• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kosmo

Banned
empty vessel said:
No, it is specifically because of government negotiation:

Plans able to restrict drugs from their formularies have the clout to say “no” to high prices. This is one, but not the only, reason the VA can purchase drugs at prices 40% below those paid by Medicare Part D plans.​

In other words, the ability to restrict drugs matters, but it is not what makes drugs 40% cheaper.



No, it's not like that. And, in fact, that's exactly what the authors controlled for. They still find a significant difference after "monetizing" the "loss of choice," which is dubious at best and for reasons pointed out in the comments (and not disputed by the author):

This is an interesting economic analysis but it ignores the therapeutic value of the formulary. There is a reason the VA excludes so many drugs from their formulary and it is because these drugs are ineffective or overpriced and can be replaced with cheaper drugs which have the same or better beneficial effect for the patient.

Therefore, the statement that “there is a loss of value of $405 to patients” is only true in the sense that patients can’t buy overpriced and/or ineffective drugs. There is no loss of therapeutic value. If you take into account the fact that patients can be as healthy using the restricted formulary then there is no loss and no need to compensate them for the loss.​

To which the author replied:

You bring an additional consideration, which is valid. I do not think we ignore it. Read the conclusion of the paper. However, the paper is economics. We are economists. You or someone equally qualified should write a paper on the point you have made.​

This comment also made the same point well:

The important point missed by Frakt et al. in their assessment of value of the more liberal Medicare formulary compared with the VA formulary is efficacy.

Drugs are not like iPads and iPhones. The value of having access to drugs is not so you can buy more expensive drugs and show them off to your friends. The point is to get and stay well. Spending for more expensive drugs is worthless if they do not perform significantly better than competing less expensive drugs.

There are piles of scientific studies showing that VA patients, with their drug access limited to the VA formulary, do not do the same as patients in conventional US health care systems. They do better. Choosing a drug based on characteristics other than efficacy is inappropriate, no matter how heavily the drug is advertised on TV or how heavily it is promoted to doctors, or how much it costs. There are many very expensive drugs that are less useful than much cheaper drugs, and the VA contructs its low priced formulary by relying as much as possible on those drugs, then on buying power and negotiation to obtain discounts on drugs that are more expensive but necessary.

The poster child for this is management of high blood pressure. Scientific research has shown that high blood pressure is most effectively and most safely managed by individual drugs or mixes of drugs that are generic and very very cheap. Costs of from $15 to $125 a year per patient are typical, depending on the mix of drugs needed. There are much more expensive drugs available, but studies show that they are both less effective and less safe. However, many of these drugs are available through Medicare and private insurance formularies and continue to be prescribed by the large fraction of doctors who either do not keep up on scientific literature or who get their information from drug company ads and representatives. This costs tens of billions of dollars each year.

We are fast reaching a point where we can no longer accept this kind of foolishness, and economic articles that ignore the issue of efficacy in discussing the value of health care management only add to the problem.​

I do find it ironic that you are using Part D's own self-imposed restrictions in defense of its would-be lower negotiating power compared to the VA. This is only a concession in my favor, because you are conceding additional flaws in Part D: namely, that it requires the government to spend money covering ineffective and overpriced drugs. You should remember that you are supposed to be defending it. Which brings me to my next question. Do you ever stop and wonder why you are defending Medicare Part D? It's indefensible corporate subsidy, and no self-respecting conservative or progressive would defend it.

Keep on fucking that chicken. I am not defending Medicare Part D nor claiming that it does not have serious flaws - I only pointed out that it is 40% under budget and that your claim that the VA pays 40% less for drugs on an apples to apples basis with commercial drug plans is false. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
TacticalFox88 said:
That'll probably earn me a tag. *sigh*


But to get to your point about Obama being like LBJ......This is what America looked like when LBJ was President.

320px-89_us_house_membership.png
 

Jackson50

Member
FP has an informative article detailing the crisis that precipitated the recent resignation (he fled the country) of Afghanistan's central banker. If you want a prime example of the corruption and impotence plaguing Afghanistan, read it.

