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[jamesinclair]

Who wouldn't love to see a surplus? It's a sign of stability, no?

Its a sign that we need to cut spending and taxes!

 

[Jackson50]

I didn't mind having Kosmo around....he sounds just like my loony cousins....and spews the same dumb talking points, so I loved everyone's response to him which I, in turn, use over the dinner table usually resulting me owning them most of the time. Thanks PoliGAF.

In addition to what Cyan mentioned, he provided us with such gems as "the commanders are refusing to end DADT" and "you want to force churches to marry homosexuals?". He will be sorely missed.

 

[Vestal]

I wasn't thinking about either (sorry) as I was purely thinking of program spending. Both of the wars though caused a huge increase in government spending and I will agree with that. Still not sure why we're still in either but that's another topic.

Because we just can't leave shit there as it was.. How would it make our country look, when we took Iraq back to the stoneage and then just got up and left? We fucked it up in 2k3 going in, so we were morally obligated to stick to it till it was atleast stable.

 

[indigo-cyclops]

Its a sign that we need to cut spending and taxes!

Ah yes, of course, of course. Makes sense now! :-x

 

[Pctx]

Bush cut revenue but he didnt hold spending constant. He did this whole TWO GIANT FUCKING WARS thing.
.....
.....
Our government has grown, because it has made our life better.

Yes--- of which I would guess you and I would agree on that we need to exit those wars and quickly.

As I stated above, I wasn't taking those into account as I was thinking primarily about program spending but I see where that is problematic.

As to the government growing and making our lives better... I'll concede the point that life costs more now than it did in 1900 and we do have a better quality of life now; Because of the government---- I don't agree with that.

 

[Pctx]

Because we just can't leave shit there as it was.. How would it make our country look, when we took Iraq back to the stoneage and then just got up and left? We fucked it up in 2k3 going in, so we were morally obligated to stick to it till it was atleast stable.

I'm sure you wouldn't want to hear what my ideas are in terms of a military.... or maybe you would... who knows.

Unfortunately we became the world police when WWII came to our shores in the form of pearl harbor. After that, it has been a prerogative to stick our finger in other peoples pies to tell them what is best or how to run things. Quite frankly, speaking from a pretty extensive ME background, democracy doesn't really work there in the traditional American sense, but apparently we haven't figured that out yet.

 

[GaimeGuy]

a Year of Frugality would be nice. Ultra high tax rates. Call for companies across the country to move to a 10/4 work week for the year, to save on operatinig costs for their businesses (electricity, mainly) and transportation/gas costs for everyone. This would help offset the tax increases with cuts in their necessary expenses. Encourage carpooling and walking/biking/using public transportation to get to work, even if it may take twice as long to get to/from work, for additional savings.


Get a year or two of surpluses in the trillions of dollars. People bitch about taxes, fine, we'll cut out the sustained high tax rates and just make it really really hurt for one or two years.

I swear that's the only way we're going to get anything done, and it would be the cheapest way to pay off/reduce the debt, too. (quickly, so the interest doesn't pile up).

It's clear republicans don't want any permanent actions to be taken, so we'll take the emergency actions instead, do it all in one fell swoop.

Fucking republicans.

 

[Vestal]

I'm sure you wouldn't want to hear what my ideas are in terms of a military.... or maybe you would... who knows.

Unfortunately we became the world police when WWII came to our shores in the form of pearl harbor. After that, it has been a prerogative to stick our finger in other peoples pies to tell them what is best or how to run things. Quite frankly, speaking from a pretty extensive ME background, democracy doesn't really work there in the traditional American sense, but apparently we haven't figured that out yet.

Something we can agree on.. We can't be the world Police. I don't mind helping other nations that what makes us who we are, however we shouldn't be sticking our finger in other peoples business.

