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[Byakuya769]

Wait, why are you using the CBO's numbers in one context, but then ignoring how they predict that the ACA will help to lower healthcare spending throughout the system?

Didn't even catch that gem.

 

[PantherLotus]

Wait, why are you using the CBO's numbers in one context, but then ignoring how they predict that the ACA will help to lower healthcare spending throughout the system?

 

[reilo]

PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, Sicilys and Teabags

 

[PantherLotus]

I'm still kinda miffed we couldn't add in Pull-Outs

 

[BigSicily]

Wait, why are you using the CBO's numbers in one context, but then ignoring how they predict that the ACA will help to lower healthcare spending throughout the system?

Because the baseline assumption I was working on -- and posted a graphic of -- WAS the CBO's numbers

Then noted two huge potential problems that could make it even worse: Healthcare and borrowing costs exceeding the CBO analysis, of which I was careful to state the actuaries projection as possibility. It's not very conductive for real debate in here when people overlook the gist of what was said and try to focus on quick gotchas.

EDIT: And seeing the way this is going, I'm reminded why this is a waste of time.

 

[PantherLotus]

If you mean being intentionally obtuse (or accidentally stupid) is a waste of time, you're probably right.

Then noted two huge potential problems: Healthcare and borrowing costs exceeding the CBO analysis, of which I was careful to state the actuaries projection as possibility. It's not very conductive for real debate in here when people overlook the gist of what was said and try to focus on quick gotchas.

holy fuck i cannot be reading this

Sarah Palin, what did you do with the Republican Party?

 

[Matt]

Because the baseline assumption I was working on -- and posted a graphic of -- WAS the CBO's numbers

Then noted two huge potential problems that could make it even worse: Healthcare and borrowing costs exceeding the CBO analysis, of which I was careful to state the actuaries projection as possibility. It's not very conductive for real debate in here when people overlook the gist of what was said and try to focus on quick gotchas.

EDIT: And seeing the way this is going, I'm reminded why this is a waste of time.

But the CBO also predicts that it's more likly that the ACA will reduce healthcare costs by far more then they predicted, because their estimated include none of the effects from the cost saving provisions of the bill.

 

[BigSicily]

But the CBO also predicts that it's more likly that the ACA will reduce healthcare costs by far more then they predicted, because their estimated include none of the effects from the cost saving provisions of the bill.

Could I see the CBO source?

 

[PhoenixDark]

WASHINGTON — Heading into a crucial negotiating session on a budget deal on Thursday, President Obama has raised his sights and wants to strike a far-reaching agreement on cutting the federal deficit as Speaker John A. Boehner has signaled new willingness to bargain on revenues.

Mr. Obama, who is to meet at the White House with the bipartisan leadership of Congress in an effort to work out an agreement to raise the federal debt limit, wants to move well beyond the $2 trillion in savings sought in earlier negotiations and seek perhaps twice as much over the next decade, Democratic officials briefed on the negotiations said Wednesday.

The president’s renewed efforts follow what knowledgeable officials said was an overture from Mr. Boehner, who met secretly with Mr. Obama last weekend, to consider as much as $1 trillion in unspecified new revenues as part of an overhaul of tax laws in exchange for an agreement that made substantial spending cuts, including in such social programs as Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security — programs that had been off the table.

The intensifying negotiations between the president and the speaker have Congressional Democrats growing anxious, worried they will be asked to accept a deal that is too heavily tilted toward Republican efforts and produces too little new revenue relative to the magnitude of the cuts.

Congressional Democrats said they were caught off guard by the weekend White House visit of Mr. Boehner — a meeting the administration still refused to acknowledge on Wednesday — and Senate Democrats raised concerns at a private party luncheon on Wednesday.

House Democrats have their own fears about the negotiations, which they expressed in an hourlong meeting Wednesday night with Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner.

“Depending on what they decide to recommend, they may not have Democrats,” Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, a Rhode Island Democrat, said in an interview. “I think it is a risky thing for the White House to basically take the bet that we can be presented with something at the last minute and we will go for it.”

Officials said Mr. Boehner suggested that he was open to the possibility of $1 trillion or more in new revenue that would be generated by addressing tax issues already raised in the talks, like killing breaks for the oil and gas industry, eliminating ethanol subsidies and ending preferential treatment for corporate jets.

But those changes would fall far short of the revenue goal, and the source of the rest of the money would, under what they described as Mr. Boehner’s proposal, be decided by Congress through a review of tax law changes. One official said some revenue could be generated by allowing Bush-era tax cuts for affluent Americans to expire at the end of 2012, which would produce hundreds of billions of dollars, though those savings would be offset by the costs of retaining lower rates for those below the income threshold.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/us/politics/07fiscal.html?_r=1
rest at link

Obama offers $4T in cuts, which until today only tea party acolytes were talking about. Medicare cuts, SS cuts. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if these alleged revenue increased are pulled off the table tomorrow at the meeting.

 

[GhaleonEB]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/us/politics/07fiscal.html?_r=1
rest at link

Obama offers $4T in cuts, which until today only tea party acolytes were talking about. Medicare cuts, SS cuts. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if these alleged revenue increased are pulled off the table tomorrow at the meeting.

Note this:

One official said some revenue could be generated by allowing Bush-era tax cuts for affluent Americans to expire at the end of 2012​

That's current law. Nothing needs to be done to make this happen. The last time this came up, the GOP shut the Senate down until a deal was stuck to extend them (at massive cost to the deficit).

If Obama agrees to this as a primary revenue raiser, it needs to be pulled in to take immediate effect. Otherwise, the GOP will get their cuts and then just shut the Senate down again to force Bush tax cuts for the top to be renewed again.

As for the revenue going away entirely, why not? Obama has apparently caved on everything the GOP wanted and more. No reason to compromise now.

 

[jamesinclair]

At one point does the media start putting a R next to Obama's name?

And at what point do the democrats decide to start campaigning for their vacant presidential slot?

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

Anyone getting the impression that Obama is playing the long game. Like he knows his odds in the next election are horrible, so he is bargaining now while the Democrats have some control over the process. So in order to preserve the essence of what we have now, he is willing to make these big deals before Republicans go really crazy in 2012. He is essentially removing the ticking time bomb from their hands, so they can't do whatever they want later. I think I'm just delusional though because nothing guarantees to stop them later.

 

[SomeDude]

chris hedges is calling for a second american revolution:


http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/06/chris-hedges-global-revolution-must-begin-in-america/

 

[PhoenixDark]

Anyone getting the impression that Obama is playing the long game. Like he knows his odds in the next election are horrible, so he is bargaining now while the Democrats have some control over the process. So in order to preserve the essence of what we have now, he is willing to make these big deals before Republicans go really crazy in 2012. He is essentially removing the ticking time bomb from their hands, so they can't do whatever they want later. I think I'm just delusional though because nothing guarantees to stop them later.

But he doesn't play the long game, he continually makes deals that benefit him in the short term but have little lasting effect.

 

[TacticalFox88]

chris hedges is calling for a second american revolution:


http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/06/chris-hedges-global-revolution-must-begin-in-america/

......These morons really give me a fucking headache.

 

[NihonTiger90]

Anyone getting the impression that Obama is playing the long game. Like he knows his odds in the next election are horrible, so he is bargaining now while the Democrats have some control over the process. So in order to preserve the essence of what we have now, he is willing to make these big deals before Republicans go really crazy in 2012. He is essentially removing the ticking time bomb from their hands, so they can't do whatever they want later. I think I'm just delusional though because nothing guarantees to stop them later.

Not really. To me, it seems like somehow the GOP are managing to force his hand on more than he wants to compromise on by basically threatening to shut down everything unless they get what they want. The floating of Medicare / Soc Security cuts - something Obama had said he didn't want - appears to highlight that.

Don't be shocked if this is 90 percents cuts with some very basic revenue increases, mostly with things like the oil subsidies that few people will be fussing over.

 

[Salazar]

......These morons really give me a fucking headache.

I remember Hedges being interviewed on Chris Lydon's podcast. I thought he was a dick. I am pleased by confirmation.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Anyone getting the impression that Obama is playing the long game.

He could play the long game when Dems controlled both houses of Congress (and by that I mean had 60 seats in the Senate). Once they didn't, Republicans have taken the fuck it we'll do five blade approach to obstructionism and hostage taking. Obama can't play the long game. The only long game left is trying to slow down the damage. It's all he can do.

Instead, from the sounds of it, he's helping to speed it up.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Devil's in the details.

Obamacare cut 500bn from medicare.

There are ways to adjust medicare/ss that would save money (PART D PART D) and still uphold to more liberal principles.

Obv. Obama's probably not going down that route, but I'm sure he's seen the polls of Ryan's plan, and NY-26. He's not stupid enough to open himself up to a barrage of "OBAMA IS CUTTING YOUR MEDICARE" attacks.

In fact I could honestly see it going down like this:

August 1, 2011

Boehner: Obama, I'm a little bitch-ass punk and I can't get my caucus to agree to raise the debt ceiling. Help me out, buddy!

Obama: Okay get 24 of your members to vote for my budget and all of the Democrats will vote for it.

Boehner: HELL NO TAX AND SPEND LIBERALS COMMUNISM SOCIALISM BLAH ok

(Senate Dems pass budget through reconciliation, debt ceiling/budget deal passes through House on Dems' backs)

August 2, 2011

Obama: Our leaders have gotten past petty political games and made real change in Washington (insert Obama speech here)

Boehner: I took it to Obama and won! We got 2 trillion in cuts! WHAT NOW BITCHES

Media: Well, we can see here that the Republicans have won again. President Romney, baby!

August 3, 2011

Obama: Psyche, none of your stupid cuts actually amounted to anything and I got pretty much everything I wanted. Hey look, my approval ratings are up.

Tea Party: PRIMARY BOEHNER HE'S BETRAYED US

Boehner: FFFFFFFFFFF-

Kind of like with the deal they did earlier this year, where Boehner had to run to Pelosi and friends to bail him out, and his 40 billion in cuts was maybe like 3 million or something.

 

[Oblivion]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/us/politics/07fiscal.html?_r=1
rest at link

Obama offers $4T in cuts, which until today only tea party acolytes were talking about. Medicare cuts, SS cuts. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if these alleged revenue increased are pulled off the table tomorrow at the meeting.

LOL. Obama's revenue raising idea is the expiration of tax cuts?

Looking forward to the 100-1 spending cut/tax revenue deal in the coming weeks.

 

[jaxword]

......These morons really give me a fucking headache.

See if this helps:

"At the heart of liberalism, really, is a hatred for God and a belief that government should replace God."

— Missouri Rep. Todd Akin, running for the U.S. Senate

 

[gkryhewy]

See if this helps:

"At the heart of liberalism, really, is a hatred for God and a belief that government should replace God."

— Missouri Rep. Todd Akin, running for the U.S. Senate

There sure are a lot of dumb fundie assholes in Ameristan.

 

[Instigator]

I was just listening to yesterday's broadcast of Hardball with Chris Matthews. Now, I usually like the guy but he came up with one of the dumbest examples of the tired American exceptionalism myth:

"What makes this country special is you can do stuff here that you can't do elsewhere, like you can become an American by coming here, it's much harder to do that in other countries".

 

[Kosmo]

I was just listening to yesterday's broadcast of Hardball with Chris Matthews. Now, I usually like the guy but he came up with one of the dumbest examples of the tired American exceptionalism myth:

"What makes this country special is you can do stuff here that you can't do elsewhere, like you can become an American by coming here, it's much harder to do that in other countries".

You fail to see the brilliance of his statement - in what other country can you become an American? LOL

 

[Particle Physicist]

Revenue is a short-term problem given positive growth. Spending is a long-term structural problem -- just ask Europe.

Last I checked, Democrats were proposing increasing revenue AND decreasing spending.

 

[Particle Physicist]

.

 

[Esch]

See if this helps:

"At the heart of liberalism, really, is a hatred for God and a belief that government should replace God."

— Missouri Rep. Todd Akin, running for the U.S. Senate

He came to talk at my school when i was 16ish. got burned in the Q&A by kids who can't buy cigarettes and high school professors. guy's a monglord

 

[GaimeGuy]

It's hard to take seriously people who use the projection in spending growth as a blunt tool for hammering their taxation preference. All those lovely graphs are merely showing exploding healthcare costs and our hesitance to use the various proven models across the world to avert them. You don't want higher taxes trailing ever increasing spending, FINE. Get serious about doing something concerning healthcare.

Vouchers + Making it like the credit card industry have replaced insurance exchanges as the republican talking points.

 

[BotoxAgent]

He came to talk at my school when i was 16ish. got burned in the Q&A by kids who can't buy cigarettes and high school professors. guy's a monglord

haha, not surprised

 

[GaimeGuy]

so if what phoenixdark posted around midnight is true, taking into account the new proposed spending cuts and additional revenues, combined with prior spending and tax cuts...

Obama will have:
Cut spending by $8T over 10 years
Cut taxes by $3T over 2 years.

DAT RADICAL SOCIALIST LIBERAL!

 

[SomeDude]

Why can;t we just break this country up into about 6 parts?

 

[Measley]

Why can;t we just break this country up into about 6 parts?

Because no one wants the south.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

Why can;t we just break this country up into about 6 parts?

 

[mckmas8808]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/us/politics/07fiscal.html?_r=1
rest at link

Obama offers $4T in cuts, which until today only tea party acolytes were talking about. Medicare cuts, SS cuts. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if these alleged revenue increased are pulled off the table tomorrow at the meeting.

Not true. Obama himself had already stated he wanted to cut $4 Trillion over a decades time.


Obama proposal would cut deficit by $4 trillion in 12 years

WASHINGTON — Forcefully rejecting Republican budget-cutting plans, President Barack Obama today proposed lowering the nation’s future deficits by $4 trillion over a dozen years and vowed he would not allow benefit cuts for the poor and the elderly to pay for tax breaks for the rich.
​

 

[gcubed]

so how much in cuts do we need to get close to balanced again? I'm assuming the 4T isn't nearly enough

 

[Aaron Strife]

it sounds like the social security "cuts" are just scaling payments to the chained consumer price index as opposed to the consumer price index.

i don't know things so i'm not really sure what that means exactly, but for every 100 extra dollars SS recepients get, they get 30-40 cents less.

that... doesn't sound that bad to me.

in fact like i said it sounds like the 40 billion = 4 million deal Obama struck with Boehner a while ago - not really significant or different from what we're doing right now, saves some money, but conservatives looking for a savings gold mine should go elsewhere.

 

[Chichikov]

it sounds like the social security "cuts" are just scaling payments to the chained consumer price index as opposed to the consumer price index.

i don't know things so i'm not really sure what that means exactly, but for every 100 extra dollars SS recepients get, they get 30-40 cents less.

that... doesn't sound that bad to me.

It could be worse.
But it's still mostly common folks paying so that rich people can keep their historically low tax rates.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

it sounds like the social security "cuts" are just scaling payments to the chained consumer price index as opposed to the consumer price index.

i don't know things so i'm not really sure what that means exactly, but for every 100 extra dollars SS recepients get, they get 30-40 cents less.

that... doesn't sound that bad to me.

in fact like i said it sounds like the 40 billion = 4 million deal Obama struck with Boehner a while ago - not really significant or different from what we're doing right now, saves some money, but conservatives looking for a savings gold mine should go elsewhere.

Yeah, of the possible things that could happen to social security, this isn't anywhere near the worst.

I kind of wince every time I hear the words "payroll tax holiday," though--we could just easily ensure the security of the program by adjusting or removing the cap entirely.

 

[PantherLotus]

Hey douchebag, the country is broken up into 50 parts. Stop being an un-American traitor by continually suggesting secession. United we stand, divided we fall, fucktard.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

If we let one state secede, we could make Puerto Rico a state finally and not have to change the flag.

 

[mckmas8808]

It could be worse.
But it's still mostly common folks paying so that rich people can keep their historically low tax rates.

How do you know that? We don't know what the deal is, if there will be one.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

If we let one state secede, we could make Puerto Rico a state finally and not have to change the flag.

{looks pointedly at Rick Perry}
{blink}
{looks pointedly at Todd Palin}

 

[besada]

Because no one wants the south.

You mean the same south that contains two of the four largest state economies in the country and most of the oil refineries.

The only thing dumber than SomeDude's comments are some of the responses to him.

 

[mckmas8808]

You mean the same south that contains two of the four largest state economies in the country and virtually all the oil refineries.

The only thing dumber than SomeDude's comments are some of the responses to him.

Agreed. Why some liberals piss on the southern states and act like they should be cut off is difficult for me to understand. It's as if they think they don't contribute mightily to this country.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

The only thing dumber than SomeDude's comments is responding to them at all.

<- guilty

 

[besada]

Agreed. Why some liberals piss on the southern states and act like they should be cut off is difficult for me to understand. It's as if they think they don't contribute mightily to this country.

What's really bizarre is hearing a bunch of self-professed liberals say they're fine with jettisoning some of the poorest, weakest people in the country. Liberals are supposed to be concerned with the poor, but too many would be happy to jettison them because it's too difficult to bother with them.

To be clear, the poorest, neediest people in the country live in the south and have since Reconstruction. Anyone willing to abandon them because they don't like the south isn't much of a liberal.

It would be an excellent way for faux-liberals from the north to jettison most of the black and hispanic people in the country, though.

 

[Cyan]

To be clear, the poorest, neediest people in the country live in the south and have since Reconstruction. Anyone willing to abandon them because they don't like the south isn't much of a liberal.

If they want help, why do they keep voting conservative?

 

[besada]

If they want help, why do they keep voting conservative?

Because many of them a) don't vote b) are poorly educated and c) don't constitute a majority in their state. These are people who've been stuck in a system that doesn't effectively represent them since the 60's. And many are too poor to move.

Let's use Texas as an example. 44% of the state voted for a Democrat in the last federal election. So people are basically willing to throw away that 44% because it's not over 50%. Because the majority votes for shitty people doesn't make the minority cease to exist, and that's who'd be most injured by this silliness.

 

[Jackson50]

According to ADP, private-sector employment increased by 157,000 in June. This is closer to February, March, and April's private-sector growth data. Hopefully, May was a blip as I posited. The BLS will release June's employment report tomorrow.

Last updated: July 7, 2011 3:10 pm
US private-sector jobs jump by 157,000

By Johanna Kassel in New York

The outlook for the US labour market brightened on Thursday as data showed that private-sector employment more than quadrupled in June, according to the monthly ADP employment report.

The increase of 157,000 new positions, which dramatically beat market expectations of 70,000, lifted Wall Street in morning trading. May’s figures were revised down slightly to 36,000.​

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2d3639b4-a892-11e0-8a97-00144feabdc0.html

 

[Cyan]

Let's use Texas as an example.

Is Texas generally considered part of the South? I've never really thought of it that way.