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[Emerson]

Small pox was cured relatively recently. And Polio. And countless other diseases. The fact we can't cure all pedophiles right now does not mean there is no cure that can be developed.

I don't think this is a valid point. I like you as a poster but I think your bias in this situation shows pretty clearly. Speculating about some future cure for pedophilia is no different than arguing that homosexuality might still be cured one day.

I do want to say that I have significant sympathy for pedophiles. At least, some of them.

That may sound terrible, but I believe there are some people who are simply pre-disposed to find young children sexually appealing, just as there are people who find lots of other non traditional things sexually appealing. The difference is that Paedophiles cannot act on their preferences because their preferences are immoral.

Again acknowledging that this isn't true of all paedophiles, I imagine myself walking around my entire life, fighting the chemicals in my body and patterns in my brain that want me to do something I know is wrong. I imagine constantly struggling with and hating myself. It sounds terrible, and torturous. Many of them cannot help wanting what they want, even if they know it's wrong.

I agree with this completely, and it was the point I was trying to make. The idea of a lawful pedophile is a profoundly sad one to me.

As Opiate also said, it doesn't make sense to say that all pedophiles are the way they are because of trauma. As with pretty much everything else in psychology, the most reasonable answer is that it results from some combination along the spectrum of nature as well as nurture.

And still, I don't think the cause of the disorder has anything to do with how it should be treated. Even if 100% of pedophiles were abused, I still believe they have an orientation equally deep-seated in them as homosexuality in a gay person.

 

[that1dude24]

WOW are you ignorant. This coming from you. Please *think* for one fucking second before you make horrible statements like the above. It´s so insulting and also not helping your own agenda in any way...

Not really? It's entirely possible that there will be a treatment for pedophilia in the future - if you know otherwise please provide me with a source.

I don't think this is a valid point. I like you as a poster but I think your bias in this situation shows pretty clearly. Speculating about some future cure for pedophilia is no different than arguing that homosexuality might still be cured one day.

It is entirely possible that there will be a "treatment" for homosexuality in the future, there's just no damn reason for it.

 

[Übermatik]

 

[weekend_warrior]

Disorder. And your friend should be castrated, just in case.

 

[Jenga]

Speculating about some future cure for pedophilia is no different than arguing that homosexuality might still be cured one day.




.

gene therapy

 

[Mumei]

It isn't a sexual orientation. Sexual orientations are heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality, and asexuality.

Pedophilia falls under a category called paraphilia that includes various sexual interests that are more specific than gender (like sadomasochism, voyeurism, people of a certain age (whether child, teenager, very old, etc.), amputees, imagining oneself as the opposite sex, exposing oneself, etc.).

The basic difference is that sexual orientation refers to the sex / gender (they're different, I know) that a person is attracted to - whether one, both, or neither, whereas paraphilias deal with sexual interests in specific behaviors both legal and illegal, in specific age groups, and so forth.

 

[Speevy]

I can see a reasonable discussion developing here as long as no one puts forth the argument that adult should be able to carry on relationships with children. Then we have a problem.

 

[akira28]

So does the statement that most Peadophiles were victim of abuse themselves. People do crazy shit for a variety of reasons, most times just because they can.



Yet plenty of gay people were unjustly forced to.....

They've done studies on people with criminal records for certain crimes and cross checked with mental health studies to find a correlation of abuse or traumatic events during certain developmental ages for people who have sexual issues. They did find data to support that child sex abuse is a potentially repeating cycle.

 

[SUPREME1]

there is a gay gene
there is no pedo gene
pedophilia is linked to deep seeded issues, homosexuality is not

I seriously doubt that.

 

[narcosis219]

Nope.

Gratification. Bonding.

The problem with your last sentence is it can be applied to homosexuals and couples who don't want children. Any act of sex that isn't for the purpose of procreation in your argument is bad.

In nature? I think there is only one other species known so far that has sex as a recreational activity/for pleasure/bonding.

 

[Uchip]

First, you probably mean "deep seated." I will assume this is not a Freudian slip and is instead an honest misunderstanding of the idiom. Second, can you provide evidence? I'm honestly curious.

I don't mean evidence like "it's obvious" or "look at all these pedos who have issues." I mean evidence like clinical studies done confirm what you've just asserted. Again, honest request.

the gay gene has been proven, but theres no study on any genetic link to pedophilia
so all we have to go on right now is the fact that pedophiles almost always appear to be sick in the head, at least the ones you hear about.

if there are a whole lot of healthy, level headed pedophiles out there, then I certainly havent heard of any

 

[Emerson]

It is entirely possible that there will be a "treatment" for homosexuality in the future, there's just no damn reason for it.

Yes, of course. I didn't mean that the idea is absurd, just that as an argument it is meaningless. If pedophilia could be treated by gene therapy so could homosexuality. Like you said, so what?

 

[Darklord]

Disorder. And your friend should be castrated, just in case.

Same goes for you. In case you ever rape a woman. There is much more adult women who are abused than kids. You know, just in case.

 

[levious]

In nature? I think there is only one other species known so far that has sex as a recreational activity/for pleasure/bonding.

can't be only one, dolphins and bonobos just off the top of my head...

 

[Dan Yo]

there is a gay gene
there is no pedo gene
pedophilia is linked to deep seeded issues, homosexuality is not

Amazing scientific breakthrough you've made there, doctor! When will this discovery be announced to the public?

 

[Davidion]

Pedophilia is a disorder because it's fundamentally harmful when acted upon. Homosexuality is considered immoral in some religions but there is nothing harmful merely about gay sex or gay relationships.

I do want to say that I have significant sympathy for pedophiles. At least, some of them.

That may sound terrible, but I believe there are some people who are simply pre-disposed to find young children sexually appealing, just as there are people who find lots of other non traditional things sexually appealing. The difference is that Paedophiles cannot act on their preferences because their preferences are immoral.

Again acknowledging that this isn't true of all paedophiles, I imagine myself walking around my entire life, fighting the chemicals in my body and patterns in my brain that want me to do something I know is wrong. I imagine constantly struggling with and hating myself. It sounds terrible, and torturous. Many of them cannot help wanting what they want, even if they know it's wrong.

Opiate and Gaborn's posts describes my viewpoint. I do think that the phenomenon is potentially genetic, and those who struggle with it personally while understanding that acting it out is completely wrong is indeed rather sad. However, it's something that cannot be allowed to manifest socially simply because the act is inherently damaging and predatory.

 

[Gaborn]

First, you probably mean "deep seated." I will assume this is not a Freudian slip and is instead an honest misunderstanding of the idiom. Second, can you provide evidence? I'm honestly curious.

I don't mean evidence like "it's obvious" or "look at all these pedos who have issues." I mean evidence like clinical studies done confirm what you've just asserted. Again, honest request.

Opiate to be clear are you asking for proof that there is no pedo gene or IS a "gay gene" (there isn't a single gay gene but twin studies indicate a strong genetic component to homosexuality along with hormone exposure in the womb)

 

[Stealth Editor]

this is the fastest growing thread ever

 

[confused]

They've done studies on people with criminal records for certain crimes and cross checked with mental health studies to find a correlation of abuse or traumatic events during certain developmental ages for people who have sexual issues. They did find data to support that child sex abuse is a potentially repeating cycle.

What about the people without criminal records ? Amd how many of those used abuse as an excuse. People can be scum if they think they can get off lighter by using something like that.

 

[MWS Natural]

On another note, calling for treatment is pretty insulting and even moreso baffeling when it comes from someone who´s homosexual. There *are* fundamental differences, but at the very least in the public image of its specific time, both homosexuality and pedophilia did provoke the same reactions in the face of society. Now that homosexuality is almost-accepted in most civilized countries, it´s very saddening to see the same people that are now finally free to express their mind hating the next-in-line minority. Just get over yourself and think about it for a moment.

Awesome. Now pedophilia will be brought up in every homosexual thread!

 

[Deified Data]

Sexual orientation, obviously. It only becomes a "disorder" when it goes agaist societal norms. Homosexuality was considered a "disorder" for a while. It may make some people uncomfortable, but it's the truth.