Vietnam(CLUSTER FUCK).. Iraq 2.0(CLUSTER FUCK)

Iraq 1.0(BRETT HART)

Spoiler

excellence of execution if u didn't know

 

[Pctx]

a Year of Frugality would be nice. Ultra high tax rates. Call for companies across the country to move to a 10/4 work week for the year, to save on operatinig costs for their businesses (electricity, mainly) and transportation/gas costs for everyone. This would help offset the tax increases with cuts in their necessary expenses. Encourage carpooling and walking/biking/using public transportation to get to work, even if it may take twice as long to get to/from work, for additional savings.


Get a year or two of surpluses in the trillions of dollars. People bitch about taxes, fine, we'll cut out the sustained high tax rates and just make it really really hurt for one or two years.

I swear that's the only way we're going to get anything done, and it would be the cheapest way to pay off/reduce the debt, too. (quickly, so the interest doesn't pile up).

It's clear republicans don't want any permanent actions to be taken, so we'll take the emergency actions instead, do it all in one fell swoop.

Fucking republicans.

Actually it seems that both sides don't want to be a martyr for this cause and are just trying to do temporary things in order to get a more comprehensive plan together later.

 

[jamesinclair]

As to the government growing and making our lives better... I'll concede the point that life costs more now than it did in 1900 and we do have a better quality of life now; Because of the government---- I don't agree with that.

What Im saying is that government has had to have grown more than inflation due to technology.

Besides FAA, and highways, you have NASA, you have things like the clean air act (epa enforcement) that wouldnt have been necessary if there hadnt been an industrial revolution. We wouldnt need financial regulation if trade was in cows and not in billions of electronic dollars.

If you're trying to say that quality of life was better in 1900 then today....well, thats a whole other issue and I see no point in discussing that.

Personally, I enjoy having things like high schools and colleges and museums and libraries and highways and subway systems and planes and clean water and safe food and decent air and etc etc

 

[Pctx]

What Im saying is that government has had to have grown more than inflation due to technology.

Besides FAA, and highways, you have NASA, you have things like the clean air act (epa enforcement) that wouldnt have been necessary if there hadnt been an industrial revolution. We wouldnt need financial regulation if trade was in cows and not in billions of electronic dollars.

If you're trying to say that quality of life was better in 1900 then today....well, thats a whole other issue and I see no point in discussing that.

Personally, I enjoy having things like high schools and colleges and museums and libraries and highways and subway systems and planes and clean water and safe food and decent air and etc etc

I guess my stance is the industrial revolution, private industry and the government are what has given us the better life styles we have now. I wouldn't just pin my hat on the government for everything that we have today.

 

[maximum360]

WHY THE FUCK IS CNN INTERVIEWING GROVER NORQUIST.

I bet Fareed Zakaria is in a quiet corner fuming. I think he made the comment a few weeks ago about how the direction of CNN was really changing and that they were going in a positive direction aware from the sensationalist mainstream media driver. Go CNN!

PS. I haven't even channel-surfed by CNN in weeks. Feels good.

 

[mckmas8808]

You're right, there's not enough time to score the bill, pass it, send it to conference, pass it again, etc. I tend to think republicans chose to run this process out the minute Obama gave a deadline; that way they get to snidely point out the world didn't blow up like Obama said it would, blah blah blah. It's certainly possible we won't default on August 3rd, as we don't know if the WH has been telling the full truth here.

I'm pretty surprised the markets haven't reacted harshly in one fell swoop yet.

Who said we would default on August 3rd? Nobody has said that PD and stop lying like this.

 

[empty vessel]

I guess my stance is the industrial revolution, private industry and the government are what has given us the better life styles we have now. I wouldn't just pin my hat on the government for everything that we have today.

Of course it isn't responsible for everything that we have today. But it is an integral part of our well being, and it is being assailed by extremists, and has been for decades now. This is the culmination of that effort. Our government is currently extremely underfunded for a modern society, and it is destroying our standard of living.

 

[jamesinclair]

I guess my stance is the industrial revolution, private industry and the government are what has given us the better life styles we have now. I wouldn't just pin my hat on the government for everything that we have today.

Right, Im just saying that government had to grow BECAUSE of all those innovations.

Private sector invented the car....but do you think Ford would EVER pay for the highways so we can drive their vehicle?

