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[WrathOfOtaibah]

1. This.

2. It´s a sexual attraction/orientation, but *we* call it a disorder to clearly brand it as something inherent negative. What your friend said is pretty much what should happen: Don´t hate pedophiles as long as they´re not acting on their urges. the end.

First of all its not a sexual orientation, when you hear sex you either think of intercourse or the gender. Not the age of that persons gender.

And anyone who harbors such feelings must go get treated, see why this disorder developed and how to properly help himself or herself.

 

[Sneds]

I saw it. I'm saying the analogy, putting it along side homosexuality is unnecessary. Why is it these comparisons are never pedo vs heterosexuality?

Because heterosexuality is still perceived as normative in our society, unlike homosexuality and paedophilia. Also, you could argue that the revulsion that people did (and in some cases still do) feel towards homosexuality is similar to disgust people now feel about paedophilia.

If I was gay, I would still find the comparison offensive.

So. Combat, not acceptance. See, acceptance isn't always correct, particularly in wrong situations.

I wasn't actually offering an opinion on whether or not paedophilia should be accepted. I was just pointing out that it seemed as though some people's points had already been dealt with in the OP.

 

[MrHicks]

Pedophilia is a disorder because it's fundamentally harmful when acted upon. Homosexuality is considered immoral in some religions but there is nothing harmful merely about gay sex or gay relationships.

listen i love gay people
i totally believe people are born gay and will always be gay
(unlike some people)
its just as moral as being straight

but you can probably qualify homosexuality as a "disorder/defect" too (this sounds way worse then i intend it to be)

animals/humans every living thing is normally supposed to be hardwired to be attracted to the opposite gender

"something went wrong" (again sounds bad lol) and therefore a small % of animals and humans are attracted to the same gender

 

[Stridone]

The difference between pedophiles and homosexuals is that homosexuals fall in love with eachother. Pedophiles are just sexually attracted, it's more like bestiality than homosexuality.

 

[cackhyena]

I see it as a sexual orientation. Aside from being illegal I see it as in the same sort of category as those 80 year old that want the 18 year old wife except they don't acknowledge legal boundaries.

Yeah, that's not the same thing. Both are sexually mature.

 

[narcosis219]

Hold on, this doesn't make sense. Who aren't sexually developed?

Honestly, for what reason does this have to be the guideline? What at the back of your mind as an instinct says that you should only be attracted to sexually developed things?

The whole point of sex is to reproduce. The reason breasts are so attractive is because they signify that the woman will be able to nurture any children that they have. We're wired to be attracted to fertile women so that we can keep the race alive.

If we could reproduce ourselves like bacteria, there wouldn't be two sexes. We would be a single gender and give fuck all about other bacteria (sexually) of the same kind because we wouldn't need each other to reproduce. We would still give a shit about other bacteria because survival is another thing, which makes us inherently willing to form communities, so that each individual can contribute a different task in the survival of the whole.

Point of doing a 3 year old? Clearly not to reproduce.

 

[MThanded]

People are bound to get offended in this discussion. Even when valid points are made.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

It's a sexual orientation, but it's harmful if it is acted upon. Gaborn has it right, it's a disorder.

I'm a little iffy about the definition of 'disorder'. I was picturing some sort of deficiency in the brain.

 

[confused]

This is news to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy

 

[Hari Seldon]

The difference between a disorder and sexual orientation is based on your morality.

 

[Gaborn]

I don't think this is a case of being harmful or not. I think it's a case of can it be treated or not. Can pedophilia be treated?.....Well can homosexuality be "treated"?

Pedophiles OVERWHELMINGLY suffered some sort of physical, sexual, or mental abuse or trauma in childhood. Pedophiles can be treated whether they're cured or not. With gays there is nothing to cure.

Sneds - Sure, that's the perception but it's not based on modern scientific understanding.

Mr. Hicks - That is not consistent with any major modern psychological, psychiatric, or medical institution.

 

[Dan Yo]

I'm not sure how to classify it, but I do consider homosexuality, bestiality, incest, pedophilia, etc. to be related sexual preferences. They all go against what is very apparent to be physiologically correct (although an argument could be made for incest).

However, some sexual preferences out there are obviously more harmful than others, which is why I don't see much issue with incest, homosexuality, and even bestiality in certain cases. Child rape, however, is always going to be wrong and should never be allowed. You're not going to be seeing the annual pedophile parade any time soon, but I do think more efforts should be made to understand these people and how they can deal with attractions they simply cannot be allowed to act on.

 

[Hylian7]

Pedophilia is a disorder because it's fundamentally harmful when acted upon. Homosexuality is considered immoral in some religions but there is nothing harmful merely about gay sex or gay relationships.

First post could not have nailed it better.

Just think about like eating disorders being considered disorders and not "responsibility". They are harmful to your body, therefore disorder.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

I think it's a fetish. In fetishes people can be sexualy attracted to all kinds of stuff from big breasts to cars or whatever. So i don't think it's a disorder per se. It becomes a disorder when the person can't control it's urge to act upon it. Similar to a person who starts to rape because their hormones are out of control.

 

[that1dude24]

I'm a little iffy about the definition of 'disorder'. I was picturing some sort of deficiency in the brain.

There really isn't one real definition for it in psychology. I kinda like how the DSM puts it.

Moreover, although this manual provides a classification of mental disorders, it must be admitted that no definition adequately specifies precise boundaries for the concept of "mental disorder." (emphasis mine) The concept of mental disorder, like many other concepts in medicine and science, lacks a consistent operational definition that covers all situations. All medical conditions are defined on various levels of abstraction - for example, structural pathology (e.g., ulcerative colitis), symptom presentation (e.g., migraine), deviance from a physiological norm (e.g., hypertension), and etiology (e.g., pneumococcal pneumonia). Mental disorders have also been defined by a variety of concepts (e.g., distress, dyscontrol, disadvantage, disability, inflexibility, irrationality, syndromal pattern, etiology, and statistical deviation). Each is a useful indicator for a mental disorder, but none is equivalent to the concept, and different situations call for different definitions.

Edit: I'd say that a majority of the time, it falls under a deviation from the norm, or what puts a person or other around said person at a disadvantage.

 

[akira28]

Here's the evolutionary explanation for pedophilia, humans used to eat their children. Humans used to fuck their children. Humans used to eat and fuck their children. Humans used to eat their own dead, and their own excrement, and they used to sleep in trees and in holes in the ground. Humans over millions of years developed all sorts of different behaviors, some took place during mating behaviors some were strange but somehow efficient survival behaviors. None of that answers to wether eating your own fucking kids works, nor does it address whether pedophilia "works". Was there some basic reasoning behind the behavior? Probably, does it matter today? No. There's no reason not to accept pedophilia as anything other than a sickness, except for perhaps confusion over the issue. I am not confused in any way.

 

[confused]

Pedophiles OVERWHELMINGLY suffered some sort of physical, sexual, or mental abuse or trauma in childhood. Pedophiles can be treated whether they're cured or not. With gays there is nothing to cure.
Sneds - Sure, that's the perception but it's not based on modern scientific understanding.

Mr. Hicks - That is not consistent with any major modern psychological, psychiatric, or medical institution.

And there are also plenty that had a perfectly normal childhood.

 

[Opiate]

I do want to say that I have significant sympathy for pedophiles. At least, some of them.

That may sound terrible, but I believe there are some people who are simply pre-disposed to find young children sexually appealing, just as there are people who find lots of other non traditional things sexually appealing. The difference is that Paedophiles cannot act on their preferences because their preferences are immoral.

Again acknowledging that this isn't true of all paedophiles, I imagine myself walking around my entire life, fighting the chemicals in my body and patterns in my brain that want me to do something I know is wrong. I imagine constantly struggling with and hating myself. It sounds terrible, and torturous. Many of them cannot help wanting what they want, even if they know it's wrong.

 

[Pandaman]

I dont see why an orientation could not be classified as a disorder, so both i guess.

In any event, i think pedophilia should be accepted while still condemning the rape of a child. it may be difficult for them to go through life without being abe to pursue their attractions, but thats the cards they were dealt. They have my sympathy, but should they lapse they should still be removed from society until they are no longer deemed a risk.

 

[Misterinenja]

The difference between pedophiles and homosexuals is that homosexuals fall in love with eachother. Pedophiles are just sexually attracted, it's more like bestiality than homosexuality.

How do you know that? Just interested.

 

[Gaborn]

And there are also plenty that had a perfectly normal childhood.

That we know of. What is defined as trauma? What seemingly normal event affects a child later in life one way and a different child faced with the same event completely differently? I would not be as blase as you are with that.

 

[Uchip]

really, anything that detracts from a healthy propogation could be considered a disorder
whether or not its a dangerous disorder is the question, and in the case of pedophilia, it most certainly is a dangerous thought pattern.

 

[Sennorin]

The difference between pedophiles and homosexuals is that homosexuals fall in love with eachother. Pedophiles are just sexually attracted, it's more like bestiality than homosexuality.

See, I´m not saying "make acting on your pedophile urges legal". Abso-fucking-lutely not. But how can you make such a bold claim? It most likely would be an ill-balanced "relationship", but I´m pretty sure a pedophile and a kid can fall in love with each other as well. There´s a whole lot arguments to be made why this isn´t the same, yes, but ultimately, such relationships are only labeled "harmful", because society completely dismisses non-adults as a real persona.

On another note, calling for treatment is pretty insulting and even moreso baffeling when it comes from someone who´s homosexual. There *are* fundamental differences, but at the very least in the public image of its specific time, both homosexuality and pedophilia did provoke the same reactions in the face of society. Now that homosexuality is almost-accepted in most civilized countries, it´s very saddening to see the same people that are now finally free to express their mind hating the next-in-line minority. Just get over yourself and think about it for a moment.

 

[akira28]

And there are also plenty that had a perfectly normal childhood.

This I doubt highly, especially since if you take into account the numbers for child abuse and child trauma, experiencing either is relatively widespread. Normal kids don't develop into kid touchers. Some trauma or developmental issue occured, or some other stimuli or effects are at play. Your statement sounds assumptive.

orders = work
disorders = do not work, harmful to system, abnormal behavior

 

[Emerson]

Pedophiles OVERWHELMINGLY suffered some sort of physical, sexual, or mental abuse or trauma in childhood. Pedophiles can be treated whether they're cured or not. With gays there is nothing to cure.

I don't think the cause matters so much in this debate. Pedophiles can be treated but you admit they probably cannot be cured. Gays could also be treated, and will not be cured either. I understand people's justified hesitation to compare the two, but still.

Regardless of the "cause" of pedophilia, it's a tragic situation which leaves a person who I believe has a genuine sexual orientation towards children, which can't be changed any more than a gay person's can. Without actually victimizing anyone I don't see why they should be ostracized.

 

[Devolution]

The whole point of sex is to reproduce. The reason breasts are so attractive is because they signify that the woman will be able to nurture any children that they have. We're wired to be attracted to fertile women so that we can keep the race alive.

If we could reproduce ourselves like bacteria, there wouldn't be two sexes. We would be a single gender and give fuck all about other bacteria (sexually) of the same kind because we wouldn't need each other to reproduce. We would still give a shit about other bacteria because survival is another thing, which makes us inherently willing to form communities, so that each individual can contribute a different task in the survival of the whole.

Point of doing a 3 year old? Clearly not to reproduce.

Nope.

Gratification. Bonding.

The problem with your last sentence is it can be applied to homosexuals and couples who don't want children. Any act of sex that isn't for the purpose of procreation in your argument is bad.

 

[Opiate]

That we know of. What is defined as trauma? What seemingly normal event affects a child later in life one way and a different child faced with the same event completely differently? I would not be as blase as you are with that.

Do you believe that no one is born with a genetic predisposition for sexual attraction towards very young people? I think that's unlikely.

 

[Lucario]

ALL pedos should be castrated.

I know people with castration and penectomy fetishes. It's actually a relatively common fetish; not as common as feet, but still happens quite a bit.


.... I just think I'll let you think about that for a few minutes.

More on topic: Pedos are a massive issue in America, and, fuck, worldwide, even where this bullshit is legal.. Perhaps a bit of an overblown political issue (pedo hunts are vote getters. Nobody likes pedophiles) but when I was working at the boys and girls club while in high school, it sickened me to see the huge posterboard with every pedophile convicted of a rape in the entrance. All of them were released, all of them were... allowed to walk the streets near children. This is not something that should happen.

I unfortunately don't think it matters if pedophilia is a condition you're born with or if it's a choice or orientation or whatever. UNLIKE homosexuality, it's something that, in practice, actively harms people for life.

In closing: We don't know right now, and we don't need to know, because it doesn't matter. (Although I'd personally lean towards sexual preference, it's still unfortunately the pedo's responsibility to not act on it. Ever.) Pedos who live out their fantasies are harming people. Bottom line.

(So are people who live out their castration fetishes!)

 

[Sai-kun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy

And the APA recommends that ethical people don't practice conversion therapy, because it doesn't work.

 

[Toppot]

I believe it's a sexual orientation, or a fetish or something, I dunno how I'd categorize it.

I see it like people have a foot fetish, which some people find utterly repulsive and gag at the mere mention of it. I don't judge people for what they get off to, I would judge them for how they get it though. The problem is that pedophiles get a bad name because they have to resort to horrible extremes to get their kicks. Just like drug addicts have to do horrible things to get drugs, if they we're available legally then there wouldn't be anywhere near as much of a demand for drug mules etc. And I believe if material for pedophiles was available legally then they wouldn't need to do disgusting things or have other people do horrible things to get the material and kicks.

Of course they would still want to do things to children and some would want to harm children in some way or help promote an industry that harms children. But at least if they could get material legally then there wouldn't be as many bad things happening. I also think that current rules about know who these people are, where they are and stopping them working with/near children should be kept to protect the children. Pedophiles are unfortunate that their particular fetish/sexual attraction is harmful to one party and that party can't consent. People with a Macrophilia fetish can't live out their fantasy's either but there is material created for them to enjoy.

 

[Gaborn]

I don't think the cause matters so much in this debate. Pedophiles can be treated but you admit they probably cannot be cured. Gays could also be treated, and will not be cured either. I understand people's justified hesitation to compare the two, but still.

Regardless of the "cause" of pedophilia, it's a tragic situation which leaves a person who I believe has a genuine sexual orientation towards children, which can't be changed any more than a gay person's can. Without actually victimizing anyone I don't see why they should be ostracized.

Small pox was cured relatively recently. And Polio. And countless other diseases. The fact we can't cure all pedophiles right now does not mean there is no cure that can be developed.

 

[dinazimmerman]

There probably IS a biological or psychological explanation for pedophilia. I seriously doubt you'd find a BENEFICIAL explanation like you can with homosexuality though which is what I was responding to.

I'm sure you know, however, that not all adaptations are beneficial. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maladaptation

 

[that1dude24]

On another note, calling for treatment is pretty insulting and even moreso baffeling when it comes from someone who´s homosexual. There *are* fundamental differences, but at the very least in the public image of its specific time, both homosexuality and pedophilia did provoke the same reactions in the face of society. Now that homosexuality is almost-accepted in most civilized countries, it´s very saddening to see the same people that are now finally free to express their mind hating the next-in-line minority. Just get over yourself and think about it for a moment.

No, it's not. It's fundamentally harmful when acted upon, unlike homosexuality, and quite frankly I'd wager that it'd improve the lives of those afflicted with the disorder assuming there ever is an effective treatment.

 

[Jenga]

so how do you treat pedophilia? strap them in a chair and force them to sexually like grown ups?

didn't work for gays and the church

i propose a plan where pedophiles are to be isolated and studied so that it can be determined what nutrients they have that might be extracted for our personal use

 

[confused]

This I doubt highly, especially since if you take into account the numbers for child abuse and child trauma, experiencing either is relatively widespread. Normal kids don't develop into kid touchers. Some trauma or developmental issue occured, or some other stimuli or effects are at play. Your statement sounds assumptive.

orders = work
disorders = do not work, harmful to system, abnormal behavior

So does the statement that most Peadophiles were victim of abuse themselves. People do crazy shit for a variety of reasons, most times just because they can.

And the APA recommends that ethical people don't practice conversion therapy, because it doesn't work.

Yet plenty of gay people were unjustly forced to.....

 

[Uchip]

On another note, calling for treatment is pretty insulting and even moreso baffeling when it comes from someone who´s homosexual.

there is a gay gene
there is no pedo gene
pedophilia is linked to deep seeded issues, homosexuality is not

 

[Darklord]

Pedophilia is more complicated than A or B. Saying they should all die or all be castrated is like saying all men should be castrated because of all the rape and abuse recorded.

There are pedo's out there who don't act on it, don't like it and don't want to be that way but they are. They find children attractive and cute but would never harm them because they know it's wrong. Does that make them a monster? No. Then there are pedo's who enjoy abusing children, hurting them and warping them into a sexual toy. Does that make them a monster? yES. They are more than pedophiles, they're evil and feed on innocents. What's the most innocent thing? A child. Some are abused as a kid and grow up with it, some just become it.

I think if people didn't instantly demonize a pedophile they could learn a lot more about it and understand how and why, and best ways to help control it.

 

[starchild excalibur]

I've never been sure where I come down on the disorder vs. sexual orientation argument. For me, it depends on whether pedophiles are pedophiles regardless of their upbringing or whether it's dependent on certain interactions growing up.

If it's the former, then I tend to think it's an orientation. If it's the latter, then I tend to think it's a disorder.

 

[Jenga]

there is a gay gene
there is no pedo gene
pedophilia is linked to deep seeded issues, homosexuality is not

but what if there was pedophile jeans? they'd be much easier to mark out and isolate

 

[MThanded]

there is a gay gene
there is no pedo gene
pedophilia is linked to deep seeded issues, homosexuality is not

What?

 

[BocoDragon]

I think neither is correct. It's only a disorder in the sense that society cannot tolerate it and so they might label it a disorder in order to imply that one cannot function properly within society if one practices paedophelia.

But "orientation" implies a connotation related to homosexuality, that one is "born that way" with a paedohelia "status". I wouldn't assume that. It could be a fetish that develops over one's lifetime, or more worrisome, it could be an extention of normal biological mandates taken too far.

Really, in the context of biology, there's not a whole lot out of the ordinary. Males seek young, fertile females in order to reproduce.. Some just go overboard. They might be so young that it doesn't make reproductive sense anymore, but sexuality is often not entirely in service to reproduction. On that note, some pedophiles choose same sex victims..

Obviously, society cannot tolerate this.. Words like "disorder" and "orientation" basically represent how much society wants to condemn or condone such behavior. It's not really an evaluation of whether they're "normal" from a biological standpoint.

 

[Count Dookkake]

there is a gay gene
there is no pedo gene
pedophilia is linked to deep seeded issues, homosexuality is not

Gross.

Spoiler

deep-seated

 

[Opiate]

there is a gay gene
there is no pedo gene
pedophilia is linked to deep seeded issues, homosexuality is not

First, you probably mean "deep seated." I will assume this is not a Freudian slip and is instead an honest misunderstanding of the idiom. Second, can you provide evidence? I'm honestly curious.

I don't mean evidence like "it's obvious" or "look at all these pedos who have issues." I mean evidence like clinical studies done confirm what you've just asserted. Again, honest request.

 

[narcosis219]

How about....

Anime-girl-philia.

Disorder or sexual orientation?

Imagine a pedophile who has only seen children behind a glass wall, and can never touch or interact with them. Same thing here but with anime girls.

I say pedophilia is a fetish, except that acting and fulfilling the fetish is immoral, unlike sucking on feet, huge breasts, sado/masochism, car seat fetish, crush fetish, which are all relatively (with consent from all parties) safe.

 

[Devolution]

On another note, calling for treatment is pretty insulting and even moreso baffeling when it comes from someone who´s homosexual. There *are* fundamental differences, but at the very least in the public image of its specific time, both homosexuality and pedophilia did provoke the same reactions in the face of society. Now that homosexuality is almost-accepted in most civilized countries, it´s very saddening to see the same people that are now finally free to express their mind hating the next-in-line minority. Just get over yourself and think about it for a moment.

Homosexuality is becoming accepted because we're seeing how stupid it is to tell two consenting adults what they do sexually is wrong. It's none of our business. (And please someone don't straw man me with incest, not in the mood to talk about that right now.)

Children can't ever consent, we've reached that consensus in most societies. If I was a homosexual, hell I'm not and still am, screw it, your comparisons to pedophilia are disgusting.

 

[Gaborn]

I'm sure you know, however, that not all adaptations are beneficial. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maladaptation

Didn't say they were. I was responding to

Neither makes sense from a natural point of view - no kids will be made.

My statement was merely that evolutionary biologists think there IS a beneficial purpose to homosexuality. I did not comment on pedophilia.

 

[Sennorin]

Small pox was cured relatively recently. And Polio. And countless other diseases. The fact we can't cure all pedophiles right now does not mean there is no cure that can be developed.

WOW are you ignorant. This coming from you. Please *think* for one fucking second before you make horrible statements like the above. It´s so insulting and also not helping your own agenda in any way...

 

[mu cephei]

One possible evolutionary explanation for paedophilia is that it's a survival advantage to find youth attractive - more likely to be free of disease, have a long reproductive life ahead of them, etc. So it's where a positive trait is taken to an extreme, like violence issues - in some circumstances violence would have been advantageous, but too much is bad.

I don't think it's a sexual orientation - a paedophile's attraction is dependent on age, not sex.

 

[akira28]

In closing: We don't know right now, and we don't need to know, because it doesn't matter. (Although I'd personally lean towards sexual preference, it's still unfortunately the pedo's responsibility to not act on it. Ever.) Pedos who live out their fantasies are harming people.

For real I want to round them up and study them. I have theories. The history of humanity has examples. This is a crackable pathology I think. Sexual orientation and sexual development. I don't think it's like being gay at all.

 

[Jenga]

How about....

Anime-girl-philia.

Disorder or sexual orientation?

Imagine a pedophile who has only seen children behind a glass wall, and can never touch or interact with them. Same thing here but with anime girls.

I say pedophilia is a fetish, except that acting and fulfilling the fetish is immoral, unlike sucking on feet, huge breasts, sado/masochism, car seat fetish, crush fetish, which are all relatively (with consent from all parties) safe.

3d is pig disgusting