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[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Paradox Interactive delayed jail management simulator Prison Architect 2 indefinitely this August, commenting at the time that the game had notable performance issues, and that its system-led design was proving tricky to tinker with. This came a couple of months after the Crusader Kings publisher washed their hands of the sequel's original developers, Double Eleven.

Speaking to me at Paradox's Media Day last week, deputy chief executive officer Mattias Lilja offered a shade more insight on the decision, suggesting that hard-up players have "higher expectations" at present and are less trusting that developers will fix problems. Chief creative officer Henrik Fåhraeus also offered thoughts on what Paradox have learned from the disastrous launch of Cities: Skylines 2 in late 2023. Specifically, he said they need to give actual players access to the game early on, not just testers.

"We're pretty confident that the gameplay is good," Lilja said of Prison Architect 2. "But we had quality issues, which means to give the players the game they deserve, we decided to delay it. So it's not the same kind of bucket of challenges that we had with Life By You, which led to cancellation. It's more that we haven't been able to keep the pace that we wanted. But when we do peer reviews of the game and user testing and whatnot, people give us feedback, we actually get pretty good feedback, except for certain issues that we need to fix. Some of them are harder to fix than we thought."

Which issues, specifically, are Prison Architect 2's new developers Kokku having trouble with, I asked? "It's mostly certain technical issues rather than design," Lilja went on. "It's more how can we make this technically high-quality enough for a stable release." But there's also a degree of wider calculation, he added, based on Paradox's sense of how tolerant players currently are of imperfections even in early access releases.

"It's also based on the fact that we, in all transparency, see that fans right now, with a squeezed budget for games, have higher expectations, and are less accepting that you will fix things over time," Lilja said. "That's our take. The gaming space has always been the winner-takes-all type of environment. A few games bring in most of the players, and most games are dropped quite quickly, and this is even more pronounced now, [during] maybe the last two years. That's at least what we read from our games, and also from from others in the market."

[...]

"It's not new issues," Lilja said. "People should have high expectations. It's just that in order to be certain, we should make sure that we have checked and double-checked. Some of the issues, I would argue, that we had in Cities 2, were some issues that we had not really understood fully, and that's that's totally on us."

When I spoke to him separately, Fåhraeus admitted that Paradox knew that Cities: Skyline 2's performance needed improvement before launch - they just miscalculated how much players would care. "We were aware that performance was not great, but we underestimated how it will be perceived by players - how serious the player perception would be," he said. "So I think one learning with Cities 2 is if we could have brought players in to try it on a larger scale, that would have helped. Going forward, we need to have this communication with players and openness to a larger degree, and quite early if possible."

More at the link:

Players are now less "accepting" that games will be fixed, say Paradox, after "underestimating" the reaction to Cities: Skylines 2's performance woes

Paradox Interactive delayed jail management simulator Prison Architect 2 indefinitely this August, commenting at the ti…

www.rockpapershotgun.com

 

[cormack12]

The leeway extended by 'oh noes covid' wore thin and we realised it was a joke

 

[RoboFu]

Oh no...gamers expect games to work!? How dare they!

 

[clarky]

My expectations are to buy a working product, out of the box, you tit.

All good will was lost with this company when it decided to launch Skylines 2 in that state.

 

[cormack12]

My expectations are to buy a working product, out of the box you tit.

All good will was lost with this company when it decided to launch Skylines 2 in that state.

Yep there's a difference releasing with some minot bugs as opposed to releasing and you knew this was just broke

 

[winjer]

Gamers expecting a game to work and not run like crap, is now considered "high expectations".
As if delivering a decent product is too much to ask for.

 

[Majormaxxx]

what is next? release unfinished movies in theatres and email us the link to view them once they are done?

 

[GHG]

What a fucking moron.

With attitudes like that no wonder we've seen the shit we have over the last few years in terms of the state games have released in.

 

[MujkicHaris]

I didn't play Cities: Skylines 2 but I did read this post where the author took some time to analyze some of the frame data he got from RenderDoc.

And besides all the good points made in the post, here is my personal take: All of these problems could have been optimized in just two weeks. Or at least half of them. And most of it is basically optimizing assets for a genre of the game you are making. 100K vertices mesh for a pile of logs in a city builder? Bad idea, even if it's rendered using GPU instancing.

The mistakes made in Cities: Skylines 2 are 101 of optimization, I don't think players were ever that accepting for any past game. Most of it, in the past, had to do with bugs, but this Is just... laziness.

 

[GinSama]

I love paradox games but man the way they deal with dlc and any kind of downloadable content is a joke.

Putting together bad optimization....they need to start respect more the players.

 

[RCX]

Pardon me for expecting that paying full price should bring me a functional product.

 

[Robochobo]

I love paradox games but man the way they deal with dlc and any kind of downloadable content is a joke.

Putting together bad optimization....they need to start respect more the players.

I stopped buying new Paradox games after March of the Eagles getting dropped and their insane DLC philosophy. My favorite game from them isn't even technically made by them but instead of group of modders who've been updating an old Hearts of Iron 2 branch for the past THIRTEEN years with a new 1.06 patch on the way.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Shame on the gamers, they pay full price and have the audacity to demand a working product on launch day. They should be happy they were allowed to consume the product.

 

[Punished Miku]

I appreciate the guy's transparency. Almost too transparent. He says it's on them and he's owning it and being honest, so I can't really be too mad about it.

But yeah, Nintendo figured this out 40 years ago. It does matter and it is how you build up a reputation as a publisher worth buying from. Would have been nice if Lamplighter's League didn't have a save bug at launch which killed a fantastic game's reputation.

 

[KellyNole]

I rarely pay full price for games these days because I have to wait to truly play them. Six months to a year or so later patches will come in and solve the problems with the launch game. That is now when I start to buy. As others have said in this thread, Nintendo is one of the few exceptions where the game on release day is typically a good experience, well minus their sports games. Those titles are bare bones and usually add a good amount of content later.

 

[SportsFan581]

I was looking forward to this one, maybe they will get it fixed someday. Certainly these things should be complete on launch day.

 

[Bojji]

Games should be "fixed" on day one. Or at worst within 7 days of release with prior info about that from publishers.

We live in the world when it takes like ~6 months after release for big games to be in good condition.

 

[nowhat]

But yeah, Nintendo figured this out 40 years ago.

In Skyward Sword (this probably/hopefully has been patched in the re-release) on Wii, in the disc version, there's a game breaking bug. At one point in the story, you have to clear three objectives. And the game kinda nudges you towards a particular order, but you don't have to adhere to it. And if you don't, well, you're fucked. You are unable to complete the game. You are also unable to revert to a previous save, because (according to Nintendo) what are saves.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Stop releasing broken games that you have to fix down the road.

I understand that these companies need revenue to pay for the fixes, but that's not on gamers to fund.

Many of these games do get fixed within the first couple months or so. You can't convince me that delaying these games by a couple months wouldn't get the job done.

If you want to release early access/betas by all means, but make it clear.

Gaming needs to become more transparent.

 

[ssringo]

Yeah. When games keep getting shoved out the door in a half ass state year after year and take months to fix even the more die hard gamers get sick of it. Bonus points for selling the ever present deluxe edition with future content via season passes.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The leeway extended by 'oh noes covid' wore thin and we realised it was a joke

Yep. Most devs in major companies are in the office too so yet another leeway that is wearing thin too. So devs are back in the office and we do not have the Covid lockdowns and all… the situation did not magically improve…

 

[Gonzito]

Well shit, finally players are starting to wake up. Thank god

 

[Halo is Back]

They have been trying to condition us to accept broken games. Fuck that

 

[StereoVsn]

So, release a game at full price. It runs like shit and it still runs like a shit a year later.

Now Paradox makes a surprise Pikachu face that gamers aren’t accepting of that? Well, you then deserve your losses. That company is run by a bunch of god damn monkeys.

Also, I am tired of all the excuses. Companies charge full price for their games and when they inevitably release with plethora of issues I am not paying full price for them anymore.

 

[StereoVsn]

Games should be "fixed" on day one. Or at worst within 7 days of release with prior info about that from publishers.

We live in the world when it takes like ~6 months after release for big games to be in good condition.

Or sometimes that never happens at all. Look at Dead Space remaster for a recent example or Jedi Survivor.

 

[killatopak]

I love paradox games but man the way they deal with dlc and any kind of downloadable content is a joke.

Putting together bad optimization....they need to start respect more the players.

Paradox and even EA’s Sims operate the same way.

Here’s a feature in our previous game we will now sell to you as DLC. Then they drip feed this on you in like two dozen dlcs.

I love the games but man do they suck as publishers and devs.

 

[Bojji]

Or sometimes that never happens at all. Look at Dead Space remaster for a recent example or Jedi Survivor.

Yep, some publishers abandon games. At least jedi is like ~75% fixed with the recent patch.

 

[Fake]

Let me guess, our fault?

 

[Bojji]

Let me guess, our fault?

It's always Incels...

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The leeway extended by 'oh noes covid' wore thin and we realised it was a joke

It was all horseshit.

Also, what happened to "well, working from home is more productive and relaxing". So if anything, gaming should had got better since employees dont have to slog it to the office in traffic, waste time talking at the water cooler or have nosey employees and bosses pissing off anyone..... at least that's the jist given regarding WFH vs office life.

Aside from gaming, how many other things did you buy since then that were bombed with worse quality due to covid production issues? For most people, I bet just about everything you bought was the same shit. Only issue was trucking and port delays so maybe it was out of stock. But the product itself was still same as always. Our company released new products during covid like everyone else. Same ol schedule. A shit load of products release in first half like every year. Didn't see any issues at my company. And gaming has the luxury of not needing to worry about shipping stuff across oceans hoping there's enough container ships available as covid fucked up ocean transport with gimped routes and containers costing like 5x what they usually cost (I took a guess there, since I dont work in supply chain and traffic). Most of us companies were fine. And we WFH for 2 years straight too.

 

[Madserb2023]

Yes, I expect games to work especially after paying £60 for it. I also expect not to get food poisoning when I go out to a restaurant. I think gamers are too lenient. Imagine buying a book and half the pages were missing or furniture from IKEA and most of the pieces were missing or broken. You would 100% want a refund so why not with games. They have had it so good for too long

 

[AmuroChan]

I think one of the biggest contributing factors is that many tech companies in the past decade or so have transition to the agile framework in their project management. This framework largely works for non-gaming software (ie. Windows, Office, ServiceNow, etc) because customers generally stick with these software for the long term. So it's fine for the dev team to shoot for MVP (minimum viable product) at launch and then update the software on a regular cadence as they collect metrics and feedback. This simply doesn't work with most games because players will just move on if the game they're playing does not instantly provide a positive experience. For something like MMOs it may be fine because MMO players understand that the game evolves over time, but for most other games, the consumers are not going to be happy with just a MVP when paying $70 for the game at launch.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

He is not wrong, and that's a bit of split personality of gaming right now i.e. game reviews are wholly based on Day 1 state, without ever revisiting the game, which the developers spent months after launch in order to fix and improve upon.

 

[SHA]

As well as day 1 purchases.

 

[proandrad]

Don’t release broken games, problem solved.

 

[Kabelly]

there is just too many complete finished games to keep up with all the new broken game of the week. so sorry!

Jamboree is also coming out next week so I'll have to keep pushing Cities Skylines 2 out of the way. Then Planet Coaster 2 is right around the corner so I guess Cities Skylines 2 will have to wait another day.

 

[Fabieter]

People accept early access games so they just should do that instead.

 

[Deft Beck]

Either finish the game and release it later at full price or put it in Early Access at a reduced price.

If you fuck around with player trust, they will not come back. No time for that.

 

[fart town usa]

It comes down to a case by case basis for me. I have infinitely more patience with indie games, not so much with AAA titles.

Lots of people cry foul but then give stuff like CP2077 a pass. That game blows by any standard. There's also the element of some people being impatient or just sucking at whatever game they're playing. That's usually the case with VR because this scenario happens all the time and it's not always the games fault.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Heres the rub. We were never okay with it. We just didnt have a choice.

 

[Kenpachii]

release the game in early access and at a reduced price then. U launch at full price and its a full release i expect a full working day 1 finished product. I bought skyline cities 2 and it was a complete mess never again.

 

[Londo]

Would all these companies still be standing if we were still in the days of cartridges?
Maybe it's time for a new mindset.

 

[Garibaldi]

I fail to see how expecting a product to not be broken at time of purchase is 'high expectations'.

 

[winjer]

I bet that these devs, if they went to a restaurant and were served a meal as undercooked as their games, they would complain. A lot.
Yet, they think other people have to accept buying an unfinished product, just because these people feel entitled to our money.

 

[Kacho]

I've had my fill on Paradox map games. I'm good.

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

I'm fucking sick of buying Early Access, Betas, whatever you wanna call it, for full price and then finding out after I already beat an inferior version that NOW there's a patch and NOW it's like so great lulz. Test your fucking game before you sell it to me as a functioning product.

I very, very rarely won't wait for a few months by now. Usually you get rewarded by getting a better version for cheaper, it's kind of silly.

 

[Shifty1897]

What an out of touch quote. There's a big difference between a few graphical/gameplay bugs and running at 20 fps on a 3090.

 

[Quantum253]

We had a director that wore a button that stated, " I just want it to work". This came from months of sub-par system maintenance and almost everything causing a headache to deal with.

This seems to be now spilling out where people are done constantly dealing with things being below expectations. Whether that's from base-line customer service or needing assistance. With costs soaring, people want value in their purchases. Having a game feel like it still needs development time isn't acceptable at full price.

I feel this will be a continous trend going forward. There is a shaking going on in the game industry and I hope we come out to better practices on the other side