The first town in Icewind Dale 2 was fantastic.
I'm hoping for a Returns - Dragonfall kinda improvement with the expansion. With Obsidian free to do what they want and not having any promises to backers to keep they should be able to improve on PoE.
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Pillars of Eternity |OT| You must gather your party before venturing forth.
- Thread starter EviLore
- Start date
The first town in Icewind Dale 2 was fantastic.
I'm hoping for a Returns - Dragonfall kinda improvement with the expansion. With Obsidian free to do what they want and not having any promises to backers to keep they should be able to improve on PoE.
I like your icon
mechanic increases the trap accuracy
which makes it somewhat more useful than pretty much every other skill in the game currently. My complete party is made up of semi-athletic master mechanics
justsomeguy
Member
I don't think so. I was able to set traps with all my party members
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Now is about when the amazement of Pillars existing starts to wear off and people start turning a more critical eye toward it. It's interesting to see how many of the issues people have had with more recent RPGs are still present here.
Race selection ultimately doesn't mean anything in a role-playing sense.
Self enchanted weapons are better than legendary, specifically named items.
You will still end up with a ton of trash loot from even high level dungeons.
The day and night cycle is basically a color palette swap and the vast majority of characters and experiences serve solely to be info dumps about the world.
Skills are largely useless, especially for non-PC. And you have to end up either dumping points into a useless skill for your character or simply not using those points. My spellcaster has points in stealth because there are only so many points you can put into Lore and Athletics, for example.
The game is still absolutely amazing, mind you. But now that they have the engine, know how to use it and aren't under the pressures of making the game That Is Going To Resurrect cRPGs, they can really focus on making PoE2 the BG2 of its era.
Race selection ultimately doesn't mean anything in a role-playing sense.
Self enchanted weapons are better than legendary, specifically named items.
You will still end up with a ton of trash loot from even high level dungeons.
The day and night cycle is basically a color palette swap and the vast majority of characters and experiences serve solely to be info dumps about the world.
Skills are largely useless, especially for non-PC. And you have to end up either dumping points into a useless skill for your character or simply not using those points. My spellcaster has points in stealth because there are only so many points you can put into Lore and Athletics, for example.
The game is still absolutely amazing, mind you. But now that they have the engine, know how to use it and aren't under the pressures of making the game That Is Going To Resurrect cRPGs, they can really focus on making PoE2 the BG2 of its era.
I know some would scream bloody murder, but I personally think most RPGs would be very much improved if they got rid of most of the loot drops. It is probably one of the reasons I love Shadowrun: Returns/Dragonfall and one of the things I liked in Mass Effect 2. They weren't swarmed with garbage items and I think the games were better for it.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I don't like there being no loot, but I like when loot feels special. I single-handedly put every shield maker across Dyrwood out of business. Loot is primarily the way they work with vendors and whatnot, because you've got to get money somehow, so I'm cool with loot systems in general. But it feels just as bad in Pillars to delve a dungeon and end up with some veggies and a level appropriate generic sword as it did in Oblivion. That's a RPG relic I'll be happy to see go one day. Maybe in PoE2?
I agree, I don't mind the odd bit of unique items but the amount of loot in most RPGs is too much for my liking. The thing about the ME2 and 3 loot is that you could play the game with only using weapons and armour you had from the start didn't need to constantly be getting better stuff to keep up with the enemies you faced. ME1 on the other hand had you upgrading armour and weapons so much it detracted from my enjoyment of the game.
The thing is, PoE has far better loot than either of those games, simply because it has unique items with lore backgrounds. Those are amazing.
It also has tons and tons of basic drops, which, like in the IE games, serve mostly as a money source and believability thing ("why can't I take the armor of those guys with me?"). I agree that doesn't add much to the game, but I also don't have a problem with it.
I can't even imagine how such that degree of improvement would be possible for PoE really (SR: Returns was really average and held up by its great writing and setting, so a lot of improvement was possible. PoE is already fantastic), but it would certainly be nice.
I will agree that some loot can be fun, but that most games fail at that. If developers want to have at the end of the dungeon The Legendary Sword of Badassness then I can live with that. The problem I have is that on your way to getting that sword you end up with dozens of items that are only good for selling. Which is just another repetitive thing you have to do every time you are in town. What I would like is for developers to give you money instead of generic loot so you can cut out a trip or just make the quest payments more substantial then they are in 99 percent of games to make up for the lack of income from selling trash swords and armor.
