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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags

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Averon

Member
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitterfeed

Coburn: 'Stupid and naive' to think cutting deficit won't require tax increases

Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) on Friday said it's "stupid and naive" to think that a grand bargain on reducing the federal deficit can be reached without tax increases.

"I think it's terrible that we would have to raise more taxes," Coburn said on C-SPAN's "Washington Journal." "But if we're going to get an agreement in Washington to fix our problems, when those of us that don't want to raise taxes control the House of Representatives, don't control the Senate, don't control the White House — I think it's pretty stupid and naive to think you're going to win that battle."

Coburn, a member of the so-called Gang of Six that proposed a $3.7 trillion deficit-reduction proposal earlier this week, continued his war of words with the anti-tax advocate Grover Norquist, saying he "represents the silliness of our political situation today."
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Averon said:
Coburn, a member of the so-called Gang of Six that proposed a $3.7 trillion deficit-reduction proposal earlier this week, continued his war of words with the anti-tax advocate Grover Norquist, saying he "represents the silliness of our political situation today."

*slowclap.gif*
 

Chichikov

Member
PantherLotus said:
Here's the video I was referencing a few days ago, regarding Obama/Lincoln, and the long view of history and compromise (in the face of extreme adversity).

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/07/obama_on_compromise.php?ref=fpblg

sidenote: I wish there was a world that he was my professor and I was his student. That would be so freaking cool.
I sure enjoy being talked down to.
And once again, fuck this discussion in the abstract, there's no stupider argument than "if both sides hate me, I must be doing something right!".
If he thinks that his grand compromise is a good deal, he should sell it on its on merits.

PantherLotus said:
That video really makes me want to get into politics/civics. I love that stuff.
Do it, it's not that hard.
Start with local politics.
It's much easier to have impact there, and if you live in a small/mid-size town, you don't need to do much more than fucking show up.
 

Cyan

Banned
Chichikov said:
I sure enjoy being talked down to.
And once again, fuck this discussion in the abstract, there's no stupider argument than "if both sides hate me, I must be doing something right!".
If he thinks that his grand compromise is a good deal, he should sell it on its on merits.
"A good compromise leaves everyone mad."
-Calvin
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Chichikov said:
A better compromise leaves everyone happy.
Or at least some people.

Do I really need to mount an ad-absurdum attack on that argument?

Some people are happy with the compromises that we've seen over the last couple years. It's not like everybody's pissed off at the health care bill that was passed for example.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Chichikov said:
I sure enjoy being talked down to.
And once again, fuck this discussion in the abstract, there's no stupider argument than "if both sides hate me, I must be doing something right!".
If he thinks that his grand compromise is a good deal, he should sell it on its on merits.


Do it, it's not that hard.
Start with local politics.
It's much easier to have impact there, and if you live in a small/mid-size town, you don't need to do much more than fucking show up.

1. You seem fairly well educated, but I can't imagine how you survived 20 years of being talked down to. Have you ever had professors from Harvard (either graduates from or used to teach there)? or Pulitzer Prize winning professors? I'm certain you've had your share of amazing instructors, but c'mon man. The lot of them are insufferably arrogant blowhards. (and I love them).

2. Meh. I always wanted to moonlight in Crisis Communications and/or speech writing and/or wordsmithery. I wonder if there's any lobbyist positions...
 

Chichikov

Member
Invisible_Insane said:
Could you? Just for the spectacle?
A deal that is bad for everyone, that will hurt every single person in the US will leave everyone mad.
For example: setting a flat tax at 100% of the income.

Now it's true, this is not technically contradict what Cyan said, he wrote "A good compromise leaves everyone mad", that does not mean that every deal that leaves everyone's mad is a good one.

But that's kinda the case that Obama was trying to make.

PantherLotus said:
1. You seem fairly well educated, but I can't imagine how you survived 20 years of being talked down to. Have you ever had professors from Harvard (either graduates from or used to teach there)? or Pulitzer Prize winning professors? I'm certain you've had your share of amazing instructors, but c'mon man. The lot of them are insufferably arrogant blowhards. (and I love them).
I'm an angry and bitter man.
I spent 6 years in the military, I had to deal was being talked down to by idiots that I couldn't even respond to. Crap like that barely faze me, I just love to complain on the internets.
 
lol @ Franken

Cygnus X-1 said:
Let me ask one question: why did not Obama and Dem solve this problem before Midterms?