Private sector made long-distance air travel a reality.....but how feasible would air travel be if there was no central air traffic control? Some companies might hire their own crews and pass the cost on to us....but others would say "fuck it" and decide that flying by sight was worth the risk.


Basically, the private sector NEVER looks at a the long term game. So government needs to come in and make sure the stuff isnt chaos. How big would the automotive industry be if there were no (decent) roads to drive on?

Thats always been rational and normal in america. Its only recently that people starting saying "derp herp government doesnt do anything" precisely because they do so many things so well.

If your flight gets delayed, it's NEVER because the federal air traffic controllers fucked up. It's because your wonderful private company didnt check their plane right and a red light is on.

Or weather, obviously.

 

[DEO3]

So, what exactly is wrong with our government? I mean, surely it's not supposed to work like this.

 

[Rubenov]

So, what exactly is wrong with our government? I mean, surely it's not supposed to work like this.

Nah, the system of checks and balances is a good one... the problem is our poor education system has led to dumbasses voting for other dumbasses to have control of that "check".

 

[TacticalFox88]

Nah, the system of checks and balances is a good one... the problem is our poor education system has led to dumbasses voting for other dumbasses to have control of that "check".

That's the ultimate flaw in a deomcracy and a republic. If you have an ignorant population, you might as well have a dictatorship

 

[PhoenixDark]

Who said we would default on August 3rd? Nobody has said that PD and stop lying like this.

August 2nd is the deadline, no?

 

[A Human Becoming]

August 2nd is the deadline, no?

That's what I've heard over and over.

 

[Crisis]

August 2nd is the deadline, no?

President Obama has said this like 50 billion times. So have a few credit rating agencies.

 

[Journeywalker]

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. This is the paradox of a capitalist system. With out a legit tax code reform or flat tax, its the best thing we got. I'm not saying that its not fair or isn't right but I know others probably would share my sentiment of walking into these conversations and talking plainly about what needs to be done. Again, I go back to my point on there can't be a conversation if people aren't willing to budge and compromise. In this day and age, there should be rage at both sides not just the prominent members of the parties.

You really think that a flat tax would help poor families? A flat tax would shift more of the tax burden on the poor and middle class. I agree with the need to compromise, but it's kind of difficult to compromise with someone that doesn't believe in math.

Zack Morris time-out
Tax cuts happened because of the surplus which means that tax revenues went down. I'd conclude that spending stayed the same. If revenue goes down, spending stays the same or increases, that is why we were in a deficit.

Inaccurate, short-sighted, and revisionist. A toxic combination. If a surplus is due to a bubble, and that bubble bursts in 2000, does it make sense to lower taxes in 2001 and 2003 when we already know that those incomes are unlikely to rebound? On top of that, should we keep those taxes low when our military spending increases due to two wars? The only thing, ironically, which kept the economy afloat was the inflating debt bubble, which inevitably burst in 2007/2008.

This also ignores the fact that seniors are increasing as a percentage of the population. Decades ago, we agreed that seniors should have a bare minimum of healthcare. Our taxes were set so that there was no surplus when (for simplicity) 60% of the population paid for the benefits of 40% of the population. But what happens when the baby boomers become seniors, and we refuse to raise taxes? 40% of the population needs to pay for the benefits of 60%. This double-fucks us. Even if (adjusted for inflation) the 40% of the population earns exactly the same amount of money (in total, not per-person) as the the baby boomers did during their working years (I don't think we do), we still face the crappy choices of:

1) Reducing the minimum care that seniors receive (dividing the pie among more people)
2) Redefining "senior" to 80+ so that more people die before they become eligible (feeding fewer people)
3) Spending more to get a bigger pie.

If we go with the last option, the taxes per person must increase as a percentage of individual incomes. If you subscribe to the ridiculous ideology that refuses to raise taxes under any circumstance, you are stuck with the first two.

 

[Incognito]

chris hayes mentioned it earlier and it's something i've seen in person, too. that is, the fact that a lot of people quite well understand the ramifications of the government defaulting on its debts yet still expressing the need for it to happen as a leash against government excess, a need to start over. for them, as hayes mentioned, it's sort of a moral imperative.

 

[speculawyer]

I clicked on Chris Cillizza's Fast Fix to see a stupid video on Grover Norquist:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/fast-fix/fast-fix-grover-norquist-effect-debt-ceiling-234453212.html

And I see this picture.

Wait . . . What is that in the background? He has a picture of that Almighty Onion Article up in his office. An article that basically says that he and the rest of the Bushies are assholes ready to ruin America! (And they did!)
http://www.theonion.com/articles/bush-our-long-national-nightmare-of-peace-and-pros,464/

The one that says things like this:

"For years, I tirelessly preached the message that Clinton must be stopped," conservative talk-radio host Rush Limbaugh said. "And yet, in 1996, the American public failed to heed my urgent warnings, re-electing Clinton despite the fact that the nation was prosperous and at peace under his regime. But now, thank God, that's all done with. Once again, we will enjoy mounting debt, jingoism, nuclear paranoia, mass deficit, and a massive military build-up."

and

Bush concluded his speech on a note of healing and redemption.

"We as a people must stand united, banding together to tear this nation in two," Bush said. "Much work lies ahead of us: The gap between the rich and the poor may be wide, be there's much more widening left to do. We must squander our nation's hard-won budget surplus on tax breaks for the wealthiest 15 percent. And, on the foreign front, we must find an enemy and defeat it."

He is an asshole, he knows it, and he is proud of it. He just doesn't give a fuck. Fuck you Grover.

 

[RoninChaos]

this may be due to the delicious Chimay i'm downing now, but i'm forever fascinated in why middle-class/poor individuals defend a privileged economic group that has disproportionally reaped economic gain over the last decade (as evidenced by ever rising income inequality) over, well, themsleves. effective tax rates for the top earners are at historic lows, yet there's a glutton of lower and middle class who think they should pay even less for some reason.

btw, when did Major Garret move to the National Journal? did he get fired by Fox?

It's because everybody thinks they'll be rich at some point. Some also think that poor people are simply lazy and rich people obviously worked hard as fuck for their money, so why should lazy people get it?

That kinda thing. It's pure bullshit, but it's what people believe.

All rich people are job creators now, too. I think that's interesting.

 

[RoninChaos]

understood. I actually would love to see a surplus again but who knows, maybe that is unrealistic of me.


Problem with the market of which has been an issue forever. Besides, any person (child or adult) that enters an ER would get treated. Again, the system we've been given.

That's an incredibly gross over simplification that glosses over any relevant talking points as to why the system is broken. You're obviously not a stupid person but this is an insanely lazy cop out. "Problem of the market" is complete and total bullshit. There's a reason why people have been trying to fix health care for the last 60 years. There's a reason why America spends the most money on health care out of any nation and our quality of care isn't up to par with other nationally subsidized health care systems. There are lots of reasons and I imagine you realize that despite your response. Treating peoples' health like an investment bond is fucked up.

I realize this may not be a popular opinion with some but taking care of people who can't take care of themselves, having systems in place to help people that couldn't obtain it any other way is the price america pays to not be Somalia. People can say "Well, this is the system we're given" and that can immediately be reversed to systems like welfare, some sort of universal health care standard, etc.

 

[jamesinclair]

You know, one dude killing 80 people in Norway really puts this whole debt ceiling theater game in perspective.

God damn.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

After this, I'm wondering what can Poli GAF tell me about John Bolton?

 

[besada]

I didn't mind having Kosmo around....he sounds just like my loony cousins....and spews the same dumb talking points, so I loved everyone's response to him which I, in turn, use over the dinner table usually resulting me owning them most of the time. Thanks PoliGAF.

Someone will be along shortly to replace him, I assure you. I don't think we've ever gone more than a couple of weeks without a Kosmo-like poster.

After this, I'm wondering what can Poli GAF tell me about John Bolton?