A guide to the banking scandal that nearly destroyed the Afghan economy

Posted By Robert Zeliger Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 1:07 PM

For the past several days, Afghan officials and the country's former central bank governor have been trading allegations over who is responsible for the worst financial crisis in Afghan history. Abdul Qadeer Fitrat, who ran the Afghan Central Bank, fled to the United States this week, saying his life was in danger after accusing politically powerful people of bearing responsibility for financial malfeasance at Afghanistan's largest commercial bank, where last year about $900 million went missing. In turn, Afghan officials issued an arrest warrant for Fitrat, charging him with fraud and saying that -- as the country's chief banker -- he failed to oversee and correct the illicit dealings at Kabul Bank.

The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that nearly $900 million dollars disappeared, the majority of which is not likely to be returned. Kabul Bank is the largest private bank in the country, responsible for upwards of 80 percent of the government's payroll, including the salaries of soldiers and police officers. In September, after the extent of the fraud was uncovered, a rush on the bank resulted in a panic that nearly crippled the economy (a long Ramadan holiday weekend may have actually been what saved it). Fitrat and others outside Afghanistan allege that the bank operated as a defacto pyramid scheme, in which politically connected people -- such as President Hamid Karzai's businessman brother -- were given large, interest-free loans at the expense of the lowly depositor. Most of that money was then invested overseas in places like Dubai, where they bought things like expensive villas.

http://passport.foreignpolicy.com/p...ndal_that_nearly_destroyed_the_afghan_economy

Invisible_Insane said:
Point blank refusing to answer the question on the War Powers Resolution. Cold-blooded.
A wholly inadequate response. And I suspect it will only entrench House opposition. Now, I partially concur that politics precipitated opposition. Additionally, I think it is a function of institutional conflict. Regardless, he is still accountable.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
PhoenixDark said:
Any Texas natives here to explain why Perry is so unpopular despite Texas having such a strong economy?

I'll take this one; the Texas' economy's relative success through the Great Recession really has jack shit to do with Perry and his... leadership. It's more a product of our more-diversified-than-you-would-think portfolio of industries, partciularly the medical and, yes, petrochemical ones.

And apparently Perry isn't too damned unpopular, because he's been with Texas like herpes for as long as I can remember.
 
thekad said:
Quick, obscure the central issue!

This been posted yet?



http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/06/poll-perry-trails-obama-in-texas.php?ref=fpa

Imagine if Obama won Texas :lol

Amazing, I was actually going through the PPP and very interesting replies.

Q16 If the candidates for President next year were
Democrat Barack Obama and Republican Rick
Perry, who would you vote for?
Barack Obama................................................ 47%
Rick Perry ....................................................... 45%
Undecided....................................................... 8%

HAHAHA OH WOW. Also

Q12 If the candidates for President next year were
Democrat Barack Obama and Republican
Sarah Palin, who would you vote for?
Barack Obama................................................ 46%
Sarah Palin ..................................................... 44%
Undecided....................................................... 10%

Q14 If the candidates for President next year were
Democrat Barack Obama and Republican Mitt
Romney, who would you vote for?
Barack Obama................................................ 42%
Mitt Romney.................................................... 50%
Undecided....................................................... 9%

Disclaimer, the majority of the respondents were above the age of 46, white and Republican:

If you are 18 to 29 years old, press 1. If 30 to
45, press 2. If 46 to 65, press 3. If you are
older than 65, press 4.
18 to 29........................................................... 14%
30 to 45........................................................... 20%
46 to 65........................................................... 44%
Older than 65.................................................. 22%
 
Kosmo said:
Keep on fucking that chicken. I am not defending Medicare Part D nor claiming that it does not have serious flaws - I only pointed out that it is 40% under budget and that your claim that the VA pays 40% less for drugs on an apples to apples basis with commercial drug plans is false. Nothing more, nothing less.

That it is 40% under budget--which, incidentally is considered a high estimate--does not mean that the 60% it is spending is not wasteful and ineffecient. It is, and it was designed to waste money, i.e., to transfer money from the pockets of health care consumers to the pockets of health care business executives and investors.

The claim that the VA pays 40% less for drugs is not false. It is an empirical fact (as established by the linked study). There is an argument that Medicare would not be able to reduce its costs by 40% just by allowing it to negotiate drug prices due to the legal restrictions on its formularies which would have the effect of reducing its bargaining power compared to the VA. But that argument has a simple response: eliminate the legal impediment to allowing Medicare to make sound choices about what drugs it will cover, i.e., do not force it to cover overpriced and ineffective drugs. That will make it identical to the VA and we would expect the program to cost 40% less.