Because the debt ceiling wasn't an issue at the time. They didn't know that Republicans would do what they're attempting to do. They didn't know that the Tea Party would sweep into the House and basically play Russian roulette with our nations economy. Considering that we have never defaulted and never had a problem with increasing our debt ceiling, would you have expected this?
 

Cyan

Banned
Chichikov said:
A deal that is bad for everyone, that will hurt every single person in the US will leave everyone mad.
For example: setting a flat tax at 100% of the income.

Now it's true, this is not technically contradict what Cyan said, he wrote "A good compromise leaves everyone mad", that does not mean that every deal that leaves everyone's mad is a good one.

But that's kinda the case that Obama was trying to make.
I'm surprised you'd try to argue with a famous political philosopher like Calvin.

But yeah, that ad absurdum doesn't really work. If g is a good compromise and m is everyone being mad, it's saying g->m. m->g is nowhere stated. :p
 
Cygnus X-1 said:
Let me ask one question: why did not Obama and Dem solve this problem before Midterms?
I'm not sure if you're aware--the Constitution includes some language forbidding elected officials from exercising foresight. (It's fairly likely that such an effort would have died in the Senate, but it would have at least been worth trying.)

Chichikov said:
A deal that is bad for everyone, that will hurt every single person in the US will leave everyone mad.
For example: setting a flat tax at 100% of the income.

Now it's true, this is not technically contradict what Cyan said, he wrote "A good compromise leaves everyone mad", that does not mean that every deal that leaves everyone's mad is a good one.

But that's kinda the case that Obama was trying to make.
Not nearly as spectacular as I'd hoped.


LovingSteam said:
Because the debt ceiling wasn't an issue at the time. They didn't know that Republicans would do what they're attempting to do. They didn't know that the Tea Party would sweep into the House and basically play Russian roulette with our nations economy. Considering that we have never defaulted and never had a problem with increasing our debt ceiling, would you have expected this?
False. It's been an ass-ache for a number of presidents, as that Reagan footage going around should demonstrate. It was easy enough to see this coming, and the Dems should have behaved accordingly.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Chichikov said:
A deal that is bad for everyone, that will hurt every single person in the US will leave everyone mad.
For example: setting a flat tax at 100% of the income.

Now it's true, this is not technically contradict what Cyan said, he wrote "A good compromise leaves everyone mad", that does not mean that every deal that leaves everyone's mad is a good one.

But that's kinda the case that Obama was trying to make.

Pissing everyone off with absurdities is not the same of reaching toward compromise, dude.

And I'm certain you're familiar with the grand American tradition of everyone leaving the room pissed off with the agreement. See: virtually every legislative act in US history, starting right around 1770s. Compromise IS the art of making sure all sides are equally pissed while trying to reach some goal. You know that.
 

Chichikov

Member
Cyan said:
I'm surprised you'd try to argue with a famous political philosopher like Calvin.

But yeah, that ad absurdum doesn't really work. If g is a good compromise and m is everyone being mad, it's saying g->m. m->g is nowhere stated. :p
As I noted, this is more against the case Obama was trying to make, as I said in my first post, he should defend his compromise on its merits, not on the fact that people are unhappy about it.

Invisible_Insane said:
Not nearly as spectacular as I'd hoped.
I know, me too.
They can't all be winners.

It was quite better in my head, but man, everything is better in my head.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Chichikov said:
I'm an angry and bitter man.
I spent 6 years in the military, I had to deal was being talked down to by idiots that I couldn't even respond to. Crap like that barely faze me, I just love to complain on the internets.

Ahh. You need to take a couple higher end history courses, then. That's the same exact tone used in all cases, and it's actually quite musical to me. It might be to you as well.
 

tokkun

Member
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
Sure, there's nothing wrong with borrowing to take on vital tasks such as fighting Nazis on the moon. But to maintain this as standard operating procedure for decade after decade is simply insane. How long can we live with massive deficits and debt? Would a company be able to get away with this forever? Should they? Can they? Can we? Should we? Who's on first?
I know EV... nobody cares about debt.

Like any other type of borrowing, you can get away with it as long as the return you get from investing the money exceeds the cost of the load and there are still lenders available.

