SolidSnakex
Member
Aika'svyse said:
Just like those tech demos..My oh my how fast we forget. Alot of those tech demos were either matched or topped during the PS2's launch.
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Phil Harrison - PS3 cheaper for devs that PS2, & comments on real time/rendered issue
- Thread starter sonycowboy
- Start date
Just like those tech demos..My oh my how fast we forget. Alot of those tech demos were either matched or topped during the PS2's launch.
Aika'svyse
Banned
PS2 launch my friends were telling me that PS2 games would take their virginity they were so realistic, when it didn't happen one of my friends stuck his hand in the playstation an tried to rip out the insides and he died.dark10x said:
Aika'svyse said:
Wow, just wow, idiocy knows no bounds. The truth about PS2 tech demos has been proven numerous times on this board, when the search function returns you're welcome to peruse them at your liesure and own yourself, but I haven't the time to write yet ANOTHER corrective reply to this line of thinking.
On second thought, can whoever is doing this joke character come forward please?
fortified_concept
Banned
Sal Paradise Jr said:
1) God, you sound like a viral marketeer.
2) Like I said for Ghaleon you're fast to call PS3's games FMV, yet you don't even have the slightest doubt for PGR3 and Madden even though these too look a lot more FMVed than Killzone and MotorSport.
3) With the exception of Silicon Knights which is not that big NOTHING changed from yesterday.
Aika'svyse
Banned
I bring facts so I'm not worried about getting owned. I don't care if there's 100 pages of of people saying PS2 was better than the demos because I had to see the disapointment on my friends faces when they weren't allowed to borrow my Xbox.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
teiresias said:
The thing is, there are tons of people I know who feel this way, even now, and we're talking casual gamers at best. Don't get me wrong, they're more than happy with the PS2, but in regards to what was promised/said/hyped in the very beginning, they can also admit to being disappointed. I would say arguing that the tech demos were exceeded is very much the minority stance, even if it is technically the correct one.
Outdoor Miner
Member
fortified_concept said:
We have someone on this very board working on nextgen Madden, I'm going to take his word for the product-in-question everytime. He says it looks better than... you know what? Fuck explaining this.
How's this for a viral marketeer:
No comment. *pops poster on ignore*
Spectral Glider
Member
Aika'svyse said:
Did somebody do that to you and get your funny bone in the process? Your jokes suck.
There ya go...
People WERE disappointed, that much is true. The difficulty of working on the platform made for an unimpressive first generation. No question. When developers finally got ahold of the platform, though, the quality increased massively. PS2 saw some incredible leaps forward throughout its lifetime. As you say, the TECHNICALLY CORRECT answer is that actual PS2 games have more than exceeded the original tech demos (which is absolutely NOT the case for MS and Nintendo, both of which showed tech demos that far exceed anything on the platform).
It worked out for me, as I was still a major DC fan and was loving the fact that PS2 disappointed. By the time I became fond of the platform, it was already starting to shine. Luckily, PS3 is built on a more familiar base and should prove MUCH easier for developers to use. Sony DID learn a lesson...
CrimsonSkies
Member
Only Sony can get away with this. I guarantee you on the G4 E3 special today that they will still be saying that they are unsure if those PS3 demos were real time ahah. *tips hat*
Aika'svyse
Banned
You know better, you can't own me with tech demos. what Sony is doing is like offering a hungry man a plate of plastic food. Xbox 360 is atleast offer that same man a plate with 30 percent real food.dark10x said:
WhippinSean
Banned
I read the on www.yahoo.co.jp on the news section today that Ken Kutaragi died from a heart attack early this morning. Is that even true??
Outdoor Miner
Member
dark10x said:
Don't waste your time explaining that. It's just not worth it. Certain people just remember things the way they want to, they'll never accept that the PS2 demos were beaten later in the PS2's life.
Outdoor Miner
Member
Aika'svyse said:
:lol
Man, you're asking for it.
*looks for PS3 Foreman grill pic*
Aika'svyse
Banned
It's not my jokes It's just that you lack an Emotion Engine.Spectral Glider said:
Spectral Glider
Member
Aika'svyse said:
Nope, it's just that's it's programmed to respond to something that's actually funny.
Aika'svyse
Banned
More spin :lolSpectral Glider said:
Spectral Glider
Member
Aika'svyse said:
I should have known, your jokes are only operating on 1/4th the power. Now that's funny.
CosmicGroinPull
Member
Ah, this thread is turning out to be good; I didn't think it would.