Well I am willing to compromise. Keep the unique loot and cut out the generic stuff possibly by using the methods I suggested above. Besides those who complain about not being able to loot everything or that instant selling of items isn't realistic(while ignoring that carrying dozens of suits of armor, weapons, etc at once is just as unrealistic) nothing of value will be lost.
Yeah I would be okay if more RPG developers switched over to a system like this, especially in games like PoE when you basically have unlimited inventory space.
Sometimes you might actually want a certain basic weapon type (there's exactly one mace I've encountered as a barbarian early and it seems to be the best weapon for them), but in general I like that sort of streamlining.
I think about that when I run into one of the game mechanics. OK, I'm in town. I want an item so I have to run to one side of the town (and wait on the autosave + load screen). Now I need to rest so I have to run to the other side of the town (and wait on the autosave + load screen). Now I want to leave town, so I jump to the map, jump to the nearest map edge, use double speed, and wait until I'm in range of a map edge icon before I can leave...even if I've already explored that exit.
I have every requirement game-balance-wise to use a certain exit, or pay a certain amount of gold to rest, but I have to spend chunks of time just waiting on travel / saving / loading to carry out the actual busy work I'm trying to do. I've heard this gets even more annoying with load screens later (
trying to rest or do stuff at the stronghold
I understand for immersion it's presumably nice to have to run to a town exit, or physically walk into an inn, but there are a variety of other things that don't make too much sense from an immersion perspective. Why do rangers who've been hunters their whole lives not know how to camp without buying new equipment every night? Why can't they camp in a town, if they want to? Why does no one ever go to sleep in town? How does equipment I pick up in a dungeon magically teleport itself to a "stash"?
The answer to these things of course is "it's easier this way" or "it wouldn't be fun otherwise" etc., to which I would reply...it would be nice if the inn had a drive-through window, and you could travel straight out of towns via the map as long as the town isn't hunting you.
Well, if you play on Expert you can't carry all those shields and swords
Well, if you play on Expert you can't carry all those shields and swords
?
I'm playing on expert and I can equip an entire army with my loot stash
I've heard my character complain multiple times with the voice line about things being too heavy, or needing to clean out inventory, but I haven't found any sort of penalty for it so I just drag stuff to the stash (even on expert path of the damned).
Of course my character also complains about poison like 6 times in a single battle, or complains IT'S NOT WORKING when they successfully use an ability. They may just be complainy.
Of course my character also complains about poison like 6 times in a single battle, or complains IT'S NOT WORKING when they successfully use an ability. They may just be complainy.
Doesn't expert mode force the town-only stash option?
(That's actually how it was initially designed, as a "stash" and not as the infinite bag of holding that it is without that option. Personally, I don't use the setting because I'm too old for inventory management, and too set in my ways to not return to town every time I've picked up 20 pieces of trash loot
)It's still an infinite bag of holding, just a one-way bag. You can loot a billion suits of armor and they magically teleport to your stash from the dungeon. Note that I am perfectly okay with this over the more realistic option of say, Skyrim, where I trudge back and forth slowly carrying armor to town to sell.
Ah, I see. I thought that option enables the original design. Strange that they didn't include an option for that then.
There isn't the "every 20 minutes a better weapon of the same type" progression of loot games in this. There are 4 basic tiers (standard, fine, exceptional, superb) and as you say there are named items and enchantments. Generally, the best you can do at most points in the game is adding additional enchantments to named unique items, at least that's what I have found.
If you want to play really optimally, you'll need to change weapon type depending on the enemy armour type(s). Otherwise, a weapon with 2 damage classes is preferable.
fine weapons and armor are better than normal versions, exceptional items are better than fine items
fine weapons have +4 accuracy and deal slightly more damage, fine armor has +2 damage reduction. Named and enchanted items usually have more enhancements, but a plain exceptional weapon can be better than a magic fine weapon for example
Yes but for example, Cipher starts as a dual wielding estoc user, and I stayed like that since you seem to want attack speed. Just asking if this was the optimal use case or there are weapon combinations better for this.
