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[Stereogatari]

PKK. ISIS. What's the difference? Same cowardly tactics.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33750803

Two Turkish security troops have been killed and 24 wounded in a suicide attack by Kurdish PKK militants, the regional governor's office says.

A tractor laden with explosives was driven at a military police station, reports by Turkish media say.

The attack happened near the town of Dogubayazit in Agri province, close to Turkey's border with Iran.

Since 24 July, Turkey has carried out hundreds of air raids on PKK bases on both sides of the Iraq-Turkey border.

The Turkish state news agency, Anadolu, said that the attack happened at around 03:00 local time (00:00 GMT).

It said that the tractor was carrying two tons of explosives that were detonated by a suicide bomber.

Images in the Turkish press showed a badly-damaged building with the roof destroyed.

The regional governor did not say how the PKK had been identified as the group behind the blast. The PKK has not commented.

AFP said it would be the first time the PKK was accused of deploying a suicide bomber during recent clashes.

Turkey says the group was behind a number of attacks in the last two weeks:

On Sunday, a Turkish soldier was killed and four others hurt when a mine exploded under their convoy in the south-east of the country
On Friday, five people died when a police station and a railway line were targeted
On Thursday, three troops died in the southern Sirnak province after gunmen opened fire on their convoy

Turkey's official news agency says about 260 Kurdish fighters have been killed in strikes in northern Iraq and Turkey since 24 July. It has also targeted positions held by the Islamic State group.

Further Turkish air raids were reported early on Saturday, this time in the Rawanduz area east of Erbil, capital of Iraq's Kurdish region.

At least six people were killed and several more wounded in the town of Zarkel, local officials said. They reportedly included at least two women.

Turkey considers both the PKK and IS terrorist organisations.

The PKK was established in 1978 and called for an independent state within Turkey - a country that now has 15m Kurds.

In 1984, the group began an armed struggle.

Since then, more than 40,000 people have been killed and hundreds of thousands displaced, but in 2012, the government and PKK began peace talks and the following year a ceasefire was agreed.

BBC are very stupid in equating PKK with Turkish Kurds. It's a marginal group within the Kurdish demographic:

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Well that's fucked up.

I recall some people defending this group. That's a shame.

 

[Kenshin001]

Kind of odd considering they've never used suicide bombers before. I wouldn't compare them to ISIS, they are more like Hamas or Hezbollah.

 

[Buzzman]

Well that's fucked up.

I recall some people defending this group. That's a shame.

How is attacking the military that's bombing you "fucked up" exactly.

 

[Patrick S.]

The world is shit.

 

[A.D. Skinner]

People mix this all up. You don't defend the PKK, they are a terrorist group and as every other group, do not represent all Kurds.

 

[fanboi]

How is attacking the military that's bombing you "fucked up" exactly.

Didn't they bomb a police station?

And suicide bombings isn't the same to me.

Edit: ah military police station, read it wrong.

 

[Polari]

BBC are very stupid in equating PKK with Turkish Kurds. It's a marginal group within the Kurdish demographic:

This shit is so confusing.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

How is attacking the military that's bombing you "fucked up" exactly.

What's not fucked up about it?

Turkey considers them a terrorist group, aren't they in their right to bomb them and diminish their operating capacity? What gives the terrorist group to attack a military police station?

 

[Chariot]

Well that's fucked up.

I recall some people defending this group. That's a shame.

The isses with the PKK aren't that simple. They are and were always certainly terrorists, they are marked as such by most western countries for years, however they are quite different to ISIS. ISIS wants everbody dead, the PKK wants Kurdistan be free from Turkey. They are separatists, not religious fanatics. Funnily enough they have a better treatment of women than the states they fight.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Didn't they bomb a police station?

And suicide bombings isn't the same to me.

Edit: ah military police station, read it wrong.

Well, I suppose if they would have an air force, they would answer the air attacks with their own air attacks... alas, they don't have that possibility.

Of course, I understand these type of attacks are a signal of a guerilla group going down the slippery slope to terrorist group, but you have to understand the world isn't easy and clearcut, you can't separate good and evil.

From the wiki

The European Union Court of First Instance has reviewed and removed its status as terrorist organisation on 3. April 2008

It may change if there are more attacks of this type.

 

[MisterFalcon]

PKK. ISIS. What's the difference? Same cowardly tactics.

