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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control

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Kosmo

Banned
The lengths that Kosmo is going to do try and convince himself that the last week doesn't dismantle Romney's "guy with business experience" argument is really precious.

*cue him responding to this by saying Fast and Furious is going to be the thing that brings Obama down when Romney starts talking about it, even though it's already been all over the news and is completely played out at this point*

Actually it doesn't. It's just trying to create the narrative that the "type" of business Romney ran was not good - nobody can refute that he's a good businessman in that he ran a a private equity firm with the goal of increasing value for his investors - he did that. You may not like how he (allegedly) did that in some cases, but in most cases he made sound investments that saved companies that were going under and returned a profit.

That being said, how you think this line of attack is not going to be played out in 4 months, but Fast and Furious will be, is beyond me. The question you should be asking is why Obama feels the need to spend this much money, this early in the campaign.
 
Actually it doesn't. It's just trying to create the narrative that the "type" of business Romney ran was not good - nobody can refute that he's a good businessman in that he ran a a private equity firm with the goal of increasing value for his investors - he did that. You may not like how he (allegedly) did that in some cases, but in most cases he made sound investments that saved companies that were going under and returned a profit.

That being said, how you think this line of attack is not going to be played out in 4 months, but Fast and Furious will be, is beyond me. The question you should be asking is why Obama feels the need to spend this much money, this early in the campaign.

What's the answer?
 

Tim-E

Member
That being said, how you think this line of attack is not going to be played out in 4 months, but Fast and Furious will be, is beyond me. The question you should be asking is why Obama feels the need to spend this much money, this early in the campaign.

Because building a strong narrative against a weak opponent early in the campaign has proven to be effective in the past and appears to be working considering how much we're talking about it?

How much time has the news media spent talking about Obama's ties to Fast and Furious? Next to none. All they focused on was Holder, Holder, Holder. The only people who cared about attributing every aspect of that story to Obama was republicans. The only reason it had any traction with republicans is because they think it's some conspiracy to ban guns. Fast and Furious plays into no narrative that the Romney camp has established. They are running 100% on "I am not Barack Obama" and haven't tried to make the conversation anything else. Meanwhile, Obama has spent the last two months building a narrative that will carry throughout the end of the election. Narratives built during the summer that have had this much traction do carry over, regardless of whether or not you can see it. In 2004, early on the swift boating narrative built up and it stayed, early in 2008, Obama built up the "McCain is a continuation of the Bush administration" narrative and it stuck. This works, except you just don't want it to.

Edit: I fell for it again. Why do I even respond to him?
 
Good point. It's odd though, because Obama has a pretty decent record to run on. Maybe it's just early and the Bain attack is like shooting Romney in a barrel. It's fun and easy pickings.

The whole back bone of Romney's Presidential campaign is Bain. Any campaign would have hit that hard.
 
Aside from some heavy manufacturing blue-collar types, I don't think outsourcing is going to be a huge resonator come election day. Romney has stated that we need to revive manufacturing in the country and all he needs to say in a debate is "I don't think putting the CEO of a company that has over 200 factories outside the US and recently paid $0 in federal taxes as head of a jobs council is the best way to go about that."

So instead he would argue for that type of person to be president?

What's the answer?

The answer is Obama wants to define Romney before Romney gets a chance to. Obama has plenty of time to run on his record... after he paints Mitt as an out-of-touch shady businessman who lies about his CEO experience and may or may not cheat on his taxes.
 
The Bain attacks are step 1 of the program both Obama and Priorities USA want to run

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...tacks-on-bain/2012/07/10/gJQAWvgObW_blog.html

Step 1 - Attack Romney's aura of competence and business background
Step 2 - Contrast Romney's Policy ideas with Obama

“Second, once people have learned that Romney was willing to fire workers and terminate health and pension benefits while taking tens of millions out of companies, they are much more ready to understand that Romney would indeed cut Social Security and Medicare to give tax breaks to rich people like himself. This provides a foundation to build the core policy critique against Romney.”

When Priorities USA did focus groups back before the ads started, people were not willing to believe any candidate would both cut Medicare and give tax cuts to the rich. They rejected the notion that any politician would be that suicidal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/m...-up-in-the-super-pac-game.html?pagewanted=all

For example, when Priorities informed a focus group that Romney supported the Ryan budget plan — and thus championed “ending Medicare as we know it” — while also advocating tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, the respondents simply refused to believe any politician would do such a thing. What became clear was that voters had almost no sense of Obama’s opponent.

The strategy here is not just hit Bain, Bain, Bain.

The strategy is, hit Bain and then hit Romney's policy ideas. Pivoting off the narrative (they hope) that Romney got Rich while socializing losses to Romney's policy ideas that favor rich people like him and not the middle class.

Will it be successful? We don't know. At this point, it just helps Obama to not talk about the economy though.
 

Kosmo

Banned
So instead he would argue for that type of person to be president?



The answer is Obama wants to define Romney before Romney gets a chance to. Obama has plenty of time to run on his record... after he paints Mitt as an out-of-touch shady businessman who lies about his CEO experience and may or may not cheat on his taxes.

What's the analogous term for you guys on this (i.e. it's the same as the birther argument).
 

Effect

Member
Good point. It's odd though, because Obama has a pretty decent record to run on. Maybe it's just early and the Bain attack is like shooting Romney in a barrel. It's fun and easy pickings.

It's not like he isn't running on his record. He is talking about his accomplishments. The thing is he's dong both. If there is ever a person not running on his record it's Romney. He can't talk about his record as governor because of how he left the state and what he did while there. He thought no one would question his business experience but that's under attack and he's tried to distance himself from the bad but that isn't possible. The tactic of saying President Obama is attacking "capitalism" doesn't work. It helps that Obama's team is being very specific and aren't backing down just because republicans decided to growl. I hate that about Dems. Whenever they have a good argument they often get scared. They just have to last past that initial reaction, grow a backbone, and republicans won't do anything because they can't.
 

Tim-E

Member
What's the analogous term for you guys on this (i.e. it's the same as the birther argument).

LOL Okay.

It's not like he isn't running on his record. He is talking about his accomplishments. The thing is he's dong both. If there is ever a person not running on his record it's Romney. He can't talk about his record as governor because of how he left the state and what he did while there. He thought no one would question his business experience but that's under attack and he's tried to distance himself from the bad but that isn't possible. The tactic of saying President Obama is attacking "capitalism" doesn't work. It helps that Obama's team is being very specific and aren't backing down just because republicans decided to growl. I hate that about Dems. Whenever they have a good argument they often get scared. They just have to last past that initial reaction, grow a backbone, and republicans won't do anything because they can't.

It is off-putting to see a Democratic presidential campaign with a spine, isn't it?
 
What's the analogous term for you guys on this (i.e. it's the same as the birther argument).

About Romneys taxes.

Obama cheerleaders want to see it because the one year shown so far is under the assumption that it heavily influenced to look good, and even with that it was terrible (not illegal) for the Romney campaign. Imagine what more years would look like. On top of this it obviously pushes a nerve on the Romney campaign, which is always good for the pro-Obama campaign.

Liberals in general want to see it because, like before, it was the poster child to how much the tax code favors the rich and they can use that to push for fairer taxes.

This is somthing that is common for presidential candidates to release. Look at Romneys own dads statements about releasing them.

Lets compare to the birth certificate fiasco

Obama released his birth certificate. After crazy amount of pressure, he released a another birth certificate that is for hospital use only and isn't valid for any of the clearance stuff that the other birth certificate is used for. Also, he had to use his authority of being a president to get.

Kosmo, the reason it is hard to take you seriously is because your responses do not show any sort of conviction or ideology yet you are sincere about them. You are in it for the team sports aspect. Thus you look very fake when jeering Democrats and propping Republicans with attacks from the Left, or from nowhere. The only consistency in what you have to say is that it is an attack against Democrats.
 

Tim-E

Member
The fact that presidential candidates for decades have released years of tax returns coupled with the fact that Team Romney squirms anytime the idea is brought up is more than enough reason to call for them because there's obviously a reason he doesn't want to just do what every candidate for years has done.

Obama released his birth certificate twice. It is NOT common for presidential candiates to have their place of birth questioned. The entire basis for the birther movement is a conspiracy theory that he's a secret Kenyan Muslim. There's no precedence for that movement other than them being suspicious of a black man. There IS precedence for the calling of tax returns, because all modern presidential candidates release them.

The idea that these two things are similar is nothing more than a false equivalency.
 
What's the analogous term for you guys on this (i.e. it's the same as the birther argument).

Sorry I didn't realize requesting tax returns was veiled racism.

Also, I didn't realize that Obama's entire presidential bid was based around the fact that he was American.

The fact that presidential candidates for decades have released years of tax returns coupled with the fact that Team Romney squirms anytime the idea is brought up is more than enough reason to call for them because there's obviously a reason he doesn't want to just do what every candidate for years has done.

Obama released his birth certificate twice. It is NOT common for presidential candiates to have their place of birth questioned. The entire basis for the birther movement is a conspiracy theory that he's a secret Kenyan Muslim. There's no precedence for that movement other than them being suspicious of a black man. There IS precedence for the calling of tax returns, because all modern presidential candidates release them.

The idea that these two things are similar is nothing more than a false equivalency.

Also that.
 
About Romneys taxes.

Obama cheerleaders want to see it because the one year shown so far is under the assumption that it heavily influenced to look good, and even with that it was terrible (not illegal) for the Romney campaign. Imagine what more years would look like. On top of this it obviously pushes a nerve on the Romney campaign, which is always good for the pro-Obama campaign.

Liberals in general want to see it because, like before, it was the poster child to how much the tax code favors the rich and they can use that to push for fairer taxes.

This is somthing that is common for presidential candidates to release. Look at Romneys own dads statements about releasing them.
We don't want Romney to release his returns just because his daddy did it. He should release his returns because he is running based on his experience as a businessman. This is different. It's part of the vetting process. The man simply won't release them not because he did something wrong (he didn't), it's because he thinks he can coast along. It's working so far, because people are still pretty much favoring him and Obama equally in the polls.
 
The fact that presidential candidates for decades have released years of tax returns coupled with the fact that Team Romney squirms and lies anytime the idea is brought up is more than enough reason to call for them because there's obviously a reason he doesn't want to just do what every candidate for years has done.


Fixed.
 

Kosmo

Banned
We don't want Romney to release his returns just because his daddy did it. He should release his returns because he is running based on his experience as a businessman. This is different. It's part of the vetting process. The man simply won't release them not because he did something wrong (he didn't), it's because he thinks he can coast along. It's working so far, because people are still pretty much favoring him and Obama equally in the polls.

Hence the birther analogy - Obama like it because people just kept talking about it and it wasn't until Trump really started pressing that he had to release it. Romney is probably fine letting the left grouse about it - there is no reason for him to release anything else. It's not a requirement of running, he has released his recent tax return and will release 2011 and if he was doing anything illegal, the IRS will step in.

To think he is going to release them simply so the Obama team can try and put optics on them is crazy talk.

The idea that these two things are similar is nothing more than a false equivalency.

True. Being a natural born US citizen is a requirement of the Presidency, releasing tax returns is no. Quit acting a fool.
 
Hence the birther analogy - Obama like it because people just kept talking about it and it wasn't until Trump really started pressing that he had to release it. Romney is probably fine letting the left grouse about it - there is no reason for him to release anything else. It's not a requirement of running, he has released his recent tax return and will release 2011 and if he was doing anything illegal, the IRS will step in.

To think he is going to release them simply so the Obama team can try and put optics on them is crazy talk.



True. Being a natural born US citizen is a requirement of the Presidency, releasing tax returns is no. Quit acting a fool.

This is nothing like the birther situation. Everyone fucking releases their tax info. 10-20 years worth every presidential election. When the fuck has any candidate had to present a birth certificate? It's totally different.
 

Measley

Junior Member
The fact that presidential candidates for decades have released years of tax returns coupled with the fact that Team Romney squirms anytime the idea is brought up is more than enough reason to call for them because there's obviously a reason he doesn't want to just do what every candidate for years has done.

Obama released his birth certificate twice. It is NOT common for presidential candiates to have their place of birth questioned. The entire basis for the birther movement is a conspiracy theory that he's a secret Kenyan Muslim. There's no precedence for that movement other than them being suspicious of a black man. There IS precedence for the calling of tax returns, because all modern presidential candidates release them.

The idea that these two things are similar is nothing more than a false equivalency.

I think the big thing about this is that Romney released 23 years worth of tax returns to the McCain campaign, but is hesitant to do it for the American people. That implies that there's something in there that he doesn't want the public to see.

I mean seriously, you're running for the presidency. EVERYTHING is on the table, and your past is going to be mined through like crazy. I refuse to believe that Romney is arrogant enough to think that the standard presidential fact checking wasn't going to apply to him.
 

CHEEZMO™

Obsidian fan
2C52s.gif
 

Tim-E

Member
True. Being a natural born US citizen is a requirement of the Presidency, releasing tax returns is no. Quit acting a fool.

So you think people were right in questioning Obama's citizenship when it's not common for other candidates to have that questioned?

Call me a fool, but you're the one who just attempted to legitimize the birther movement in order to attempt to convince yourself that releasing tax info isn't something that presidential candidates do.
 
Hence the birther analogy - Obama like it because people just kept talking about it and it wasn't until Trump really started pressing that he had to release it. Romney is probably fine letting the left grouse about it - there is no reason for him to release anything else. It's not a requirement of running, he has released his recent tax return and will release 2011 and if he was doing anything illegal, the IRS will step in.
But it's different than Birther shouts to release birth certificate. Both aren't required by law to be released for presidential race. Releasing Tax returns is a conduct of a good politician and 2) Romney should release his tax returns not because it's a good thing to do, but because his entire argument for his qualification for presidency is his tenure at Bain Co. and there are lingering questions about his departure.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Hence the birther analogy - Obama like it because people just kept talking about it and it wasn't until Trump really started pressing that he had to release it. Romney is probably fine letting the left grouse about it - there is no reason for him to release anything else. It's not a requirement of running, he has released his recent tax return and will release 2011 and if he was doing anything illegal, the IRS will step in.

To think he is going to release them simply so the Obama team can try and put optics on them is crazy talk.



True. Being a natural born US citizen is a requirement of the Presidency, releasing tax returns is no. Quit acting a fool.

Ah, this post is more like th old Kosmo, where I was convinced he was a joke character. Wrong-but-reasonable Kosmo was a fleeting phenomenon. Gods to have you back in full retard mode.
 

Kosmo

Banned
So you think people were right in questioning Obama's citizenship when it's not common for other candidates to have that questioned?

Call me a fool, but you're the one who just attempted to legitimize the birther movement in order to attempt to convince yourself that releasing tax info isn't something that presidential candidates do.

No, YOU legitimized it by asking a candidate to release information that isn't even required to be released to be President. Yes, Presidential candidates generally release tax return information. McCain released two years worth (2006-07), Bush II only provided his return for 2000 and then all while elected President), Clinton did the same, beginning in 1992, and Bush I released 89-91

Why do you require Romney to be held to a higher standard than what almost every Presidential nominee has released in the past?
 

RDreamer

Member
Hence the birther analogy - Obama like it because people just kept talking about it and it wasn't until Trump really started pressing that he had to release it. Romney is probably fine letting the left grouse about it - there is no reason for him to release anything else. It's not a requirement of running, he has released his recent tax return and will release 2011 and if he was doing anything illegal, the IRS will step in.

To think he is going to release them simply so the Obama team can try and put optics on them is crazy talk.

You really think he's fine not releasing it? I mean I'm not saying he's going to. He's a stubborn jackass, so I kind of doubt he is, but still. He's not fine. The longer he holds out, the longer the conversation stays here. It's going to stay here for a bit, and then when he releases a pathetic 1 more year from this year, the conversation is going to roar back up again. Why in hell would Romney want the conversation to stay about his tax returns? Aren't most of you on the Republican side of the mind that the conversation needs to be about the economy in order for Romney to win? Romney right now is essentially letting Obama distract everyone with ease. Even Republicans are calling for him to release the shit, and it's probably going to just get worse. The other thing is that people aren't dumb. They realize that he's getting pounded now, and that means that whatever pounding he'd take for the taxes actually being released would have to be worse for him to keep them under wraps. And the excuse of Obama will use them against him doesn't hold water, either. Most people are going to wonder about that, too. They want to be the judge of that. If he knows he's going to be criticized on something, then it might just be criticism worthy, and hiding it doesn't help you.

And the implication isn't on him doing anything illegal. That's just silly and mincing Stephanie Cutter's words and intentions. The implication is that Romney is misleading the American people, most likely. I doubt the dude does anything illegal. He may be bad at running a campaign and a complete idiot with people sometimes, but I don't think he's an outright criminal when it comes to that stuff. He probably does everything by the book, and as he said he probably goes for every tax break he can find. The thing is that all of this is completely relevant to his presidential bid. He says he's a good businessman and that's why we should elect him. On tax policy, he thinks things are possibly too high right now, and we should lower taxes. He doesn't think the rich aren't paying enough. In fact he believes if people like him are taxed more, there will be less jobs. Now, if he's proud of his business accomplishments and he really, truthfully thinks what he does about taxes, then what's the problem? Show 'em. Show how you're paying too much. Show what you're paying at all! That's what we'd all like to know.

But yeah, you're likely right. He won't release them. But it's not just Obama he's afraid of. I think if the American people really catch a glimpse at what's going on in our tax code, he's dead in the water, and the tax system will be revamped. The entire Republican narrative would likely get beat to a pulp, and Romney would be the poster child for all the changes.
 
Taking a break from the Kosmo shenanigans:
Reid is promising filibuster reform if Democrats hold the Senate: here. Which sets the stage, I think, for McConnell to do the same should Romney win the presidency and he becomes majority leader.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Breaking from the Kosmo shenanigans:
Reid is promising filibuster reform if Democrats hold the Senate: here. Which sets the stage, I think, for McConnell to do the same should Romney win the presidency and he becomes majority leader.

"Filibuster reform held up in Senate . . . by filibuster."
 
No, YOU legitimized it by asking a candidate to release information that isn't even required to be released to be President. Yes, Presidential candidates generally release tax return information. McCain released two years worth (2006-07), Bush II only provided his return for 2000 and then all while elected President), Clinton did the same, beginning in 1992, and Bush I released 89-91

Why do you require Romney to be held to a higher standard than what almost every Presidential nominee has released in the past?
You are missing the point. Look at my previous post. Romney's tenure at Bain Co is relevant to voters. His tax returns answer important questions about his taxes. There are lingering questions about his departure from Bain co. If something is legal, admired, and answers lot of important questions, why not do it?
 
Romney Campaign: Obama can't create jobs because he spent his early years in Hawaii smoking something

SUNUNU: This guy doesn’t understand how to create jobs. So there is no surprise — there should be because of that statement no surprise on why he failed so miserably over the last four years, in terms of job creation. He has no idea how the American system functions, and we shouldn’t be surprised about that, because he spent his early years in Hawaii smoking something, spent the next set of years in Indonesia, another set of years in Indonesia, and, frankly, when he came to the U.S. he worked as a community organizer, which is a socialized structure, and then got into politics in Chicago.


What is this....I don't even....
 
Future headline. That site is blocked at my work, but can they actually do filibuster reform without 60 to bring it to a vote?

I don't tout this as fact but just a quick search. Sorry if incorrect:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/07/how_to_end_the_filibuster_with.html

If you can't manage the 60 votes to overcome a filibuster, you can't manage the 67 votes to change the rules and end the filibuster. At least in theory.

But in practice, there's another path open to the Senate's growing ranks of reformers: The so-called "constitutional option," which is being pushed particularly hard by Sen. Tom Udall, but is increasingly being seen as a viable path forward by his colleagues.

The constitutional option gets its name from Article I, Section V of the Constitution, which states that "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings." In order to fulfill this constitutional order, the Senate must be able to, well, determine its rules. A filibuster, technically, is a way to stop the Senate from determining something by refusing to allow it to move to a vote. Because stopping the Senate from considering its own rules would be unconstitutional, the chair can rule against the filibuster, and the Senate could then move to change its rules on a majority vote.

One caveat: Many people, including Udall himself, believe this has to happen at the beginning of a new Congress. If it doesn't happen at the beginning of a new Congress, then Congress is considered to have acquiesced to the previous Congress's rules, and a filibuster against further rule changes wouldn't interrupt the constitutional right to determine the rules.

This is not a radical theory, or a partisan one: Both Richard Nixon, then the vice president and thus the president of the Senate, and Robert Byrd, then majority leader and considered the greatest parliamentarian to ever walk the chamber, have argued in favor of the constitutional option.

Martin Gold recounted Nixon's argument in a 2004 article for the Harvard Law Review: "Nixon reasoned that because no Senate could deny a future Senate the ability to exercise a constitutional right, and because Rule XXII, paragraph three [the filibuster] "in practice" prevented a majority of Senators from adopting new rules, Rule XXII, paragraph three, was unconstitutional," at least when it came to blocking consideration of new rules. Byrd was even pithier: "This Congress is not obliged to be bound by the dead hand of the past," he said.

But for all the theory, the constitutional option has never quite been used in practice. Instead, it's been repeatedly, and effectively, almost used. In 1917, Senate reformers were ready to use against the filibuster. A compromise was brokered, and that's how cloture -- the ability to shut off a filibuster -- was created. In 1975, reformers again were ready to wield it against the filibuster, and this time, a motion to uphold the constitutional option passed and a motion to table it failed. And again, a compromise was brokered, this time bringing the number of votes necessary to breach the filibuster down from two-thirds of the Senate to three-fifths. The option was also considered for various reasons in 1953, 1957, 1961, 1963, 1967, 1969, 1971, and 1979.

And that gets to the real role that the constitutional option could play: If Democrats lay out a clear path to changing the rules through a majority vote, and if they show enough unity to convince Republicans that they'll really try it, you might see a hasty decision to reach some sort of bipartisan compromise on the rules. But if Democrats push this strategy only to find themselves unable to follow through on it, they may find that they've lost their ability to protest rules changes if Republicans decide to pursue the same strategy when they eventually retake the Senate.
 
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