Contender for biggest douche on the planet. Appointed as Ambassador to the U.N. by Bush, even though he wanted to disband the U.N. Says stupid things without thinking. Of no real political importance anymore.

 

[besada]

That's the ultimate flaw in a deomcracy and a republic. If you have an ignorant population, you might as well have a dictatorship

And our Founding Fathers knew that, which is why they provided room for a strong fourth estate. Unfortunately, they conceived of news as a non-profit entity, since very few people made money on news then, or really up until the 60's and 70's.

Since the advent of profit-driven news, the fourth estate has been wrecked.

 

[Wthermans]

a Year of Frugality would be nice. Ultra high tax rates. Call for companies across the country to move to a 10/4 work week for the year, to save on operatinig costs for their businesses (electricity, mainly) and transportation/gas costs for everyone. This would help offset the tax increases with cuts in their necessary expenses. Encourage carpooling and walking/biking/using public transportation to get to work, even if it may take twice as long to get to/from work, for additional savings.


Get a year or two of surpluses in the trillions of dollars. People bitch about taxes, fine, we'll cut out the sustained high tax rates and just make it really really hurt for one or two years.

I swear that's the only way we're going to get anything done, and it would be the cheapest way to pay off/reduce the debt, too. (quickly, so the interest doesn't pile up).

It's clear republicans don't want any permanent actions to be taken, so we'll take the emergency actions instead, do it all in one fell swoop.

Fucking republicans.

That's a pipe dream. Many companies run 24/7.

 

[speculawyer]

After this, I'm wondering what can Poli GAF tell me about John Bolton?

He is a crazy war monger that suggests bombing Iran all the time.

 

[A Human Becoming]

After this, I'm wondering what can Poli GAF tell me about John Bolton?

I miss your old avatar. Bradley Manning ftw

 

[RustyNails]

After this, I'm wondering what can Poli GAF tell me about John Bolton?

John Bolton is a Christian Conservative fucknut. Of course he wanted this incident to be Islamically inspired so the clash of civilizations happens, skies split open in fire and brimstone, armageddon strikes and finally jebus comes down and saves the church john bolton goes to.

 

[thefit]

Good ol Grover out to do to the country the same thing he did to California.

 

[TacticalFox88]

He is a crazy war monger that suggests bombing Iran all the time.

Wasn't he also the one who said a War with Iran would stimulate the economy like WWII?

 

[ViperVisor]

After this, I'm wondering what can Poli GAF tell me about John Bolton?

John Bolton and Darfur

O'REILLY: ... I do not believe in standing by while people are slaughtered.

BOLTON: ... Our foreign policy should support American interests. Let the rest of the world support the rest of the world's interests.

He is a motherfucker who didn't wanna fight in Vietnam but wanted to die for the cause. That conversation from above is BS. He wants to wield the metaphorical AMERICA big dick he doesn't have *mustache is a compensating for something*. He just doesn't care to do it for Africans who's country is just a pawn on his board. But just fucking LOVES to bomb away on any Muslim land which could give cooties to Israel.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

Of course it isn't responsible for everything that we have today. But it is an integral part of our well being, and it is being assailed by extremists, and has been for decades now. This is the culmination of that effort. Our government is currently extremely underfunded for a modern society, and it is destroying our standard of living.

Can you compare our funding to other modern governments? I'm interested.

 

[Pctx]

That's an incredibly gross over simplification that glosses over any relevant talking points as to why the system is broken. You're obviously not a stupid person but this is an insanely lazy cop out. "Problem of the market" is complete and total bullshit. There's a reason why people have been trying to fix health care for the last 60 years. There's a reason why America spends the most money on health care out of any nation and our quality of care isn't up to par with other nationally subsidized health care systems. There are lots of reasons and I imagine you realize that despite your response. Treating peoples' health like an investment bond is fucked up.

I realize this may not be a popular opinion with some but taking care of people who can't take care of themselves, having systems in place to help people that couldn't obtain it any other way is the price america pays to not be Somalia. People can say "Well, this is the system we're given" and that can immediately be reversed to systems like welfare, some sort of universal health care standard, etc.

This is a basic smart phone response but I didn't mean that as a cop out... I guess I meant it more of symptom of our political structure. The unfortunate gift that we've been handed is a result of people not taking the industry seriously and that is unfortunate side affect.

Whether or not the government is the solution to that problem remains to be seen.

 

[besada]

Can you compare our funding to other modern governments? I'm interested.

I can!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

 

[Dead Man]

After this, I'm wondering what can Poli GAF tell me about John Bolton?

Bloody hell, what a numpty.

 

[Pctx]

You really think that a flat tax would help poor families? A flat tax would shift more of the tax burden on the poor and middle class. I agree with the need to compromise, but it's kind of difficult to compromise with someone that doesn't believe in math.





Inaccurate, short-sighted, and revisionist. A toxic combination. If a surplus is due to a bubble, and that bubble bursts in 2000, does it make sense to lower taxes in 2001 and 2003 when we already know that those incomes are unlikely to rebound? On top of that, should we keep those taxes low when our military spending increases due to two wars? The only thing, ironically, which kept the economy afloat was the inflating debt bubble, which inevitably burst in 2007/2008.

This also ignores the fact that seniors are increasing as a percentage of the population. Decades ago, we agreed that seniors should have a bare minimum of healthcare. Our taxes were set so that there was no surplus when (for simplicity) 60% of the population paid for the benefits of 40% of the population. But what happens when the baby boomers become seniors, and we refuse to raise taxes? 40% of the population needs to pay for the benefits of 60%. This double-fucks us. Even if (adjusted for inflation) the 40% of the population earns exactly the same amount of money (in total, not per-person) as the the baby boomers did during their working years (I don't think we do), we still face the crappy choices of:

1) Reducing the minimum care that seniors receive (dividing the pie among more people)
2) Redefining "senior" to 80+ so that more people die before they become eligible (feeding fewer people)
3) Spending more to get a bigger pie.

If we go with the last option, the taxes per person must increase as a percentage of individual incomes. If you subscribe to the ridiculous ideology that refuses to raise taxes under any circumstance, you are stuck with the first two.

Again, smartphone response....

Flat tax is more of a norm in which in theory and on paper makes sense. I figure a higher tax bracket would have to be imposed on people making over a certain amount. The problem right now is that people are not at all paying their fair share... Poor, middle class or rich. In terms of taxation, if we are talking about getting maximum profit, this makes sense.

In terms of how to pay for stuff... I am not saying in any way, shape or form that a tax increase isn't part of the compromise, but the justification of the increase is what Americans are not signining off on. In the private sector, I know that the taxes that corps pay (or don't pay depending on your school of thought) could be higher, but again businesses will bark that things are unfair.

Sometimes I wish private, public and non-profit could have a summit and figure out how to fix the systems we have in place. Unfortunately it seems people only care about themselves.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

I can!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Thanks man. So corporate revenue is one of the highest and personal is fairly low.

 

[Chichikov]

I clicked on Chris Cillizza's Fast Fix to see a stupid video on Grover Norquist:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/fast-fix/fast-fix-grover-norquist-effect-debt-ceiling-234453212.html

And I see this picture.

Wait . . . What is that in the background? He has a picture of that Almighty Onion Article up in his office. An article that basically says that he and the rest of the Bushies are assholes ready to ruin America! (And they did!)
http://www.theonion.com/articles/bush-our-long-national-nightmare-of-peace-and-pros,464/

The one that says things like this:


and


He is an asshole, he knows it, and he is proud of it. He just doesn't give a fuck. Fuck you Grover.

That's unexpected.
That onion piece is one of the most amazing articles they ever wrote, but why would he hang it?
Like, what's the underlining message?
They've been proven beyond right.

And if you're wondering, yes, the date is right.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

I can!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

The problem is a lot of corporations in the US don't actually pay at the corporate tax rate - loopholes, tax breaks, etc, etc.

e.g. GE din't pay any tax last year (I think it was GE) even though they made record Profits. Tech Companies get away from paying millions in taxes by some foreign money account loophole.

 

[besada]

Thanks man. So corporate revenue is one of the highest and personal is fairly low.

Sort of. Corporate revenue is set high, but with so many tax loopholes that the actual collected revenue puts us almost last on the list of corporate tax revenue. I can't remember the figure (and I've moved over to my iPad) but I think it’s something ridiculously low. One of the other guys will know what it is.

 

[Vanillalite]

Again, smartphone response....

Flat tax is more of a norm in which in theory and on paper makes sense. I figure a higher tax bracket would have to be imposed on people making over a certain amount. The problem right now is that people are not at all paying their fair share... Poor, middle class or rich. In terms of taxation, if we are talking about getting maximum profit, this makes sense.

In terms of how to pay for stuff... I am not saying in any way, shape or form that a tax increase isn't part of the compromise, but the justification of the increase is what Americans are not signining off on. In the private sector, I know that the taxes that corps pay (or don't pay depending on your school of thought) could be higher, but again businesses will bark that things are unfair.

Sometimes I wish private, public and non-profit could have a summit and figure out how to fix the systems we have in place. Unfortunately it seems people only care about themselves.

The ONLY reason American's aren't buying it is because the one's with the money are the one's trying to use their money, position, power, and lobbying to control the debate on the subject.

We had this debate the other day though about why an opposition sucks at forming together though and if it could ever possibly realistically happen. We had a varying response, and obviously a lot of it is all based on people's current mood (which is being pushed by the current situation).

 

[Byakuya769]

Quoting again to re-respond after re-reading. I think you ARE correctly reading me, because that's exactly what I'm suggesting. I'm saying Lincoln can't and shouldn't be judged for "giving away" freedom for northern slaves because:

a) the political reality (dominant hegemony, i guess) of the time
b) how things turned out in the end.

Yes, THATS EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING! The converse is unimaginable to me. Speaking of which, this is more or less the same conversation from the George Washington thread. Of COURSE you have to judge history in context. What's the other option?

How things turn out only matters once you weight what could have happened versus what did. If the position is that every compromise of the past was necessary and good, well then that leaves no responsibility to those who complicity impede progress.

Many of the compromises of that particular time has saddled the nation with a racial divide that is still alive and well over one-hundred years later. That whole attitude just leads to self-defeat. What can be accomplished is constantly seen as only what is probable. Not only are politicians not going to be expected to fervently fight for some idea that is right, now we sit back and let politicians lecture citizens on the reality of their inaction and how their inaction and compromise is really what's best? Give me a fucking break. Obama's been making compromises for the entirety of his first term, and all that's left him with is negotiating with a truculent class of Republicans even more vested in his defeat.

Compromise on the stimulus - worse economy that your opponents were able to run against you on and win, making any needed action now virtually impossible to do (yea.. that's great progress there!). Not to mention you've destroyed the case for Keynesian policy but sucking horribly at Keynesian policy.

Compromise on healthcare - present a conservative solution to healthcare problems, get no conservative votes and get left with a barely layman accessible bill that your opponents run against you on... AND WIN (making further needed changes even harder to make).

Compromise on extended the Bush era tax cuts, get good press for a day, but allow your opponents to continue to indoctrinate the populace with the idea that any tax increase is bad. Now you cannot even pass a budget deal that repeals those tax cuts for the highest of wage earners. What's worse, your excellent compromising lost you the ability to point out that Republicans were putting the tax cuts of all americans on the line for the top 1%.

And the story will continue with whatever hair brain scheme comes out of this debt ceiling circus.

BTW. Bilbo whatever the fuck the rest of your name is: I don't need a delusional federal employee who complains about those in his sector being bemoaned and attacked while constantly trumpeting republican talking points. You're not rational enough to make simple connections, so I'm not going take a history lesson from you very seriously.

 

[Cyan]

Thanks man. So corporate revenue is one of the highest and personal is fairly low.

No, those are nominal rates.

 

[empty vessel]

I can!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

I prefer this one: revenue as percent of GDP for developed countries: