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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags

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A Human Becoming

More than a Member
I wish I had taken the time in my only political science course in college to read the Federalist Papers seriously. While not on the same level as The Odyssey or Shakespeare, I found it difficult to comprehend. I have a hard and Kindle copy, but I still need some sort of guide or "Federalist Papers for Dummies".
 

besada

Banned
speculawyer said:
We don't have third parties because we don't have a parliamentary system with proportional representation. We have a 'winner take all' system that naturally devolves into a 2-party system.

If we want third parties, we pretty much have to rewrite the constitution. Or rewrite voting rules to be an 'instant run-off voting' system where you vote for your candidates in order of preference.

The only plurality voting specified in the Constitution is that of the President, and it has no opinion regarding how electors are chosen. You could change every single other election to proportional representation without touching the Constitution, including Senators and Congressmen.

I'm fine with changing that, but it's the last step in reforming voting, and barely needed. Given proportional representation in every other election, from cities up to the federal level, the importance of having it for the Executive is incredibly diminished, and not a bar to third parties at all.

Again, how we vote for everything other than President, is largely determined at the state level. The Constitution requires that we vote, and that we allow people of all color and genders over the age of 18 to vote, but it doesn't specify how we choose to vote.
 
So I had an idea for a tweak in the Senate that might help curb filibusters: instead of requiring 60 votes to block a filibuster, why not require 41 votes to invoke one? That way the owness falls on the opposition (or obstructing) party to whip up NO votes on a bill that would otherwise pass with a majority.

I'm sure there's a reason that this wouldn't work but it's early and I can't think of one right now, so I'm going with it.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
worldrunover said:
So I had an idea for a tweak in the Senate that might help curb filibusters: instead of requiring 60 votes to block a filibuster, why not require 41 votes to invoke one? That way the owness falls on the opposition (or obstructing) party to whip up NO votes on a bill that would otherwise pass with a majority.

I'm sure there's a reason that this wouldn't work but it's early and I can't think of one right now, so I'm going with it.
.... you just basically described cloture votes.
 

eznark

Banned
reilo said:
I remember the good old days when ToxicAdam and eznark would get banned once a month at least.

ToxicAdam is now a leftists so he is safe. I get all my bannings for mods misconstruing inside jokes on sports-gaf now.

Plus, I don't need to needle you guys, you hand wring all on your own.

also, screw you!
 

KHarvey16

Member
MisterNugNug said:
Hmmmm, wouldn't it be one trillion in cuts to the defense budget and another trillion in discretionary spending?

It'd be half of $4 trillion.

Clevinger said:
Does it? I thought it says, "You need to cut so and so amount. If you can't figure out what to cut, then everything, including defense, will be cut across the board."

If that's the case, defense will continue to be relatively unscathed.

That's the trigger if they don't cut additional spending by the end of the year. This is something different, assuming the analysis is accurate.
 

thefro

Member
If I were President Obama... I'd create a position for this guy to work on the economy

bill%20clinton.jpg


http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/06/19/it-s-still-the-economy-stupid.html
 

gcubed

Member
eznark said:
ToxicAdam is now a leftists so he is safe. I get all my bannings for mods misconstruing inside jokes on sports-gaf now.

Plus, I don't need to needle you guys, you hand wring all on your own.

also, screw you!

i've learned my lesson on the gaming side. I can't turn off the OT snark quickly, and that usually ends up in a 2 week hiatus, so i just rarely post on that side. Its takes some pretty strong or consistent shit to get you banned here, or so it seems. I'd ban you just for your avatar.

117k jobs added? That means the dow will only drop 400 today!
 

Loudninja

Member
Unemployment rate dips, economy adds 117K jobs
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hiring picked up slightly in July and the unemployment rate dipped to 9.1 percent, an optimistic sign after the worst day on Wall Street in nearly three years.

Employers added 117,000 jobs last month, the Labor Department said Friday. That's better than the past two months, which were also revised higher.

The mild improvement may ease investors' concerns after the Dow Jones industrial average plummeted more than 500 points over concerns that the U.S. may be entering another recession.

Still, the economy needs twice as many net jobs per month to rapidly reduce unemployment. The rate has topped 9 percent in every month except two since the recession officially ended in June 2009.

Stock future rose after the report was released.

Businesses added 154,000 jobs across many industries. Governments cut 37,000 jobs last month. Still, 23,000 of those losses were almost entirely because of the shutdown of Minnesota's state government.
The economy added 53,000 in May, up from an earlier estimate of 25,000, and 46,000 in June, up from 18,000. June's total was still the weakest in nine months.

Hiring in July was broad-based. Manufacturers added 24,000 jobs in July, as auto companies laid off fewer workers in July than usual. Retailers hired a net total of 26,000 employees. Employment in health care grew 31,000. Hotels and restaurants added 17,000
.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/July-jobs-data-could-heighten-apf-3530453809.html
 

Measley

Junior Member
teruterubozu said:
Clinton wants economic focus on green energy and infrastructure - same shit Obama was pushing at first, but now put on the back-burner.

Obama put it on the back burner because green energy and infrastructure has been blocked by the GOP in congress.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Obama put it on the back burner because green energy and infrastructure has been blocked by the GOP in congress.

Obama and the Democrats had a 500 billion dollar blank check to do whatever they wanted with the stimulus bill. Then chose to punt on the energy bill (after terribly botching negotiations for months) in leiu of health care reform.

But if myopic, defeatist talking points get you through the day, I don't want to stand in your way.
 
Poligaf, why are "individualists" so focused on not liking handouts?

What's the cultural relation or origin to it? People don't like others getting something that they think that they don't deserve, but will turn around and take hand outs.

Why is welfare bad, culturally?
 

Evlar

Banned
ssolitare said:
Poligaf, why are "individualists" so focused on not liking handouts?

What's the cultural relation or origin to it? People don't like others getting something that they think that they don't deserve, but will turn around and take hand outs.

Why is welfare bad, culturally?
It's a shame response; one of the few that is still powerful in the generally brazen, self-centered modern American culture.
 

gcubed

Member
A Human Becoming said:
11,348.64 -35.04 (-0.31%)
Real-time: 10:52AM EDT

Wasn't enough for Wall Street. :(

seriously? -35 is a HUGE win. It would have been a blood bath again without those numbers.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Is Obama really going to push for free trade deals as a centerpiece for a jobs initiative? After so vehemently (and successfully) denouncing NAFTA during the campaign? Christ.

Just tie it in with an unemployment extension for added ironic effect.
 

Big-E

Member
besada said:
The correct place to start a third party is at the city level, then the state. States control voting laws and who gets on the ballot. If any third party were serious, they'd be spending every penny they had trying to get into state legislatures, where they might actually do some good. You'd be surprised, though, at how few third parties have any idea what the real barriers to their success are. I've worked with a half-dozen third parties, and none of them from the Socialist, to the Greens, to the Libertarians understand how the party system controls electoral politics or what they might be able to do about it.

Same sort of deal happened with the Federal Green Party in Canada. Before they would campaign like the other parties, on a national level when they had no hope at all. Last election they focused more on a few areas where they knew they had a chance of getting elected and they were finally able to win a seat. You got to crawl before you can walk.
 

eznark

Banned
Only market surprise to me this morning is the lack of volume in commodities. After the calamity I expected more action.

What a boring morning.
 

Zzoram

Member
Big-E said:
Same sort of deal happened with the Federal Green Party in Canada. Before they would campaign like the other parties, on a national level when they had no hope at all. Last election they focused more on a few areas where they knew they had a chance of getting elected and they were finally able to win a seat. You got to crawl before you can walk.

Greens in Canada are pretty dumb. Almost all their candidates are unelectable. They run 20something BAs working at coffee shops, nobody takes them seriously.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
ToxicAdam said:
Obama and the Democrats had a 500 billion dollar blank check to do whatever they wanted with the stimulus bill. Then chose to punt on the energy bill (after terribly botching negotiations for months) in leiu of health care reform.

But if myopic, defeatist talking points get you through the day, I don't want to stand in your way.


So you don't place blame on the GOP at all?
 

thefro

Member
reggieandTFE said:
Why does he need Clinton? He's already following the same Republican-lite economic policies. His administration is currently arguing with a straight face that new free trade deals will be job creators!

Clinton is an effective communicator at selling his ideas to the public.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
reggieandTFE said:
Why does he need Clinton? He's already following the same Republican-lite economic policies. His administration is currently arguing with a straight face that new free trade deals will be job creators!


He's also arguing that there's no contradiction between cutting deficits and creating jobs. Something that I didn't think he'd say for some reason.
 

Zzoram

Member
reggieandTFE said:
Why does he need Clinton? He's already following the same Republican-lite economic policies. His administration is currently arguing with a straight face that new free trade deals will be job creators!

It will, in Brazil.
 
ToxicAdam said:
Next year is going to be another incumbent bloodbath.


link

The bad thing is that 97% of Americans will have no idea which party is being the asshole in this mess. They'll just go with who they usually vote for, or worse they'll blame the party "in charge".

speculawyer said:
We don't have third parties because we don't have a parliamentary system with proportional representation. We have a 'winner take all' system that naturally devolves into a 2-party system.

If we want third parties, we pretty much have to rewrite the constitution. Or rewrite voting rules to be an 'instant run-off voting' system where you vote for your candidates in order of preference.

How likely is this to every happen in the next 30 years?
 

Chichikov

Member
besada said:
Everyone wants to start at the federal level, which is crazy, because federal politics is entirely party dependent. If you're an independent at the federal level, you're still caucusing with either the Democrats or the Republicans, or you have no power.

The correct place to start a third party is at the city level, then the state. States control voting laws and who gets on the ballot. If any third party were serious, they'd be spending every penny they had trying to get into state legislatures, where they might actually do some good. You'd be surprised, though, at how few third parties have any idea what the real barriers to their success are. I've worked with a half-dozen third parties, and none of them from the Socialist, to the Greens, to the Libertarians understand how the party system controls electoral politics or what they might be able to do about it.

The best of them are probably the Libertarians, who waste a shitpot of money on big name federal candidates, but at least have slowly come to recognize that party building happens locally. Unfortunately, the position they mostly can win are dogcatcher-level positions. The number of independent state legislators is still woefully small. And yet, it's state law that determines who gets on the ballot, and what hurdles have to be cleared, not to mention whether electors are handled proportionately or not (which is the big issue they should all be fighting for if they hope to have a chance at a federal position.)

Most of the independent state legislators were elected as either Democrats or Republicans and then later changed their affiliation. Vermont is probably the best in regards to independents, and they have a total of seven in the House and two in the Senate, out of one hundred and fifty in the House and thirty in the Senate. New York has a handful of "independent Democrats" which is about as meaningless as treating Lieberman as a real independent.
Great post.
And generally speaking, local governments have much more immediate impact on people's life and can wield much more power than most people imagine.

The problem is that local government is full of crazy.
Seriously, if you think Washington is bad, talk a walk on the wild side and go to your state's capitol or city hall.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Weird puppet shows in Olympia. I watched crazy eyes glitter in the dark near the municipal building. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears on Boehner's cheeks...

But seriously, while I do absolutely agree it's the way to go, I shudder to think what the establishment reaction will be if the local order of bipartisan things is threatened in a meaningful way.
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
A Human Becoming said:
Now it's starting to plunge lol

11280.79 -102.89‎ (-0.90%‎) Aug 5 11:18am ET

If we can keep it to < 1% drop, I guess that's a "win".
down at -1.50% now and it's not even lunchtime. if you want to take this morning's opening rally as a starting point, it's looking a lot like a repeat of yesterday.

the ftse is racing it to the bottom.

edit: -1.90%
 
Meanwhile, in Wisconsin

The Wisconsin Democratic Party on Tuesday called for an investigation into whether a conservative group tried to suppress turnout in next week's recall elections targeting Republican state senators by telling voters that absentee ballots received a day after election day would be counted.

Meanwhile, elections regulators said the Democratic National Committee promised to stop calling voters in one of the Republicans' districts after it gave some of his constituents the wrong election date in automated calls last week.

What's going on in cheese land...
 

GhaleonEB

Member
ghst said:
down at -1.50% now and it's not even lunchtime. if you want to take this morning's opening rally as a starting point, it's looking a lot like a repeat of yesterday.

the ftse is racing it to the bottom.

edit: -1.90%
The market does not rule all. It had gotten out way (WAY) ahead of the real pace of recovery. I for one am glad to see it brought back down to earth a bit.

Jobs report was decent. I'm encouraged by the upward revisions to the past two months (56,000 total), after last month saw net downward revisions. Previous months tend to get revised down when job growth is slowing, and up when pace is improving. Hopefully we see that trend continue a bit.

Another silver lining was the increase in hourly wages. Though the pace of hiring is far too slow overall.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
GhaleonEB said:
The market does not rule all. It had gotten out way (WAY) ahead of the real pace of recovery. I for one am glad to see it brought back down to earth a bit.

Jobs report was decent. I'm encouraged by the upward revisions to the past two months (56,000 total), after last month saw net downward revisions. Previous months tend to get revised down when job growth is slowing, and up when pace is improving. Hopefully we see that trend continue a bit.

Another silver lining was the increase in hourly wages. Though the pace of hiring is far too slow overall.


Well the stock market is a measure of how companies are doing too (obviously not just the economy) so since many companies are/were making record profits, doesn't it make sense that the stock market was going up like crazy?
 

GhaleonEB

Member
mckmas8808 said:
Well the stock market is a measure of how companies are doing too (obviously not just the economy) so since many companies are/were making record profits, doesn't it make sense that the stock market was going up like crazy?
Over the long run, spikes in the markets due to earnings alone tend to come back down to earth if the economy is lagging significantly. So I was expecting a correction or two along the way.

Though, the European austerity fest is just deepening their financial woes, which is one of the main sparks right now. Of course, we've decided in our wisdom to emulate their approach.
 

tokkun

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
Meanwhile, in Wisconsin



What's going on in cheese land...

Actually that story gets worse: the mis-dated absentee ballots were fake.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/08/01/284603/koch-wisconsin-dirty-trick/

The “Absentee Ballot Application Processing Center” P.O. Box listed on the last page of the mailer is registered to the Wisconsin Family Action PAC, a right-wing advocacy group, not an election board or actual absentee ballot processing center for the state of Wisconsin

Between this, the Republicans running fake candidates in the Democratic primary, and the Voter ID law and subsequent suppression, politics has never been so dirty here.
 

loosus

Banned
Yeah, the jobs numbers are really good, considering the circumstances. Actually, they're excellent.

And the number would have been even higher had local governments not been laying off (again) in droves. Seriously, people say that government payroll is too big, but government has been the leading sector for layoffs this year and is the sector that has actually contracted in net payroll. In July, government jobs decreased by 37,000, although 23,000 of those were because of the Minnesota state-government shutdown, so I guess most of the 23,000 will return.

The private sector added a net of 154,000 jobs, which is getting damn-near healthy territory. Government is the real drag.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
ToxicAdam said:
Is Obama really going to push for free trade deals as a centerpiece for a jobs initiative? After so vehemently (and successfully) denouncing NAFTA during the campaign? Christ.

Just tie it in with an unemployment extension for added ironic effect.

He never fully denounced NAFTA. He made some vague speeches in Ohio about reworking it to play to the Ohio unions but if you read his book he is clearly in favor of trade agreements.
 
Hey, PoliGAF, a question for settling bar bets and such:

What numbers and stats can be used to compare how liberal or conservative an era we live in? Is there a resource one can use to quickly and easily compare tax rates, areas of spending, amount of regulation, etc. from different decades (or semi-decades)?
 

Eljay

Neo Member
loosus said:
Yeah, the jobs numbers are really good, considering the circumstances. Actually, they're excellent.

And the number would have been even higher had local governments not been laying off (again) in droves. Seriously, people say that government payroll is too big, but government has been the leading sector for layoffs this year and is the sector that has actually contracted in net payroll. In July, government jobs decreased by 37,000, although 23,000 of those were because of the Minnesota state-government shutdown, so I guess most of the 23,000 will return.

The private sector added a net of 154,000 jobs, which is getting damn-near healthy territory. Government is the real drag.
Healthy? Do you understand that 154,000 is still below keeping up with population growth? Even if we somehow started exceeding 200,000 a month we'd still be stuck replacing lost jobs for the rest of the decade.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Eljay said:
Healthy? Do you understand that 154,000 is still below keeping up with population growth? Even if we somehow started exceeding 200,000 a month we'd still be stuck replacing lost jobs for the rest of the decade.


Unfortunately a lot of those jobs were there due to an artificial economy. Our number 1 goal shouldn't be to get to where we were before.
 
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