....is that a yes?
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Persona Community Thread |OT9| SPOILER TAGS OR DIE
- Thread starter Dantis
- Start date
Funyarinpa
Member
It was a bad idea to watch a couple hours into the game...
IT LOOKS SO FUCKING GOOD OH FUCK
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
Lol I've watched all the way through the first dungeon. Anxiety + illness meant seeking out something comforting to watch, and that was what I chose. It was fun trying to read the Japanese. I was surprised how much I could pick up even with just my classes from a while back. I at least could usually figure out the topics of conversation, if not anything even resembling nuance or detail. It made me really tempted to import, lol.
Edit: I will say that I love the way the protagonist's awakening is framed this time.
Edit 2: Actually, can anyone who's played the game answer a question?
The final push through the first dungeon has an instrumental Life Will Change take over the normal dungeon music. Is it always instrumental or does it switch to the voiced version in the later dungeons?
It's a "I still think it's amusing you bag on Yukiko when Naoto is patently worse as a character"
A Dead Diehard
Member
Shots fired!
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
This is what I wanted to hear!
If we're being sincere, then I genuinely disagree.
Naoto's part in the investigation scenes is broadly bleh, but she's a better character outside of them and besides Yosuke, none of the party members are great in them anyway.
Yukiko is a character whose stated personality is assumed but never actually shown. Everyone says she's 'nice', but when? In social scenes she's often aloof, sometimes condescending and sometimes severe. Her S Link consists of you doing something for her, rather than with her (something I think is unique to her?). I suppose if you give it some thought, there are aspects that you can glean from it. Ignoring the laugh, she's excitable and has a goofy sense of humour, which goes against her initial portrayal, which is interesting. She's hardworking and introverted. She's pretty nice to Chie and Nanako, I guess. But beyond that, she's kind of plain? Persona characters are usually pretty interesting because there are aspects to the character that can be assumed by off hand comments and conversations, but I don't feel like Yukiko has as much to go on.
Mediking
Member
Probably only because you don't remember what Atlus comedy is most of the time.
I laughed during Persona 1. There's an extremely perverted guy and a girl arguing in the school.
I laughed during P3 during the beach and when they were in the spa thingie.
I laughed during P4 too.
I need my comeddddyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
Let's not gloss over how badly she worsens the Investigation scenes. The fact that she's "better" outside of them is of little concern when a significant portion of her involvement in P4 revolves around them. And she is bad. As I've said before, she's a patronizing exposition tool that kills the natural flow of the Investigation Team. The entire goddamn point of the Investigation Team was that a bunch of regular kids who got in way over their head are trying to solve a murder mystery. Naoto is a narrative cheat because she expedites to process for finding the culprit. There's straight up less tension as she (tediously) lays out the ground work for finding the killer. This absolutely bites. Interesting and dynamic group conversations and banter are gone, replaced with Naoto painfully leading the discussions while Yu agrees.
Naoto isn't special outside of these scenes either. The idea of a 15 year old genius detective is frankly, stupid as hell, since it heavily strains believability (she literally runs around with a gun, lmao). Her arc revolves around her frustration of being treated like a child (which newsflash, you're a fucking child Naoto) and the fact that her gender creates obstacles in the work place/prevents her from being like the male role model she admires. It's a decent idea, but completely marred by the fact that it's never shown in the game itself. It's just something we're supposed to take at face value; everyone else has their problems clearly elucidated to player, while Naoto doesn't which makes it harder to emphasize with her. A simple scene showing Naoto being marginalized at the work place would be fine, but there's literally none of that. (This is probably so many people think Naoto has gender identity issues). Furthermore, her issues barely get touched upon again, even in her goddamn social link. (Though expecting them to deal with sexism was perhaps a bit too much).
Man, that's not even the end of it. There's more. Naoto is a character that receives pandering. Naoto receives so much goddamn pandering, it's not even funny. And then there's her Christmas event, which is like pretty much the single worst scene in Persona 4. I guess I could go into her interpersonal group relationships and how meager (outside of Kanji which sucks) but this post is getting a bit too long.
Naoto is a pretty mediocre character dude. Like I know you really, really, really, really, really, really, really like her, and that's totally fine, but trying to downplay the rest of the IT in order her to prop her up as anything more than just a mediocre character is a big no-no, my guy.
A Dead Diehard
Member
UNACCEPTABLE!!!
The fourth auto-complete is 'clues'.
The fourth auto-complete is 'clues'.
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
Damn PK. :O
This is the only way you could make Marie worse than she already is
because at least her current role kinda adds something to a character who doesn't get a lot of screen time. Whether that's worth putting up with the other problems Marie brings to the table is another debate.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Fuck the what.
StarSketch
Banned
This makes even less sense. Why would this even be necessary.
I know you say a lot of weird shit but what
Working on FFXVI is clearly taking its toll on poor Mediking...
i like the idea of marie and what she represents but she's so awkwardly shoehorned in it's difficult to like her in golden.
i like her a bit better in q and arena cos she... uh... i dunno, is just kinda added to the blue man group instead and they're already a bunch of fuckin' weirdos
i like her a bit better in q and arena cos she... uh... i dunno, is just kinda added to the blue man group instead and they're already a bunch of fuckin' weirdos
Mediking
Member
Hahahah c'mon, you guys. I was joking about making Marie to be Adachi's daughter. I was joking! But I'm not joking about her being borderline trash. She's a wannabe tsundere and the only good thing about her is how she turns out at the end.
And yeah.... FFXVI is progressing really good.
Mediking
Member
Marie is a wannabe tsundere.
Missed opportunity.
Once you discover the truth about her, you're just like... "Atlus, why?????"
She kinda has a good design.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Marie helps
Plus shes great
make the true ending feel less like its out of left field
Plus shes great
I can prop her up instead since shes the best P4 character
Funyarinpa
Member
Naoto is fun. But she comes in too late to feel like an integral part of it all (especially since she is also shy).
Marie is somewhat endearing though she has little relevance (P4G, P3 spoiler)
Marie is somewhat endearing though she has little relevance (P4G, P3 spoiler)
until the endgame, where she has the best designed dungeon in P3-P4, as well as possibly the second best bost battle after Nyx. Never played vanilla but she didn't feel out of place by the end. Could have used more scenes with her.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Definitely would've liked to have her earlier, or maybe more of her before she joins the group.
I don't want to get into everything all over again since we've done this song and dance a million times, but with the whole christmas event I find that complaint completely bizarre. Its an intimate moment with a significant other. Naoto doing something because she thinks it will make Yu happy even though shes wrestling with her insecurities to pull it off. People do shit like that all the time whenever they are in a relationship. Go to a party with all your girlfriends coworkers you have never met. Go see a shitty movie. You do shit you arent a fan of in a relationship to make people happy. Naoto just chose something without Yu asking and decided to give it a try, and that choice laid her insecurities bare while also showing a desire to get past them
I don't get this argument, she's practically an unofficial member after Rise's dungeon is finished and that gives her more than enough time to stand out among the cast.
Marie is straight garbo Golden, but she's actually pretty amazing in Persona Q so it kind of balances out? Maybe.
I just can't agree with that at all. Her Christmas event (wherein she decides to dress up for you) just feels incredibly dishonest and pandery, because it's predicated on Y(o)u telling her to act a certain way (speaking in a higher pitch in the ENG version, using female pronouns in the JP version). That's not how relationships work; you don't shape your partner's personality because it suits you, you accept them for who they are, warts and all. It's a huge contrast from your relationship with Chie who asks if you're okay with dating a hardcore tomboy (ofc you are). Also, there is no desire or attempt on Naoto's part to get past her insecurities like you described; she still goes back to wearing her default outfit because it makes her uncomfortable, she's just happy to show it Y(o)u. (The moving on happens in the epilogue)
Her default Christmas event is much, much, much, MUCH better.
I just can't agree with that at all. Her Christmas event (wherein she decides to dress up for you) just feels incredibly dishonest and pandery, because it's predicated on Y(o)u telling her to act a certain way (speaking in a higher pitch in the ENG version, using female pronouns in the JP version). That's not how relationships work; you don't shape your partner's personality because it suits you, you accept them for who they are, warts and all. It's a huge contrast from your relationship with Chie who asks if you're okay with dating a hardcore tomboy (ofc you are). Also, there is no desire or attempt on Naoto's part to get past her insecurities like you described; she still goes back to wearing her default outfit because it makes her uncomfortable, she's just happy to show it Y(o)u. (The moving on happens in the epilogue)
Her default Christmas event is much, much, much, MUCH better.
Funyarinpa
Member
I didn't feel that way. Hell, besides simply loving every single character in the IT, I'm kinda indifferent towards Naoto, so perhaps I just didn't notice. To me it felt like there could have been more to her interactions, though.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
but with her Slink, at least in english, its not like either answer is wrong.
Screenshot from the slink: http://i.imgur.com/Veu1r7d.png
She asked for an opinion. You can pick the the cliche one on top which there is nothing wrong with, or give an opinion
And yes the Christmas event is pandery. Its Naoto pandering to Yu based on her presumptions of how she can make him happy. Naoto makes it very clear how insecure she is in her Slink, especially late in the lover's route, and starts looking looking towards her relationship as a crutch for her insecurities. Its a very common way for someone to act in a young relationship.
This is made explicitly clear on Valentine's day in golden: http://i.imgur.com/Cu8MbUc.png http://i.imgur.com/E1dvv1Z.png (And as someone who has struggled with insecurities, that first answer is the worst you can give, well actually the second one is, but dont use that first line either)
EDIT: Another valentine's screenshot showing what I'm talking about http://i.imgur.com/vLo7MCN.png
KoroEunectes
Member
I don't mind Marie that much.
She has some pretty funny lines & I liked that
Don't really love or hate her.
Anyway I'm happy that we will be getting some English P5 news soon so we don't have to repeat the PersonaGaf cycle
At least we will have something new to talk about.
She has some pretty funny lines & I liked that
they gave the Sagiri's a bit of backstory. (even though you could come to the same conclusion if you really pay attention to the dialog and the way they transform into shadows. )
Anyway I'm happy that we will be getting some English P5 news soon so we don't have to repeat the PersonaGaf cycle
At least we will have something new to talk about.
Anyway I'm happy that we will be getting some English P5 news soon so we don't have to repeat the PersonaGaf cycle
At least we will have something new to talk about.
Then when P5 finally comes out there'll be a whole new batch of characters for people to fight over!
Mediking
Member
I don't mind Marie that much.
She has some pretty funny lines & I liked thatDon't really love or hate her.they gave the Sagiri's a bit of backstory. (even though you could come to the same conclusion if you really pay attention to the dialog and the way they transform into shadows. )
Anyway I'm happy that we will be getting some English P5 news soon so we don't have to repeat the PersonaGaf cycle
At least we will have something new to talk about.
It's also like.... the people who spoiled themselves and people who imported the game are waiting for those like me who haven't so we can really discuss P5. In the meantime... we're all just having fun and trying to have a good time as February 14th draws closer and closer.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
I don't mind Marie in general, but when they tried shoving her into the main group and having her be relevant to the story it was all just really forced and bad. In stuff like PQ where she can just sit back and be a loser she's just fine, overdesigned mess or no.
I got nothing on Naoto, though. Like, I have no strong opinion of her one way or the other. She sure is a character that exists in this often questionably written video game.
I got nothing on Naoto, though. Like, I have no strong opinion of her one way or the other. She sure is a character that exists in this often questionably written video game.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
just don't watch the golden anime. I never did!
Ludger Kresnik
Member
The Golden anime is like the perfect storm of Marie awfulness. It's like they approached it with the mission of "how can we make all these random fluff scenes from the game all about Marie?" and it ended up about as well as you'd expect.
The problem isn't the answer, but how it fundamentally changes Naoto as a person. Remember, in the Japanese version Naoto asks Yu if he's bothered by her use of the male pronoun (which btw is like the cornerstone of her identity.) If you say yes, Naoto shows up in the female uniform and completely changes in personality. The stoic and measured detective becomes this stammering, blushing, wallflower literally all in an attempt to make you happier. That's trash, man. It's just a shallow, empty attempt at pandering to the waifu crowd while throwing Naoto's character under the bus. If they wanted to make a point about she's become overly dependent on him (which I heavily doubt), they would have at least elaborated on that with Naoto's Valentine's day event. And there are some legitimately good lines in that event! She questions the idea of changing herself just to make you happy, but then decides that she ultimately doesn't care and is happy with whatever answer you give her. The problem here is that she puts her growth in your hands. Her resolve to change or stay the same... it literally comes from you.
And that... that's no good.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's absolutely fine to enjoy Naoto's romance route.. I just personally think it's no good, and compounds on my issues with Naoto.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
we're going to have this back and forth every time lol.
It may be inconsistent looking at it from how she is in the main story, but even then we get an idea of how Naoto is considering shes hiding her gender not because of identity issues with herself, but insecurities based on her fear of being able to be respected in her job due to her gender.
All of her supposed confidence breaks down during the S link though (I'm pretty sure even the non romance but I dont remember that one as I only just youtubed it once a while back). Even outside of Romance shes still trying to figure out who she is and what shes doing. She forgets why shes even a detective in the first place and why she wanted to be. She figures that out without Yu's help.
This is all why I don't agree with the "Stoic measured detective becomes this stammering blushing wallflower" because it feels like as everything progresses that was always a part of the character. Everything feels like an act to hide her insecurities. So when she finds someone that she doesnt want to pull the tough guy act with anymore she tries to do shit to impress him and make him happier. Which in a way you are right, it isn't how she should be. Its a character flaw, but also why I like the character so much. Its a struggle I can understand. In the end thanks to golden epilogue, we know shes gained some of the confidence she was seeking, with or without Yu.
I of course cant comment in how it comes of in the japanese original, since I have never played that and honestly just don't care.
Forever and ever baby ♪
Anyway, I still think she totally, totally sucks as a character but I concede that there are some valid reasons to like her. I mean, i'm all about liking characters "in spite of their flaws" so I get why you're going up to bat for her.
***
As an aside, going through TiTS and i'm pretty sure Estelle is the goat because I mean jesus christ.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
this is the only argument im trying to have!
lets go get pancakes and start round two. Why Sara is better than Estelle
its super close though...
Wait, how is Marie an over designed mess? Maybe we've got wildly different standards but whenever I think of over designed characters I generally think of this fucking garbage, or Nomura's belt&zipper fetish in some of his worst works, or a lot of the Xtreme costumes from 90s era comic books. Marie in comparison just looks so tame it strikes me as odd someone would consider her to be over designed. Her clothes look like something a certain subset of girls her age might wear (or probably older, I tend to forget these young adult looking people are actually supposed to be teenagers).
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I knew instantly what this was before clicking on it, and I bet everyone else does as well
Marie dresses like my female friends in high school...(I'm sure you can figure out how I dressed based on that)
Funyarinpa
Member
ShadowSoldier89
Member
thats modern me. Trying to not wear pants n shit. High school me is how I got myself attached to such an edgy username that I cant seem to let go of
the_sun_king
Member
Marie's worst offense for me is she impedes on the role that Teddie's already fills within the narrative, having the exact same character dilemma as him. She doesn't add anything of value to the story as far as I'm concerned.
A Dead Diehard
Member
You mean like Aigis in the P3 movies?
Also, really nailed the problem with Naoto's romance, PK.