ISIS would have blown up a hotel full of tourists in Antalya and sunk the economy.

 

[Stereogatari]

Kind of odd considering they've never used suicide bombers before. I wouldn't compare them to ISIS, they are more like Hamas or Hezbollah.

Not recently, but in the 90s they did it regularly.

This shit is so confusing.

Rrminds me of this:

 

[Linkyn]

What's not fucked up about it?

Turkey considers them a terrorist group, aren't they in their right to bomb them and diminish their operating capacity? What gives the terrorist group to attack a military police station?

Edit: Thanks for calling me out, Stereogatari.

 

[michaelius]

Looks like BBC made mistake with air raids arrow.

Turkey is bombing PKK and only doing a few token air raids against ISIS as smoke cover.


Also considering Turkish Air Forces killed over 200 kurds in air attacks it's safe to say which side broken 3 year ceasfire first.

 

[Stereogatari]

I'm not trying to defend their actions (because despite iall, violence should never be the answer), but to be fair, the peace process ended after Turkish air strikes against PKK camps.

No, it ended after PKK called Turkish police emergency number and killed the cops that responded to the call.

Looks like BBC made mistake with air raids arrow.

Turkey is bombing PKK and only doing a few token air raids against ISIS as smoke cover.

The isses with the PKK aren't that simple. They are and were always certainly terrorists, they are marked as such by most western countries for years, however they are quite different to ISIS. ISIS wants everbody dead, the PKK wants Kurdistan be free from Turkey. They are separatists, not religious fanatics. Funnily enough they have a better treatment of women than the states they fight.

The average Kurdish women doesn't have more freedom than the average Turkish woman.


Also considering Turkish Air Forces killed over 200 kurds in air attacks it's safe to say which side broken 3 year ceasfire first.

People that share your opinion are all brainwashed.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Reading more in the wiki

In 2013 the Turkish Government and the jailed PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan started a new process regarding the Kurdish question. On 21 March 2013, Öcalan announced the end of armed struggle and a ceasefire with peace talks.[36][83] On July 25, 2015, The PKK finally cancelled their 2013 ceasefire after a year of tension due to various events when the Turks bombed their positions in Iraq,[84] in the midst of their defense against ISIS.

So there was a ceasefire but it seems Turkey broke it first, using the fact the PKK was tied fighting against ISIS?

Military speaking, it makes sense. Morally speaking... well, I suppose it doesn't matter, for them it's the enemy.

 

[Buzzman]

What's not fucked up about it?

Turkey considers them a terrorist group, aren't they in their right to bomb them and diminish their operating capacity? What gives the terrorist group to attack a military police station?

I don't know, what gave the FSA the right to attack the Syrian Armed Forces?

"Rights" in these kinds of conflicts don't really mean much at all.

 

[Linkyn]

No, it ended after PKK called Turkish police emergency number and killed the cops that responded to the call.

You're right, I got my chronology twisted (I mixed up the outrage after Suruc and the air strikes). That aside, the whole situation is just a complete mess, and neither side is blameless. Maybe coordinated secession could have helped, but it seems unlikely that the Kurdish problem could ever be solved without all involved countries yielding part of their territory.

 

[Kenshin001]

This shit is so confusing.

The OP said PKK. ISIS. What's the difference? Yet both Turkey and ISIS are fighting the PKK. I'd say the PKK started it by blaming Turkey for the Suruc bombing and killing two police officers. Turkey has done nothing but bomb the PKK ever since though, killing civilians.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

The isses with the PKK aren't that simple. They are and were always certainly terrorists, they are marked as such by most western countries for years, however they are quite different to ISIS. ISIS wants everbody dead, the PKK wants Kurdistan be free from Turkey. They are separatists, not religious fanatics. Funnily enough they have a better treatment of women than the states they fight.

I don't know enough about the PKK to comment on their treatment of women, but that shouldn't really be the focus.

A terrorist group launched an attack against Turkey and we have people defending the group and this attack. Weird as hell.

I'm not trying to defend their actions (because despite all, violence should never be the answer), but to be fair, the peace process ended after Turkish air strikes against PKK camps.

That doesn't really give them the right to launch suicide attacks.

I don't know, what gave the FSA the right to attack the Syrian Armed Forces?

"Rights" in these kinds of conflicts don't really mean much at all.