Deficit spending makes sense for countries because investing money in infrastructure, research, job creation, education, health care, and so forth is used to drive increases in GDP. This increases revenues and offsets the cost of borrowing. If the increased revenue (over the long term) is higher than the cost of borrowing, then you would be foolish not to borrow. One of the key things to keep in mind here is that unlike a normal citizen, the US government can borrow money (sell bonds) at extremely good rates (~2.5%).

Of course there are limits. Once the increase in revenue becomes less than the amount being borrowed, you will start to accrue increasing debt. Once the interest on that debt exceeds the increased revenue, debt will continue increasing even without more borrowing. This is why the ratio of debt to GDP is an important figure. As to what is the ideal ratio, that is something of an open question.
 
PantherLotus said:
Pissing everyone off with absurdities is not the same of reaching toward compromise, dude.

And I'm certain you're familiar with the grand American tradition of everyone leaving the room pissed off with the agreement. See: virtually every legislative act in US history, starting right around 1770s. Compromise IS the art of making sure all sides are equally pissed while trying to reach some goal. You know that.
Don't you tend to argue that Obama is not as bad a negotiator as lots of the left tries to assert? I think the liberal positions have tended to get the worse end of many of the deals he's cut.
 
Chichikov said:
I sure enjoy being talked down to.
And once again, fuck this discussion in the abstract, there's no stupider argument than "if both sides hate me, I must be doing something right!".
If he thinks that his grand compromise is a good deal, he should sell it on its on merits.

Obama has forgotten that he represents the top 5% while the Republicans represent the top 1%. That compromise hasn't made everybody mad because it's a good one, it's made everybody mad because it betrays 95% of us.
 

Cygnus X-1

Member
LovingSteam said:
lol @ Franken



Because the debt ceiling wasn't an issue at the time. They didn't know that Republicans would do what they're attempting to do. They didn't know that the Tea Party would sweep into the House and basically play Russian roulette with our nations economy. Considering that we have never defaulted and never had a problem with increasing our debt ceiling, would you have expected this?

I suppose anyway, that US treasure department makes budgets for at least the two or three successive years. So, raising the public debt was at that time not considered a problem. Why is it now?
 

Chichikov

Member
PantherLotus said:
Pissing everyone off with absurdities is not the same of reaching toward compromise, dude.

And I'm certain you're familiar with the grand American tradition of everyone leaving the room pissed off with the agreement. See: virtually every legislative act in US history, starting right around 1770s. Compromise IS the art of making sure all sides are equally pissed while trying to reach some goal. You know that.
Again, I'm not saying that the fact that people are mad means it's a bad compromise, but I think Obama is implying that means it's a good one (which have been talking point favorite for decades, on both sides of the aisle, for you partisan hacks keeping score at home).
And I think this is bullshit.

I want to hear Obama explain why a 3 trillion dollar cuts is the best deal he can get for this economy.
If he thinks austerity in the time of recession is a good thing, I want to hear him explain why.

PantherLotus said:
Ahh. You need to take a couple higher end history courses, then. That's the same exact tone used in all cases, and it's actually quite musical to me. It might be to you as well.
I studied, among other things, philosophy, linguists, art and history.
I'm well versed in that tone.

Honestly though, I don't have a huge problem with that, it was just one half joking off the cuffs remark.

empty vessel said:
Obama has forgotten that he represents the top 5% while the Republicans represent the top 1%. That compromise hasn't made everybody mad because it's a good one, it's made everybody mad because it betrays 95% of us.
Agreed.
 
Wow, he really used the example of Lincoln and slavery to frame his compromises? I guess it makes sense, putting the interests of the 19th century wealthy and his political career ahead of the freedom of blacks probably has a lot of contemporary connections with Obama's governance.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
PantherLotus said:
And I'm certain you're familiar with the grand American tradition of everyone leaving the room pissed off with the agreement. See: virtually every legislative act in US history, starting right around 1770s. Compromise IS the art of making sure all sides are equally pissed while trying to reach some goal. You know that.

But it doesn't always work. See, e.g. the Compromise of 1850.

I see why people make this "compromise is supposed to suck" argument, when they can't defend a particular compromise on its actual merits, but it isn't very persuasive.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Byakuya769 said:
Wow, he really used the example of Lincoln and slavery to frame his compromises? I guess it makes sense, putting the interests of the 19th century wealthy and his political careers ahead of the freedom of blacks probably has a lot of contemporary connections with Obama's governance.

To be honest, it just sounded like he had an axe to grind with the Huffington Post...
 
vcassano1 said:
To be honest, it just sounded like he had an axe to grind with the Huffington Post...

Yea, he really has a strong disdain for the "organized" left. His attitude seems to be "you idiots should love what I'm doing, but you're too stupid to see that I'm the best you'll get".

I think he stumbles into a right position, cause that group is a definite joke. Thinking that snarky articles and feigned outrage will win over people instead of actual organization and "everyman" framing. However, Obama is off the mark for continually belittling what amounts to be his base.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Byakuya769 said:
Yea, he really has a strong disdain for the "organized" left. His attitude seems to be "you idiots should love what I'm doing, but you're too stupid to see that I'm the best you'll get".

I think he stumbles into a right position, cause that group is a definite joke. Thinking that snarky articles and feigned outrage will win over people instead of actual organization and "everyman" framing. However, Obama is off the mark for continually belittling what amounts to be his base.
Funny enough, I think this post proves his point.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Byakuya769 said:
Snark in case. How is that?
Because you are fairly/unfairly (depending on your perspective, I suppose) focusing on all of the negative aspects of the compromises that have been made. His point is that neither group will ever deem anything passed "good enough" because they are constantly shooting for 100% or bust. If that is your mindset, then nothing that is ever passed will be deemed good enough and you will always leave the room mad.

Politics, like most things in life and probably more so, you have to take the plenty bad with the plenty (or occasional if I'm being fair) good.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
As Senate Kills ‘Cut, Cap, And Balance,’ Boehner Says: Amend It, Send It Back
Brian Beutler | July 22, 2011, 10:59AM


John-Boehner-2011-25-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg




The Republicans' rightly-maligned Cut, Cap, and Balance plan was set up to fail in the U.S. Senate. But it wasn't meant to happen at the exact same time as the House GOP held a press conference to rally in support of the bill, with the deadline for raising the debt limit now just over a week away.

But that's exactly what happened Friday, when House Republicans cut short a press conference, and beat the gavel on a vote to table Cut, Cap, and Balance -- a vote which was playing out right in front of their faces on closed circuit TV.

But before departing, House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), ever sensitive to the needs of his conservative caucus, told reporters, there was "never an agreement," with President Obama to raise the debt limit. "Frankly," he said, "[we're] not close to an agreement."

So the clock will continue to tick into the weekend before a deal is reached, or everybody agrees to pursue a fallback plan.

"If they don't like our version of Cut, Cap, and Balance...they can make amendments to it and send it back over," Boehner hinted. What form that would take is still up in the air.


###################


Wow Boehner really? Congress can be shitty sometimes.
 
reilo said:
Because you are fairly/unfairly (depending on your perspective, I suppose) focusing on all of the negative aspects of the compromises that have been made. His point is that neither group will ever deem anything passed "good enough" because they are constantly shooting for 100% or bust. If that is your mindset, then nothing that is ever passed will be deemed good enough and you will always leave the room mad.

Politics, like most things in life and probably more so, you have to take the plenty bad with the plenty (or occasional if I'm being fair) good.

When did I give the impression that I have that mind frame? I've defended some of the compromises on certain levels.

One thing that I think is important to note, though: it's not my responsibility to take solace in the reality of his compromises. All that would do is push those compromises further and further to the right. What I am supposed to do is state my policy preferences, and state them loudly. Obama gets paid to navigate those with political reality, perceived or otherwise. But as a citizen with interest, it serves me little to celebrate my policy preferences being watered down.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
I'm with Reilo on this one.

I think that just because the liberal position is the correct one doesn't mean that they (liberals) have the political high ground, nor do I think that because the high ground isn't held that it means they've failed on some communicative or persuasive level.

Politics is a ton more than policy, which is obviously one of my favorite things about it -- the theater and strategy of it all.

As an aside, I think you guys dismissing Obama's Emanicapation Proclamation point are yourselves missing the point. Surely you understand the different forces at work that resulted in a compromised freedom-for-slaves act, right? You have to look at it in context, through the long lens of history, and how it was a catalyst for other, bigger (and better) moments. It's so weird to see that video and see the completely opposite reaction:

Me: here's a great video about how Obama see compromise as a long process of reaching toward some ultimate goal.

