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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags

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Zzoram

Member
Mystic Theurge said:
Thanks, but as I'm researching, I'm getting conflicting reports.

Wiki says that the private-public split (2006) is 63.7% and 31% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funding_of_science)

An article from JAMA says the private-public split (2003) is 57% and 28% (http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/294/11/1333)

What people forget is how the profit is split. 100% private.

If the government was doing all of the research, it would get most of the money (minus the cut to companies that manufacture the drugs based on government research), which would pay for the research. Unlike private companies, the government wouldn't spend twice their R&D budget on marketing to consumers through television, celebrity endorsements, etc, so they could charge a lot less and still make enough money to cover all the R&D, or charge slightly less and do even more R&D than is done under the current system.

Government research dollars often go to graduate students and universities, so it would simultaneously improve education.
 

Evlar

Banned
BigSicily said:
This is exemplar of why this thread needs to be purged; it's all hand-waving with no sign of genuine understanding. A back-of-the-envelope calculation, that everyone here should be able to do and would lead one to the conclusion that it's better to just not post, is omitted. This took around 10 minutes:

According to the US Energy Information Agency, the US petroleum consumption is 19,148,000 barrels/day (1).

We'll define your nebulous term that means nothing, "fractional change," as the actual, rigorous term that everyone who graduated highschool understands to be the standard deviation, of monthly petroleum costs for 2010 and 2011 separately. IL Hub (2) was easy to find and will map to movements* in other basin/hubs, as well as futures.

2010 IL Hub costs:
Mean cost/barrel: $71.28
Standard Dev: $4.69​

2011 IL Hub costs:
Mean cost/barrel: $90.33
Standard Dev: $6.94​

That yields a mean supply induced shock to the economy of approximately 7% of the cost of crude, or $6 bucks/barrel as per the two year period.

19,148,000 barrels * $6 = $114.9 million/day, or $3.45 Billion/month.
This is the increased cost the average fluctuation in petroleum took out of household budgets. It is a virtual tax on users.

You then proceed to compare this to the FAA shut down -- a one-off event -- which nets $28.6 million/day in taxes (3). Hmm... even to a first approximation you should have come to the realization the article you posted was ideological bullshit (as if the url didn't predispose that).


Furthermore, and vastly more importantly, there are widespread downstream effects of the non-linear costs of petroleum though the economy and it's productivity that are missed in a straight numerical comparison. This is what happens when enormous amounts of the economy are dependent on refined products that have various pricing lag times (eg. crack spread). There is a higher relative 'multiplier' effect on petroleum prices through the economy. Your comparison is utterly ridiculous at any deeper level of study.


At some level, your post is representative of why our schools are failing us. You are patently unable to think, to actually utilize knowledge and compute what's not hand fed to you -- in this case by thinkprogress. All of us, as we approach the types of problems we expect the 21st century to hold, should be able to have a basic conceptual framework by which to objective measure if something is valid. Fermi was brilliant at these back-of-the-napkin calculations. And you have no excuse here, the basic calculations are simplistic to an extreme. How can you approach complex issues like the national debt, international relations, investing, molecular biotechnology, or hell, even know if the dosage of insulin you need to give your mother is in the ballpark of being correct if you can't solve the above? It's shameful.

Unfortunately, your post is also indicative of why poligaf is a cesspool and waste of effort. Lets be honest, it's not a place for actual debate. It's overwhelmingly populated by leftists, moderated by leftists, and is used not as a place whereby a point-of-view can be examined, but one in which a non-leftist opinion is attacked 10-15 times in quick repetition while leftists are free to post utter crap because the cost-benefit of actually replying is ridiculous. It's a support-group for like minded kids to feel that their positions are valid and worthy.

To borrow from Feymann, poligaf is to the real world as masturbation is to sex. It might feel good, but you're still just touching yourself.


* EDIT: For clarity, the movement is what's important, not the absolute price as we assume zero-sum at this level.
Wow that's a lot of text, and so well formatted too! Can I just zoom in on...
At some level, your post is representative of why our schools are failing us. You are patently unable to think, to actually utilize knowledge and compute what's not hand fed to you -- in this case by thinkprogress.
Chrome's handy-dandy History search function tells me I haven't been to thinkprogress on this terminal, from which I do the bulk of my browsing, as far back as the log goes... May 11 at least. But keep fishing!
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
BigSicily said:
I would like to comment on this and the replies so far, given my perspective in the pipeline, I just don't have the time right now.