I'm not sure I follow.

So you're saying that if you're attacked, you're free to respond? So that gives any terrorist attack against Western military targets, in their home countries, legitimacy?

 

[Kenshin001]

Not recently, but in the 90s they did it regularly.


Rrminds me of this:

Ah, my mistake. I guess they are returning to their old habits then. It's a real mess. On top of an even bigger mess. I thought Turkey's involvement would be a good thing but it has just complicated things more.

 

[jakonovski]

What's not fucked up about it?

Turkey considers them a terrorist group, aren't they in their right to bomb them and diminish their operating capacity? What gives the terrorist group to attack a military police station?

That argument relies on Turkey having the right to name someone a terrorist group and then kill them without fear of retaliation. Which is of course complete nonsense and makes the concept of right divorced from physical reality simply by being completely inapplicable to actual events..

 

[Chariot]

People that share your opinion are all brainwashed.

I take that. Not that deep into turkish issues. It coudl very well be that I am mislead by what I heard. And don't forget, I agree that the PKK are terrorists. My point was that they are not the kind of ISIS. Terrorists aren't terrorists and it's important to make the distinction between the different kinds.

I don't know enough about the PKK to comment on their treatment of women, but that shouldn't really be the focus.

A terrorist group launched an attack against Turkey and we have people defending the group and this attack. Weird as hell.

True. This was an cowardly act of terror and should condemned either way. It's also true though, that turkey broke the cease fire with this not very covered attempt of trying to look like fighting ISIS.

 

[funkypie]

lets be clear here, turkey deserves it. They pretend to bomb ISIS when in reality they are using the current conflict as an excuse to kill kurds.

and the PKK targeted a military structure

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Rrminds me of this:

In the Middle East, the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy. This is why everyone is fighting ISIS but no one can defeat ISIS because they're also fighting each other at the same time.

 

[jakonovski]

Also let's not fool ourselves, this is an ethnic conflict that has been going on for decades. Turkey plain hates Kurds and vice versa.

No civilized sides here.

 

[Klossen]

I hope a mod takes a look at OP's post history and realizes his posting is nothing short of Turkish propaganda. OP was absent on making a thread when the Turkish air force were killing Kurdish civilians just recently.

 

[daniels]

This does not come out of the blue, Erdogan is also to blame.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/melikka...gan-pushes-turkey-toward-chaos-and-despotism/

 

[Lord Virgin]

lets be clear here, turkey deserves it. They pretend to bomb ISIS when in reality they are using the current conflict as an excuse to kill kurds.

and the PKK targeted a military structure

Euhm what....they weren't killing Kurds. Their target was and always will be PKK afaik.

Also, by your logic every country on earth deserves the same to be done to them and even more.

 

[funkypie]

Yeah, the tons of innocent civilians in the past sure deserved it as well.
Guess you have people of all kinds on GAF.

i'm talking about this one incident. Though how many innocent kurd civilians has turkey killed?

Euhm what....they weren't killing Kurds. Their target was and always will be PKK afaik.

Also, by your logic every country on earth deserves the same to be done to them and even more.

really because one of turkeys most recent air strikes left 9 dead in a kurdish village.

 

[daniels]

Euhm what....they weren't killing Kurds. Their target was and always will be PKK afaik.

Also, by your logic every country on earth deserves the same to be done to them and even more.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/01/mideast-crisis-turkey-iraq-idUSL5N10C0B520150801

http://anfenglish.com/kurdistan/footage-of-turkish-airstrikes-against-civilians-in-kandil

 

[Haribi]

Get your facts straight people. Turkey didn't break the ceasefire. It was the PKK that started killing innocent police officers following the suicide attack in suruc (which was done by a religious Kurd last I heard). Turkey reacted by bombing PKK camps. Of course the bombing of the village is to be comdemned but also surely not done on purpose
Both sides need to stop their attacks or the killings will just go on with no resolution in sight. Although I'm not sure you can have peace in Turkey with the PKK.
Not only is it a terrorist group, it also operates as a sort of mafia organisation in the cities. Here in Germany kurdish business owners generally have to pay protection money to the PKK.