Yet you resist the idea of achieving the same results as Medicare Part D for 40% less cost. Why? What do you--who claims to care deeply about government spending--have to gain from resisting this? I can tell you the answer, it's nothing. Which is why I can only conclude that your claim to care about wasteful government spending is completely false. You don't actually care.
 

besada

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
Any Texas natives here to explain why Perry is so unpopular despite Texas having such a strong economy?

Texas Governors are figureheads with minimal power, so no one gives them much credit for anything. Liberals don't like him because he's a conservative, and conservatives don't like him because he instituted a mandate to protect little girls from having rotten vaginas.

No one I've ever met will admit to liking him, but people would rather vote for him than the other choices they've been offered, which largely amount to Democrats and full on nut-jobs.
 

Kosmo

Banned
empty vessel said:
That it is 40% under budget--which, incidentally is considered a high estimate--does not mean that the 60% it is spending is not wasteful and ineffecient. It is, and it was designed to waste money, i.e., to transfer money from the pockets of health care consumers to the pockets of health care business executives and investors.

The claim that the VA pays 40% less for drugs is not false. It is an empirical fact (as established by the linked study). There is an argument that Medicare would not be able to reduce its costs by 40% just by allowing it to negotiate drug prices due to the legal restrictions on its formularies which would have the effect of reducing its bargaining power compared to the VA. But that argument has a simple response: eliminate the legal impediment to allowing Medicare to make sound choices about what drugs it will cover, i.e., do not force it to cover overpriced and ineffective drugs. That will make it identical to the VA and we would expect the program to cost 40% less.

Yet you resist the idea of achieving the same results as Medicare Part D for 40% less cost. Why? What do you--who claims to care deeply about government spending--have to gain from resisting this? I can tell you the answer, it's nothing. Which is why I can only conclude that your claim to care about wasteful government spending is completely false. You don't actually care.

I do? Don't put words into my mouth. I never claimed such nonsense. I would be perfectly fine with letting Part D plans design their formularies however the hell they want (assuming Part D stays in place, I would be fine getting rid of it).
 

eznark

Banned
quadriplegicjon said:
Weren't those things the unions had agreed to? I thought the issue was stripping them of collective bargaining powers... and unless I am mistaken, the collective bargaining laws and the budgetary issues were separated into two different bills... so isn't this: "taking effect today as part of the new collective bargaining laws," somewhat misleading as well.

Without the budget bill the unions didn't have to agree to anything.

Also, you're confusing "fiscal" and "budgetary" issues. The GOP stripped strictly fiscal portions from the collective bargaining bill but left in everything that was deemed controversial since they had no direct spending attachments. Basically, in the Wisconsin legislature fiscal=spending.

As for "confusing the central issue," well, that's politics! Also, Joe Voter isn't going to give a shit about union workers whining when his municipality has more money in the coffers and his school system has more teachers.

Kos had a poll on the senate recall. One republican is getting roasted (the guy everyone assumed would lose) one Republican is winning by 5 and the other seat is a toss up. They are going to do the other three this week supposedly.
 
Kosmo said:
I do? Don't put words into my mouth. I never claimed such nonsense. I would be perfectly fine with letting Part D plans design their formularies however the hell they want (assuming Part D stays in place, I would be fine getting rid of it).

Would you support allowing Medicare Part D to design its formularies and negotiate drug prices like the VA? Not only that, but, if Medicare Part D weren't going to be repealed entirely, would you insist on it in the name of efficiency?
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
mckmas8808 said:
The good ol Dallas. Didn't want to move to Fort Worth (even though it's a cool city).

1. Make sure and check out the 6th Floor Museum, which would seem somewhat morbid but is actually one of the best museums I've ever been to (I'm a bit of a history junkie). It serves somewhat of a miniature presidential museum and is completely worth it.

2. The art musuem is fucking huge and worth it.

3. Rangers games are surprisingly fun, and the stadium (next to the diamond in the asphalt that is the new Cowboy's stadium) is quite nice.