Aika'svyse
Banned
Oh crap I just got a private message from a sony fantoolSpectral Glider said:
"stop making jokes on the board or I'm going to overheat a playstation and burn down your house"
Halarious
Spectral Glider
Member
Razoric said:
Beat me to it. :lol
Phil Harrison may not have made that claim, but every Sony bot on this forum has, Sony's PR people have, the Developer failed to answer a direct question about it, and Sony folks have allowed that idea to fester by omission. Worse still, perfectly respectable press entities have spewed it back to us like it's the truth.
Many of us take one look at this stuff (from any manufacturer) and snort our derision. The problem is that lots of folks (this forum included) completely believe it. or really, really want to.
Also, the whole point of this thread, that games will be somehow cheaper to make on ANY platform this gen, is absurd. The costs are in overhead, asset generation, testing, anicillaries, licensing, support, you name it. Not two engineers trying to muddle with emotion/engine/cell.
I thought this was interesting:
I'm wondering how exactly the CPU can help the GPU. This is interesting stuff, and could open some doorways for PS3 in terms of a further graphical advantage. I guess for one, instead of the GPU indexing precomputed data for certain shaders, the CPU could be generating them in realtime and passing them over, so that certain effects aren't so limited/rigid (?)
I'm wondering how exactly the CPU can help the GPU. This is interesting stuff, and could open some doorways for PS3 in terms of a further graphical advantage. I guess for one, instead of the GPU indexing precomputed data for certain shaders, the CPU could be generating them in realtime and passing them over, so that certain effects aren't so limited/rigid (?)
The technical demos and game videos were not misrepresented at the source - the Sony PC. What was actually running on current PS3 hardware, what used Cell more or RSX more and what was just representative of target goals for PS3 games was clearly indicated. Anybody who wants to get to the bottom of this only has to go back to the source, readily available.Stinkles said:
Sony or the developers shouldn't be on the hook to set the record straight when it was set straight in the first place and was only muddled by a horde of corporate shills on both sides of the fight who have no intention of representing the situation accurately no matter how loud and often you state the facts. Take for example the people STILL popping out of the woodwork to claim that Sony's original PS2 tech demos were not indicative of final in-game performance on the system, more than 5 yrs later.
What's next - would you demand that Guerilla and SCEE take us through the next-gen KZ reel and point out exactly and exhaustively what every single onscreen object and event used game asset/code and what was rendered separately, just to try to appease the demands of fanatics who have no intention of being appeased? Yeah, that'd be great use of the dev's time...
Snorting in derision is just the opposite knee jerk reaction of those eating it up. There's no need for it. Sony provided a breath of examples in their PC that encompassed both where they are now with realtime software engines on current PS3 hardware and what their target is for future, full-fledged game software on finalized PS3 hardware. There was full disclosure of current state and future goals. Why does that deserve to be snorted in derision anymore than it should be accepted as fait accompli at this point?
There's a knock-on effect of your "two engineers" trying to muddle through a difficult/unfamiliar hardware architecture - you end up getting less efficiency out of the rest of your development resources while the engineers try to determine exactly what they can enable the game engine to do on the hardware. All other things being equal, reducing this burden on the engineers should help the rest of the development team become more efficient and produce a game more cheaply. I think that's what Harrison is referring to, that they've lowered the bar for overall development cost with the PS3 design as opposed to a more PS2-like design.
I happen not to agree with about half of what you said, but am too lazy to respond. However, would one of you journalists ask guerilla this direct question:
"Was the Killzone footage created by an external CG house?"
And also, the fact remains, PS3 games, X360 games and Revolution games will all be significantly more expensive to develop.
"Was the Killzone footage created by an external CG house?"
And also, the fact remains, PS3 games, X360 games and Revolution games will all be significantly more expensive to develop.
accord 4 me
Member
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23325
NVIDIA COULD not contain all the information about G70 forever and we finally found a way to learn some more about it.
It turns out that the G70, also known as the Geforce series 7, is going to be a very similar chip to the just announced Playstation 3 chip. We wrote about this here. Nvidia is still keeping quiet about the final spec of the chip but we know it's a 90 nanometre chip and that it's likely that it will have at least 10MB of cache memory. ATI's Xbox 360 chip has exactly the same 10MB as you need to have enough buffer to render HDTV picture quality games. That's what the new consoles are all about.
We also learned that the G70 is getting ready and that Nvidia is just a month or so away from releasing the chip. We expect that the G70 won't have 10MB of cache like its Playstation chip brother, as this is just too expensive to make at this point. ATI also has two version of the next generation chip - one called R520 for graphic cards and second codenamed R500 is Xbox 360 chip, very similar to the R520 but powered with 10MB of Edram cache memory.
The Playstation 3 chip runs at 550MHz and this can give you at least some idea about Nvidia's G70 clocks.
Stay tuned, as we believe that we can dig out even more information about this chip here at the show. µ
i dont remember reading it would have 10mb in the ps3 either
NVIDIA COULD not contain all the information about G70 forever and we finally found a way to learn some more about it.
It turns out that the G70, also known as the Geforce series 7, is going to be a very similar chip to the just announced Playstation 3 chip. We wrote about this here. Nvidia is still keeping quiet about the final spec of the chip but we know it's a 90 nanometre chip and that it's likely that it will have at least 10MB of cache memory. ATI's Xbox 360 chip has exactly the same 10MB as you need to have enough buffer to render HDTV picture quality games. That's what the new consoles are all about.
We also learned that the G70 is getting ready and that Nvidia is just a month or so away from releasing the chip. We expect that the G70 won't have 10MB of cache like its Playstation chip brother, as this is just too expensive to make at this point. ATI also has two version of the next generation chip - one called R520 for graphic cards and second codenamed R500 is Xbox 360 chip, very similar to the R520 but powered with 10MB of Edram cache memory.
The Playstation 3 chip runs at 550MHz and this can give you at least some idea about Nvidia's G70 clocks.
Stay tuned, as we believe that we can dig out even more information about this chip here at the show. µ
i dont remember reading it would have 10mb in the ps3 either
Says the guy who wants to berate Sony for not giving full enough disclosure. Disagree with me but don't specify what you disagree with and why - sounds like you're just throwing out a "target" response that's largely pre-rendered with no proof that you can achieve what you stateStinkles said:
That will depend on what their target is for overall performance for their game, wouldn't it? There's plenty of games each generation that don't aim to tap anywhere near the maximum performance the hardware allows. Not everyone is out to build the next "Triple A" game that's as much a tech demonstration as it is a blockbuster game experience with blockbuster budget.
I was geuninely too lazy. But if we assume that the minimum expectation is that games will have to look better than they do now, and run in 720p, then they will be significantly more expensive to make.
If we estimate that they will have to look as good as say, Gears of War or the Unreal tech demo, then they will be dramatically more expensive to make.
MY AGENDA IS THE TRUTH!!1 Etc.
Off topic - anyone go to the Apple booth? I had half expected some sort of announcemnt from them.
If we estimate that they will have to look as good as say, Gears of War or the Unreal tech demo, then they will be dramatically more expensive to make.
MY AGENDA IS THE TRUTH!!1 Etc.
Off topic - anyone go to the Apple booth? I had half expected some sort of announcemnt from them.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
I wont address all the usual Sony Defence Force stuff in here... but i will get this off my chest...
Here's a thought or two on this. Go and look at the demos again. I think people will agree that they were outclassed or matched by games that gen, but tell me.... What did those demos show/promise? Well, i'd say they were promising much higher poly models, nice lighting effects, better possible animations. All achieved. This time from the rolling demo of , say, Killzone they are promising MUCH MUCH more. Not only have the graphical quality gone through the roof, but we've now got animation at a significantly higher level, AI that's off the scale with people reacting perfectly to each other and the environment, perfect physics and KI on every model, partical effects up the wazzo ... but for me , it's the AI routines that were what made that rolling demo spectacular. Where they calc'ed real time? I'm going to say, no, i don't believe they are.
Now, whilst i think some of these things are achievable, some are going to way harder to achieve than you'd expect. Comparing what is being promised (?) now via what ever these are (Renders? Target Visual movies? I don't care) isn't anywhere near what was promised last time. I mean, good luck to the devs, i really hope they can get AI to the level
But "well, last time they did this and look what happened" - that's fantastic for people, but if you can't reassess the situation this time, then i guess you'd have to go back to this sort of thinking.
"What's next - would you demand that Guerilla and SCEE take us through the next-gen KZ reel and point out exactly and exhaustively what every single onscreen object and event used game asset/code and what was rendered separately, just to try to appease the demands of fanatics who have no intention of being appeased? Yeah, that'd be great use of the dev's time..."
Well, it would also appese all the fanboys who are adamant that it's all real time. There's dipshits on both side of the argument. The Xbot conspiracy theory are as embarrassing as the Sony Defence Force. The truth is somewhere in the middle, but both sides are too stupid to dig it out because there's a game of one upmanship going on. *BIG FANBOY COCK SWINGING LIGHTSABRE DUEL!*
Dev costs for both machine are going way up according to a recent survey in one of the Japanese mags (I think it might have been Dengeki). Jonnyram, any details?
I'm pretty sure that if every dev house in Japan put the dev costs for xbox 360 and PS3 as going up, then i'm pretty sure the price _IS_ going up.
So you can believe that it's cheaper if you want or not based on who is telling you what and filter out the noise and make your own mind up.
It's funny though, some of you would make great cult members.
"Welcome to the Sony Church of Kutaragi Penis Polishing and Piss Gargling sect of Happy Love and PR recantment communion of the PSP. Please take a seat infront of the alta before Father Kutaragi gives you your lastest sermon"
*Ken at the alter"
Ken : "Tha Pee-Hes-Pee's... prorbrems... are ... nat... prorbrems cause by me... it is ... most .. beautifu.... deesine........... and.... probrem lie with..... deveropment communeeteee ... and ... with.... za usaa...."
All : "Amen"
Sony PR - coding humans is our thang!
(yes, i know Xbox fans have thier equivalent - but i couldn't find a picture of Michael Stipe,
rumaging through a charity shop to get his clothes whilst lying down in a "hey baby" pose . So the "Xbot Parish of Cool for the terminally uncool BILLION MEMBER party of the Zen goddess of massive letdowns" parody will have to wait.
Personally, I think i'm just gonna wait for the next PR sheet to come from the Xbot equivalent of the SDF base and i'll retrofit my arguements to that spec because the retard party that's in full swing at the moment just seems to good to miss.
Here's a thought or two on this. Go and look at the demos again. I think people will agree that they were outclassed or matched by games that gen, but tell me.... What did those demos show/promise? Well, i'd say they were promising much higher poly models, nice lighting effects, better possible animations. All achieved. This time from the rolling demo of , say, Killzone they are promising MUCH MUCH more. Not only have the graphical quality gone through the roof, but we've now got animation at a significantly higher level, AI that's off the scale with people reacting perfectly to each other and the environment, perfect physics and KI on every model, partical effects up the wazzo ... but for me , it's the AI routines that were what made that rolling demo spectacular. Where they calc'ed real time? I'm going to say, no, i don't believe they are.
Now, whilst i think some of these things are achievable, some are going to way harder to achieve than you'd expect. Comparing what is being promised (?) now via what ever these are (Renders? Target Visual movies? I don't care) isn't anywhere near what was promised last time. I mean, good luck to the devs, i really hope they can get AI to the level
But "well, last time they did this and look what happened" - that's fantastic for people, but if you can't reassess the situation this time, then i guess you'd have to go back to this sort of thinking.
"What's next - would you demand that Guerilla and SCEE take us through the next-gen KZ reel and point out exactly and exhaustively what every single onscreen object and event used game asset/code and what was rendered separately, just to try to appease the demands of fanatics who have no intention of being appeased? Yeah, that'd be great use of the dev's time..."
Well, it would also appese all the fanboys who are adamant that it's all real time. There's dipshits on both side of the argument. The Xbot conspiracy theory are as embarrassing as the Sony Defence Force. The truth is somewhere in the middle, but both sides are too stupid to dig it out because there's a game of one upmanship going on. *BIG FANBOY COCK SWINGING LIGHTSABRE DUEL!*
Dev costs for both machine are going way up according to a recent survey in one of the Japanese mags (I think it might have been Dengeki). Jonnyram, any details?
I'm pretty sure that if every dev house in Japan put the dev costs for xbox 360 and PS3 as going up, then i'm pretty sure the price _IS_ going up.
So you can believe that it's cheaper if you want or not based on who is telling you what and filter out the noise and make your own mind up.
It's funny though, some of you would make great cult members.
"Welcome to the Sony Church of Kutaragi Penis Polishing and Piss Gargling sect of Happy Love and PR recantment communion of the PSP. Please take a seat infront of the alta before Father Kutaragi gives you your lastest sermon"
*Ken at the alter"
Ken : "Tha Pee-Hes-Pee's... prorbrems... are ... nat... prorbrems cause by me... it is ... most .. beautifu.... deesine........... and.... probrem lie with..... deveropment communeeteee ... and ... with.... za usaa...."
All : "Amen"
Sony PR - coding humans is our thang!
(yes, i know Xbox fans have thier equivalent - but i couldn't find a picture of Michael Stipe,
rumaging through a charity shop to get his clothes whilst lying down in a "hey baby" pose . So the "Xbot Parish of Cool for the terminally uncool BILLION MEMBER party of the Zen goddess of massive letdowns" parody will have to wait.
Personally, I think i'm just gonna wait for the next PR sheet to come from the Xbot equivalent of the SDF base and i'll retrofit my arguements to that spec because the retard party that's in full swing at the moment just seems to good to miss.
sonycowboy
Member
DCharlie said:
I thought it was pretty clear that the dev costs they were referring to was more of the "programmer efficiency" side as opposed to the content creation side. There's no doubt that the cost of games are going up as the content creation had exploded like crazy. Modeling hundreds of characters individually, terrain, buildings, textures, car models, etc, etc are much much more exacting and demand a much greater level of detail.
SolidSnakex
Member
Lazy8s said:
