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[Bo_Hazem]

Actually knowing with reasonable certainty you'll get a system at launch.

Just not a common practice in the US for online stores to sell merchandise before they have an agreement with a supplier I guess; not that all pre-orders are always fulfilled on time, because shit happens, but the idea is that what you are buying is an item in their stock based on a deal they have with a supplier.. not a product they hope to get in stock but aren't sure how many they'll be receiving so you never know.

A manager of Sony who's been harassed by me for months prior to PS4 launch had to wake me up at around 9am and in 17 minutes I was there to pick the first PS4 in the region.

 

[mitchman]

Actually knowing with reasonable certainty you'll get a system at launch.

Just not a common practice in the US for online stores to sell merchandise before they have an agreement with a supplier I guess; not that all pre-orders are always fulfilled on time, because shit happens, but the idea is that what you are buying is an item in their stock based on a deal they have with a supplier.. not a product they hope to get in stock but aren't sure how many they'll be receiving so you never know.

I'm not worried about that. Many larger retailers in Norway have had pre-ordered up for months now, and will receive the bulk of the consoles sold here anyway.

 

[ZywyPL]

Albert Penello Yeah, sure. PS5 Pro doesn't automatically mean a rival console from xbox by the way as it's not inline with AMD's roadmap, unless they're going for 52+52=104CU chiplet. Plust, current 30fps gonna be 60fps and more refined.

Actually MS is in much better/safer position than Sony is - if we look at all 3 latest models from each manufacturer, XB1/X1X/XBX it's 12 vs 40 vs 52CU, and all the games actually use all those CUs, despite the odd number/multiplier, so they obviously don't have to make their next console to have double to CU count of XBX, it can be as well 64, 72, 82, 96 etc. and it will work, whereas Sony on the other hand seems to be limited by that infamous butterfly design from PS4 Pro, if they want to be backwards compatible that is, that's most likely the reason PS5 is still sitting at just 36CUs again. I was hoping for 54CUs (3*18) which would make perfect sense to play base PS4, Pro, and new games made specifically for PS5, but that seems to be not the case, and looks like they really need to make a 72CU GPU in order to make it work, which was currently either not possible due to technological limitations or simply financial point of view (high price).

 

[IntentionalPun]

I'm not worried about that. Many larger retailers in Norway have had pre-ordered up for months now, and will receive the bulk of the consoles sold here anyway.

The level of consumerism in the US is beyond most major countries combined (especially for the Holiday season.)

If a major retailer had pre-orders up for months of PS5 they'd have long ago "sold" far more than they'd be receiving, even with the US receiving more than it's share of consoles. I doubt that's unique to the US even... I'm sure there are European countries where it will take months for people to easily get a console.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Actually MS is in much better/safer position than Sony is - if we look at all 3 latest models from each manufacturer, XB1/X1X/XBX it's 12 vs 40 vs 52CU, and all the games actually use all those CUs, despite the odd number/multiplier, so they obviously don't have to make their next console to have double to CU count of XBX, it can be as well 64, 72, 82, 96 etc. and it will work, whereas Sony on the other hand seems to be limited by that infamous butterfly design from PS4 Pro, if they want to be backwards compatible that is, that's most likely the reason PS5 is still sitting at just 36CUs again. I was hoping for 54Cus (3*18) that would make perfect sense to play base PS4, Pro, and new games made specifically for PS5, but that seems to be not the case, and looks like they really need to make a 72CU GPU in order to make it work, which was currently either not be possible due to technological limitations or financial point of view (high price).

It's actually using the same die as PS5, xbox has unique dies for each which makes them more expensive to make, not to mention that AMD is ditching anything beyond 36-40CU dies and PS5/Pro fall inline in their future roadmap. Making that 72CU chiplet/stacked would rather be pretty cheap for Sony as it's simply the same base PS5 die as the Pro, just like PS4 Pro. So the extra CU's won't make it beyond $500 mark by 2023-2024 like doing the same count or less from the ground up with pretty low target sales.

PS4 Pro doesn't need its own sales target due to using existing die of PS4 but doubled. X1X should be pretty expensive for xbox and with the shy sales it hurts even more compared to PS4 Pro due to its new die.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

Actually MS is in much better/safer position than Sony is - if we look at all 3 latest models from each manufacturer, XB1/X1X/XBX it's 12 vs 40 vs 52CU, and all the games actually use all those CUs, despite the odd number/multiplier, so they obviously don't have to make their next console to have double to CU count of XBX, it can be as well 64, 72, 82, 96 etc. and it will work, whereas Sony on the other hand seems to be limited by that infamous butterfly design from PS4 Pro, if they want to be backwards compatible that is, that's most likely the reason PS5 is still sitting at just 36CUs again. I was hoping for 54CUs (3*18) which would make perfect sense to play base PS4, Pro, and new games made specifically for PS5, but that seems to be not the case, and looks like they really need to make a 72CU GPU in order to make it work, which was currently either not possible due to technological limitations or simply financial point of view (high price).

There are no games that are designed only for ps4 pro.
So this is bullshit. All games only have to be compatible for base ps4 design.

 

[ZywyPL]

I's actually using the same die as PS5, xbox has unique dies for each which make them more expensive to make, not to mention that AMD is ditching anything beyond 36-40CU dies and PS5/Pro fall inline in their future roadmap. Making that 72CU chiplet/stacked would rather be pretty cheap for Sony as it's simply the same base PS5 die as the Pro, just like PS4 Pro. So the extra CU's won't make it beyond $500 mark by 2023-2024 like doing the same count or less from the ground up with pretty low target sales.

PS4 Pro doesn't need its own sales target due to using existing die of PS4 but doubled. X1X should be pretty expensive for xbox and with the shy sales it hurts even more compared to PS4 Pro do to its new die.

We will see, but IMO in the next 4 years or so we will be seeing 5, or maybe even 3nm process being used, and making such a small GPUs (36-40CU) won't have much sense, it should be much safer and easier to just add CUs than going into 2.5-3D design and mess with the developers liek the Pro already had, where without patching those double CUs aren't even accessible for the games.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

We will see, but IMO in the next 4 years or so we will be seeing 5, or maybe even 3nm process being used, and making such a small GPUs (36-40CU) won't have much sense, it should be much safer and easier to just add CUs than going into 2.5-3D design and mess with the developers liek the Pro already had, where without patching those double CUs aren't even accessible for the games.

Not sure about that, but using the same die of existing console that sells high is a safer bet that made their PS4 Pro pretty successful for its purpose and not needing to release what sounds like an all-new console that's anchored by base model anyway.

 

[ZywyPL]

Not sure about that, but using the same die of existing console that sells high is a safer bit that made their PS4 Pro pretty successful for its purpose and not needing to release what sounds like an all-new console that's anchored by base model anyway.

Pro is made in 16nm process vs 28nm found in original PS4, hence it packs twice the CUs at about the same overall die size (and price). And the same could easily happen with PS5 Pro or PS6, whatever will be the next console - wait for a die shrink or two, pack twice as much CUs/CPU cores, and call it a day. Unless 3D packing will turn out to be really THAT cost efficient.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Pro is made in 16nm process vs 28nm found in original PS4, hence it packs twice the CUs at about the same overall die size (and price). And the same could easily happen with PS5 Pro or PS6, whatever will be the next console - wait for a die shrink or two, pack twice as much CUs/CPU cores, and call it a day. Unless 3D packing will turn out to be really THAT cost efficient.

Well, then that makes sense, I thought they kept it at 28nm. Your analogy seems smarter, but 3D stacking might offer a cheaper alternative? Who knows, but I can see Sony pushing for "Dynamic 8K" to sell more TV's, MS might not need that but would push for high framerates, which will both in the end provide similar results to some extent.

 

[dorkimoe]

Got target, best buy, walmart and amazon all opened to the ps5 landing page. Lets go please

 

[bitbydeath]

 

[xacto]

Sony Doubles PlayStation 5 Production to 10 Million Consoles (Report)

PlayStation manufacturer Sony is reportedly doubling the number of PlayStation 5 consoles in production to 10 million, in an attempt to scale and meet demand before the highly-anticipated hardware goes on sale this holiday season.Bloomberg reported Wednesday evening that Sony would double its...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Mr Hyde]

Checked out Demon's Souls and Ratchet & Clank in 4K trailers and they looked absolutely stunning. No fucking way that can be done on a PS4. The visual enhancements looks to be a big upgrade. I didn't think so at first, it looked kinda samey samey, but now with a proper TV the difference is crystal clear. Ratchet looked like a realtime animated Pixar feature. Fucking amazing. And this is just the start of the gen. Gonna check out Horizon next.

 

[Bryank75]

Sony stock price is now 77.96 dollars (went down in after hours trading, normal)

Or...... 98.2 Billion dollars market cap.

Nearly twice what Nintendo is worth and approaching 100 billion, the most it's been in nearly 20 years.

30.9 billion in cash / cash equivalents.

All I want them to do is buy Kadokawa and add all the Manga to Sony pictures and From soft to PlayStation studios.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

It's actually using the same die as PS5, xbox has unique dies for each which make them more expensive to make, not to mention that AMD is ditching anything beyond 36-40CU dies and PS5/Pro fall inline in their future roadmap. Making that 72CU chiplet/stacked would rather be pretty cheap for Sony as it's simply the same base PS5 die as the Pro, just like PS4 Pro. So the extra CU's won't make it beyond $500 mark by 2023-2024 like doing the same count or less from the ground up with pretty low target sales.

PS4 Pro doesn't need its own sales target due to using existing die of PS4 but doubled. X1X should be pretty expensive for xbox and with the shy sales it hurts even more compared to PS4 Pro due to its new die.

Microsoft is in a much better position when it comes to the decision whether or not to upgrade the Series X down the line. There's no worry if Xbox users go to Windows because...well, it's obvious. Sony on the other hand needs to make sure PlayStation users stay in their ecosystem. A PS5 Pro makes sense. If making a 72 CU chip stacked is part of the long term plan, and considering how Sony needs to keep people in the ecosystem, than maybe they'd make the base PS5 cheaper than expected while PS5 Pro sits below $500 mark. Just spitballing. End of the day, on Sony's side of things, no reason not to make a Pro.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Microsoft is in a much better position when it comes to the decision whether or not to upgrade the Series X down the line. There's no worry if Xbox users go to Windows because...well, it's obvious. Sony on the other hand needs to make sure PlayStation users stay in their ecosystem. A PS5 Pro makes sense. If making a 72 CU chip stacked is part of the long term plan, and considering how Sony needs to keep people in the ecosystem, than maybe they'd make the base PS5 cheaper than expected while PS5 Pro sits below $500 mark. Just spitballing. End of the day, on Sony's side of things, no reason not to make a Pro.

Well, globally PS5 doesn't even need power to have massive sales, it's more of them needing to sell more TV's along with the consoles, and probably provide higher framerates and stable resolution with possibly some 8K gaming.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

Well, globally PS5 doesn't even need power to have massive sales, it's more of them needing to sell more TV's along with the consoles, and probably provide higher framerates and stable resolution with possibly some 8K gaming.

I could see a PS5 Pro positioned as an 8K 30fps/4K 60 (maybe 120) machine. Honestly, the television industry will push for 8K, but it's truly useless outside of VR. LG and other industry people found out the hard way, but that still won't stop some. PS5 Pro as a 4K 120 machine would be pretty dope.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I could see a PS5 Pro positioned as an 8K 30fps/4K 60 (maybe 120) machine. Honestly, the television industry will push for 8K, but it's truly useless outside of VR. LG and other industry people found out the hard way, but that still won't stop some. PS5 Pro as a 4K 120 machine would be pretty dope.

VR is extremely demanding, you need 4K@240fps to have 4K@120fps for each eye, so that's another benefit to compliment PSVR2. By 2023-2024 8K tv's will be the new mid-range tv's, especially LCD's, as more expensive versions like QNED, microLED from Samsung (Crystal LED or CLED from Sony), Dual-layer LCD's would be out there along with some other new tech and maybe HDMI 3.0 with 8K@120Hz.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

VR is extremely demanding, you need 4K@240fps to have 4K@120fps for each eye, so that's another benefit to compliment PSVR2. By 2023-2024 8K tv's will be the new mid-range tv's, especially LCD's, as more expensive versions like QNED, microLED from Samsung (Crystal LED or CLED from Sony), Dual-layer LCD's would be out there along with some other new tech and maybe HDMI 3.0 with 8K@120Hz.

Samsung's pet project microLED is having all sorts of issues. Well, I guess I should say Samsung Electronics, cause Samsung Display is pushing for QNED. I'm more curious about QNED since it's looking to replace their QLED at this point. I've read mixed things on dual-layer. Because they literally use two LCD layers, you're light efficiency drops considerably, which is saying something considering typical light efficiency is 6% in current LCD. Hisense claims 4%, so those screens are using almost 50% more power just to hit a thousand nits at typical LCD efficiency. I've read reports that you can feel the heat coming off the TV over a meter away! This was last year in the Panasonic Megacon at IFA. Not to mention other issues such as having to perfectly align both panels or risk casting a shadow on the second LCD layer. Panasonic actually tried dual-layer some years ago and abandoned it. Wonder if Hisense can find a solution.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Alex has been shitting his pants over the HUGE difference between PS4 Pro and PC at ultra, the right one is ultra with DLSS faking, then middle is native 4K on PC at ultra, the left is PS4 Pro:

 

[Bryank75]

Alex has been shitting his pants over the HUGE difference between PS4 Pro and PC at ultra, the right one is ultra with DLSS faking, then middle is native 4K on PC at ultra, the left is PS4 Pro:

Hilarious...there's no discernible difference at all.
The funniest bit is him moving the camera around to look at a shadow at some weird angle to prove it's better in the PC version.... pathetic.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Hilarious...there's no discernible difference at all.
The funniest bit is him moving the camera around to look at a shadow at some weird angle to prove it's better in the PC version.... pathetic.

I was really, really waiting to try it on my PC with a massive graphics upgrade compared to PS4 Pro. And people wonder why I still didn't even start a game in my "theoretically" gaming PC. It's only native 4K (not interested in DLSS fakes) and around 60-70fps. Those could be easily done with PS5 and then some.

 

[Bryank75]

I was really, really waiting that I might try it on my PC with a massive graphics upgrade compared to PS4 Pro. And people wonder why I still didn't even start a game in my "theoretically" gamine PC. It's only native 4K (not interested in DLSS fakes) and around 60-70fps. Those could be easily done with PS5 and then some.

PC can be great but I feel the differences are so overblown that it is irritating. The guys on DF exaggerate so much and sound like they are almost having an orgasm over a few fps or some slight difference in shadow quality.....
I doubt they have more than a handful of games they ever completed.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

PC can be great but I feel the differences are so overblown that it is irritating. The guys on DF exaggerate so much and sound like they are almost having an orgasm over a few fps or some slight difference in shadow quality.....
I doubt they have more than a handful of games they ever completed.

The only interesting game that I might play on PC is Star Citizen, and currently it's not even as good as launch No Man's Sky.

 

[Self High Five]

Microsoft is in a much better position when it comes to the decision whether or not to upgrade the Series X down the line. There's no worry if Xbox users go to Windows because...well, it's obvious.

Obvious in what way? Losing Xbox Live Gold subscriptions which dwarfs Gamepass along with 30% cut of third party sales?

Microsoft makes significantly more money from gaming on Xbox than they do on PC. Valve is not giving them a cut on any sales for Call of Duty when a user buys it on Steam. The whole purpose of their PC initiative is to make money of PC gamers that had little interest in an Xbox or console gaming in general.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

Obvious in what way? Losing Xbox Live Gold subscriptions which dwarfs Gamepass along with 30% cut of third party sales?

Microsoft makes significantly more money from gaming on Xbox than they do on PC. Valve is not giving them a cut on any sales for Call of Duty when a user buys it on Steam. The whole purpose of their PC initiative is to make money of PC gamers that had little interest in an Xbox or console gaming in general.

I said they're in a better position versus Sony, not Steam. Also, yes, I agree with your statement on their PC initiative. Which is why I said it was obvious. If an Xbox console only player moves to PC, chances are they may take Game Pass with them. There's a better chance of those players staying in the ecosystem, thus they keep making money from them. Not to mention PC players giving Game Pass a chance.

 

[Celcius]

Alex has been shitting his pants over the HUGE difference between PS4 Pro and PC at ultra, the right one is ultra with DLSS faking, then middle is native 4K on PC at ultra, the left is PS4 Pro:

It's easy to tell the difference... look at the logo on the side of the vehicle. It's much clearer on the far right picture than either of the other two.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It's easy to tell the difference... look at the logo on the side of the vehicle. It's much clearer on the far right picture than either of the other two.

I know that, but that's with DLSS faking. The middle is true native 4K, and the difference on any of those are pretty minor, only framerates are noticeable. Overall, I expected a higher PQ, but it's just like Detroit: Become Human type of upgrade, pretty small. Not even at the level of base PS4 vs PS4 Pro.

 

[xacto]

 

[-Arcadia-]

This is going to be so much fun.

I need to time a lunch break with this. I’m looking forward to finally seeing the unique aspects of the controller in action/impressions, especially the triggers.

 

[thurnishaleygw]

I'm curious to see what is he going to test it with. Possibly the Astro Bot game?

 

[pawel86ck]

I was really, really waiting to try it on my PC with a massive graphics upgrade compared to PS4 Pro. And people wonder why I still didn't even start a game in my "theoretically" gaming PC. It's only native 4K (not interested in DLSS fakes) and around 60-70fps. Those could be easily done with PS5 and then some.

Fake or not, it's still comparable to 4K with TAA. I had to examine DLSS 2.0 vs native 4K screenshots with 200% lupe to really tell the subtle difference in detail clarity and because AA thanks to DLSS is even supperior compared to TAA I would even put DLSS 2.0 picture above 4K TAA. IMO only 4K + SSAA or good old MSAA offers supperior quality compared to DLSS 2.0.

I dont know why people would choose 45-60fps with 4K TAA over 60fps+ with DLSS 2.0 (better performance and better picture quality overall thanks to supperior AA). Only 4K native + SSAA would make sense to me, but SSAA performance penalty is insane, so that's only useful for old games.

 

[thurnishaleygw]

The world of Ghost of Tsushima is absolutely gorgeous, the photo mode is going to be one of the main things to exploit in this game

Goes to show you that art style is as important as technical prowess.

 

[kensama]

She doesn't look like so big finally

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Fake or not, it's still comparable to 4K with TAA. I had to examine DLSS 2.0 vs native 4K screenshots with 200% lupe to really tell the subtle difference in detail clarity and because AA thanks to DLSS is even supperior compared to TAA I would even put DLSS 2.0 picture above 4K TAA. IMO only 4K + SSAA or good old MSAA offers supperior quality compared to DLSS 2.0.

I dont know why people would choose 45-60fps with 4K TAA over 60fps+ with DLSS 2.0 (better performance and better picture quality overall thanks to supperior AA). Only 4K native + SSAA would make sense to me, but SSAA performance penalty is insane, so that's only useful for old games.

Well DLSS performance is unpredictable. It's not upscaling, it's a different animal. Personally, I don't like it that much and would rather have 4K as it is.

 

[xacto]

For the people who missed it, timestamped.

 

[Kusarigama]

For the people who missed it, timestamped.

It was certainly amusing to see the demo part end with unlocking of a PS3 in game.

Another thing I wonder is, did PlayStation send a person with actual PS5 Console or dev unit with the Controller for demonstration or did they do the demo by the PS Now for PS5 cloud streaming and the controller sent to him. Geoff did mention that they took away the controller soon after the demo but nothing about the console.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

Well DLSS performance is unpredictable. It's not upscaling, it's a different animal. Personally, I don't like it that much and would rather have 4K as it is.

The idea of getting better frame rate with this tech seems pretty cool to me. I'm still rocking an RX480, so I've not seen in-person D.L.S.S. What exactly don't you like about it?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The idea of getting better frame rate with this tech seems pretty cool to me. I'm still rocking an RX480, so I've not seen in-person D.L.S.S. What exactly don't you like about it?

Last game played natively on my pc was CS in 2007, I think. I have AMD Radeon VII, no DLSS here although they made their own shit. But DLSS forced sharpening could make that, Alex won't show it:




Most games have something weird. I respect the tech but I don't like it. I would go with normal upscaling instead. It's just fake 4K.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Here's AMD's version, FidelityFX, could be implemented on consoles, seems to keep it more natural to native 4K:

EDIT: The video seems fake.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

Last game played natively on my pc was CS in 2007, I think. I have AMD Radeon VII, no DLSS here although they made their own shit. But DLSS forced sharpening could make that, Alex won't show it:




Most games have something weird. I respect the tech but I don't like it. I would go with normal upscaling instead. It's just fake 4K.

Personally not enough to bother me, but I see what you're saying. I suppose these issues could be worse on different games, but D.L.S.S. has come a long way and I'm sure they'll continue to iron out these problems. Hell, by the time a PS5 Pro shows up, AMD could have their own version of D.L.S.S. Probably would be the sole reason a PS5 Pro could potentially hit 120fps.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

Here's AMD's version, could be implemented on consoles:

Huh, didn't realize that was kind of "their" version. How exactly is this working differently from Nvidia's offering? Feels like AMD isn't talking about it the same way Nvidia talks up theirs. Why aren't Sony and Microsoft talking about this?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Huh, didn't realize that was kind of "their" version. How exactly is this working differently from Nvidia's offering? Feels like AMD isn't talking about it the same way Nvidia talks up theirs. Why aren't Sony and Microsoft talking about this?

I knew about it before but didn't think it was performing very closely, just look how ridiculous the comparison is:





Could be implemented on consoles as this is RDNA1, who knows. I hope they optimize them well with no funny results if implemented.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

I knew about it before but didn't think it was performing very closely, just look how ridiculous the comparison is:





Could be implemented on consoles as this is RDNA1, who knows. I hope they optimize them well with no funny results if implemented.

Again, I really don't understand how something like this has not been talked about for either console. Seems like a big deal to utilize.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Again, I really don't understand how something like this has not been talked about for either console. Seems like a big deal to utilize.

Should be talked about then. I'll start it in the spec thread.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

DELETE

 

[Gamernyc78]

Hit 13 million.

 

[bitbydeath]

In the Sony twitter QA.



Mark Cerny?

 

[jose4gg]

In the Sony twitter QA.



Mark Cerny?

I hope so, today's guy was a marketing guy that really didn't know how to explain things.