 

[daniels]

Get your facts straight people. Turkey didn't break the ceasefire. It was the PKK that started killing innocent police officers following the suicide attack in suruc (which was done by a religious Kurd last I heard). Turkey reacted by bombing PKK camps. Of course the bombing of the village is to be comdemned but also sure not done on purpose

Yep thats exactly it both sides behave like assholes you are right.
Not to mention that turkey until recently kinda supported isis (until the got hit themselfes) which is really insane so again this does not come out of the blue! http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/26/isis-syria-turkey-us?CMP=share_btn_tw.

 

[jakonovski]

"Surely not done on purpose"

I reiterate: this conflict has been going on for decades. Everything that happens is on purpose.

 

[hohoXD123]

I don't know enough about the PKK to comment on their treatment of women, but that shouldn't really be the focus.

A terrorist group launched an attack against Turkey and we have people defending the group and this attack. Weird as hell.



That doesn't really give them the right to launch suicide attacks.



I'm not sure I follow.

So you're saying that if you're attacked, you're free to respond? So that gives any terrorist attack against Western military targets, in their home countries, legitimacy?

As with most things, it's not that simple. It's not a case of PKK = bad, Turkey = good. Good people killing bad people = awesome. Bad people killing good people = oh no.

There is a lot of background to this. The disgraceful treatment of Kurds in Turkey propagating Kurdish nationalism and separatism, which while it has improved recently it still leaves a lot to be desired. The porous border between Turkey and Syria being a great help to ISIS despite Turkey's resources, and the Turkish army standing back and watching civilians in Kobane about to be slaughtered which didn't exactly help relations with Turkey's own Kurdish population. The real chance of peace with the ceasefire in 2013 and Turkey's subsequent airstrikes crossing into KRG territory without the backing of their so called Kurdish friends. Plus the timing of all this in relation to recent general election results suggests that this is more to do with Erdogan's thirst for power and doing away with democracy than protecting Turkish civilians, they are much more at risk now if anything. There's a good video on that last point by The Young Turks: Link. Despite PKK not being the face of all Kurds in Turkey, it does get significant support from them and does supposedly act in their interests.

Neither side are the angels their supporters purport them to be.

 

[Victarion]

Not recently, but in the 90s they did it regularly.


Rrminds me of this:

Did Fox News make this?

 

[KDR_11k]

The reason people like the PKK more than ISIS is because the PKK fights for a minority oppressed by a large state while ISIS is just fighting to murder people. And in this instance we get angry at Turkey for attacking the PKK more than ISIS (in retaliation to 2 kills by the PKK vs 37 kills by ISIS...) which will clearly benefit ISIS. Also for clearly taunting the Kurds by announcing a national grieving day for every little crap like some Saudi king but declaring 37 dead Kurds not worth that.

ISIS is about as popular as Adolf Hitler around here, Turkey helping them through a combination of inaction against them and action against their enemies makes the Turkish government a bunch of scum. Not that that's a new thing given how much crap that govt has pulled lately...

 

[hohoXD123]

Get your facts straight people. Turkey didn't break the ceasefire. It was the PKK that started killing innocent police officers following the suicide attack in suruc (which was done by a religious Kurd last I heard). Turkey reacted by bombing PKK camps. Of course the bombing of the village is to be comdemned but also surely not done on purpose
Both sides need to stop their attacks or the killings will just go on with no resolution in sight. Although I'm not sure you can have peace in Turkey with the PKK.
Not only is it a terrorist group, it also operates as a sort of mafia organisation in the cities. Here in Germany kurdish business owners generally have to pay protection money to the PKK.

Apparently the officers were killed for collaborating with ISIS over the Suruc bombing.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/11755018/Two-Turkish-police-officers-killed-close-to-Syria-border.html

Obviously don't take their word as gospel but that's their supposed excuse anyway, and I'm not anymore inclined to believe Turkey after its intention to mount a false flag operation against Syria than I am of the PKK.

 

[Kenshin001]

Get your facts straight people. Turkey didn't break the ceasefire. It was the PKK that started killing innocent police officers following the suicide attack in suruc (which was done by a religious Kurd last I heard). Turkey reacted by bombing PKK camps. Of course the bombing of the village is to be comdemned but also surely not done on purpose
Both sides need to stop their attacks or the killings will just go on with no resolution in sight. Although I'm not sure you can have peace in Turkey with the PKK.
Not only is it a terrorist group, it also operates as a sort of mafia organisation in the cities. Here in Germany kurdish business owners generally have to pay protection money to the PKK.

