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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags

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Mardak

Member
Wall said:
We need to keep our education system from deteriorating further.
And how is the solution to spend more money on the federal Department of Education that sticks its nose in each state's own education programs preventing them from fixing things locally. I don't disagree that education needs to improve as with a lot of the things you say, but the federal government has a poor track record of improving things by throwing more money at the problem.

Often times the extra money just leads to more greed as bureaucrats see an easy way to make a buck or two or a billion.
 
Misanthropy said:
He would get rid of everything. This includes all the things which only a government can provide the people: healthcare, infrastructure, education, etc. Now I know we don't have a good version of those but it's better than having none at all. Also if you look at countries in Europe they are doing pretty well and that's because they don't lose their goddamn mind when something goes wrong in their government. Their first response isn't: shut it down herp derp! It's: Let's find a way to fix this as quickly as possible.

LOL

so obama can't get the public option debated even, yet paul will be able to dismantle the entire government. quit the fear
 

Puddles

Banned
Mardak said:
Are you saying you would rather keep the Federal Reserve around doing whatever it wants to do such as giving out $16 Trillion (with a T) of 0% interest loans to bank buddies?

A good portion of that money was given directly to banks of foreign countries as well. That $3.1 trillion given to foreign banks could have been given directly to the US population as a $10,000 stimulus!

If everyone was $10,000 richer, would they be able to buy more stuff? Would the prices of goods go up?

What in particular about Austrian economic policies don't you like and believe would potentially pass through Congress?

I'll be honest: I'm not completely caught up on the Federal Reserve arguments. There's always a chance that Ron Paul has a good point there. If you can recommend some good reading on the matter, I'd be interested to take a look at it.

Policies I think would have a good chance of making it through a Ron Paul presidency: slashing federal spending on programs millions of people need and use, NOT raising revenues, cutting the capital gains tax, gutting the Affordable Care Act, gutting the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and I'm sure there are plenty of others.
 

Mardak

Member
Misanthropy said:
He would get rid of everything. This includes all the things which only a government can provide the people: healthcare, infrastructure, education, etc.
And how would he get rid of everything? He's not pushing for some "super congress" to fast-track legislation that ignores the voice of the people represented in Congress.

It's silly to say that Ron Paul would become president and destroy all the roads.
 

SomeDude

Banned
polyh3dron said:
hahaha no


Why do so many people discount ron paul? I don't get it. He wins most of not all the polls.


He godfathered the tea party movement which won many senate and cogressinal seats.

His son won the senate race in kentucky.

And now in most big scale polls he places top 3.


Back in late 2007 most ppl didnt think obama could win either. He did.
 

Mardak

Member
Puddles said:
I'm not completely caught up on the Federal Reserve arguments. There's always a chance that Ron Paul has a good point there.
You can read this chapter on Monetary Policy from Ron Paul's "Liberty Defined"
http://books.google.com/books?id=KGsAPgSJpIwC&pg=PT125

It's barely 2.5 pages long, and if you have questions about his stance on a "gold standard", I can answer them. I'll just point out now that many people argue that Ron Paul is crazy to want to go back to a gold standard, but he's not arguing exactly for that.

Ron Paul just wants something to prevent the Federal Reserve and the federal government from creating money out of thin air. As crazy as it seems, the Federal Reserve really did give out $16 trillion of loans backed by nothing at all. With a press of a key, big corporate banks all of a sudden see that they have more money to use.


Puddles said:
Policies I think would have a good chance of making it through a Ron Paul presidency: slashing federal spending on programs millions of people need and use, NOT raising revenues, cutting the capital gains tax, gutting the Affordable Care Act, gutting the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and I'm sure there are plenty of others.
While Ron Paul is principled, he is not heartless. If somehow a bill passed both the House and Senate to completely wipe out Social Security, I doubt Ron Paul would sign it unless it comes with ways to transition away and care for the people that lived their lives assuming it would be around.

On the topic of Social Security, Ron Paul on monetary policy is very relevant here as Social Security checks pay out a certain amount each month. As long as the Federal Reserve keeps giving out money to banks, the purchasing power of the dollar goes down. Just as my example of everyone getting $10,000, prices of goods will go up, and now a Social Security check is only able to buy, say, half a dozen eggs instead of a whole dozen.

Sure, I could see Ron Paul vetoing tax increases, but he would also veto increasing the debt ceiling. In fact, he wouldn't have hyped up this debt ceiling debate saying that unless the ceiling is increased, the US's AAA rating would be lowered. And we know how that turned out.

Ron Paul has pointed out that if too much debt is the problem in the US (and he agrees it's a big problem), how is increasing the debt ceiling the solution?

Ron Paul would want to freeze the spending budget to whatever it was the previous year. That seems pretty reasonable where a business that isn't making enough money to decide not to hire more people or look into expanding into new locations.

Except those in Congress say Ron Paul's freeze would actually be a cut! Well, sure, you could look at it as a cut if you were expecting an automatic increase every year.
 

Diablos

Member
Wall said:
Which is to have the government spend a lot of money in order to restore full employment and normal economic growth.
Republicans would never let that happen.

In keeping with that, I would expect them to push back against anyone who argues for cutting programs at this time. Basically, the opposite of what is happening now.
Pushing back only does so much; the Republicans would never react to that. They are unified against things like Medicare and SS.

We should be stimulating the economy now through increased spending and talking about ways to cut spending and reduce costs in the long term. What we are actually doing is cutting costs in the short term and leaving long term spending problems unaddressed.
We're doing this because Republicans would never allow the alternative to occur.


We have massive unmet infrastructure needs in this country. We need to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels to the point where we can eliminate them entirely. We need to keep our education system from deteriorating further. We need to make higher education and job training more affordable, especially during a time of economic dislocation. Those are just starters
I agree with you 110%, but..

the Republicans would never let it happen. You need Congress for this stuff to work. They have dialed their ideology back to the 1920's and they aren't letting anyone get in their way.

By taking this out on Obama you are giving the Republicans exactly what they want. Could he be more aggressive? Sure. But the GOP won't have it either way. No sense in going to war with someone who's just going to have their back turned with an ignorant voting populace and stalled recovery (that they manufactured) as their shield. What the Republicans are doing is evil, plain and simple. They have completely manipulated the system to ensure the economic crisis they manufactured stayed relevant long enough to allow the pendulum to swing back to their side. It worked. The Clintons would have been just as helpless. This is all a part of the plan.
 

Averon

Member
kottila said:
Even our Norwegian newschannels reported on that small trial election thing in Iowa. This is going to be a loong 18 months.

Ugh. That's one of the worst things about election season. Way too long imo. Can't wait for the barage of a dozen different tracking polls with their latest numbers blaring on nearly every damn website!
 
Averon said:
Ugh. That's one of the worst things about election season. Way too long imo. Can't wait for the barage of a dozen different racking polls with their latest numbers blaring on nearly every damn website!
Fivethirthyeight is all you really need to pay attention to in that respect.

Ron Paul has pointed out that if too much debt is the problem in the US (and he agrees it's a big problem), how is increasing the debt ceiling the solution?
Still? Really? Keep fuckin' that chicken.

ssolitare said:
He should put his money where his mouth is, then--and fund a PAC that supports candidates who advocate higher taxes. NYT editorials don't cut it anymore.
 

FLEABttn

Banned
Karma Kramer said:
LOL

so obama can't get the public option debated even, yet paul will be able to dismantle the entire government. quit the fear

In a climate of brinksmanship, someone in the executive who theoretically is a veto machine would certainly have some measurably effect on the federal government.

While dismantling the entire government in a year is certain hyperbole, I wouldn't kid myself about the possible negatives under a Paul administration.
 

gcubed

Member
LosDaddie said:
wow...judging by my teabager co-workers reactions this morning, Perry has got this nom all locked up.

its basically just him and Romney. Everyone else becomes more of a sideshow then they already are
 

Jackson50

Member
Sinoox said:
I didn't know you could see into future, or are you just reiterating things you heard from your television? If you really knew anything about Ron Paul supporters you wouldn't dismiss them so strongly. They're the most passionate and head strong individuals involved in politics, this is evident if you've witnessed what they're capable of first hand. Libertarianism (what Ron's message is ALL about, this should be blatantly obvious) will only become stronger because its message coveys what this country was founded on and so many more people have awakened to understand this thanks to Ron's breakthrough in these campaigns. As long as that revolutionary paper document in Washington, our constitution, exists this movement will never die. It does not matter if Ron is running or not, the energy isn't going anywhere.
Precognition is not necessary to dismiss Paul's candidacy. And this is pertinent to SomeDude's queries about people discounting Paul. For a myriad of reasons, he will not secure the nomination. Foremost, he is too unorthodox. Even if Paul's supporters are as fervent as you purport, the GOP establishment will inhibit his nomination; that is, if it gains momentum with the electorate. And it will not, for he is too unorthodox. I could list other reasons. But that is the primary reason his candidacy is nonviable. Sure, his small, rabid base of supporters will not abandon him. They will continue to troll FNC and propel Paul's victory in meaningless polls.
 
Rick_Perry-Bush_2-420x369.jpg


the execution of an innocent man will be Perry's undoing
 

gcubed

Member
Invisible_Insane said:
pfft. Do you know what country this is?

he just has to say that God told him it was his time to die so Perry decided not to intervene. Crisis averted.

That or God would have stopped the execution himself if it was to be so
 

LosDaddie

Banned
gcubed said:
its basically just him and Romney. Everyone else becomes more of a sideshow then they already are

So it's just Perry, then. :)
I don't believe Romney ever had any real hype/momentum behind him. He's just been the "I'm Electable" candidate in a field of crazies (Paul/Bachmann/Cain/etc).

There won't be any group in the Repub base with a problem nominating Perry. He certainly won't be attacked for being a centrist like McCain was by the pundits. Perry's already their darling.
 

eznark

Banned
gutter_trash said:
Rick_Perry-Bush_2-420x369.jpg


the execution of an innocent man will be Perry's undoing


Obama needs to be one third of that image to truly scare people.

Speaking of the execution, I wasn't paying a ton of attention this weekend but did it pop up on the Sunday talk shows at all?
 

Mike M

Nick N
Sinoox said:
I didn't know you could see into future, or are you just reiterating things you heard from your television? If you really knew anything about Ron Paul supporters you wouldn't dismiss them so strongly. They're the most passionate and head strong individuals involved in politics, this is evident if you've witnessed what they're capable of first hand. Libertarianism (what Ron's message is ALL about, this should be blatantly obvious) will only become stronger because its message coveys what this country was founded on and so many more people have awakened to understand this thanks to Ron's breakthrough in these campaigns. As long as that revolutionary paper document in Washington, our constitution, exists this movement will never die. It does not matter if Ron is running or not, the energy isn't going anywhere.
Were you just politically aware back in 2008? He didn't go anywhere then, he's not going anywhere now. His Internet support does not translate into the real world where he is polling less than 2% when the elections actually go down.
 
gcubed said:
he just has to say that God told him it was his time to die so Perry decided not to intervene. Crisis averted.

That or God would have stopped the execution himself if it was to be so

I think the most depressing aspect of this statement is the fact that it would most likely work.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Maybe Perry will actually make the primary interesting. He should win many southern states and might garner that grass-roots, tea bagger money to keep him going. I just don't see him winning the NE, midwest or California primaries. It will be the first interesting Republican primary in .. forever .. if it plays out that way.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
It seems to me that Obama's praise is always very short lived - if he does something that the public, or even Neogaf likes, his approval rating will go up for maybe a month, two tops - then the problems of the country and his indecisiveness bring him back down.

Wouldn't it be smart of him to have some sort of trump - some minor achievement to either show the public, or to make some bold move a few months before Nov 2012? The fresh victory would be in peoples minds in the voting booths.
 

Mardak

Member
dave is ok said:
He won polls in 2008 too
Which polls was Ron Paul winning in 2008? The online polls? Yeah he still wins them in 2012.

Where was he placing in telephone polls run by Rasmussen, CNN, Gallup, etc? Right now he's getting 3rd nationally up to 14% without the media hype, and his trend is positive.

Those that have been doing well in the polls have been getting national media coverage. There's a pretty strong correlation between media mentions and polling numbers. Except Ron Paul does higher than average. The media knows this and avoids saying Ron Paul whenever possible.

Who won the Iowa Straw Poll? Well.. there's Bachmann in 1st place and Pawlenty in 3rd!

politico.png


No mention of Ron Paul virtually tied for 1st place?
 

eznark

Banned
Kinitari said:
It seems to me that Obama's praise is always very short lived - if he does something that the public, or even Neogaf likes, his approval rating will go up for maybe a month, two tops - then the problems of the country and his indecisiveness bring him back down.

Wouldn't it be smart of him to have some sort of trump - some minor achievement to either show the public, or to make some bold move a few months before Nov 2012? The fresh victory would be in peoples minds in the voting booths.

That's why Krugman is hoping for an alien attack.
 
Mardak said:
Which polls was Ron Paul winning in 2008? The online polls? Yeah he still wins them in 2012.

Where was he placing in telephone polls run by Rasmussen, CNN, Gallup, etc? Right now he's getting 3rd nationally up to 14% without the media hype, and his trend is positive.

Those that have been doing well in the polls have been getting national media coverage. There's a pretty strong correlation between media mentions and polling numbers. Except Ron Paul does higher than average. The media knows this and avoids saying Ron Paul whenever possible.

Who won the Iowa Straw Poll? Well.. there's Bachmann in 1st place and Pawlenty in 3rd!

politico.png


No mention of Ron Paul virtually tied for 1st place?
Not to put an undue amount of faith in prediction markets, but Ron Paul is not doing well in them.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
SomeDude said:
Why do so many people discount ron paul? I don't get it. He wins most of not all the polls.
Which ones? The Ames poll is a pay for play; ballots cost $30 and Paul handed out thousands to supporters he bussed in. So I wouldn't put a lot of stock in it, it just shows he can buy votes (which is actually pretty handy). He's far in the rear in professionally conducted polls.
 
Mardak said:
Often times the extra money just leads to more greed as bureaucrats see an easy way to make a buck or two or a billion.
What examples of bureaucrats making large sums of money from reform efforts do you have? And what examples if local successes vs. Federal guidelines do you have?
 
GhaleonEB said:
Which ones? The Ames poll is a pay for play; ballots cost $30 and Paul handed out thousands to supporters he bussed in. So I wouldn't put a lot of stock in it, it just shows he can buy votes (which is actually pretty handy)

Representatives should be decided by the market.

Byakuya769 said:
What examples of bureaucrats making large sums of money from reform efforts do you have? And what examples if local successes vs. Federal guidelines do you have?

As I'm sure you've already figured out, he's just saying words he's been conditioned to say. He has no idea what, if anything, lies beneath those words in the real world.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Libertarianism will never flourish in America if it doesn't learn how to appeal to women. There is nothing about the ideology that they can support, so it will forever be a pipe dream, fantasy land for 20 year old (who think they can make it alone) and 55 year old (who think they made it alone) white dudes.
 
ToxicAdam said:
Libertarianism will never flourish in America if it doesn't learn how to appeal to women. There is nothing about the ideology that they can support, so it will forever be a pipe dream, fantasy land for 20 year old (who think they can make it alone) and 55 year old (who think they made it alone) white dudes.
So you're saying women hate freedom.

Sexist.
 

LosDaddie

Banned
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Don't know why Perry would make you nervous. No way in HELL indies would vote for a far right guy religious nutbag like him.

Nah, I believe Perry's constant messaging of being a job creator while in Tejas will be very appealing to indies.

Obama certainly has his hands full with a Perry challenge.
 
SomeDude said:
Why do so many people discount ron paul? I don't get it. He wins most of not all the polls.


He godfathered the tea party movement which won many senate and cogressinal seats.

His son won the senate race in kentucky.

And now in most big scale polls he places top 3.


Back in late 2007 most ppl didnt think obama could win either. He did.

1. Obama was a politician and still is. He was able to get large donors. He was never going to be a threat to the institution as a whole. Ron Paul is and will be. He will not get the donors nor support required to win the nomination let a lone the general election. The Republican part is afraid of him.

2. His son won Kentucky which is a conservative state and did so during the Tea Party onslaught.

3. Placing top 3 before 1 primary has even taken place isn't anything to speak of. Ron Paul may place high with libertarians and many Tea Party communities but that doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.
 

eznark

Banned
ToxicAdam said:
Libertarianism will never flourish in America if it doesn't learn how to appeal to women. There is nothing about the ideology that they can support, so it will forever be a pipe dream, fantasy land for 20 year old (who think they can make it alone) and 55 year old (who think they made it alone) white dudes.

Strange statement. I thought the female demographic was generally pro gay marriage, pro choice, socially "liberal."
 

Dude Abides

Banned
eznark said:
Obama needs to be one third of that image to truly scare people.

Speaking of the execution, I wasn't paying a ton of attention this weekend but did it pop up on the Sunday talk shows at all?

Of course not. The pundit class doesn't give a shit about the death penalty and, more importantly, is in the fellatio stage of its relationship with Perry.
 
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