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[Fixed2BeBroken]

East Asian people do have a problem with putting white people on a pedestal and treating other ethnicities like shit, but worship is going a bit far.

I don't claim to know what it was like in Japan or China, but in Korea, pale complexion was a desirable physical trait at least since medieval times.

Also, if you take a look at pictures which show women who were considered beauties in the 1920s:

They're not that different from what is considered beautiful in modern Korea.

Being treated like shit just for having a darker complexion is a real problem though, not going to deny that. But I wouldn't necessarily find it's roots from worship of white people.



Not this shit again

what people don't realize is the light complextion thing doesn't have to do with "white people" and has to do with Perceived Class.

 

[wandering]

That title is kind of misleading, the interview largely consists of these Japanese actresses dragging the film and lambasting Hollywood's treatment of non-white actors.

How did you feel when that twist was revealed?

Agena: That was hard, y’all. Hard and awkward.

Ai Yoshihara: Major’s backstory is white people trying to justify the casting.

Okatsuka: And they f—ed up in the process because now it looks even worse. The text at the beginning of the movie explained that Hanka Robotics is making a being that’s the best of human and the best of robotics. For some reason, the best stuff they make happens to be white. Michael Pitt used to be Hideo.

Agena: That was the other cringe-worthy moment, when they called each other by their Japanese names. We’re looking at these beautiful white bodies saying these Japanese names, and it hurt my heart a little bit.

Kato-Kiriyama: It was supposed to be so touching and intimate, and it felt gross. And kind of laugh-worthy at the same time.

As a performer of Japanese descent, where are you putting yourself in the movie? Where do you see yourself reflected? The opening sequence where Major comes in and beats up the geisha robots, are you seeing yourself through the hero’s eyes?

Okatsuka: It’s not even about seeing me on the screen as a performer. It’s a bigger concern. It’s 2017 and I don’t know why these representation issues are still happening. It’s overwhelming. This means so much to our community but is so on the side, still, for a lot of people.

Kato-Kiriyama: It’s dispensable. We still feel dispensable.

Hollywood prides itself on being very progressive, very pro-diversity. One common defense of this movie is that it’s incredibly diverse.

Yoshihara: Yeah, a bunch of the Asian people got killed. All the minor roles are Asians who didn’t have lines. But all the core characters except Beat Takeshi and the mother were mainly white.

Kato-Kiriyama: The question itself has to be challenged. Why are you trying to drum up examples of people of color or specifically Japanese who are OK with it? Is it so you feel justified in maintaining your norm? Don’t you want to know why people are hurt? Aren’t you curious, as an artist? Isn’t there anywhere in your progressive, liberal mind that’s curious about the people that are feeling hurt?

Okatsuka: I don’t think people are curious about the hurt. That’s why organizations have had to start presenting hard numbers. “You want money? Here are numbers. The more people of color you put in something, the more people watch it.”

Scarlett Johansson has noted that Ghost in the Shell represented a rare opportunity for a woman to star in a studio-backed action film. Tilda Swinton and her Doctor Strange filmmakers also have noted that gender-bending The Ancient One was a positive step for female representation. What do you make of their points?

Kato-Kiriyama: It’s trying to get the conversation away from race yet again. Sure, it’s a great role for women. I don’t know if kickass white women action stars is such a void, but even that aside, it’s trying to step over the dead body. That’s fine when there are empowered characters who are women, but that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re actually talking about race. Can we just stay here for a little bit?

Okatsuka: When white feminists don’t know what to say about race, they go for the feminist thing. That’s what happened with the Women’s March. When women of color were like, “Will you be there, though, for the next march, when the next black kid gets shot? Will you be there when women of color need you?,” they were like, “Wasn’t it great for women all around?”

Kato-Kiriyama: To the argument they were making through Doctor Strange about not wanting to create the Fu Manchu character, it’s like, well, then don’t.

Okatsuka: Give them words to speak that aren’t stereotypical.

Kato-Kiriyama: “If I stick an Asian there, they’re gonna be too Oriental.” That’s how you see us. If you can’t see an Asian actor as a fully dimensional human being...

 

[Zoe]

It's an interview with four Japanese/Japanese American actresses about Asian representation in Hollywood.

The worship line takes up a very small part of the article, but people are running with that rather than addressing anything else that was said.

 

[Spinluck]

Anime characters look white to me.

 

[Frozenprince]

The worship line takes up a very small part of the article, but people are running with that rather than addressing anything else that was said.

Because it's easier to dismiss the criticism doing so.

 

[Jotaka]

You are right. Many cultures independently come to privilege pale skin over dark, because the upper classes tend to be literally sheltered indoors, while the lower classes actually do work out in the sun. See also India, etc.

It's really another negative side effect of economic stratification.

And don't forget that the trend is go more white (aka non tan) not ONLY because is the standard of beauty... its because people stay indoor much longer in the modern society. There is nothing magical about that.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Here's some PC Magazine covers back in the day and an ad. Sorry for the bad quality.

Sometimes in modern times if the girl isn't "light enough" heavy use of photoshop is used. Hell, photoshop is used like crazy anyways since it can create a mask. You'll notice this in any semi professional cosplay images. I feel bad for the poor bastards buying porn over there. It's like Russian roulette with whether the girl will look the same as she does on the cover.

This awful shit was also popular in Japan, and was considered attractive and sexy 15-20 years ago.

Regardless, there is a long history in Japanese and other Asian cultures to prefer light colored skin, and that comes from the caste system. High class women wouldn't have tans and would have light skin.

 

[Principate]

What?!

Edit: I think you're probably joking.

Posts pick of excellent quality bait and it's not in 4k.

What the fuck is this shit?

 

[Pancake Mix]

I really don't buy this. Asian Americans are not "fellow countrymen". Perhaps it's baffling to someone from US but the way, for example, Chinese and Japanese regard each other is as if they come from different planets.

Indeed, they're unlikely to identify as coming from a vague "Asian" tick box like Americans of European and African origin tend to cluster in with equivalents.

It's a whole different way of looking at the world.

There was another thread a while back where a self-identified Indian poster got all hot and bothered by the term "white" and even threw out terms like retarded, when the reality is that "white" and "black" people don't care, and don't place those same barriers around themselves that he says Asians do, including South Asians. It was amusing to read and it just goes to show that Asia has a whole different way of looking at things than say, the Americas and even to a smaller extent Europe.

 

[Frozenprince]

This awful shit was also popular in Japan, and was considered attractive and sexy 15-20 years ago.

Regardless, there is a long history in Japanese and other Asian cultures to prefer light colored skin, and that comes from the caste system. High class women wouldn't have tans and would have light skin.

Gyaru were never considered to be a beauty standard. It was a fashion style that lasted less than two years. Ganguro girls were and still are considered fucking weird.

It's like saying kangols is a beauty standard.

 

[BocoDragon]

Agena: That was the other cringe-worthy moment, when they called each other by their Japanese names. We’re looking at these beautiful white bodies saying these Japanese names, and it hurt my heart a little bit.

Kato-Kiriyama: It was supposed to be so touching and intimate, and it felt gross. And kind of laugh-worthy at the same time.

I liked the movie. But this is so true. The cringe was very very real.

All the whitewashing excusing subplot is the worst part of the film. (actually

Spoiler

Motoko's mother was a pretty touching actress, but her role within the story is cringey

)

 

[Doikor]

Regardless, there is a long history in Japanese and other Asian cultures to prefer light colored skin, and that comes from the caste system. High class women wouldn't have tans and would have light skin.

Yeah the light skin tone thing is quite universal. That shit existed in many places in Europe too back in the day. Peasants/slaves had darker skin tones from working outdoors while the rich/royalty stayed indoors/in the shade and had lighter skin.

 

[Trojita]

This awful shit was also popular in Japan, and was considered attractive and sexy 15-20 years ago.

Regardless, there is a long history in Japanese and other Asian cultures to prefer light colored skin, and that comes from the caste system. High class women wouldn't have tans and would have light skin.

Gangaroo weren't really considered attractive.....

 

[Frozenprince]

Gangaroo weren't really considered attractive.....

More freaks then anything.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I really don't buy this. Asian Americans are not "fellow countrymen". Perhaps it's baffling to someone from US but the way, for example, Chinese and Japanese regard each other is as if they come from different planets.

Which doesn't contradict what I said...my point is if, for instance, a Japanese American actor got to the level of AA or AAA in Hollywood, or maybe even a Japanese born actor who transitioned from Japanese cinema to Hollywood, that would cause excitement in Japan. When I say "fellow countryman", I literally meant from the same country, not some blanket statement on all Asians

 

[Cyframe]

Colorism manifests itself in a lot of communities. And even if a person doesn't ascribe to colorist thinking, you have examples like the actress mentioned where a person can hold white women on the pedestal. So everyone is affected by colorism.

And just to clear things up, People of Color is a collaborative term created by Black women to be more inclusive to other marginalized groups in America while fighting for civil rights. It's not an us vs them term, it was created out of necessity because if you weren't white you were having a hard time.

The almost irony is that skin bleaching ( sometimes masqueraded asbrightening creams) is that they aren't advertised in the US commonly, and receive pushback if a commercial promoting bleaching gets airtime. Outside of the US, I hear that they can be prevalent.

The last thing that I want to mention that annoyed me with this Ghost In The Shell film controversy, was that people dismissed Asian Americans who had an issue with the film by citing native Japanese as if they live in the same country. In Japan, most of the time you can see your own heritage represented. In America that doesn't happen. So I hope the same people are able to catch this interview and see that both Asian Americans and Japanese actors see a problem.

 

[wandering]

Which doesn't contradict what I said...my point is if, for instance, a Japanese American actor got to the level of AA or AAA in Hollywood, or maybe even a Japanese born actor who transitioned from Japanese cinema to Hollywood, that would cause excitement in Japan. When I say "fellow countryman", I literally meant from the same country, not some blanket statement on all Asians

No you see the most important thing is to remind everyone how Asians all hate each other and don't get along

 

[zelas]

This is exactly why I initially laughed at Oshii offering his opinion on the subject. But then his comments were even more ridiculous than I expected.

The desire to be/worship white people combined with that country's on going track record with cultural and social issues gives me every reason not to expect much of japanese public opinion. And they're not the only asian country guilty of that.

 

[Zoe]

Gangaroo weren't really considered attractive.....

More freaks then anything.

They are extreme. Namie-style kogal was popular for a hot minute though. She was actually criticized for being too pale when she came back from maternity leave.

 

[sixteen-bit]

When that half-black half-Japanese woman won Miss Japan I thought we were getting somewhere

Ariana Miyamoto the GOAT

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Which doesn't contradict what I said...my point is if, for instance, a Japanese American actor got to the level of AA or AAA in Hollywood, or maybe even a Japanese born actor who transitioned from Japanese cinema to Hollywood, that would cause excitement in Japan. When I say "fellow countryman", I literally meant from the same country, not some blanket statement on all Asians

Maybe a Japanese actor, Ken Watanabe is still a big deal there, but Japan doesn't give a shit about Japanese-Americans.

 

[- J - D -]

I feel like the title of the original article worked perfectly fine without your editorializing, OP:

'Ghost in the Shell': 4 Japanese Actresses Dissect the Movie and Its Whitewashing Twist'

 

[Frozenprince]

They are extreme. Namie-style kogal was popular for a hot minute though. She was actually criticized for being too pale when she came back from maternity leave.

Still you see them about as much as you see like, Sukeban. Probably less at this point. I can count the number of girls in kogal style outfits I met on one hand.

 

[dbztrk]

Why is he called Goku Black?

Because black = bad/evil and this Goku is evil.

 

[Somnid]

Sounds like more overgeneralizing to me. Race conversation tends to be very absolute, but it's really relative to the particular context. Asians in America are not Asians in Asia. Straddling the two gives some unique perspectives but I'd keep it to how I feel being in that unique position, realize what makes it special good and bad and not *splain others.

 

[Frozenprince]

Sounds like more overgeneralizing to me. Race conversation tends to be very absolute, but it's really relative to the particular context. Asians in America are not Asians in Asia. Straddling the two gives some unique perspectives but I'd keep it to how I feel being in that unique position, realize what makes it special good and bad and not *splain others.

Reas the article.

 

[Trojita]

Which doesn't contradict what I said...my point is if, for instance, a Japanese American actor got to the level of AA or AAA in Hollywood, or maybe even a Japanese born actor who transitioned from Japanese cinema to Hollywood, that would cause excitement in Japan. When I say "fellow countryman", I literally meant from the same country, not some blanket statement on all Asians

Don't the Japanese overwhelmingly hate that one Japanese actress that appears in Hollywood Films? Think it was Rinko Kikuchi.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

I feel like the title of the original article works perfectly fine, OP:

'Ghost in the Shell': 4 Japanese Actresses Dissect the Movie and Its Whitewashing Twist'

Actually that title wasn't great either, it took a bit to realize that the participants were all Japanese or Japanese-American women who were in America and trying to make it in the American entertainment industry. The interview would probably be different if it was with Japanese actresses in Japan.

 

[CrazyHorse]

And we here worship the Japanese. Funny world.

 

[Nabbis]

Which doesn't contradict what I said...my point is if, for instance, a Japanese American actor got to the level of AA or AAA in Hollywood, or maybe even a Japanese born actor who transitioned from Japanese cinema to Hollywood, that would cause excitement in Japan. When I say "fellow countryman", I literally meant from the same country, not some blanket statement on all Asians

Are you expecting Hollywood to cover all the ethnicities in the world? I really doubt that will happen.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Maybe a Japanese actor, Ken Watanabe is still a big deal there, but Japan doesn't give a shit about Japanese-Americans.

Because there aren't any famous Japanese American actors. Maybe a few are somewhat known from TV roles, but not at the worldwide recognition level, because they're never given a chance.

For example my parents knows about John Boyega, not because they gives a shit about Star Wars, but because he reps his Nigerian heritage and it was picked up on by some Nigerian blogs and news sites they read. These things matter. Representation matters. And I am sure if more minority actors actually hit it big, that would have ramifications worldwide

Are you expecting Hollywood to cover all the ethnicities in the world? I really doubt that will happen.

I can't tell if you're accidentally or intentionally missing my point. You seem very much caught up on "People from x country hate everyone who isn't from the same country". My point is simple. The white standard of beauty, association with fame and seeming "idolization" is because that's what's propped up by Hollywood, which is the most commonly consumed entertainment market around the world. When it becomes more diverse and we start seeing different faces, those changes in attitude will spread to the markets that consume it. There's nothing inherently more beautiful or special about white people over other races. It's just what Hollywood props up, and what other countries see when they watch Hollywood films. THAT'S IT.

 

[Lovely Salsa]

You are right. Many cultures independently come to privilege pale skin over dark, because the upper classes tend to be literally sheltered indoors, while the lower classes actually do work out in the sun. See also India, etc.

It's really another negative side effect of economic stratification.

If that were the case then fat people would've been seen as attractive in sweden. Since it was a display of wealth back in the day

 

[capitalCORN]

And we here worship the Japanese. Funny world.

Who's 'we'?

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Because there aren't any famous Japanese American actors. Maybe a few are somewhat known from TV roles, but not at the worldwide recognition level, because they're never given a chance.

this.

Most of the famous asian american actors (the very few) are Korean. Actually don't think there are any "famous asian american" actors that are japanese-american

 

[BocoDragon]

If that were the case then fat people would've been seen as attractive in sweden. Since it was a display of wealth back in the day

Heavier people have been considered more attractive at various points in history for just that reason.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Dude clearly never watched any quality JAV.

On a more serious note, this is very sad but expected.

True story.

 

[Lights and Waves]

And we here worship the Japanese. Funny world.

Who is we? Weeaboo? Otaku? I'm confident that the majority of westerners don't worship the Japanese in the slightest.

Sure, it seems like a cool place to visit, but I doubt many people gaze out their window, sighing, just wishing of how their lives would be so much better in Japan.

 

[Oxn]

Who's 'we'?

Gaf

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

Indeed, they're unlikely to identify as coming from a vague "Asian" tick box like Americans of European and African origin tend to cluster in with equivalents.

It's a whole different way of looking at the world.

There was another thread a while back where a self-identified Indian poster got all hot and bothered by the term "white" and even threw out terms like retarded, when the reality is that "white" and "black" people don't care and place those same barriers around themselves that he says Asians do, including South Asians.

Indeed. Even Asian Americans here tend to stick with their own. Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Viet, Cambodian etc. Unfortunately one of the biggest hurdles when fighting for more Asian representation is probably getting Asians to band together for it. Asian Americans still have their cultural identity and know what part of Asia they come from, so it's easy to view other Asians not part of you. The Asian American experience is very different from the black American experience in that regard, which I think it is partly why Black representation has made more progress in the Hollywood.

 

[wandering]

If that were the case then fat people would've been seen as attractive in sweden. Since it was a display of wealth back in the day

Uh, go search up some Renaissance paintings. Plumpness was definitely considered attractive in Europe at the time.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Because there aren't any famous Japanese American actors. Maybe a few are somewhat known from TV roles, but not at the worldwide recognition level, because they're never given a chance.

For example my parents knows about John Boyega, not because they gives a shit about Star Wars, but because he reps his Nigerian heritage and it was picked up on by some Nigerian blogs and news sites they read. These things matter. Representation matters. And I am sure if more minority actors actually hit it big, that would have ramifications worldwide

The issue with Japan is that Japan has it's own well developed entertainment industry. It's part of the reason why the previous comments from Oshii don't really reflect what the four women in this article experienced. If you're a Japanese person in Japan you are surrounded by Japanese people in every aspect of entertainment playing every possible role you can think of. Hollywood also exists, but in parallel. Japanese people don't have the same need for representation in Hollywood.

Edit: to be clear representation issues are still very important, for Asian-Americans and Japanese-Americans, it's just that Japanese people don't care.

 

[airmangataosenai]

...the article is literally a transcription of a discussion taking place between four Japanese women.

...And?

You can find people that will validate any pre conceived notion you want. Would you be just as accepting of a discussion say, between Ben Carson and Thomas Sowell on race in America? I would hope not.

 

[capitalCORN]

Gaf

That's mostly a Gaming side issue.

 

[BocoDragon]

Indeed. Even Asian Americans here tend to stick with their own. Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Viet, Cambodian etc. Unfortunately one of the biggest hurdles when fighting for more Asian representation is probably getting Asians to band together for it. Asian Americans still have their cultural identity and know what part of Asia they come from, so it's easy to view other Asians not part of you. The Asian American experience is very different from the black American experience in that regard, which I think it is partly why Black representation has made more progress in the Hollywood.

If true, it'd be kind of an interesting irony that black people having their ethnic/national origins obscured by slavery could allow them to coalesce as a sub-group in America and see any black representation benefitting the whole group.

 

[Lovely Salsa]

Heavier people have been considered more attractive at various points in history for just that reason.

Well, yeah and that stopped. Then why didnt it stop in asia?

This is ridiculous, europeans love to tan and do everything possible to get a tan in the summer even if it means a fake tan. I guess I just dont get it

 

[- J - D -]

Actually that title wasn't great either, it took a bit to realize that the participants were all Japanese or Japanese-American women who were in America and trying to make it in the American entertainment industry. The interview would probably be different if it was with Japanese actresses in Japan.

Small beans, though I'll concede that appending the article title with '-American' would've made it absolutely clear.

 

[Lights and Waves]

...And?

You can find people that will validate any pre conceived notion you want. Would you be just as accepting of a discussion say, between Ben Carson and Thomas Sowell on race in America? I would hope not.

No, but when it comes to a conversation about the lack of visibility of asian actresses in Hollywood, I'm going to accept a discussion by four asian acctress in Hollywood - especially coming from a reputable Hollywood trade publication.

You're giving me serious "middle school western otaku sees Japan as literal utopia and denounces anything that criticizes Japan" vibes.

 

[Lovely Salsa]

Uh, go search up some Renaissance paintings. Plumpness was definitely considered attractive in Europe at the time.

That was my point lol

 

[capitalCORN]

...And?

You can find people that will validate any pre conceived notion you want. Would you be just as accepting of a discussion say, between Ben Carson and Thomas Sowell on race in America? I would hope not.

So you're arguing against Japanese people over their perceived representation? To the point you're going to make Carson and Sowell references?

 

[UnemployedVillain]

The issue with Japan is that Japan has it's own well developed entertainment industry. It's part of the reason why the previous comments from Oshii don't really reflect what the four women in this article experienced. If you're a Japanese person in Japan you are surrounded by Japanese people in every aspect of entertainment playing every possible role you can think of. Hollywood also exists, but in parallel. Japanese people don't have the same need for representation in Hollywood.

I realize that completely, as it's why I don't put too much thought into Japanese comments on white washing, because they don't have a lack of representation like Japanese Americans do. My point was more about the seeming idolization of white people and where that comes from. That isn't because there's anything special about white people that allows them to fit into other country's standards of fame and beauty, it's simply because they're what's being pushed as the "standard" to foreign countries that consume American media. When that changes attitudes towards other races and their standards of beauty will at least start to change as well