 

[Speevy]

this is the fastest growing thread ever

You should see E3 topics, or the one where they were just giving away Xbox 360s to everyone.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

There really isn't one real definition for it in psychology. I kinda like how the DSM puts it.



Edit: I'd say that a majority of the time, it falls under a deviation from the norm, or what puts a person or other around said person at a disadvantage.

So 'disorder' is not well-defined. That kind of makes things difficult.

I think the heart of the question is: Is pedophelia just 'discovered' as part of sexual maturation process in the same nature that homo/heterosexuality is, or are there other factors at play? Is there some innate flaw in that process for some people that cause them to beome pedos?

 

[that1dude24]

Yes, of course. I didn't mean that the idea is absurd, just that as an argument it is meaningless. If pedophilia could be treated by gene therapy so could homosexuality. Like you said, so what?

Because it is harmful when acted upon and likely creates a near constant struggle to combat for anyone afflicted with it?

 

[mre]

Why do people still argue with Sennorin in these threads? He's the guy who said, and I quote, "In an ideal world, my daughter would never have sex, period, or have it with me."

 

[J-Rod]

I'm not gay, but it seems sort of insulting to compare pedophilia to homosexuality. A homosexual's base desires do not involve hurting an innocent person. People are so caught up with being cool with other's sexual preferences that they have lost their reason. What if I desire strongly to hit defenseless elderly people, but don't act on it? Just because the evil act a pedo desires in their heart to do makes them cum, they deserve special sympathy? Wth people?

 

[Opiate]

Opiate to be clear are you asking for proof that there is no pedo gene or IS a "gay gene" (there isn't a single gay gene but twin studies indicate a strong genetic component to homosexuality along with hormone exposure in the womb)

I know we have found clinical evidence of genetic markers which predispose individuals towards homosexuality.

I am asking if we have evidence that similar markers do not exist for paedophiles. In other words, evidence that paedophilia is an entirely nurtured phenomena, and that no one is born with a predisposed sexual attraction to young people.

 

[levious]

Why do people still argue with Sennorin in these threads? He's the guy who said, and I quote, "In an ideal world, my daughter would never have sex, period, or have it with me."

whoa

 

[mantidor]

And there are also plenty that had a perfectly normal childhood.

I would find interesting some statistics on this, the stereotype might not be true, but I think in the case of pedophilia the overwhelming majority were indeed abused.


It is certainly NOT a sexual orientation, is more akin to a fetish, you can say that pedophiles are anyway heterosexuals or homosexuals depending on their preferred gender, I guess even bisexuals. But a sexual orientation is a big generic definition, their condition is not a sexual orientation at all, is an obsession at best. The disparage in the relationships they seek just screams disorder or psychopathy all over it, the relationships they fantasize about are not healthy in any way, they look for domination and control.

 

[Emerson]

It's also worth pointing out that the societal understanding of 'pedophile' includes a good portion of morally gray actions that humans have been doing for thousands of years. This being attraction towards adolescents. Yes, I know the distinction between pedophilia and ephebophilia, but the former is most often used to encompass both in common discussion.

Grown men have been marrying 13 year olds for a long time, until we decided it's not okay anymore. I agree that it is wrong, but the older you get the more unclear it becomes. I think any man who denied he'd ever seen a 16 year old he'd gladly fuck is a liar.

 

[mre]

whoa

And he maintained that his view was a normal one to hold: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29989445&postcount=510

 

[akira28]

What about the people without criminal records ? Amd how many of those used abuse as an excuse. People can be scum if they think they can get off lighter by using something like that.

They've done many studies on many sorts of people. I'm just ref'ing one of the many many ones they've done on their captive subjects, heh.

They weren't asking for excuses or explanations. Scientists were just combing through records. This wasn't about morailty or sentencing, just detective work trying to find connections through related facts. The studies are 60 years old, but the connections are pretty new actually. In the past people would consider it just an excuse, chalk it up to this being a Mad world. Yeah sure, violent criminals often come from broken homes, mother didn't love em, life's tough. Today people understand that effects have causes, and try to seek them out.

 

[Emerson]

Because it is harmful when acted upon and likely creates a near constant struggle to combat for anyone afflicted with it?

Again my point is misunderstood. If we found a cure for pedophilia and homosexuality, the former should be treated and the latter shouldn't. Obviously. My point is that saying it's possible, based on no factual information, is worthless as a debate point.

 

[confused]

It's also worth pointing out that the societal understanding of 'pedophile' includes a good portion of morally gray actions that humans have been doing for thousands of years. This being attraction towards adolescents. Yes, I know the distinction between pedophilia and ephebophilia, but the former is most often used to encompass both in common discussion.

Grown men have been marrying 13 year olds for a long time, until we decided it's not okay anymore. I agree that it is wrong, but the older you get the more unclear it becomes. I think any man who denied he'd ever seen a 16 year old he'd gladly fuck is a liar.

In some (quite a few) countries they still do.

They've done many studies on many sorts of people. I'm just ref'ing one of the many many ones they've done on their captive subjects, heh.

They weren't asking for excuses or explanations. Scientists were just combing through records. This wasn't about morailty or sentencing, just detective work trying to find connections through related facts. The studies are 60 years old, but the connections are pretty new actually. In the past people would consider it just an excuse, chalk it up to this being a Mad world. Yeah sure, violent criminals often come from broken homes, mother didn't love em, life's tough. Today people understand that effects have causes, and try to seek them out.

Yet paedophilia has been around for centuries if not millenia, All those people were abused as children ?

 

[that1dude24]

Again my point is misunderstood. If we found a cure for pedophilia and homosexuality, the former should be treated and the latter shouldn't. Obviously. My point is that saying it's possible, based on no factual information, is worthless as a debate point.

Oh, yeah it kinda is. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[ahoyhoy]

It's also worth pointing out that the societal understanding of 'pedophile' includes a good portion of morally gray actions that humans have been doing for thousands of years. This being attraction towards adolescents. Yes, I know the distinction between pedophilia and ephebophilia, but the former is most often used to encompass both in common discussion.

Grown men have been marrying 13 year olds for a long time, until we decided it's not okay anymore. I agree that it is wrong, but the older you get the more unclear it becomes. I think any man who denied he'd ever seen a 16 year old he'd gladly fuck is a liar.

The "gray" part is what's up to debate. I would feel kind of uneasy putting away some 20-something who had consensual sex with a fully developed 16 year old, though I can see why others wouldn't hesitate.

Still, it seems like we're talking more about attraction to undeveloped children, so that argument is kind of moot.

 

[crazy monkey]

It is bad in any case. Speaking of which what is sexual maturity age according to you?

 

[Gaborn]

I know we have found clinical evidence of genetic markers which predispose individuals towards homosexuality.

I am asking if we have evidence that similar markers do not exist for paedophiles. In other words, evidence that paedophilia is an entirely nurtured phenomena, and that no one is born with a predisposed sexual attraction to young people.

Well, obviously anything involving something that is self reported like sexual attraction and the development of attractions is EXTREMELY complex. I think that most organizations basically think that "something" happens to stunt the movement of attractions from children to adults.

Remember that almost EVERYONE is at some level attracted to someone underaged - when they themselves are underaged. It's normal for a 12 year old to be attracted to a 12 year old, it wouldn't be normal for a 40 year old. So I think the theory is for some reason they get "stuck" at the development level.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

the gay gene has been proven, but theres no study on any genetic link to pedophilia
so all we have to go on right now is the fact that pedophiles almost always appear to be sick in the head, at least the ones you hear about.

if there are a whole lot of healthy, level headed pedophiles out there, then I certainly havent heard of any

A gay gene?

 

[Deified Data]

I'm not gay, but it seems sort of insulting to compare pedophilia to homosexuality. A homosexual's base desires do not involve hurting an innocent person. People are so caught up with being cool with other's sexual preferences that they have lost their reason. What if I desire strongly to hit defenseless elderly people, but don't act on it? Just because the evil act a pedo desires in their heart to do makes them cum, they deserve special sympathy? Wth people?

Ha ha.

Sex is sex. It's not about right or wrong, it just is.

 

[Sennorin]

Not really? It's entirely possible that there will be a treatment for pedophilia in the future - if you know otherwise please provide me with a source.

What he said:

Speculating about some future cure for pedophilia is no different than arguing that homosexuality might still be cured one day.

@Devolution: See, this is where you should pause for a moment and think about something. That something being that people 50 years ago thought the very same. "X is okay, because we see how stupid we were, but Y will never be acceptable, and we know that for sure." And then the future became present and once again found people out they were stupid before.

And if we´re taking into account time, there´s several approaches to solve the issue of pedophilia without hurting anyone. For pure sexual needs, they could get "Real Dolls" (was a topic here on Gaf some time ago). Or, as video games improve and get closer to the Matrix-movies, that´s how pedophiles could live out their urges. And then there´d also be the sociological approach to tackle the question if children can never give consent; that would obviously be the most difficult one, since our current society is probably too ignorant to even ask that question. Not that I am.
What it comes down to: What seems now like a totally unacceptable disorder/fetish, could be solved in the future. We´re just not there, yet. But I think we as a society should always strive for improving *everybody´s* situation. Even if they *seem* like the bad guy at a first glimpse. You disagree with that?

 

[Londa]

Eh, disorder or no disorder it's still a sick fuck that wants to rape little children who think saying the dictonary term for their private parts is bad. Throw them all in jail.

 

[levious]

And he maintained that his view was a normal one to hold: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29989445&postcount=510

dude doesn't seem for real, what a waste of time...

 

[Opiate]

I'm not gay, but it seems sort of insulting to compare pedophilia to homosexuality. A homosexual's base desires do not involve hurting an innocent person. People are so caught up with being cool with other's sexual preferences that they have lost their reason. What if I desire strongly to hit defenseless elderly people, but don't act on it? Just because the evil act a pedo desires in their heart to do makes them cum, they deserve special sympathy? Wth people?

It's definitely a dangerous comparison to make, but hopefully we can be adults here. Comparing two things does not mean "we think they're alike in every capacity," but rather, that they share a few common characteristics.

As you say -- and I pointed out earlier -- paedophilia hurts people, while homosexuality does not. That's a big difference. That is not comparable. The similarity being compared instead is that both seem to be deeply held, personal sexual preferences that are almost "incurable."

We've stopped trying to "cure" homosexuals, for a variety of reasons. First, because there is nothing wrong with homosexuality that needs curing. Second, because it doesn't work even if there was something wrong. And lastly, because we've now discovered that there is a strong genetic predisposition to homosexuality, and fighting your genetics is really, really hard.

While paedophilia is wrong (unlike homosexuality), it does seem to be nigh-incurable, and as such may also have genetic markers. What do we do then, if it does have genetic markers? That's an honest question. I honestly think our best answer right now is, "sucks to be you, have fun fighting your genetics your entire life."

 

[Jenga]

In an ideal world, my daughter would never have sex, period, or have it with me

lol

 

[akira28]

Why do people still argue with Sennorin in these threads? He's the guy who said, and I quote, "In an ideal world, my daughter would never have sex, period, or have it with me."

Just throw bricks. Lots of them.

 

[SturokBGD]

What the...?

You guys keep on arguing your semantics. I'm gonna keep on punching dirty pedo fucks in the face whenever possible.

Also there's a major difference between a little kid and a 13 year old.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Eh, disorder or no disorder it's still a sick fuck that wants to rape little children who think saying the dictonary term for their private parts is bad. Throw them all in jail.

You're being too harsh on them. They deserve our utmost concern and patience. My suggestion isn't to punish them as you would. For I consider myself caring. My suggestion is to build a huge float, HUGE, prepare a nice deserted island for them and send them on their way to the island. Build a fence around the island to make sure nobody invades their new state. Let them live their for the rest of their days.

 

[Darklord]

Eh, disorder or no disorder it's still a sick fuck that wants to rape little children who think saying the dictonary term for their private parts is bad. Throw them all in jail.

But they DON'T all want to rape kids. If you find a woman attractive does that mean you want to rape her? I sure fucking hope not. I sure don't.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

But they DON'T all want to rape kids. If you find a woman attractive does that mean you want to rape her? I sure fucking hope not.

Correct,they just want to 'love' the children.