Pedophilia: sexual orientation or disorder?
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turnbuckle said:
You´re not close-minded. You´ve got no other choice. Ideally speaking, letting your kids near a *good* pedophile is putting them in as much danger as letting your adult daughter getting near *good* heterosexuals - they don´t just rape them/her.
But society has brainwashed itself so much into seeing pedophiles as these ominous, disgusting monsters that logic is thrown out of the windows. Therefore, realistically speaking, you *have to* get your kids away from a known pedophile, because a) you yourself believe that there is a bigger risk of something happening to your kids, or b) you cannot afford having other people know what a "bad" father you are, putting your kids at such risk. No matter what, you have no choice. That´s where society has ill-informed itself towards and it´s not likely that this will change anytime soon. I guess people need someone they can hate.
Mailenstein
Member
That's what I basically mean.Orayn said:
Devolution
Member
Sennorin said:
Um. You aren't helping yourself with these comparisons.
The problem with people acknowledging pedophilia as a sexual orientation is that it implies a certain amount of acceptance and right to act on it because putting laws to outlaw a sexual orientation is inhumane or whatever
It makes people breathe easier to call it a disorder so no laws can justify giving people who have this any rights
It makes people breathe easier to call it a disorder so no laws can justify giving people who have this any rights
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Sennorin said:
What? Are you SERIOUSLY arguing that a child is in the same amount of danger with a heterosexual who isn't a pedophile as an adult with a heterosexual? Please, PLEASE tell me you're not arguing that point.
Acerac
Banned
There is a thread about this because obviously there is a lot of discussion to be had about the subject, hence the thousands of posts made on these boards that have discussed this subject over the years. We have threads about many things, some that many would consider distasteful. I assure you, an intelligent discussion on the subject of a mental disorder (or fetish, or orientation, or whatever one wants to call it) is hardly the most offensive thing posted on these boards.El'Kharn said:
Devolution said:
I think these comparisons are pretty apt. What makes you think they´re not? Also, I would have loved to get a reply from you to one of my earlier postings, where I responded to you. Maybe you didn´t see it?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30925245&postcount=142
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Sennorin said:I think these comparisons are pretty apt. What makes you think they´re not? Also, I would have loved to get a reply from you to one of my earlier postings, where I responded to you. Maybe you didn´t see it?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30925245&postcount=142
Dolls? You do realize that letting pedophiles to live out their fantasy even with a doll or video game isn't going to RELIEVE them of their desire, right?
narcosis219
Member
ClovingSteam said:
I think what he is trying to say is that just because someone is attracted to something doesn't necessarily mean that they will 100% of the time seek to have sex with it.
Example being, you (assuming you're an average male) are attracted to women. Have you raped a woman before? But you HAVE fantasized countless times about having sex with women you are attracted to.
Are you dangerous? No, because you have a degree and self control. I believe that it is ignorant to assume that all pedophiles (or someone with any other fetish) is someone that has 0 self control.
His argument is that children are in as much danger when with a pedophile than a regular man with a woman. Granted, a child is more easily manipulated and other stuff; I'm not entirely supportive of his statement. I just want to clarify and point out a huge assumption many have taken without thought.
Devolution
Member
Sennorin said:I think these comparisons are pretty apt. What makes you think they´re not? Also, I would have loved to get a reply from you to one of my earlier postings, where I responded to you. Maybe you didn´t see it?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30925245&postcount=142
There are plenty of people in here arguing that pedophiles who want to improve or assist themselves should be able to get help, I agree. But your comparisons to homosexuals and now heterosexuals and rape is not at all apt. Their lust and acting upon it for the opposite gender (who can consent) is not the definition of rape.
notworksafe
Member
What the fuck are you talking about? Sorry, but letting your kids be watched over by a pedo is about as good of an idea as letting a klepto keep an eye on your wallet.Sennorin said:
He is wrong. Period.narcosis219 said:
Sennorin said:
terrible comparison as has been pointed out. Your adult daughter is an adult, she should look out for herself. A kid needs guidance and advice all the time, also protection. Kids are naive, easily manipulated and completely immature, because, of course, they are freaking kids. There's no brainwashing or boogie mans here.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
narcosis219 said:
Um, except children are not able to defend themselves like adults are able to. Children feel pressured to accept what is done to them by an adult. Children don't understand right and wrong. Children are not adults. He is trying to use a HORRIBLE comparison to prove his point and its not only idiotic its disgusting.
This is really pissing me off that someone can have this mindset. We already know he'd prefer his make believe daughter want to have sex with him over somebody else and now he is trying to use a comparison between an adult and a child? WTF.
CornBurrito
Member
ClovingSteam said:
Actually I've been skeptical of that claim, and I fear that might not be true.
Catharsis therapy (hitting a dummy with a picture of your boss on it so you don't punch the real deal in the face) has proven detrimental in the long term.
http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/0022-3514.76.3.367
"Blowing off steam" may reduce physiological stress in the short term, but this reduction may act as a reward mechanism, reinforcing the behavior and promoting future outbursts.
More sources on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis#Therapeutic_uses
Fapping to lolimanga and fictitious depictions of children (or dolls) may have a similar effect.
I hope that isn't the case. It would be good if loli manga and shit like that reduced the chances of a pedophile fucking real children.
edit: Oh you said ISNT. my bad.
narcosis219
Member
ClovingSteam said:
I'm just saying if I was stuck in a room with the hottest random girl ever and she was asleep, and I wanted to bone her, I'd suck it up and jerk it off once I'm out of the room or, because she is an adult, get consent. I have enough self control not to molest/rape her.
Whether or not they are able to defend themselves should be irrelevant in that situation. I thought we were discussing about whether or not pedophiles are inherently dangerous because all we hear about pedos are the rapists.
ReBurn
Gold Member
How is there even a comparison between homosexuality and pedophilia? I read the whole thread and I still don't understand how anyone could make a correlation.
A philia, by definition, is an attraction to or affinity for something. But that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be sexual. In my opinion we probably use the term pedophilia incorrectly most of the time, especially when we talk about child molesters or child rapists in this context. You don't have to be a pedophile to abuse a child, nor do you have to be a child rapist to feel an affinity or strong love for children. So to say that pedophilia is a sexual orientation would be incorrect. At least in my opinion.
Shouldn't it be called pedosexual if it were a sexual orientation? Not that it matters, because due to age of consent laws in most parts of the world, chances are that acting on those sexual urges would get you imprisoned for life. This is something I doubt we'll ever see changed.
A philia, by definition, is an attraction to or affinity for something. But that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be sexual. In my opinion we probably use the term pedophilia incorrectly most of the time, especially when we talk about child molesters or child rapists in this context. You don't have to be a pedophile to abuse a child, nor do you have to be a child rapist to feel an affinity or strong love for children. So to say that pedophilia is a sexual orientation would be incorrect. At least in my opinion.
Shouldn't it be called pedosexual if it were a sexual orientation? Not that it matters, because due to age of consent laws in most parts of the world, chances are that acting on those sexual urges would get you imprisoned for life. This is something I doubt we'll ever see changed.
turnbuckle
Member
Sennorin said:
What? No, it's nothing like that. Just like I have several gay friends and *gulp* even was "brave" enough to sleep in the same bed with one (best friend, shared a bed with him as kids and teenagers when I'd stay over sometimes, when he came out I felt it would be shitty to decide to sleep on the floor all of a sudden just because he was gay).
I don't care what society thinks. We could be on a remote island and because I took a divination class I could have the foresight to know the good pedophile wouldn't touch my children and I still wouldn't leave them alone with him/her.
And there's a lot of things people hate in this world that they don't need pedophiles as a proxy to meet their quota. It's a horrible disorder for one to have, and all the power to the ones that control their urges and try to get help, but as much as one could empathize with their struggle (and it's very difficult to do so) it's not unjustified for people to be utterly disturbed by them.
Devolution
Member
narcosis219 said:
I understand what he's getting at, however, lusting after adults and being able to act upon those feelings (and it being okay) is what separates homosexuals/heterosexuals from pedophiles. Now pedophiles who don't act on their urges, which is more than likely the majority of them, aren't monsters. But these comparisons he keeps making are not at helpful to the ideas he's trying to express. Someone like Obsessed is doing a much better job of it.
Karsticles
Member
It is a sexual orientation, but not all sexual orientations are necessarily something that should be smiled upon or allowed.
Acerac
Banned
It's Sennorin, what do you expect?ClovingSteam said:
In all fairness to his point, much of the reason why there is an increased danger from these individuals is because they have no outlet for their desires. As distasteful as it sounds, if artwork or computer generated images were available for these people they would have at least have some outlet. As is, they currently have nothing but their imagination and kiddie porn which is harmful to children due to the very fact that it is produced. Is it so surprising that they are dangerous to children?
I believe small concessions for this group would go a long way in reducing their overall threat to youth. Not treating them like monsters who all deserve to be thrown in jail for having these thoughts that they can't control (hi Londa!) would be a good first step.
*Shrug*ClovingSteam said:
Masturbation and sex toys don't stop me from wanting to have sex altogether, but they sure take the edge off. I don't see why it'd be any different here.
cutmeamango
Banned
Dever said:
By your phrasing, disorder.