I usually trade with a bow for encounters where my Cipher is too squishy, which again, might not be optimal.
The weapons your Cipher starts with depends on his background. I made my Cipher ranged so I can't help you with the melee weapons but if you want a ranged weapon as backup go blunderbuss instead of bow.
it gives you fastest attack speed, yeah
I found dual-wielding to be the hardest weapon style to justify using.
- Two-handed weapons seem to deal the most damage (assuming that you're hitting reliably), and do the best job at punching through high DR.
- Weapon and Shield is slow, weak, and inaccurate, but the massive Deflection bonus makes it a no-brainer for your tank.
- One-handed can end up dealing the most damage against high-Deflection enemies, especially if you take the talent that converts Grazes to Hits.
Dual-wielding's only real advantage seems to be that you'll make more swings over a given period of time, but I can't actually think of very many useful things that proc per-hit, except DR, and that's obviously not useful for the dual-wielder. I think it's just Interrupts and Cipher Focus generation, unless I missed something big.
- Two-handed weapons seem to deal the most damage (assuming that you're hitting reliably), and do the best job at punching through high DR.
- Weapon and Shield is slow, weak, and inaccurate, but the massive Deflection bonus makes it a no-brainer for your tank.
- One-handed can end up dealing the most damage against high-Deflection enemies, especially if you take the talent that converts Grazes to Hits.
Dual-wielding's only real advantage seems to be that you'll make more swings over a given period of time, but I can't actually think of very many useful things that proc per-hit, except DR, and that's obviously not useful for the dual-wielder. I think it's just Interrupts and Cipher Focus generation, unless I missed something big.
God I had the field triage ability on 4 characters and every time you use it this line plays
IT IS FUCKING WORKING
Played a lot of the game tonight. It's still not quite clicking with me, neither the gameplay or the world building. Some of the companions are interesting and the game looks gorgeous (I love pre-rendered backgrounds) but I feel like I'm playing the game because I backed it a couple of years ago, as opposed to because I'm really enjoying it.
Worse (for me, at least), I'm finding the music incredibly distracting. Putting the battle music aside (which is obviously modeled off of BG/BGII), the wilderness and dungeon music is *very* inspired by Howard Shore's work on LotR and The Hobbit, to the point of plagiarism in places. The piece that plays
in the prologue is a near-copy of the Ringwraith music and I heard a major motif from the Hobbit films pop up in Caed Nua. Even the more original music still sounds like it could have come straight out of those movies, so closely does this composer adhere to Shore's sound. I don't generally expect originality in this genre of game but I'd like to be able to play it without thinking that I'm on a journey to Mordor.
Worse (for me, at least), I'm finding the music incredibly distracting. Putting the battle music aside (which is obviously modeled off of BG/BGII), the wilderness and dungeon music is *very* inspired by Howard Shore's work on LotR and The Hobbit, to the point of plagiarism in places. The piece that plays
while you're escaping the Biawac
If we consider weapon & small shield the norm, the "no penalty state", then dual-wielding makes you attack at roughly 1.3x the rate you normally do, and going 1-handed gives a +12 accuracy bonus
The issue with dual-wielding is that if your damage with sword&board was crap, then with dual-wielding it'll still inevitably be crap because your DPS is increased with such a way that DR is still a hindrance
Against enemies with deflection relatively similar to your accuracy with buckler, 1-handed accuracy bonus increases your damage by roughly 12-18% of your standard damage before DR. math comes from +12 accuracy generally affecting 24-36 of your rolls from a 100.
If in some case your land a 10 damage hit on 10 DR enemy, resulting in 2 damage (20% is minimum), turning that into 15 damage crit, resulting in 5 damage, buffed the damage by 150%. Or maybe if that 10 damage hit was a graze, then turning it into 20 damage hit, resulting in 10 damage dealt to enemy, increased it by 400%
So unless you have a talent that justifies relying on pure speed, I just can not recommend dual-wielding over 1-handing
Can't agree, because I really do not like Elder Scrolls/ Fallout 3 armor system.
Now, a mix of both a la early Fallouts on other hand, that I like.
Allows low level dagger pokes to not really harm you, while allowing the armor to still do something against monsters with average damage up in the 30s or higher. Currently that heavy plated armor harms you far more than it helps you when the DR barely makes the monstrous hits hurt any less. Much smoother protection curve
Now, a mix of both a la early Fallouts on other hand, that I like.
Allows low level dagger pokes to not really harm you, while allowing the armor to still do something against monsters with average damage up in the 30s or higher. Currently that heavy plated armor harms you far more than it helps you when the DR barely makes the monstrous hits hurt any less. Much smoother protection curve
Through most of the early game on Path of the Damned, most of the enemies that are going to give you trouble are going to have Deflection scores that are a good 30-40 points higher than your Accuracy. When half of your hits are dealing zero damage because they miss, and only 10% or so actually deal full damage, having the extra 10 accuracy constitutes something like a 30% increase in actual damage - if you have the one-handed talent that converts Grazes to Hits, it's closer to a 50% increase.
Even when you aren't at an accuracy disadvantage, it still works out to about a 20% overall boost, closer to 30% with the one-handed talent.
It might not be better than a different style, depending on the situation, but it's definitely not useless.
Nah, percentage-based damage reduction is a horrible game mechanic, unless it's used in conjunction with other mechanics.
If it's just percentage-based, then the best weapon in a given situation is the best weapon in every situation, because it's simply a matter of which produces the best overall DPS. Flat reduction generally leads to much more interesting play, because you can have, say, weapons that deal high amounts of raw damage to low-armoured enemies, that are basically useless against heavily-armoured enemies, weapons that are the opposite, weapons that strike a balance in case you're fighting a mix of enemies, etc. I don't know if I feel like PoE managed to really get that exactly right (and on PotD at least it's definitely skewed toward high-DR enemies, making the faster/weaker weapons pretty poor), but they had the right idea, at least.
The fast weapons do have an advantage, in my opinion, that's not usually clear but can put them over average and slow attack styles in the long run.
Past character generation, it is much easier to stack different kinds of damage and accuracy buffs/upgrades/talents, than it is to improve attack speed.
Sagani, while using a hunting bow, honestly shouldn't be doing that high DPS, but giving her an especially damaging one, improving her accuracy in general and against specific enemy types, and giving a talent that makes Wounding Shot buff all attack damage done by Sagani on the target by 50%, she might as well be using a pistol or a crossbow but with much much much higher speed, because her average damage has risen above the point where DR is generally an issue.
So fast attack styles can triumph, but it's a long damage-stacking process with a very lackluster beginning. If you want to be a little more versatile and/or defensive then you need slower, damaging attacks. Before DR is taken into consideration, fast attack weapons/styles have much higher DPS in general. DR kinda messes it up until you've stacked enough damage on your dual-wielded dagger attacks to punch through it.
Past character generation, it is much easier to stack different kinds of damage and accuracy buffs/upgrades/talents, than it is to improve attack speed.
Sagani, while using a hunting bow, honestly shouldn't be doing that high DPS, but giving her an especially damaging one, improving her accuracy in general and against specific enemy types, and giving a talent that makes Wounding Shot buff all attack damage done by Sagani on the target by 50%, she might as well be using a pistol or a crossbow but with much much much higher speed, because her average damage has risen above the point where DR is generally an issue.
So fast attack styles can triumph, but it's a long damage-stacking process with a very lackluster beginning. If you want to be a little more versatile and/or defensive then you need slower, damaging attacks. Before DR is taken into consideration, fast attack weapons/styles have much higher DPS in general. DR kinda messes it up until you've stacked enough damage on your dual-wielded dagger attacks to punch through it.
texhnolyze
Banned
What's with Sagani and her constant yawning?
My party have just took a rest 5 minutes ago and she's fatigued already. Is my Sagani bugged?
My party have just took a rest 5 minutes ago and she's fatigued already. Is my Sagani bugged?
0 athletic skill, I have/had the same issue
well, with %-based damage reduction you can actually have weapons that are particularly effective against heavy armor, for example. Currently 5 armor penetration is practically identical to 5 extra damage
e: I get that with, flat damage reduction, you can have a similar effect with weapons that have higher dps but lower damage per hit, but this seems to be more difficult to balance properly. That would require many more meatbag-type enemies with lots of hp and almost no armor, and most of the time tougher enemies and bosses tend to have a very high damage reduction at least in this game
Se7enSword
Banned
texhnolyze
Banned
I see.