YouGuys: wow, way to talk down to me! And funny Obama would pick the Emancipation Proclamation, since it represents the 19th century wealthy.


That's just a bizarre reaction to me. Clearly his point is that EVEN THE BEST PRESIDENT IN HISTORY had to give up perhaps the most important philosophical correction our country has ever needed to achieve some ultimate goal! What's so hard to see about that? Then, look at what it led to, how long it took, and how it's viewed by history's judge.

And you guys KNOW i'm not an Obamapologist, but what the hell. You're parroting the "he's talking down to me" thing that reminds me of vague tea party members afraid of an educated black man. Makes me want to bathe.

As for the compromise, we'll see. I'm sure I'll hate it.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Byakuya769 said:
When did I give the impression that I have that mind frame? I've defended some of the compromises on certain levels.

One thing that I think is important to note, though: it's not my responsibility to take solace in the reality of his compromises. All that would do is push those compromises further and further to the right. What I am supposed to do is state my policy preferences, and state them loudly. Obama gets paid to navigate those with political reality, perceived or otherwise. But as a citizen with interest, it serves me little to celebrate my policy preferences being watered down.

Agreed that you have no obligation to 'celebrate' when your ultimate policy goals are watered down. However, I don't think anyone is asking for you to celebrate, but instead acknowledge the political reality in which the compromise was made -- which it sounds like you are actually doing. (so I'm not sure what the problem is)
 
PL, with that line of thinking, no actors in history should ever be judged by anything other than the dominant hegemony of the time. For example, we shouldn't judge how the Civil Rights movement forced the Kennedys/LBJ into action, rather, we must look at it through their own personal views and choices. Meaning, hey.. it may have taken them a while to do the right thing, but those personal compromises are ok, because look at the progress we've made since then.

It's patently absurd, and removes any real responsibility for delaying doing what's right, as long as you can point to some concrete improvement and ignore any potential goods that could have come sooner.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Byakuya769 said:
PL, with that line of thinking, no actors in history should ever be judged by anything other than the dominant hegemony of the time. For example, we shouldn't judge how the Civil Rights movement forced the Kennedys/LBJ into action, rather, we must look at it through their own personal views and choices. Meaning, hey.. it may have taken them a while to do the right thing, but those personal compromises are ok, because look at the progress we've made since then.

It's patently absurd, and removes any real responsibility for delaying doing what's right, as long as you can point to some concrete improvement and ignore any potential goods that could have come sooner.

Whhaaaat? The Civil Rights movement wasn't a significant portion of the political reality at the time and therefore by my reasoning we can't judge JFK and LBJ for pressing forward at varying speeds?

Who said anything about the lenses of personal views and choices? We're talking about compromise for political expediency, taking incremental steps toward a goal, and the long view of history taking a kind eye toward otherwise intolerable bargaining giveaways. What are you on about?

edit: leaving this instead of nm'ing because I think my points are valid, if not relevant to what you're actually saying. Re-replied below after I re-read your post and understand it better.
 
Byakuya769 said:
PL, with that line of thinking, no actors in history should ever be judged by anything other than the dominant hegemony of the time. For example, we shouldn't judge how the Civil Rights movement forced the Kennedys/LBJ into action, rather, we must look at it through their own personal views and choices. Meaning, hey.. it may have taken them a while to do the right thing, but those personal compromises are ok, because look at the progress we've made since then.

It's patently absurd, and removes any real responsibility for delaying doing what's right, as long as you can point to some concrete improvement and ignore any potential goods that could have come sooner.
Sometimes I wonder if you guys live in the real world. Outside of dictatorships, it takes a lot of time for the winds of change to come sweeping through a country. Imo, history is often too kind to the leaders who just happened to be at the right place at the right time when the change does come about. Sure there are strong leaders, but they are few and far between.
 

Wall

Member
RustyNails said:
$45,000 per capita.

Except since the U.S. government is basically immortal for the purposes of this discussion, that debt spreads over generations, so it is misleading to think of it as every citizen carrying a debt burden of that level that they will need to pay off in their lifetimes.