Obsessed said:
So if someone tells you they want to kill you but they try their best to hold back the urge, you will still hang around them?
If a man told a woman they wanted to rape her but knowing its wrong prevents them from doing it. Are you going to tell me you would tell that woman that she is crazy for wanting him to be detained?
planar1280
Banned
From what I have seen and read of pedophiles. it simply seems to be a like of adults of kids. Something similar to a man liking a woman but in a corrupted and immoral sense it is directed towards people of younger age. Personally I don't think there is a cure for it right now but due to the fact that it is incurable as of now, you cannot just throw them in jail to reform. You need to study them and treat them like people who have real issues in the head.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Acerac said:
Studies have shown that simply living out your fantasies via media doesn't alleviate your desires. In reality it reinforces them and creates even greater need and desire. Look up a few posts for an example of such studies.
I'd bet that there is a much higher chance that by living out some fantasies (rape, S&M, pedophilia fantasies) via media or magazine will heighten ones desire to go out and try to live out such fantasies in real life.
Devolution said:
For one, I think the whole "we have to offer pedophiles help" is wrong from the very beginning. At least in the way a lot of people are meaning to help them. Castrating them or making them swallow some chemicals to supress their sexual nature is not a form of help most will want. Much rather, I´d think most *good* pedophiles simply want to be accepted. And nothing else.
Secondly, I don´t think using the term rape here as is defined by law isn´t of much use for this debate. Not that I´m in any way trying to legitimize it, but I´m sure a pedophile could get closer to a kid without resorting to violence. Of course, it´d still be wrong.
narcosis219 said:
Exactly that. Could my posting really be interpreted in any other way? Sorry if so.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
ClovingSteam said:
His point was that the pedophile, aka someone with attractions to children, would be very unlikely to act on these attractions... because most people, including pedophiles, understand right from wrong. So the child would never have to defend themselves.
notworksafe
Member
Explain this please.Sennorin said:
CornBurrito
Member
Londa said:
No I wouldn't hang around them... but how is that even the equivalent of locking them up for life?
And the women wouldn't be crazy for avoiding the man and perhaps getting a restraining order.
Did I make either of those claims? I'm confused. Do you build strawmen when you aren't doing your viral marketing shtick?
But no. I wouldn't support locking them up for thought crimes. They deserve any psychological help we can provide in order to PREVENT them from acting on their urges and ensuring that we have a productive member of society rather than another person in the prison-industrial complex.
Acerac said:
Read my post about Catharsis therapy. Psychologically it may have the same effect.
I don't know. Japan has tons of rape video-games, movies etc. but statistic wise, they seem to have less actual rape cases than the U.S.A or Germany.ClovingSteam said:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
( though I don't know about the Japanese society; it's possible that the women are too ashamed to report that they have been violated)
Orayn said:
It's called prevention. Just like with sexual harrassment in the work place. If a man came up to a woman in the work place and said to her that he wanted to have sex with her and the woman felt that it was sexual harassment and reported it.... he would be in serious trouble.
06nbarnhill
Member
I really don't find the comparisons between it and homosexuality to be that absurd. They make sense. The problem with Pedo's is that what they do hurts others.
(and this is coming from a gay man)
(and this is coming from a gay man)
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Kinyou said:
It's possible that women are less likely to report rape but also that there is less porn, the men are less likely to rape anyhow, etc.
Look at the catharsis therapy studies that Obsessed posted.
CornBurrito
Member
Londa said:
Yeah, he would get fired, but not jailed.
And he would get fired because you need your workers to feel safe. The woman would naturally not feel safe.
You keep on saying "YOU WOULDNT WANNA HANG AROUND THEM" as if our emotional reaction somehow legitimizes jailing people for thought crimes.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Disorder. Problem is, it's such a taboo subject that's it's difficult for people to come forward and get the help they need. Or even expose themselves to clinical research and studies it would take.
I don't know what makes a human being find kids stimulating in that way. But I do think it's a disorder and acting on it is a crime that should be punished. It's not the same as having a cold and sneezing.
In the end a kids right to not get abused should trump the "it's a disorder!" card.
I don't know what makes a human being find kids stimulating in that way. But I do think it's a disorder and acting on it is a crime that should be punished. It's not the same as having a cold and sneezing.
In the end a kids right to not get abused should trump the "it's a disorder!" card.
narcosis219
Member
Orayn said:
Please keep your seatbelt on for the slippery slope of "pedophiles have 0 self control because all I hear about pedos are the rape/molestation stories".
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