4. JFK Memorial (close to the 6FM) is disappointing.

5. San Antonio: cool place to visit.
 

Kosmo

Banned
empty vessel said:
Would you support allowing Medicare Part D to design its formularies and negotiate drug prices like the VA? Not only that, but, if Medicare Part D weren't going to be repealed entirely, would you insist on it in the name of efficiency?

Of course, and yes. Unfortunately, I don't think you'd find some of those designs palatable.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Schumer To Boehner: If You Think You Can Raise The Debt Limit Without Dem Support, You’re Dreaming
Brian Beutler | June 29, 2011, 3:49PM


chuck_schumer_pointing-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg





Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) says Republican leaders are kidding themselves if they think they'll prevail in their bid to keep new tax revenues out of a grand bargain to lift the nation's borrowing limit. And to prove it, he says, look no further than the House of Representatives.

"Speaker Boehner should realize we're in a different world than we were even a few months ago," Schumer told reporters at the Capitol Wednesday. "He needs Democrats to pass a bill through the House."

A number of Republican House members have said they won't vote to raise the debt limit at all, or only under certain, highly partisan circumstances. Schumer's math suggests that means he'll need Democratic votes to pass a viable debt limit bill, and that means new revenues will have to be part of the equation.

"So for Speaker Boehner to say as was mentioned before that he doesn't have the votes for [new revenues] -- well, he doesn't have the votes if he doesn't have revenues. Because he's not going to get Democratic votes without revenues, and he doesn't have enough Republican votes on his own to cast it," Schumer said.


It's possible Boehner could pass a debt limit hike without Democratic support, if he attached key conservative wish-list items to it. But that would be a dead-on-arrival package in the Senate, and that would be a recipe for a default. Inevitably, it seems he'll need to turn to Democrats for votes.

"That, my friends, is a major difference between this and the [six-month spending bill]. The House can't just lob things over to us if they don't have the ability to do so in their caucus," Schumer said.

Nevertheless, GOP leaders are digging in their heels. "The President is sorely mistaken if he believes a bill to raise the debt ceiling and raise taxes would pass the House," said House Speaker John Boehner in response to President Obama's call for new revenues Wednesday. "The votes simply aren't there - and they aren't going to be there."

Congress is running out of time to lift the debt ceiling -- and Schumer says they may have less time than they think.

"Wall Street tells me, first that August 2 is the deadline, and second even coming the day before it or two days before it -- it's not like the [six-month spending bill]," Schumer said. "It risks real problems, because this is not totally contained within the government. If the government shuts down, that's the government. This involves an outside player -- a very mystical, magical player called the credit markets. And if the credit markets get spooked, whether it's August 2 or July 29, there is no recuperation."

Many rank and file Republicans say they'd like to see the debt limit attached to a Balanced Budget Amendment. But amending the Constitution first requires a two-thirds majority in both chambers. So while Republicans in both chambers line up in lock-step behind the BBA, they'll likely have to satisfy themselves with a test vote on the issue.


####################

Okay first of all the Balanced Budget Amendment is stupid. Second I hope Congress takes this whole thing very seriously. Empty Vessel may disagree, but this debt ceiling thing is serious business.
 

Loudninja

Member
France airlifts arms to bolster Libyan rebels
PARIS/MISRATA, Libya (Reuters) - - France said on Wednesday it airlifted weapons to Libya's rebels this month, the first time that a NATO country bombing Libya has openly acknowledged arming rebels seeking to topple Muammar Gaddafi.

"There were humanitarian drops because the humanitarian situation was worsening and at one point it seemed the security situation was threatening civilians who could not defend themselves," armed forces spokesman Thierry Burkhard said.

"France therefore also sent equipment allowing them to defend themselves, comprising light weapons and munitions," he said, adding that the drop also included medicine and food.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2011/06/france_airlifts_arms_to_bolster_libyan_rebels.php
 
besada said:
Texas Governors are figureheads with minimal power, so no one gives them much credit for anything. Liberals don't like him because he's a conservative, and conservatives don't like him because he instituted a mandate to protect little girls from having rotten vaginas.
WTF is that all about?
 

Zero Hero

Member
Chichikov said:
I can't tell if you're joking.
Are you?
Partially.
There is a part of me that says Rick isn't doing this out of the kindness of his heart. The mandate goes against Ol' Ricky republican and belief of individual responsibility.
 

Cyan

Banned
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
I don't see what's wrong with getting rid of cervical cancer. This is all new to me.
I'm guessing the problems conservatives had were:
a) it was mandated, i.e. gov't intrusion into private life
b) "HPV vaccines promote promiscuity!" etc etc
 
Manmademan said:
no it isn't, because it makes no allowances for rape, incest, or other well being of the mother. It'll be struck down so fast it will make your head spin.

If theres one thing republicans love, is throwing taxpayer money down the drain defending clearly unconstitution laws.

Id be shocked if every lawyer in american didnt vote republican, its a damn goldmine.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
It's a shame it took this long for Obama to attempt to set the narrative.
I hope what we saw today is a sign of things to come, but I have my doubts :(

I watched the segment on the national news, and if the dems can continue with this messaging, it looks REALLY bad for republicans.
 

besada

Banned
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
I don't see what's wrong with getting rid of cervical cancer. This is all new to me.

It's one of the things Perry's done that I don't have a problem with. The religious right lost their damn minds over it, though. As did the "stay out of my bidness, damn gubmint" types.

Part of the issue was that it was, quite reasonably, targeted at girls who hadn't become sexually active yet. That's the best time to immunize them from HPV, since about 50% of the sexually active population already has it. That said, some people objected to their young daughters being proactively treated for a sexually transmitted disease. The right had a visceral reaction to it.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Can someone sum up what happened today? Obama hinted the Bush tax cuts will expire for the rich?
 

Chichikov

Member
Cyan said:
Sure, but that's more of a left-crazy than a right-crazy.
That idiocy really comes in all flavors, from alternative medicine hippies, through ZOMG IT WILL GIVE MY KID AUTISM, to libertarians wanting the government out of their business and religious fucknuts who think vaccination tempers with God's plans.
 
Michelle Bachmann's Husband on Homosexuals:
BACHMANN: We have to understand: barbarians need to be educated. They need to be disciplined. Just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn’t mean that we are supposed to go down that road. That’s what is called the sinful nature. We have a responsibility as parents and as authority figures not to encourage such thoughts and feelings from moving into the action steps…

And let’s face it: what is our culture, what is our public education system doing today? They are giving full, wide-open doors to children, not only giving encouragement to think it but to encourage action steps. That’s why when we understand what truly is the percentage of homosexuals in this country, it is small. But by these open doors, I can see and we are experiencing, that it is starting to increase.
 

Jackson50

Member
I would intently watch a Bachmann vs Palin mud wrestling match.
[url]http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/58010.html[/url]
besada said:
It's one of the things Perry's done that I don't have a problem with. The religious right lost their damn minds over it, though. As did the "stay out of my bidness, damn gubmint" types.

Part of the issue was that it was, quite reasonably, targeted at girls who hadn't become sexually active yet. That's the best time to immunize them from HPV, since about 50% of the sexually active population already has it. That said, some people objected to their young daughters being proactively treated for a sexually transmitted disease. The right had a visceral reaction to it.
Goodness. I remember when he issued the executive order. That immediately preceded the Akon controversy; I then occasionally listened to right-wing talk radio for driving entertainment. I would say visceral is an apt description.
 

besada

Banned
eznark said:
Herman Cain's new ad is soo sweet!
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/06/29/herman_cain_ad_a_failure_to_lead.html

I never heard that Anita Dunn quote. Was that a flub or did she really mean Chairman Mao?

I just got around to watching it. It's, um, bold. I suspect it will work well with the audience he's seeking. But is it bold enough to get the bobble heads to run it for free? I'm not sure. But just think, if this is what the ads are like in the early primaries...well, let's just say our mutual fondness for full on political crazy is probably going to get a good airing.

Edit:wow, when I started typing in Anita Dunn in my search bar, "Anita Dunn Mao" was the second thing in the predictive list. It's an old Beck schtick that ignores that it's an ironic repeat of a Lee Atwater quote, apparently.
 

besada

Banned
Invisible_Insane said:
A black Republican takes issue with the Constitution being called imperfect... is there something about the conservative brain that's simply impervious to irony?
Clean living and a fear of God, sir.

Irony is for sissies and Communists.
 

Cyan

Banned
Invisible_Insane said:
A black Republican takes issue with the Constitution being called imperfect... is there something about the conservative brain that's simply impervious to irony?
Had the exact same thought. Crazy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom