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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags

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leroidys

Member
eznark said:
I haven't really seen much victory claiming from the left outside of Leroidys on here. Even if they defend both seats next week, they are in the exact same spot they were in February. The only place the state GOP has had breaks is with the budget fix and that shit is sailed. Everything on the rest of the agenda will go party lines. The only thing the state dems got was a larger bill at whichever Rockford hotel they decide to flee to if another contentious bill comes up.

Hell, even Mordecai Lee (big time lefty professor go-to political analyst in Milwaukee) is giving up the ghost on a Walker recall. Flat out, it was a defeat for the democrats. Splitting the senate would have been a small win but the goal was to take the senate.

There is still a tiny, slim chance that should both democrats win next week Dale Schultz will flip (he voted against the GOP on the budget fix) in which case you'd have to revisit last night.


I never called it a victory, I called into question the assertion that it was a victory for the Republicans, that is all.
 

Enron

Banned
reggieandTFE said:
Because 401(k)s and 403(b)s are glorified savings accounts that have helped funnel billions of dollars to Wall Street while destroying retirement security in this country? How can some one look at the insanity of the Dow over the last couple of weeks and be advocating to put more money into that rigged system?

People that do not know of what they speak should keep their mouths shut.
 

Enron

Banned
Chichikov said:
You can argue his points or let it go.
Those drive-by name calling posts contribute nothing.

I didn't call anyone names.

401ks are long-term investments. Every now and again I come across people like this fellow that think that 401ks are a big scam - ok smart guy, explain yourself. And then they always (in a downturn) throw out the "Look at the market, how can anyone say this is a good idea???!!!" card - look, you aren't supposed to be daytrading. Sure you lose value, but in a few weeks or a month when the market has largely corrected itself, things will be fine. It's a 20 or 30+ year investment plan, not a short-term get-rich-quick scheme.

Full Disclosure - work for firm in benefits administration (HRO) on Defined Contribution plans (401ks) - I'll be called a shill, but I also know what the hell I am talking about.
 
Eteric Rice said:
America is literally fucked, isn't it?

Something is going to have to happen soon for this shit to change. I mean fuck.
No, I believe if we have all three branches of the government controlled by Conservative Republicans, THAT will be the trigger that gets America to move.

Until that happens, Americans will remain complacent.
 

Chichikov

Member
Enron said:
I didn't call anyone names.

401ks are long-term investments. Every now and again I come across people like this fellow that think that 401ks are a big scam - ok smart guy, explain yourself. And then they always (in a downturn) throw out the "Look at the market, how can anyone say this is a good idea???!!!" card - look, you aren't supposed to be daytrading. Sure you lose value, but in a few weeks or a month when the market has largely corrected itself, things will be fine. It's a 20 or 30+ year investment plan, not a short-term get-rich-quick scheme.

Full Disclosure - work for firm in benefits administration (HRO) on Defined Contribution plans (401ks) - I'll be called a shill, but I also know what the hell I am talking about.
I don't think that deferred retiring investment in the stock market is a scam.
But the fact that in this country, you pretty much have to invest in the stock market in order to retire is beyond fucked up, and as a side effect, it amounts to a giant transfer of wealth from productive people to non-productive ones.
 

Wall

Member
It is a little weird to see an election where the Democrats gained two seats, in Republican leaning districts nonetheless, painted as a defeat for the Democrats. I understand why the national media does it, because they wanted to turn the elections into a referendum to fit into their overall narrative, but coming from other quarters it just seems like post-election spin.

Those Republican state sentators in those districts all survived 2008, a year in which the Republicans suffered otherwise historic losses. According to Nate Silver of 538, Scott Walker won the six districts targeted in the recall by an average of 13 percent. In Tuesday's elections, the Democrats cut that margin to 6 percent, which is in line with Scott Walker's margin in the rest of the state. These are all areas in which Republicans need to run up high margins of victory in order to have a chance in statewide elections. That is probably why Nate tweeted that Democrats would be crazy not to go ahead with their effort to recall Scott Walker.

Reguardless of what happens next week with the other recalls, one would have to resort to nebulous arguments like "momentum" and "narrative" or resort to playing the expectations game in order to portray an election in which the Democrats managed to make signifigant gains amoung the Republican's base as anything other than bad for Republicans. I doubt that Republican leaders are privately as confident as their public statements make them out to be, although they fact that they already got much of their agenda enacted must be of some comfort.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Eteric Rice said:
America is literally fucked, isn't it?

Something is going to have to happen soon for this shit to change. I mean fuck.


Short term? Yeah. 10 years from now? Probably not.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Chichikov said:
I don't think that deferred retiring investment in the stock market is a scam.
But the fact that in this country, you pretty much have to invest in the stock market in order to retire is beyond fucked up, and as a side effect, it amounts to a giant transfer of wealth from productive people to non-productive ones.


So how else would you like to see people retire outside of stock market? They can personally save money up too right?
 
GOP Announces the Super Congress Picks

What does GAF think?

Senate:

Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.)
Pat Toomey (R-Pa.)
Rob Portman (R-Ohio)

Congress:

Dave Camp (R-Mich.)
Fred Upton (R-Mich.)
Jeb Hensarling (R-Texas)



Note: All six Republicans have signed a pledge to Grover Norquist's Americans for Tax Reform that they will not vote to raise taxes.
 

Enron

Banned
Chichikov said:
I don't think that deferred retiring investment in the stock market is a scam.
But the fact that in this country, you pretty much have to invest in the stock market in order to retire is beyond fucked up, and as a side effect, it amounts to a giant transfer of wealth from productive people to non-productive ones.

It's not just the stock market. There are Bond Funds, Money Market funds, Guaranteed Investment Contract Funds, stabler investment vehicles than just straight up stock. 401ks offer a variety of investment choices at many different risk levels.

How else are you going to retire? A savings account? A pension? Most pensions invest their holdings on the markets as well. Returns over the life of a 401k will most certainly beat interest. What exactly is the problem?
 

daedalius

Member
Super Committee will be dead in the water, good luck getting any kind of bipartisan compromises out of them.

Liked that video, Ratigan sounds good.
 
I've never heard of any of those congressmen.

I liked the suggestion that Dems should pick the Republicans and vice-versa. That would've been interesting.
 
Wall said:
It is a little weird to see an election where the Democrats gained two seats, in Republican leaning districts nonetheless, painted as a defeat for the Democrats. I understand why the national media does it, because they wanted to turn the elections into a referendum to fit into their overall narrative, but coming from other quarters it just seems like post-election spin.

Those Republican state sentators in those districts all survived 2008, a year in which the Republicans suffered otherwise historic losses. According to Nate Silver of 538, Scott Walker won the six districts targeted in the recall by an average of 13 percent. In Tuesday's elections, the Democrats cut that margin to 6 percent, which is in line with Scott Walker's margin in the rest of the state. These are all areas in which Republicans need to run up high margins of victory in order to have a chance in statewide elections. That is probably why Nate tweeted that Democrats would be crazy not to go ahead with their effort to recall Scott Walker.

Reguardless of what happens next week with the other recalls, one would have to resort to nebulous arguments like "momentum" and "narrative" or resort to playing the expectations game in order to portray an election in which the Democrats managed to make signifigant gains amoung the Republican's base as anything other than bad for Republicans. I doubt that Republican leaders are privately as confident as their public statements make them out to be, although they fact that they already got much of their agenda enacted must be of some comfort.
You can win some battles and lose the war. That the Democrats won those two seats is certainly indicative of a political climate that may be conducive to further political action, but if the objective of Wisconsin Democrats was to wrest control of the Senate from Republicans, they failed. That's pretty straightforward.
 

Chichikov

Member
Enron said:
It's not just the stock market. There are Bond Funds, Money Market funds, Guaranteed Investment Contract Funds, stabler investment vehicles than just straight up stock. 401ks offer a variety of investment choices at many different risk levels.

How else are you going to retire? A savings account? A pension? Most pensions invest their holdings on the markets as well. Returns over the life of a 401k will most certainly beat interest. What exactly is the problem?
I'm not saying it's impossible to retire by investing in those instruments, but you need to either -
1. know what you're doing.
2. hope that you randomly picked someone who knows what they're doing.

Currently, failing on both questions could mean financial ruin.
I don't like that system, at all.
I like to live in a country that you don't need to know what the fuck is a municipal bond in order to retire with dignity.

p.s.
Good luck retiring on money market funds.
 

Joe

Member
bill maher to obama economic advisor: "how fucked are we?"

obama economic advisor: "pretty darn fucked"

yeah i'd say we're fucked.
 

Enron

Banned
Chichikov said:
I'm not saying it's impossible to retire by investing in those instruments, but you need to either -
1. know what you're doing.
2. hope that you randomly picked someone who knows what they're doing.

Currently, failing on both questions could mean financial ruin.
I don't like that system, at all.
I like to live in a country that you don't need to know what the fuck is a municipal bond in order to retire with dignity.

p.s.
Good luck retiring on money market funds.

There's so much wrong here I don't even know where to start.

First, it does NOT have to mean financial ruin. Plan defaults are always safe low-risk funds and all ppts are given summary plan documents to explain to them the basics of their plan. There's no excuse.

No one retires on money market funds. Rather, money market funds should be considered in a balanced portfolio whose goal is a long-term return while mitigating risk.

So, you want to "live in a country" where someone just hands you your retirement out of some sort of fund. Like an Unfunded Pension plan in a European country. Ok, that's great. But why would you NOT want the opportunity to control your own money?
 
Huntsman: Corporate Tax dodging must end

While in Florida today to announce the endorsement of Jeb Bush Jr., GOP presidential contender Jon Huntsman took giant corporations to task for not paying their fair share in taxes. The former Utah governor and ambassador to China singled out General Electric and companies like it for avoiding their tax burden by exploiting loopholes in the tax code:

“It’s criminal that you’ve got some corporations not paying taxes,” the former ambassador to China said in Miami, where he was announcing a new endorsement in his presidential campaign. “Like GE, for instance. That’s got to come to an end.”
Huntsman’s remarks came in reaction to a question about the so-called “supercommittee” being formed as a result of the debt-ceiling deal that will consider new ways to reduce the deficit. House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) named three representatives each to the panel this morning.

Earlier this year the New York Times reported that in 2010, GE, the nation’s largest corporation, functionally paid no taxes on $5.1 billion in profits in the U.S. alone. In fact, G.E. claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion.

Democrats are pushing for the super committee’s deficit reduction plan to include new revenues and tax reform, with a heavier tax burden falling on the wealthy and corporations who have seen their taxes plummet in recent years. Like other Republicans, Huntsman supports ending loopholes and exemptions to pay for lowering overall tax rates.

Wow....at the very least he's not a corporate whore
 
What a terrible assortment for "Super Congress"----be it triggers, otherwise, or somehow both regardless....programs are going to get torn asunder while these chuckling jackasses smug it up for the camera and their corporate constituents.

You'd have fared better picking people off the street if just for the virtue of not likely being party to Norquist's idiotic and destructive tax pledge.

Would that I could turn myself off from politics and current events, but I just can't help but pay attention to the train wreck heading my way---nigh everybody's way. I'm no Accelerationist, but damn it all if this isn't heading in a bad direction with ludicrous speed...
 

Wall

Member
Invisible_Insane said:
You can win some battles and lose the war. That the Democrats won those two seats is certainly indicative of a political climate that may be conducive to further political action, but if the objective of Wisconsin Democrats was to wrest control of the Senate from Republicans, they failed. That's pretty straightforward.

True, although that is part of the expectations game I was referring to, no doubt fed in equal parts by over-roptimistic progressives, conservatives hoping to build up false expectations in order to make any losses they suffer look smaller by comparison

*looks around at thread - nobody could possibly be doing that here ... could they?*

and a national newsmedia eager for an easy to define yardstick so as to separate "winners" from "losers" before moving on to the next story.

Even had the Democrats won 3 instead of 2 elections, they still would not have been able to repeal or reverse any of the controversial laws because Republicans still control the executive branch and the state assembly. On the other hand, since one of the Republicans currently in the state senate sided against his party on the controversial measures, if the Democrats manage to retain both seats in next week's recalls and that senator does not change his position on any further controversial bills, the Democrats will have an effective majority in the Senate versus any further controverial bills meant to further the Republican agenda.

The whole taking back the Senate yardstick was always somewhat arbitrary in relation to any actual effect it might have had on policy.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Chichikov said:
I'm not saying it's impossible to retire by investing in those instruments, but you need to either -
1. know what you're doing.
2. hope that you randomly picked someone who knows what they're doing.

Currently, failing on both questions could mean financial ruin.
I don't like that system, at all.
I like to live in a country that you don't need to know what the fuck is a municipal bond in order to retire with dignity.

p.s.
Good luck retiring on money market funds.


What would this country look like? And how would that person retire without touching the stock market at all?
 
ElectricThunder said:
You'd have fared better picking people off the street if just for the virtue of not likely being party to Norquist's idiotic and destructive tax pledge.
Voters want the corporate taxes increased
The S&P blamed the lack of revenue increases on the credit rating lowering

The GOP makes a pledge to some random lobbyist and that trumps both of those apparently.
 

Enron

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
What would this country look like? And how would that person retire without touching the stock market at all?

mckmas: A country with an unfunded pension. "Unfunded" means that the payout comes from a single source (gov't) out of gov't coffers (in other words, tax money). There's no other plan in place to "fund" the pension. "Funded" pension means that the contributions to the Pension plan are turned around and invested elsewhere to grow the fund, and the payouts come out of that.
 

daedalius

Member
Measley said:
And LoL@ the Republican "Obama has failed" talking point. Talk about sabotage.

Its so easy to listen for those keywords every time there is a republican talking in an article or on a show. I think they all just have a list of words they are supposed to say, as much as possible.

I guess they figure the more they repeat it, the more it is in public perception, and perception is reality. Although I think we get a clear view of that every day.
 
Murray has a strong defense contractor/jobs presense in her state, as does another dem member of the super congress so they'll be quite adverse to the trigger being pulled. Whereas from what I've read, it sounds like the republican members are a bunch of corporatists/K Street apologizers; not that dems are much better in that regard to be fair.

You might as well put Baucus in with the republicans. He may mean well or whatever, but he has a history of being clowned HARD in negotiations with republicans. Considering Kerry has supported Medicare/SS cuts (that don't effect benefits) I think we're going to get a bunch of those with no tax increases, as the democrats are outflanked by the republicans plus Kerry and Baucus.
 

Marleyman

Banned
Measley said:
Yeah, but there's no way Obama could get away with what Ratigan suggests. People already think the president is a dictator.

And LoL@ the Republican "Obama has failed" talking point. Talk about sabotage.

I agree; I don't know any President that is going to be able to get away with what Ratigan wants and this country needs unfortunately.
 
advice to Lewis, Farakhan, Smiley: Learn to read


http://newsone.com/nation/newsonestaff4/farrakhan-west-smiley-obama-poverty/

Still, there was no shortage of anti-Obama rhetoric, which was well received by the large, multicultural audience. Smiley and West condemned the legislation that was negotiated to raise the country’s debt ceiling because of the budget cuts that were part of the deal. Over the next 10 years, the law will allow at least $2.1 trillion in spending cuts that could hurt entitlement programs, such as Social Security and Medicaid.
wtf
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
What America Wants From The Super Committee - By The Numbers
Kyle Leighton | August 10, 2011, 12:40PM



superman-hearing-room-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg





CNN, Gallup, and Marist all polled some of these options, and here's a quick rundown of what might happen if you put the American people at the table.

New Targeted Taxes On The Wealthy And Corporations

President Obama and Congressional Democrats have been hammering away at the need for a balanced approach (read: new revenues in addition to cuts) to the debt problem, and simply put, they have a lot of support on their side. In the CNN poll, 63% of Americans supported "increases in taxes on businesses and higher-income Americans," vs. 36% opposed. 66% agreed with "raising taxes for upper-income Americans" in the Gallup survey, including 45% of Republicans and 37% of Tea Party supporters. The Marist poll showed support for two types of new revenues: increasing taxes on those making more than $250,000 got 68% approval, and eliminating subsidies for oil and gas companies got 60%.


Support For Cuts To Spending On Domestic Programs, Sans Entitlements


The Gallup poll showed that Americans support "cutting spending other than defense, social security, and medicare," at a 59% clip, including the support of 49% of Democrats. 57% support "cuts to major domestic programs" in the CNN poll, but of course, that wording might cause some respondents to think that includes Social Security and Medicare, since those are major domestic programs.


Possible Cuts To Defense Spending


The closest split in the three polls is on the question of cuts to military spending. A slim majority opposed cuts to the Pentagon in the CNN poll, 53 - 47, and these cuts registered the same support in the Gallup poll: 47%. But in the Marist survey respondents actually approved defense cuts 50 - 46, which was outside the margin of error in the poll, and includes support from independent voters 53 - 45. Of course, there has already been a push by the Defense Department against any further budget reductions, and the White House hasn't exactly disagreed.


Cuts To Entitlements Are Off The Table


The second highly conclusive position in these three polls is that looking for savings in Social Security or Medicare is out. Totally out. The highest rating of support for cutting entitlements is in the Gallup poll, where 42% of those polled said reductions would be ok. The only ideological majority within that number was the 53% of Tea Party supporters who approved of looking at possible reductions in the programs. Cuts to Social Security and Medicare only registered 35% support in the CNN poll, and the Marist survey showed extreme disagreement with the idea: only 15% supported cuts, against 83%.

In the end, there's public support for a balanced approach
, and it would probably be a political liability to go after defense spending in a major way. But Social Security and now Medicare remain the Third Rail of American politics.


###################


I swear to god if we don't get a balanced approach this time, I might kick a bitch in the face! The DEMs and Obama have time and the polls on their side. Raise taxes on the rich and on businesses!
 
Don't count on it. Neither party wants to give up what they believe in. I honestly do not see taxes being raised for a long, long, time.

Have you ever followed his posts on GAF? I just found it especially rich that he was trying to shout down someone for not knowing what they're talking about.

You still didn't answer his question.
 

Diablos

Member
Why is Jerry Brown doing this?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/08/09/BAM11KKSPC.DTL

SACRAMENTO -- A national movement aimed at sidelining the Electoral College in presidential elections got a big boost Monday when Gov. Jerry Brown signed legislation adding California to the list of states supporting the drive.

Brown's signature makes California the ninth state to sign on to the effort, which would hand the electoral votes of all participating states to the presidential candidate who wins the most votes nationwide. Currently, California's 55 electoral votes go to the person who wins the most votes in the state.

Under the new law, most California voters could choose one candidate, but the state's electoral votes could ultimately go to the competitor; however, it also would make it impossible for a president to win an election without a majority of support nationally.

It's unlikely the change would take place in time for the 2012 election. Under federal law, states representing a majority of electoral votes - 270 out of 538 - have to agree in order to shift the way votes are awarded in those states.

California's involvement, combined with the other eight states, brings supporters nearly halfway there, to 132 votes, said Vikram David Amar, associate dean at the UC Davis School of Law. Amar, along with his brother and another law professor, started the movement a decade ago.

"It's about voter equality," he said. "If you don't have a national popular vote, people in some states have more say than people in other states."

Currently, he said, swing states get "all the campaign promises and attention, and their votes are effectively worth more."

Amar and other supporters note that a handful of swing states usually get all of the attention from candidates on both sides of the aisle, while large states such as New York, California and Texas are virtually ignored in presidential contests - unless candidates need to raise money.

Other laws vetoed

Authored by Assemblyman Jerry Hill, D-San Mateo, identical measures have twice been passed by lawmakers but were vetoed in 2006 and 2008 by then-Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, a Republican.

But Hill and Amar argue it's not a partisan issue - though it has broken down that way in California. The bill at one point had four Republican co-authors, but those legislators stripped their names from the measure after some GOP activists argued that the change would not be in the party's best interest, in part because it could lead to the Democratic Party spending big in the Golden State. Ultimately, only two Republican lawmakers voted for the measure in California.

Amar, however, noted that in 2000, Democratic candidate Al Gore won the national popular vote and lost the electoral college. Four years later, President George W. Bush, a Republican, won 3 million more popular votes than his Democratic challenger, John Kerry - but if just 60,000 people had swung toward Kerry in Ohio, the Democrat would have taken the White House.

"The Electoral College is neither red nor blue, it's simply an anachronistic holdover from our (nation's) founding," Amar said, adding that the Republican-controlled New York Senate recently passed the measure, and it will now be considered by the New York Assembly.

Hill echoed that sentiment, saying that "every voter in every state should have a real voice in electing the president," including California's 17 million registered voters.

Red states missing

Amar said it's possible that if momentum keeps building, the change could become enacted by the 2016 race. But he warned that a Republican-leaning state needs to sign on, since all of the nine states that have approved the law so far are solidly blue.

"Because the outcome in Texas is already known, they are ignored just as much as New York and California, so hopefully some big red states understand this is to their advantage to do, too," he said. "If a red state doesn't join it soon, I worry people will misunderstand this as a pro-Democrat, anti-Republican thing when it's not that at all."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/08/08/BAM11KKSPC.DTL#ixzz1UejUD4j6
THIS WOULD BENEFIT REPUBLICANS YOU IDIOT.
 
Mercury Fred said:
Have you ever followed his posts on GAF? I just found it especially rich that he was trying to shout down someone for not knowing what they're talking about.

Nah, not aware of his history. Enron, I've got my eye on you now.
 

richiek

steals Justin Bieber DVDs
Is the House G.O.P. Warming to Tax Increases?

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. -– While last month’s Congressional tangle over the debt ceiling suggested permanent partisan gridlock, signs are emerging that some House Republicans are opening the door to potential revenue increases, as Congressional leaders continued to name their members of a bipartisan committee charged with finding ways to tame the deficit.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/is-the-house-g-o-p-warming-to-tax-increases/?hp
 
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