That explains a lot then, as I invested athletics to all of my party members but her. Ok, what to do now..
Lol yeah.
I remember that line.
That explains a lot then, as I invested athletics to all of my party members but her. Ok, what to do now..
It took herfor a reason.5 years
Lol yeah.
I remember that line.
Yeah, just put 1-3 point in her Athletics. After that the returns diminish so quickly that it's downright hilarious
Shake Appeal
Member
It does!
Click the line the spell appears upon and it will dropdown the individual rolls. You can mouse over each of these to see what happened.
Se7enSword
Banned
Just managed to beat the game!
Thaos was much easier than Adra Dragon. I initially had difficulty with Thaos, but went back and finished od nua and most of the quests. My equipment was pretty much the same as last time too, I just utilized my team more efficiently this time thanks to my experience with adra dragon. I made a lot of paralyze and maelstrom scrolls but in the end I didn't need to use them as much as I anticipated.
It wasn't expert mode or anything as it was my first foray to a game like this. I really had a lot of fun and enjoyed it all the way. In my next playthrough I'll definitely try to solo it and possibly opt for a druid instead of a paladin. Kinda disappointed that Paladins were pretty mediocre, oh well!
It wasn't expert mode or anything as it was my first foray to a game like this. I really had a lot of fun and enjoyed it all the way. In my next playthrough I'll definitely try to solo it and possibly opt for a druid instead of a paladin. Kinda disappointed that Paladins were pretty mediocre, oh well!
Aah, I let this one slip!
The X amount of armor penetration is only identical to +X damage when the blow that struck originally had at least 1.25 times enemy armor in damage before DR. When the blow is weaker than that, penetration improves your damage less, although can still be percentually significant if the damage was somewhere just a little under the DR.
When 10 damage blow goes against 10 DR, with +5 Penetration, the damage increased from 2 to 5.
10DMG - 10DR = 0 ==> MIN 2.0
10DMG - (10DR - 5PEN) = 5 ==> 5
Or let's say you roll really badly in both damage an accuracy and get 4 damage graze against 10 DR. With +5 penetration the damage changes from 0.8 to, umm... 0.8. Yeah, no actual change.
4DMG - 10DR = -6 ==> MIN 0.8
4DMG - (10DR - 5PEN) = -1 ==> MIN 0.8
Man, I'm in a weird number crunchy mood today.
The X amount of armor penetration is only identical to +X damage when the blow that struck originally had at least 1.25 times enemy armor in damage before DR. When the blow is weaker than that, penetration improves your damage less, although can still be percentually significant if the damage was somewhere just a little under the DR.
When 10 damage blow goes against 10 DR, with +5 Penetration, the damage increased from 2 to 5.
10DMG - 10DR = 0 ==> MIN 2.0
10DMG - (10DR - 5PEN) = 5 ==> 5
Or let's say you roll really badly in both damage an accuracy and get 4 damage graze against 10 DR. With +5 penetration the damage changes from 0.8 to, umm... 0.8. Yeah, no actual change.
4DMG - 10DR = -6 ==> MIN 0.8
4DMG - (10DR - 5PEN) = -1 ==> MIN 0.8
Man, I'm in a weird number crunchy mood today.
Haunted
Member
I don't think the level cap is too low. Completionists that do everything as soon as it's available and make sure to 100% every single sidequest can not complain about hitting the cap early, imo.
I do explore every location, but only engage in the sidequests that are engaging/interesting and, more importantly, make sense for my character. I've finished Act 2 (great climax, btw) and I'm close to level 8 and fully upgraded the stronghold - most encounters are challenging enough at my difficulty level and the balancing seems absolutely fine.
If you min/max, you reap what you sow.
I do explore every location, but only engage in the sidequests that are engaging/interesting and, more importantly, make sense for my character. I've finished Act 2 (great climax, btw) and I'm close to level 8 and fully upgraded the stronghold - most encounters are challenging enough at my difficulty level and the balancing seems absolutely fine.
If you min/max, you reap what you sow.
touche
at higher levels the difference is kind of irrelevant, though
I still stand by my opinion that the the armor/chance-to-hit system is really weird
oh, and I just checked the Obsidian forum and apparently I'm not the only one who doesn't know how you make the monk class work