What exactly is the problem of letting them vote for it? Why constantly prevent it if it is as clear cut as you say it is?
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PKK suicide bomb Turkish military police station.
- Thread starter Stereogatari
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What exactly is the problem of letting them vote for it? Why constantly prevent it if it is as clear cut as you say it is?
Exactly. Either it proves him right and the majority of Kurds in the Turkish state are happy with their position, taking away the legitimacy of Kurdish paramilitaries, or it proves him wrong and Kurds in Turkey get their own state and the violence ends.
Either way politics gets to trump violence, every time you stop violence being the only avenue for pursuit of a policy with mass backing.
Not recently, but in the 90s they did it regularly.
Rrminds me of this:
this chart is full of fail
Rolleyes especially at the link between Iran and Al Queda.
Why do you think is the Kurdish party, who got elected into parliament, not working for secession and is working for integration instead? Where will the Kurds go when they "leave"? If you expect a piece of the country to be broken off, what about the non-Kurds who live in those regions? It's not like certain regions contain exclusively Kurdish people, they're mixed in with the rest of the population.
Do you think that just because an extremist terrorist organization wants separation and bloodshed (shocking!) that also applies to the views of the average Kurdish person?
You mean the party that erdogan jails its supporters for "terrorism" without any prove??
We are actually not talking about letting terrorists vote just the common people why again is that a problem?
Stereogatari
Banned
Sir Fragula, Kurds are so interwoven with Turkish national culture that independence is nonsense talk. They aren't oppressed anymore, this isn't fucking 1970/1980 when the language was banned and illegal in the media, parliament and whatever. Things have changed since then, and I'm sorry to say but morons like you still pretend or ignorantly think that the issue of Kurdish rights is still what it was in the 1970s and 1980s.
They elect their own people to parliament now with their own party, they have thier own TV channels (even a STATE TV CHANNEL), they've always been highly represented in the music and actings industries even back in the 70s etc. but no. If we are to believe ignorant opinions like yours, then Kurds are the equivelant of Palestineans in Israel or worse off than Blacks in America, hell maybe their situation is like Apartheid in South Africa in your mind?
The millions of Kurds that escaped PKK shit in the South-East to live in Turkish majority cities in the West, proves that the issue of Kurds wanting independence isn't so clear cut. If Independence ever happened then Istanbul will still remain the city with the largest Kurdish population. Majority of Turkish Kurds won't be burning their Turkish citizenship cards anytime soon if the mythical independence ever happens. What will they be running to? A civil war between PKK and Hudapar (Islamist Kurds) most likely. Which is what occasionally happens in that region anyway.
Also why legitimise PKK by saying "you can't see why a portion of 15m people might turn to violence against a state". What about Kurdish Hizbullah, Hudapar and the other actors within the Kurdish power struggle. I don't see them killing or murdering Turkish soldiers and police to the same extent of PKK. Associating PKK with 15m people is so stupid. I suppose ISIS represents 1.5 billion people too with this logic?
PKK have killed more Kurds than anything else. You ever thought of something...The soldiers and police they happily kill aren't all ethnically Turkish...especially the ones in the South-East region where their operations are predominant...
Our ancestors fought together for this land to keep it safe from Western Imperialist ambitions. No way are we letting the nation split after the sacrifice of our ancestors.
The only reason the South-East of Turkey is behind the rest of Turkey is because of PKK making it unstable and scaring off teachers, development projects etc. Look at Northern Iraq. No PKK causing shit and it sounds like a swell place according to Christopher Hitchens. Honestly you Westerners confuse the fuck out of me. When it comes to other parts of the World you'll probably say things like "why won't these people accept Western development projects efforts? Modernise etc. Why do they bomb and reject?" but when it comes to PKK you support the their rejection of state-helped progression and support outright banditry.
Proof? You're talking absolute bullshit. Nobody has been arrested for being HDP member.
They elect their own people to parliament now with their own party, they have thier own TV channels (even a STATE TV CHANNEL), they've always been highly represented in the music and actings industries even back in the 70s etc. but no. If we are to believe ignorant opinions like yours, then Kurds are the equivelant of Palestineans in Israel or worse off than Blacks in America, hell maybe their situation is like Apartheid in South Africa in your mind?
The millions of Kurds that escaped PKK shit in the South-East to live in Turkish majority cities in the West, proves that the issue of Kurds wanting independence isn't so clear cut. If Independence ever happened then Istanbul will still remain the city with the largest Kurdish population. Majority of Turkish Kurds won't be burning their Turkish citizenship cards anytime soon if the mythical independence ever happens. What will they be running to? A civil war between PKK and Hudapar (Islamist Kurds) most likely. Which is what occasionally happens in that region anyway.
Also why legitimise PKK by saying "you can't see why a portion of 15m people might turn to violence against a state". What about Kurdish Hizbullah, Hudapar and the other actors within the Kurdish power struggle. I don't see them killing or murdering Turkish soldiers and police to the same extent of PKK. Associating PKK with 15m people is so stupid. I suppose ISIS represents 1.5 billion people too with this logic?
PKK have killed more Kurds than anything else. You ever thought of something...The soldiers and police they happily kill aren't all ethnically Turkish...especially the ones in the South-East region where their operations are predominant...
Our ancestors fought together for this land to keep it safe from Western Imperialist ambitions. No way are we letting the nation split after the sacrifice of our ancestors.
The only reason the South-East of Turkey is behind the rest of Turkey is because of PKK making it unstable and scaring off teachers, development projects etc. Look at Northern Iraq. No PKK causing shit and it sounds like a swell place according to Christopher Hitchens. Honestly you Westerners confuse the fuck out of me. When it comes to other parts of the World you'll probably say things like "why won't these people accept Western development projects efforts? Modernise etc. Why do they bomb and reject?" but when it comes to PKK you support the their rejection of state-helped progression and support outright banditry.
Proof? You're talking absolute bullshit. Nobody has been arrested for being HDP member.
Psyrgery ES
Member
I'm not going to defend PKK's last actions (despicable) but Turkey has been into some shady stuff with IS just to fuck with the Kurdish forces battling Is.
Even when Turkey decided to join the fight against IS the first thing they did was to bomb many PKK camps in Syria.
Turkey are assholes EDIT: Not Turkey, but Erdogan is.
Even when Turkey decided to join the fight against IS the first thing they did was to bomb many PKK camps in Syria.
Turkey are assholes EDIT: Not Turkey, but Erdogan is.
jakonovski
Member
Are there any Kurds around here who could give a point of view? All these Turkish nationalist nothing to see here posts remind me of the Iraqi information minister, or Frank Drebin.
NO U
Well it really depends who you ask
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/t...ile-kurdish-peace-process-faulters-1765890650
“The policy of Turkey and the policy of the AKP about IS is clear and it's open. They started operations against IS and the PKK, but [until now] they arrested maybe 50 IS suspects, while they arrested 500 Kurds. There are a number of HDP and (Democratic Regions Party) BDP members, members of syndicates, civil society bodies [who were arrested].”
"Post-election 'payback'
The HDP insist they remain peaceful, but mutual suspicions are explosive. Uca says that the recent anti-Kurdish measures have been payback on the part of the AKP for the HDP robbing them of enough seats in the general election to form a parliamentary majority."
yep whatever excuse erdogan needs
Well at least cartoonists have some fun with his sense of priorities
I don't know why you're assuming those of us criticizing Turkey's treatment of the Kurds all support the West's actions in the Arab world and love seeing white people mow down brown Muslims...
Also, there is a Palestinian/Arab party in Israel, so using your logic that means that the Palestinians don't want to separate and are treated perfectly fine in Israel? (Not that Turkey is as bad as Israel, I'm just demonstrating how faulty your logic is).
Again, why not let them hold a vote if you're so confident they want to remain a part of Turkey? If you're right it would only strengthen your cause and further delegitimize the PKK and other separatists.
Also, there is a Palestinian/Arab party in Israel, so using your logic that means that the Palestinians don't want to separate and are treated perfectly fine in Israel? (Not that Turkey is as bad as Israel, I'm just demonstrating how faulty your logic is).
Again, why not let them hold a vote if you're so confident they want to remain a part of Turkey? If you're right it would only strengthen your cause and further delegitimize the PKK and other separatists.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Not recently, but in the 90s they did it regularly.
Rrminds me of this:
Syria and Iran have quite a few mistakes
Let's say the Kurds vote yes. What happens then? Split the country in two and deport the millions of kurds from all over turkey into Kurdistan and the millions of turks from Kurdistan to the new Turkey? How is that humane and not totally against international laws? (honest question i don't know if it's illegal, i guess it is)
Again Kurds are a huge part of Turkey, whether you guys want to except it or not. A nation called Kurdistan would not change anything except give legitimacy to terrorist group PKK because they lead the cause and would most likely rule that country.
Turks under a PKK ruled Kurdistan would be sitting ducks moreso than any Kurd is in todays Turkey.
Let's not kid ourselves here. The recent arrests of HDP members have less to do with them being kurds and more to do with being political opponents of a wanna be dictator Erdoğan. It's not like anybody except AKP members and like minded people have any luck living under his rule.
archnemesis
Member
No, of course not. Creating a new state doesn't mean you have to force people to move. People who are unhappy where they live now, would have the option to move to the other country. Others would stay.
Kosovans are so interwoven with Serbian national culture that independence is nonsense talk.
Tibetans are so interwoven with Chinese national culture that independence is nonsense talk.
Irish are so interwoven with British national culture that independence is nonsense talk.
Catalonians are so interwoven with Spanish national culture that independence is nonsense talk.
Ukrainians are so interwoven with Russian national culture that independence is nonsense talk.
Bangladeshis are so interwoven with Pakistani national culture that independence is nonsense talk.
Brazilians are so interwoven with Portuguese national culture that independence is nonsense talk.
Austrians are so interwoven with German national culture that independence is nonsense talk.
Czechs and Slovakians are so interwoven with Czechoslovakian national culture that independence is nonsense talk.
It's only "nonsense talk" so long as Turks ignore the blindingly obvious. If the very notion of independence is folly then why has there been an armed conflict between Turks and Kurds for decades in order to push for that independence? Why are thousands upon thousands of people willing to fight you and die in order to not be tied to you? Why does your government enact laws that criminalise even peaceful pushes toward Kurdish independence?
It's "nonsense" because your government is shit scarred that Kurds probably would vote against remaining "Turkish".
And what about the millions of turks that would suddenly find their home land being in another country that is hostile to them? You arr seriously going to tell them to kust leave their homes if they don't like being ruled by PKK?
You guys simply refuse to think of the incredibly bloody consequences of all your ideas of a Kurdish state. The stuff between Palestine and Israel would look like kids play comparatively.
I'm not saying this because i want this. It's the reality of the situation there.
You're not spitting nations, you're splitting states. The nations are there already.
And what about the millions of Kurds who find their homeland being subsumed within the Turkish state that is also hostile to them?
This is what politics and negotiation are for - you come up with borders to a Kurdistan that follow national lines as much as possible, while also negotiating policies to protect minority enclaves etc. with facilities for those who want to move to do so.
archnemesis
Member
I chose the word "people" to describe both ethnic Kurds and Turks. Turks living in a hypothetical Kurdistan would be in the same situation as the Kurds are now. Why do you assume that a Kurdistan would be hostile to ethnic Turks?
I personally haven't decided if I support splitting parts off Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq to form a new country, but at least I'm willing to admit that posters like Sir Fragula have reasonable arguments for doing so.
Again, you're implying that the agenda of the PKK, a terrorist organization, represents the agenda of Kurdish people within Turkey. Many Kurds I know curse the PKK.
Surely that's the same as what would have happened in Scotland? English people live in Scotland for work/university/etc., yet that didn't stop the referendum being held. But yes, there are far more issues with a referendum for Turkish Kurds than with what happened in the UK, a possible referendum by the KRG in Iraq would be a closer scenario to that.
Are we seriously going to pretend that everything is fine and dandy with Kurds in Turkey because it's better than the 1970s? This is from the Human Rights Watch 2015 report:
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/turkey
This is from the 2014 European Commission report:
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf/key_documents/2014/20141008-turkey-progress-report_en.pdf
Some more on the use of anti-terrorism laws against Kurds
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/what-being-kurd-about-2015165576342191.html
Heck, just in 2007 Abdullah Demirbaş, an elected mayor, was dismissed for giving information on municipal services in Kurdish. Recognition of the Kurdish language isn't some decades old problem.
No one has been arrested for being a HDP member yet, but it's pretty obvious which MPs the new move to lift immunity against prosecution for having links with terrorists is aimed at, given the quotes above.
Unless if your anecdotal evidence has a sample size in the millions, you simply cannot know that without an actual referendum.
Nobody would be forced to do anything, people would have the option of relocating. It's not like something similar has never happened before.
I admittedly don't know enough about Kurdish politics to know whether your claim that PKK would be the major party over Peshmerga, YGP, or other groups is true or not, but it is important to note that ANC in South Africa were terrorists until they were able to form a recognized government. The Irish separatists were terrorists until they were able to form a recognized government. Israel's first leaders were terrorists until they were able to form a recognized government. American colonists were terrorists until they were able to form a recognized government...
Because i believe for a good reason that PKK members sooner or later would be ruling the country and not the Kurds that push for peace between kurds and turks.
I'm telling you it will be bloody because i know turks and i know kurds. If Turks in the area ever get the feeling that their home land will be stolen from them there is going to be uprisings and killings you won't be able to stop. And we'll get a civil war that is bloodier than anything you witnessed in the last few decades.
You cant just use a small minority of terrorists as excuse to suppress a vote for the overwhelming majority of kurds.
But I thought that Turks and Kurds are friends and only a handful of Kurds have a hostile attitude, according to the Turk testimonies in this thread. If they would peacefully vote for independence they will become the enemy suddenly?
Do you believe that almost half of the Scots that voted for independence hate the English people?
Turks living in Kurdistan as well as Kurds living outside Kurdistan will continue to live the same life as long as they don't want to leave the country. It's called being a minority in a country and it happens all over Europe. Of it's fine only if Kurds are a minority and Turks are in control?
Turks and Kurds all over Europe have no issues living in countries where they are in minority.
History taught us that people who want independence will get it one way or another (unless you're Palestinian). The peaceful way is always the better way, as it saves human lives and relations.
May I ask why you think that would be the case?
For the record, I am not against a referendum. I can't think of a good reason not to have it (though I'm sure Erdogan would try to bend it in his favor somehow)
I'm just trying to clear some misunderstandings here. Please don't paint me as if I have something against Kurdish people or their goals.
Ok sorry it wasn't my intention to smear anyone i try to change my tone interestingly enough i get kinda excited by politics strange^^
I'm not talking about the kurdish people but a PKK ruled Kurdistan that would be hostile.
And similarly turks that were "robbed" of their homeland would be hostile to Kurds no matter what.
And yes they would become enemies even if it was peacefully voted upon. Do you guys know any turks at all? They would start a war if they believe turkey is in any real danger of being cut into a smaller piece because of Kurds.
And just to clarify because I wasn't able to until now. I'm not against a Referendum at all. While I do believe that many Kurds don't care about having their own state and just want equal rights and better treatment (And it's getting there) I wouldn't cry foul if that wasn't the case and they actually did want that. Either way my problem is not about denying Kurds what they want at all. I think of the consequences of a decision to create a Kurdistan within Turkish borders.. and the only thing I see is more blood and a rise in hostility between Kurds and Turks that make the 70s/80s look like a joke.
Right now the hostility is reserved between the PKK and the Turkish military and i'd rather have it stay that way instead of involving the whole country with its citizens.
RamzaIsCool
The Amiga Brotherhood
Stop being so overdramatic, for peeps sake!
Kurds in Turkey deserve equal rights in everything. And sadly Turkey as a state hasn't complied that simple fact, tbh we were assholes to the Kurds pretty much thru out our history. That's why groups like the PKK can exist. But the thing about Kurds, they are not as homogenious as some of you guys make them out to be. They are deeply divided, like last year when the Kobani riots in the south east happened 40 people died. Not because government aggression, but because of intra-Kurdish fighting between PKK and Huda-par (Kurdish Islamists). 80% of the Kurds in Turkey are deeply conservative Muslims, who on Ideology alone wouldn't want anything to do with the PKK. The HDP went from 6% to 13% of the votes in the last general election. The biggest reason for this jump was that Kurdish conservative Muslims who normally vote AKP switched. But this doesn't mean those people all of a sudden changed their ideology to socialists or something.
I recommend reading this article article on why so many Turkish Kurds join ISIS.
http://www.ibtimes.com/kurds-joinin...-supporters-among-turkeys-disgruntled-2029924
The Suruc bomber who blew himself up killing Turkish leftist activist was of Kurdish descent for example.
i don't get why you guys think there is a will for independent kurdistan among turkey kurds.
not even pkk is asking for an independent state for the last couple of decades.
their official line is something like more autonomy within turkey or a federal government i believe.
and hdp's whole election campaign was built on them being a party of united turkey.
for me as an insider the result of such a referendum is pretty clear so i wouldn't be against it
but still say that we had a referendum and kurds opted for an independent state.
don't see that being an answer the new countries.
most probably kurdistan folk will be left to the oppression of armed warlords for a long time to come.
don't see pkk(known for pretty ruthless silencing of any opposition within organization)
willingly let go of their authority to a democratic entity after achieving independence.
also there is the possible power struggle with iraqi kurds (signs of which is clearly apparent even today
http://www.france24.com/en/20150801-kurds-iraq-barzani-pkk-enclave-turkey)
and new turkey will still be the country with the biggest kurdish population.
(since most of kurds live in western parts of the country for generations)
so it will still need to address its human rights issues of minorities
(with the very likely added bonus of racial tensions and rising nationalism post splitting the country.)
still as a turk who voted for hdp (i saw them being in parliament could be breakthrough for peaceful resolutions and also weaken erdogan's grip over the country) its quite depressing to see the way things turn.
not even pkk is asking for an independent state for the last couple of decades.
their official line is something like more autonomy within turkey or a federal government i believe.
and hdp's whole election campaign was built on them being a party of united turkey.
for me as an insider the result of such a referendum is pretty clear so i wouldn't be against it
but still say that we had a referendum and kurds opted for an independent state.
don't see that being an answer the new countries.
most probably kurdistan folk will be left to the oppression of armed warlords for a long time to come.
don't see pkk(known for pretty ruthless silencing of any opposition within organization)
willingly let go of their authority to a democratic entity after achieving independence.
also there is the possible power struggle with iraqi kurds (signs of which is clearly apparent even today
http://www.france24.com/en/20150801-kurds-iraq-barzani-pkk-enclave-turkey)
and new turkey will still be the country with the biggest kurdish population.
(since most of kurds live in western parts of the country for generations)
so it will still need to address its human rights issues of minorities
(with the very likely added bonus of racial tensions and rising nationalism post splitting the country.)
still as a turk who voted for hdp (i saw them being in parliament could be breakthrough for peaceful resolutions and also weaken erdogan's grip over the country) its quite depressing to see the way things turn.
Stereogatari
Banned
Yuksekova is a Kurdish town.
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