying incognito, hiding in the shadows and keeping out of the limelight as he went from city to city to build a following. I actually recorded most of the q&a on my voice recorder. The dude's SUPER knowledgeable on his Jesus.

He also only had loose tentative ideas about what his film would entail and has nothing beyond ideas. He's no closer than he was 10 years ago.
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Full video of Q&A:

http://chud.com/articles/articles/23306/1/EXCLUSIVE-VIDEO-PAUL-VERHOEVEN-DISCUSSES-THE-LIFE-OF-BRIAN-JESUS/Page1.html
 
Sqorgar said:
Verhoeven is the only filmmaker who's commentaries actually make the film better. Watch the commentary for something like Usual Suspects, and you get "that's my brother's hand" or "it's dark outside because we put cardboard over the windows due to not having a budget". Watch the commentary to Starship Troopers and you'll get an epic debate on the nature of fascism during wartime, or on Jungian synchronicity in The Fourth Man, or how Hollow Man is a philosophical retelling of Plato's Ring of Gyges. This is a guy who isn't just making a movie. He's saying something or exploring some idea through it.

Verhoeven is a very smart man. I'd even go so far as to say genius.
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That's wonderful but these aren't his ideas; they belong to the authors of the source material. Read the novel Starship Troopers or The Invisible Man by HG Wells who was retelling the Ring of Gyges. I'm glad he seems to have some idea of the intentions of the source material but any half-competent director should.
 
winter said:
That's wonderful but these aren't his ideas; they belong to the authors of the source material. Read the novel Starship Troopers or The Invisible Man by HG Wells who was retelling the Ring of Gyges. I'm glad he seems to have some idea of the intentions of the source material but any half-competent director should.
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His ideas are separate from the source material, frequently differing from it or being more nuanced. His opinions on fascism, for example, comes from his childhood experiences in Nazi-occupied Netherlands. While he acknowledges the fascism inherent in Starship Troppers, Heinlein was unequivocally FOR it, while Verhoeven thinks it is silly and attempts to undermine it and expose it through the film, while also sort of embracing it. In the Starship Troopers commentary, Vehoeven and Neumeier argue at length over the United States' use of fascism in recent conflicts - this predates 9/11, but sort of predicts how it played out.
 
Sqorgar said:
His ideas are separate from the source material, frequently differing from it or being more nuanced. His opinions on fascism, for example, comes from his childhood experiences in Nazi-occupied Netherlands. While he acknowledges the fascism inherent in Starship Troppers, Heinlein was unequivocally FOR it, while Verhoeven thinks it is silly and attempts to undermine it and expose it through the film, while also sort of embracing it. In the Starship Troopers commentary, Vehoeven and Neumeier argue at length over the United States' use of fascism in recent conflicts - this predates 9/11, but sort of predicts how it played out.
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I've really got to figure out Robert Heinlein... When I read Stranger in a Strange Land, I thought it was a left-wing fantasy, but I was very, very young at the time... Was his portrayal of the man from mars' free love commune actually an indictment of utopian society? Or was it actually a right wing fantasy in disguise?
 
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