I agree PKK started it with their senseless killing of the officers however:

One senior western official familiar with the intelligence gathered at the slain leader’s compound said that direct dealings between Turkish officials and ranking Isis members was now “undeniable”.

“There are hundreds of flash drives and documents that were seized there,” the official told the Observer. “They are being analysed at the moment, but the links are already so clear that they could end up having profound policy implications for the relationship between us and Ankara.”

The PKK alleged Turkey was complicit in the Suruc bombing. Before Suruc Turkey sat on its arse and did nothing, colluded with IS, their soldiers stood idly by as IS herded people away from the border at Tal Abyad. Then, out of the whole population of Turkey, a bunch of leftists get killed who were on their way to help the Kurds in Kobane. The Turkish response has been disproportionate, Turkey has mostly bombed PKK instead of IS who killed those 32 Turkish civilians.

 

[El Topo]

Are we really comparing PKK with ISIS now?

 

[dakun]

lets be clear here, turkey deserves it. They pretend to bomb ISIS when in reality they are using the current conflict as an excuse to kill kurds.

and the PKK targeted a military structure

so you'd be perfectly fine if 9/11 was just about the Pentagon being attacked? surely the US deserved it for having their fingers in the Middle East?

many here fall in the same trap of supporting one terrorist group because they are more afraid of another one. It's going to bite everyone in their ass when PKK wins against ISIS and gets more control of the area.

 

[daniels]

so you'd be perfectly fine if 9/11 was just about the Pentagon being attacked? surely the US deserved it for having their fingers in the Middle East?

many here fall in the same trap of supporting one terrorist group because they are more afraid of another one. It's going to bite everyone in their ass when PKK wins against ISIS and gets more control of the area.

It has more to do with turkey supporting isis and attacking the pkk waaaaayyyy more than isis even though isis killed way more people in turkey with its terror attack... erdogan doesn't even try to hide this shit for him its all about staying in power.

 

[KingSnake]

PKK is a terrorist/guerrilla organisation by acting this way. Turkish state is an oppressive state that sat on its arse when 37 civilians where killed in a Kurd area and only reacted when a soldier was killed by IS and even then it bombed the Kurds disproportionally more than IS, actually. Practically using IS as an excuse to bomb the Kurds.

Not to mention the support that Erdogan had given to IS before all this happened.

The only innocents in this story are the Turkish soldiers and Kurds civilians killed and wounded. RIP.

 

[michaelius]

so you'd be perfectly fine if 9/11 was just about the Pentagon being attacked? surely the US deserved it for having their fingers in the Middle East?

many here fall in the same trap of supporting one terrorist group because they are more afraid of another one. It's going to bite everyone in their ass when PKK wins against ISIS and gets more control of the area.

Attack against military outpost is not act of terrorism.

 

[Chariot]

Attack against military outpost is not act of terrorism.

What.

 

[jakonovski]

These days, terrorism simply means "attacking the good guys", and thus it's entirely subjective.

I long for the days when it meant attacking civilians in an attempt to cause fear in the population.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

I'm glad people aren't confusing the kurdish people with PKK.

 

[Atreides]

While I don't agree with "attacking military targets" = "not terrorism" and "attacking civilians" = "terrorism" (sometimes attacking military targets can be also terrorism), I also dont' agree with "suicide attack" = "terrorism" and "air raid" = "not terrorism". Certaintly, it is absurd saying that a suicide attack is a "cowardly tactic" as opposed to an air raid.

There is not a clear cut deffinition of terrorism, but the most common agreed characteristic of a terrorist attack is that its main aim is to create fear in the population.

Since Turkey declared war on PKK, of course it is expected that the PKK will in turn attack Turkish military targets. I don't see how this attack is different from countless other attacks during war in history.

I'm not saying that I'm "perfectly fine" with this attack. I'm not saying that the PKK has never done terrorist attacks. I'm just saying that this is not a terrorist attack, just a plain military attack.

 

[Joni]

ISIS would have blown up a hotel full of tourists in Antalya and sunk the economy.

ISIS is currently not attacking any Turkish tourist centers, they're more than smart enough to not do that. ISIS will not attack any Turkish non-Kurdish targets as long as Turkey is basically leaving them alone. It is a major gateway for their caliphate.