Are you going to argue that we don't have some forms of socialized medicine now? Because I can't you actually arguing the opposite side like I believe you may.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
If the Dow dropped to its lowest point since 2008, maybe that means we'll have 2008 Obama to set things right?

LOL.
 
Oblivion said:
If the Dow dropped to its lowest point since 2008, maybe that means we'll have 2008 Obama to set things right?

LOL.

Maybe Romney will "suspend" his campaign to fix the problem.





Though it's kinda hard to suspend something that's already in suspended animation.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
How Bush Killed Bin Laden: What’s Really In Huckabee’s 9/11 Cartoon
Evan McMorris-Santoro | August 4, 2011, 2:45PM



Learn-Our-History-9-11-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg





TPM watched Mike Huckabee's new children's educational video about 9/11 so you don't have to. What's inside? A lot of talk about how "most Muslims" aren't terrorists, a reference or two to The Kite Runner, more than a couple scenes extolling America's commitment to Israel -- and no mention whatsoever of President Obama authorizing the mission that took out bin Laden.

Plus there's a really weird plot-line centering around a pre-teen girl never having known that her mother, with whom she lives in an archetypal American small town, was the town's mayor just a few years ago. But that's not even the strangest hole in Huckabee's telling of the 9/11 story.

By now you've heard the outrage: the latest entry in Huckabee's series of history videos for kids has raised hackles among some who accuse him of profiteering from the decade-old tragedy. On Thursday, Huckabee's company responded to the critics with a long statement accusing them of ginning up a story that doesn't exist.

For those who forget, cashing in on 9/11 has been a American cottage industry since the rubble still smoldered -- and much of what's out there for sale doesn't try to educate about the tragedy that's defined the last decade. So, perhaps Huckabee deserves some credit for trying to teach kids about what for them is American history as nebulous as the Iran-Contra Affair seems to the mostly 30-and-under set who make up the TPM reporting staff.

Also, if you're just tuning in, this 9/11 video is just one in a series of tapes about America's past that Huckabee's company, Learn Our History, is cranking out this year. The goal of the videos is to reject "the 'blame America first' attitude prevalent in today's teaching," as the company's marketing materials put it, and offer up an "unbiased" view of the nation's historical events. The first video was about Ronald Reagan, and you can read just about how unbiased that one is here.

So -- what does Huckabee's "unbiased" view of 9/11 look like? A lot of praise for the PATRIOT act (which it, should be said, many conservatives don't like), a lot of praise for the Department of Homeland Security, a lot of praise for Israel and the clear implication that President George W. Bush was responsible for the death of Osama bin Laden.

The simple hook connecting all of Huckabee's videos centers around a multi-hued gang of kids from the fictional Amsterdam, USA who develop a time machine and proceed to use it to learn the facts about America's past. The 9/11 video opens on a school assembly in Amsterdam, where the principal introduces a day of reflection about 9/11 and members of the armed forces to meet with students.

On cue, one of our heroes' public school liberal propaganda kicks in.

"I can't believe Principal Clark invited them here," one of the characters scoffs, gesturing to the military guests. "Doesn't he know that fighting is wrong?"

"These people are defending our freedom," her friend responds. "Isn't that worth fighting for?"

And we're off.


The kids venture back in time to the site of the World Trade Center, where they witness the first plane strike the towers and a computer-animated version of all the horror and bravery that immediately followed that moment. Then, like most Americans on that morning, they try to figure out what the heck just happened. And so they travel back to March 3, 2001, where they witness an al-Qaeda meeting led by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

We then learn the pretty standard conservative dogma that it was hatred of America's freedoms and way of life, as well as outrage over America's alliance with Israel, that led to the attacks. There is no mention of the days when America armed and trained the one-time freedom fighters that would help start al-Qaeda, or other more gray-area history that "biased" historians love to bring up.

While in Afghanistan the time-traveling kids meet a girl living under the Taliban who explains she's not allowed to fly her kite. Pretty quickly our heroes disabuse her of her indoctrinated anti-American notions; so much so that she's soon explaining to them that al-Qaeda hates Israel because it's a symbol of democracy -- even though she didn't seem to know what that concept was only moments earlier. Anyway, she serves a function: through her the audience is made to understand that "most Muslims" aren't terrorists. Shortly after that dazzling revelation we're whooshed back to the days directly following 9/11 when we see Americans coming together (and one character learning her mother used to be the town's mayor. Even she says, "How could I not know this?")

On the policy front, the kids time travel their way to Sept. 17, 2001, where the war in Afghanistan is being planned in Bush's Oval Office. As should be expected, Bush gets a lot of play in the video -- his bullhorn on the WTC rubble speech is played, and then we get the scene of him calling for bin Laden to be captured "dead or alive."

There's some talk about the importance of intelligence gathering (no mention of wiretaps, warrantless or otherwise, or water-boarding) and then we move on to talk about the world since 9/11. The kids are warned to stay vigilant, and then told that vigilance has paid off, as bin Laden's death has demonstrated. No mention of the operation that killed him -- or the president who ordered it.

The overall message: stay frosty -- the terrorists are still out there.

"Weren't there a bunch of attempted attacks after this?" one character asks while the team stops off in December, 2001.

"Yes, but because of our increased awareness and security, they were stopped before they got started," says another, as figures walk by a "If You See Something, Say Something" sign.



####################

Look I know many conservatives have a different view for why terrorists from the middle east want to kill us than I do. That's fine. But didn't the GOP state 2 years ago that it was Obama that wanted to indoctrinate our kids by giving a speech to high school kids?

So what would they say about this kids cartoon literally talking about American history with changed facts? Pass because its Huckabee?
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
TacticalFox88 said:
At this rate all of right-leaning GAF will be banned. What happened to Kosmo?!
I remember the good old days when ToxicAdam and eznark would get banned once a month at least.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
mckmas8808 said:
How Bush Killed Bin Laden: What’s Really In Huckabee’s 9/11 Cartoon
Evan McMorris-Santoro | August 4, 2011, 2:45PM

So what would they say about this kids cartoon literally talking about American history with changed facts? Pass because its Huckabee?

To be fair, isn't most history in our history books like this? I had a history professor in college tell us that a ton of the stuff included in history textbooks is complete bunk.
 

Zzoram

Member
Plinko said:
To be fair, isn't most history in our history books like this? I had a history professor in college tell us that a ton of the stuff included in history textbooks is complete bunk.

They're usually not completely made up, just skewed interpretations that always result when winners tell the story of how they beat the losers.
 
reilo said:
I remember the good old days when ToxicAdam and eznark would get banned once a month at least.
I'm not sure if the more extreme batches of new conservative posters make them look better by contrast, or they've just softened a bit from hanging around poliGAF so much.
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
So what do the conservatives on gaf think should be done to get us out of this mess. Same with liberals. If you had total control of congress and the presidency, what would you do?
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Doc Holliday said:
So what do the conservatives on gaf think should be done to get us out of this mess. Same with liberals. If you had total control of congress and the presidency, what would you do?
Ban partisan districting.
 
thekad said:
BigSicily
Banned
(Today, 05:02 PM)
Reply | Quote

LOL

I can't think of him name calling or derailing threads - he simply critiqued the way business is done here; the complaint wasn't new or offensive, and in some ways rings true.

sigh
 

Cyan

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
I can't think of him name calling or derailing threads - he simply critiqued the way business is done here; the complaint wasn't new or offensive, and in some ways rings true.

sigh
I imagine this is what did it:
At some level, your post is representative of why our schools are failing us. You are patently unable to think, to actually utilize knowledge and compute what's not hand fed to you -- in this case by thinkprogress.
... How can you approach complex issues like the national debt, international relations, investing, molecular biotechnology, or hell, even know if the dosage of insulin you need to give your mother is in the ballpark of being correct if you can't solve the above? It's shameful.
 

Chichikov

Member
Doc Holliday said:
So what do the conservatives on gaf think should be done to get us out of this mess. Same with liberals. If you had total control of congress and the presidency, what would you do?
Campaign finance reform.
I really don't think you can fix the system without it.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
PhoenixDark said:
I can't think of him name calling or derailing threads - he simply critiqued the way business is done here; the complaint wasn't new or offensive, and in some ways rings true.

sigh
He basically used a lot of words to call Evlar "stupid", and then he topped it off with this:
Unfortunately, your post is also indicative of why poligaf is a cesspool and waste of effort.
He sure put in a ton of effort and still ended up contributing nothing but partisan diatribe.
 
PhoenixDark said:
I can't think of him name calling or derailing threads - he simply critiqued the way business is done here; the complaint wasn't new or offensive, and in some ways rings true.

sigh

No, it was just him from go speaking about how persecuted he is and how PoliGAF needs to be purged. He is incapable of simple debating the issue. He resorts immediately to 'Woe is me, you all make fun of me, you all are mean to me, you all don't understand what I know, you all don't appreciate me.' It gets tiring.
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Chichikov said:
Campaign finance reform.
I really don't think you can fix the system without it.


Yea that seems like the big one huh. How the hell could we pull that off with the obscene of money already involved :/
 

KtSlime

Member
Chichikov said:
Campaign finance reform.
I really don't think you can fix the system without it.

This, but what 'self-respecting' politician would decide to get off of the gravy train, and be able to convince his peers to do the same. This is why no real change will ever occur, and why the US is fucked.
 

Chichikov

Member
ivedoneyourmom said:
This, but what 'self-respecting' politician would decide to get off of the gravy train, and be able to convince his peers to do this same. This is why no real change will ever occur, and why the US is fucked.
A politician who is at risk of losing his seat.

But yeah, until the public demand it, it ain't gonna happen.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Chichikov said:
A politician who is at risk of losing his seat.

But yeah, until the public demand it, it ain't gonna happen.
I think it's abundantly clear that "what the public demands" has no meaning to most politicians.
 
Zzoram said:
What people forget is how the profit is split. 100% private.

If the government was doing all of the research, it would get most of the money (minus the cut to companies that manufacture the drugs based on government research), which would pay for the research. Unlike private companies, the government wouldn't spend twice their R&D budget on marketing to consumers through television, celebrity endorsements, etc, so they could charge a lot less and still make enough money to cover all the R&D, or charge slightly less and do even more R&D than is done under the current system.

Government research dollars often go to graduate students and universities, so it would simultaneously improve education.

A couple of other points: the data include clinical studies that industry conducts. These studies shouldn't really be included if innovation is what we are looking at. As well, many of these studies are just waste, because pharmaceutical companies, for example, might conduct many failed trials in order to obtain the requisite number of successful trials to obtain approval. From the JAMA article: "However, the growth in total spending obscures some changes in how that money is spent. Although the proportions of basic and applied federal spending have remained constant, pharmaceutical companies have increasingly emphasized clinical trials."

Suffice it to say, the raw numbers aren't sufficient to tell the whole story. Add to that that private industry may be conducting research, but it matters what it is researching. For example, there have long been complaints about so-called orphan diseases like ALS, which are rare. Private industry has little motivation to study them, because there isn't as much money in it.

This is why it is critical that research be rationally planned and not left to the devices of the so-called "market" (which doesn't really exist in the context of medicine and health care).
 
ivedoneyourmom said:
This, but what 'self-respecting' politician would decide to get off of the gravy train, and be able to convince his peers to do the same. This is why no real change will ever occur, and why the US is fucked.


If it's important to the people, one would imagine politicians would fight for it. However, the most polically active group of people in the country care more about gays not marrying, babies being killed, Mexicans crossing the border and lowering taxes on the rich to "create" jobs. To be honest, I don't hear much from any group regarding this subject.

I would imagine it would take a concentrted effort from both sides of America to get anything accomplished.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
LovingSteam said:
No, it was just him from go speaking about how persecuted he is and how PoliGAF needs to be purged. He is incapable of simple debating the issue. He resorts immediately to 'Woe is me, you all make fun of me, you all are mean to me, you all don't understand what I know, you all don't appreciate me.' It gets tiring.
My favorite line in his final (?) epic:

You are patently unable to think, to actually utilize knowledge and compute what's not hand fed to you....​
When his post is a classic case of regurgitating random data without in any way taking a moment to comprehend what's he's responding to. It's like an unusually verbose forum bot wrote it.
 

Zzoram

Member
Both parties should have a set campaign budget that is equal. No donations allowed from any individuals or organizations. Nobody else allowed to run political or campaign advertisements.

That would essentially eliminate the entire lobbying system.
 
empty vessel said:
Aren't you the guy who can't tell the difference between an assertion that (1) increasing income inequality in a society leaves most people worse off than they would have been absent the increase and an assertion that (2) increasing income inequality leaves most people poorer in real terms than before the increase?

Because whenever I make point (1), you never fail to respond that point (2) isn't true. Just checking.
He's also the guy who made the claim that Waterboarding is "torture-lite" in an attempt to extricate Bush W and his Neohawk circle from crimes relating to torture. It's not gentlemanly to talk behind someone's back when they have no recourse to respond, but I just wanted to point out that BS' opinions are lacking objectivity.
 

Chichikov

Member
BigSicily said:
We'll define your nebulous term that means nothing, "fractional change," as the actual, rigorous term that everyone who graduated highschool understands to be the standard deviation, of monthly petroleum costs for 2010 and 2011 separately
Oh, and by the way, I just want to point at that statement and laugh.
Not politically, but mathematically.

I generally try to not pile on people, but I feel there's enough unwarranted dickery in that post to make an exception...
 

Clevinger

Member
reilo said:
I think it's abundantly clear that "what the public demands" has no meaning to most politicians.

If people actually protested en mass and consistently, then yeah it does. At the very least to help shape the debate.

Instead, people are apathetic. The only large protests we have are for dumb shit like Glenn Beck/Tea Party and The Daily Show (not the show itself, just its crappy protest).
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Watching jay carney today was extremely frustrating.

Question from Jake Tapper:

"What is the president doing to spur job growth"

Answer:

Fuel efficiency standards


oh the other answer:

"Tax cuts"
 

Averon

Member
Doc Holliday said:
Watching jay carney today was extremely frustrating.

Question from Jake Tapper:

"What is the president doing to spur job growth"

Answer:

Fuel efficiency standards


Pretty pathetic, but they don't have a lot of options. A jobs program is out of the question with this congress. And the talk of a new stimulus will get you laughed out of Washington. In other words, we're on our own for the foreseeable future. Just the way the tea party/GOP wants it.
 

XMonkey

lacks enthusiasm.
PhoenixDark said:
I can't think of him name calling or derailing threads - he simply critiqued the way business is done here; the complaint wasn't new or offensive, and in some ways rings true.

sigh
Fuck him and the high horse he rides in on. This is me taking the low road, and I really don't give a shit about catching flak for that. He doesn't deserve any respect.
 
PhoenixDark said:
I can't think of him name calling or derailing threads - he simply critiqued the way business is done here; the complaint wasn't new or offensive, and in some ways rings true.

sigh

I'm guessing he had been specifically warned for that type of post and the tone he usually brings to the discussion.

Disregarding whatever mods have said to him, I and a few others have explained to him in depth why he is so off-putting, yet he continued with the same attitude.

Plus, he asked for a purge, and got one. No sympathy.

Well, a little sympathy if he can present a Doctor's note validating besada's assessment of him.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So what do the conservatives on gaf think should be done to get us out of this mess. Same with liberals. If you had total control of congress and the presidency, what would you do?
Instate myself as benevolent dictator. Then, as dictator, I would command that, upon my death, things go back to the way they were. Would only need twenty or so years to turn things around.

Things I'd do otherwise:
* Lower corporate taxes down to 15%
* Simplify personal tax code by eliminating deductions outside of child deductions and tax all income equally (interest, capital gains, etc.)
* Let tax cuts expire and go back to Clinton era levels
* Create a tax bracket for those making over $5M at 45%
* Universal health care for every child under the age of 18 (easy to sell to public as "protecting those who are the most vulnerable", "no family ought to go bankrupt taking care of their child" etc., sets up long term movement to universal health care)
* Abolish the debt ceiling - when Congress votes on budgets, it automatically votes to honor all promises made
* Stimulus package involving reworking the electrical grid, investment in fiber, and reworking transportation grid
* Raise the gas tax
 

Cygnus X-1

Member
Souldriver said:
And in the next weeks a new American revolution will break out.

No dude, I'm completely serious. I talked to en economic expert last week and he told me clearly that the strong EU countries will drop out of Euro in just some months, Maybe weeks, Germany will be the first one probably.
 
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