In addition, population growth, productivity growth, and general (we hope) economic growth also need to be considered. We ran up a lot of debt fighting WW2, for example, but since the economy was bigger in the 50's than it was in the 30's and 40's, that debt was easier to pay off than it would have been.

Here is something that I can't understand. Assuming that the analogizing of government budgets to that of households and businesses is accurate, even though I don't believe it is, I don't see how treating the government like either of these two entities implies that we should be worrying about debt right now.

Depending on how it is calculated, the most pessimistic number that I've seen is that debt is at, or will soon hit, 100 percent of GDP, meaning that our debt level will be equal to the total value of all goods and services produced by the U.S. in a given year.

That sounds scary, but it really isn't when you consider that, even in the "good old days", when households and businesses weren't up to their own eyeballs in debt, people used to need to take out a mortgages that were twice their yearly salaries in order to afford a house. That means, if they were a government, they would have a debt to income ratio of 200 percent. Now, of course, many people are carrying much higher debt loads in order to afford housing, or even higher education.

So, if we were to hold households to the same standard that we are supposedly holding the government, nobody would ever buy a house. I doubt many people would start a businesses or attend college either. I even doubt many businesses would be able to expand.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
reilo said:
Because you are fairly/unfairly (depending on your perspective, I suppose) focusing on all of the negative aspects of the compromises that have been made. His point is that neither group will ever deem anything passed "good enough" because they are constantly shooting for 100% or bust. If that is your mindset, then nothing that is ever passed will be deemed good enough and you will always leave the room mad.

Politics, like most things in life and probably more so, you have to take the plenty bad with the plenty (or occasional if I'm being fair) good.

But they aren't. This is just a straw man.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Byakuya769 said:
PL, with that line of thinking, no actors in history should ever be judged by anything other than the dominant hegemony of the time. For example, we shouldn't judge how the Civil Rights movement forced the Kennedys/LBJ into action, rather, we must look at it through their own personal views and choices. Meaning, hey.. it may have taken them a while to do the right thing, but those personal compromises are ok, because look at the progress we've made since then.

It's patently absurd, and removes any real responsibility for delaying doing what's right, as long as you can point to some concrete improvement and ignore any potential goods that could have come sooner.

Quoting again to re-respond after re-reading. I think you ARE correctly reading me, because that's exactly what I'm suggesting. I'm saying Lincoln can't and shouldn't be judged for "giving away" freedom for northern slaves because:

a) the political reality (dominant hegemony, i guess) of the time
b) how things turned out in the end.

Yes, THATS EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING! The converse is unimaginable to me. Speaking of which, this is more or less the same conversation from the George Washington thread. Of COURSE you have to judge history in context. What's the other option?
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
Sometimes I wonder if you guys live in the real world. Outside of dictatorships, it takes a lot of time for the winds of change to come sweeping through a country. Imo, history is often too kind to the leaders who just happened to be at the right place at the right time when the change does come about. Sure there are strong leaders, but they are few and far between.

This post pleases my historical sense of the world, though I'll posit that good leaders have a tendency to be extremely lucky (see: George Washington).
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Byakuya769 said:
PL, with that line of thinking, no actors in history should ever be judged by anything other than the dominant hegemony of the time. For example, we shouldn't judge how the Civil Rights movement forced the Kennedys/LBJ into action, rather, we must look at it through their own personal views and choices. Meaning, hey.. it may have taken them a while to do the right thing, but those personal compromises are ok, because look at the progress we've made since then.

It's patently absurd, and removes any real responsibility for delaying doing what's right, as long as you can point to some concrete improvement and ignore any potential goods that could have come sooner.


It's not absurd. It's reality! It's piecing different parts of time into a bigger historical picture. We can use Social Security as an example too. Liberals love to talk about the great FDR and his grand social programs like Social Security, but rarely talk about how limited and compromised some of them were.

If you don't take things into context and look at the bigger picture, then how are you going to understand how to take course on something in the future?
 
speculawyer said:
Nice to see there is still some sanity in the GOP.

Cuburn is a complete idiotic, but smart enough to realize Obama is willing to give the entire farm for next to nothing; Coburn is old school enough to take a good deal when it's offered, unlike the fools in the house of representatives.

Republicans are trying to add a health care mandate repeal to the Grand Bargain
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...getting-worse/2011/07/22/gIQAJcDbTI_blog.html

If that goes through I'm not voting next year
 
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