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[NYCmetsfan]

So snowden is continuing to sound like a ”pissed at Obama” libertarian. No surprise there. No mention of any new data either.

Greenwald has said he has everything.

And yeah. Every since I found out snowden deliberately sought the job I've disliked him immensely.

That being said I still do think that the debate over the NSA programs can and should happen independently of my dislike of the leak and leaker. Its out there now.
Though I really don't find anything "outrageous" so far. I just would like more forceful and a bit more transparent justifications and oversight.

Anything that can make the debate more informed.

 

[Link]

Republicans Are Rushing to Remind You That Hillary Clinton Is Old

That's a great strategy, GOP. Alienate the one last constituent group you have, old people.

Clinton is 65 years old right now. By the time 2016 rolls around, she'll be 70 years old.

Dat math.

 

[B-Dubs]

Dat math.

So 3 = 5 now? Are they hoping nobody notices they can't do basic math?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

So 3 = 5 now? Are they hoping nobody notices they can't do basic math?

Well her birthday is in October. But she still will be 69

 

[jamesinclair]

69 is too old for me.

I dont want anyone born before 1980 running.

We dont need more dinosaurs running on their 1950s values.

 

[Trakdown]

So 3 = 5 now? A

Maybe they're like King Arthur in Monty Python.

 

[Palom]

If Hilary were elected in 2016, she would be the same age as Ronald Reagan when he was elected into office. Not to mention women live longer than men.

 

[Oblivion]

Some good news on the recent SC decisions:

The first poll (from USAToday) is now out weighing public reaction to the batch of major Supreme Court decisions last week, and they should provide a tonic to progressives. Support for same-sex marriage has now spiked to an unprecedented 55/40 margin. Even in the South, opposition has dropped below 50%, though it remains right up here at 68% among self-identified Republicans nationally.

Somewhat more surprisingly, support for affirmative action benefitting minorities bounced upwards to a 53/37 margin after major publicity over SCOTUS’ tightening of judicial guidelines for use of race-based criteria in college admissions. And respondents disapproved of the Court’s blow against Section 4 of the Voting Rights Act by a 49/40 margin, which may be a testimony to the quick reaction of voting rights advocates after the decision, given its highly technical nature and the relatively positive spin provided by many MSM observers. I’d like to think this finding would give pause to southern Republicans racing to exploit the decision by enacting voting restrictions that would have trigged Justice Department scrutiny when Section 4 was in place. But I’m not that naive.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Dat math.

Not only that but Jesus Ronald Reagan was 69 when elected.

 

[jamesinclair]

Not only that but Jesus Ronald Reagan was 69 when elected.

And look how well that worked out.

 

[RustyNails]

69 is too old for me.

I dont want anyone born before 1980 running.

We dont need more dinosaurs running on their 1950s values.

I don't know about you but I'd make fake IDs to vote for Noam Chomsky if he were running.

 

[jamesinclair]

I don't know about you but I'd make fake IDs to vote for Noam Chomsky if he were running.

Who?

 

[speculawyer]

Wendy is currently a star . . . but Kirk Watson, Wendy Davis, Leticia Van de Putte and Royce West (the guy to the left, the woman to the right, and the guy to the right of Wendy) deserve some serious props. Without them them, the filibuster would have failed. I was annoyed every time I read an article saying Wendy "single-handedly" beat the law. I'm sure she wouldn't like that phrasing either.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Who?

Some old guy no one really should care about other than his work in linguistics.

 

[RustyNails]

Some old guy no one really should care about other than his work in linguistics.

Tsk tsk.

 

[speculawyer]

Dat math.

Yeah, when I read that article, I read that paragraph like 3 times thinking I was stupid before realizing the writer was just stupid.

 

[RustyNails]

Here I thought Chomsky wouldve been the hero of socialist poligaf.

 

[Angry Fork]

Here I thought Chomsky wouldve been the hero of socialist poligaf.

It seems most people who post in here regularly are liberals, some of them with nasty nationalist tendencies. The socialists stick to other random OT threads. I do check this thread every now and then but I don't have the patience to get involved when all people do is obsess about polls and Hilary.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Are there even any Socialist PoliGAF regulars outside of (I think) EV and Chichikov?

 

[Fuchsdh]

Wendy is currently a star . . . but Kirk Watson, Wendy Davis, Leticia Van de Putte and Royce West (the guy to the left, the woman to the right, and the guy to the right of Wendy) deserve some serious props. Without them them, the filibuster would have failed. I was annoyed every time I read an article saying Wendy "single-handedly" beat the law. I'm sure she wouldn't like that phrasing either.

Makes a better story like always. Still, I give props to any politician of any stripe who actually does a filibuster like that. Most wouldn't put themselves through that unless you've really got something they care about on the line.

 

[Chichikov]

So snowden is continuing to sound like a ”pissed at Obama” libertarian. No surprise there. No mention of any new data either.

Not that his political leanings should matter all that much, but they revoked his passport, what did you expect him to say?

Spoiler

I would expect him to say Thanks, Obama!, but I always expect sarcastic meme based humor.

I see nothing wrong with his statement in general.
What specifically bothered you?

 

[Tendo]

Wendy is currently a star . . . but Kirk Watson, Wendy Davis, Leticia Van de Putte and Royce West (the guy to the left, the woman to the right, and the guy to the right of Wendy) deserve some serious props. Without them them, the filibuster would have failed. I was annoyed every time I read an article saying Wendy "single-handedly" beat the law. I'm sure she wouldn't like that phrasing either.

Amazing picture. My roommate, my girlfriend, and myself all stayed up to watch that go down and I'll never forget those four people. So proud of all of them, especially Leticia's bomb drop to seal the deal.

 

[speculawyer]

Amazing picture. My roommate, my girlfriend, and myself all stayed up to watch that go down and I'll never forget those four people. So proud of all of them, especially Leticia's bomb drop to seal the deal.

Did you follow the GAF thread? It was quite lively. I was amazed that I sat there for 3 hours watching a feed of the Texas Senate.

The youtube feed went from a few thousand viewers up to 200,000 viewers. It was quite the political drama. And yeah, all four were big. Wendy did talk for hours and hours . . . but if not for those other three in the last two hours, it would have failed.

 

[jamesinclair]

It seems most people who post in here regularly are liberals, some of them with nasty nationalist tendencies..

Who?

 

[B-Dubs]

Did you follow the GAF thread? It was quite lively. I was amazed that I sat there for 3 hours watching a feed of the Texas Senate.

The youtube feed went from a few thousand viewers up to 200,000 viewers. It was quite the political drama. And yeah, all four were big. Wendy did talk for hours and hours . . . but if not for those other three in the last two hours, it would have failed.

That thread was amazing. I didn't think much of it until the whole thing was 3 hours from the deadline. Just those three hours was a hell of a watch, why CNN didn't have that steam on-air I will never know. This is the shit that 24-hour news networks exist to bring us.

It was riveting. Wilson was my hero, he was my Gandalf for this story. This was the political equivalent of Helm's Deep. Then when Leticia spit fire so hot it led to a 15 minute cheer? I was dead. I can only dream of the day that the US Senate will be so riveting.

 

[platypotamus]

Are there even any Socialist PoliGAF regulars outside of (I think) EV and Chichikov?

Me, though I don't post as much as I used to

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Not that his political leanings should matter all that much, but they revoked his passport, what did you expect him to say?

Spoiler

I would expect him to say Thanks, Obama!, but I always expect sarcastic meme based humor.

I see nothing wrong with his statement in general.
What specifically bothered you?

The original use of the plural for the United states.

But seriously a lot. The insinuation that Obama is making him and exile and the insinuation that our acceptance of asylum means we need to accept his asylum request. It reads "me me me"

Who?

I'd assume I'd be one. I wouldn't consider myself nationalistic but rather a person who views the world through the lens of states and sees himself best represented by the US

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Are there even any Socialist PoliGAF regulars outside of (I think) EV and Chichikov?

I try to post more but

I do check this thread every now and then but I don't have the patience to get involved when all people do is obsess about polls and Hilary.

also i enjoy lurking more than posting for some reason.

 

[Gotchaye]

My sense is that polls and Hillary dominate the conversation because there's not a whole lot of political diversity among regular posters. When there's disagreement - about Snowden, for example - there's a lot more talk about what politics should be rather than about how politics is.

 

[Tamanon]

Also, this is the PoliGAF thread, so it's your general politics stuff(which means speculation, polls and general silliness). I try to keep the specialized discussion to individual threads.

 

[speculawyer]

That thread was amazing. I didn't think much of it until the whole thing was 3 hours from the deadline. Just those three hours was a hell of a watch, why CNN didn't have that steam on-air I will never know. This is the shit that 24-hour news networks exist to bring us.

It was riveting. Wilson was my hero, he was my Gandalf for this story. This was the political equivalent of Helm's Deep. Then when Leticia spit fire so hot it led to a 15 minute cheer? I was dead. I can only dream of the day that the US Senate will be so riveting.

Yeah, Kirk Watson would ask them brain puzzlers that would have them call a break for 15 minutes. That was awesome. It was parliamentary jujitsu.

 

[Chichikov]

The original use of the plural for the United states.

I don't see it?
But yeah, that's a minor point, we don't have to dwell on it if you don't want to.

But seriously a lot. The insinuation that Obama is making him and exile and the insinuation that our acceptance of asylum means we need to accept his asylum request. It reads "me me me"

He pretty much did made him an exile, didn't he?
I don't want to play the semantics game, but revoking your passport is a bit of a harsh penalty, as far as I know we don't do it for murderers who escape the country.

And I'm not sure I'm seeing the "me me me" you're talking about, sure, he's talking about the treatment he's getting, don't you think that's a reasonable thing to someone

 

[Tamanon]

I don't see it?
But yeah, that's a minor point, we don't have to dwell on it if you don't want to.


He pretty much did made him an exile, didn't he?
I don't want to play the semantics game, but revoking your passport is a bit of a harsh penalty, as far as I know we don't do it for murderers who escape the country.

And I'm not sure I'm seeing the "me me me" you're talking about, sure, he's talking about the treatment he's getting, don't you think that's a reasonable thing to someone

Well, murderers don't represent a continued threat to the United States intelligence community and diplomacy. I mean, you can argue about the programs themselves, but the second he started moving past domestic revelations, he became more of a threat.

And he's not an exile, in that he can always come back to America. He's a self-exile.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I don't see it?
But yeah, that's a minor point, we don't have to dwell on it if you don't want to.

It was a joke...in the original draft (Wiki leaks edited it) it said "the United States have been" instead of "has been"

But on the point of making him an exile or stateless I don't think he has. A felony warrant means the state department can cancel your passport, which is not an absolute right. He's not stateless, he's a US citizen ans entitled to his day on court if the US tries to call him an enemy combatant and deny constitutional rights I will condemned their actions. All the state department says is he's accused of a crime and the SoS doesn't grant the privileges of the US passport. Which says they request uninterrupted passage. He's entitled to come back to the US at any time.

He's broken the law, Obama is trying to get someone who has broken the law back to face his charges.

To be truthfully honest I think wikileaks wrote that statement

 

[zero shift]

Glad to know that I'm not the only one who is indifferent toward Hilary. All I can say about her is "At least she isn't a Republican."

As for Chomsky, well he's respectable but does go a bit overboard some times. I do find it amusing how centrists and rightist do their damnedest to paint him bleak.

Here I thought Chomsky wouldve been the hero of socialist poligaf.

A fair share of Gaffers tend to be well to do people. This goes double for non-American/Western Europe GAF. Just look at how South American GAF hates every left wing leader but Lula. Don't forget this is a videogame forum at the end of the day. Not too many people of such a crowd would embrace far left politics. Its not a cheap hobby.

Are there even any Socialist PoliGAF regulars outside of (I think) EV and Chichikov?

I'm personally not even sure what I am anymore. I don't identify as a liberal, nor as a socialist. I'm alone!

 

[Clevinger]

Hillary will just be Obama part 2. Maybe with some cojones this time though.

 

[KtSlime]

Well, murderers don't represent a continued threat to the United States intelligence community and diplomacy. I mean, you can argue about the programs themselves, but the second he started moving past domestic revelations, he became more of a threat.

And he's not an exile, in that he can always come back to America. He's a self-exile.

The United State's diplomacy is threatened not by Snowden but by the fact that they were spying on their allies, which leads to a dislike and distrust of the US which in turn causes us to arm up and surveil even more, reinforce that us vs. them mentality.

I think he should come back to the US, but with the provisions his father mentioned this weekend. But I doubt the US could even be trusted in that regard, we don't have a good track record with civil rights.

 

[Chichikov]

Well, murderers don't represent a continued threat to the United States intelligence community and diplomacy. I mean, you can argue about the programs themselves, but the second he started moving past domestic revelations, he became more of a threat.

You're saying he's worse than a murderer*?
Or that he should just be treated worse than we treat murderers?
Either way, why?

* or child molester, or [insert any other heinous crime here].

And he's not an exile, in that he can always come back to America. He's a self-exile.

Can he?
This is not an important point at all, but I assume that with a revoked passport he can't board a plane pretty much anywhere, but yeah, I guess if he'll walk into an American embassy they'll figure out a way to get him to the US.

 

[Tendo]

Did you follow the GAF thread? It was quite lively. I was amazed that I sat there for 3 hours watching a feed of the Texas Senate.

The youtube feed went from a few thousand viewers up to 200,000 viewers. It was quite the political drama. And yeah, all four were big. Wendy did talk for hours and hours . . . but if not for those other three in the last two hours, it would have failed.

I did! That was how I found out about it because lolnewsmedia. Watched the Youtube stream and enjoyed the commentary - very helpful in explaining what I was seeing as far as points of inquiry etc. Literally the most intense moment/thing I ever experienced. The last 3 hours were incredible to witness. "At what point must a female senator raise her hand or her voice to be recognized over her male colleagues?" was an amazing moment.

It was riveting. Wilson was my hero, he was my Gandalf for this story. This was the political equivalent of Helm's Deep. Then when Leticia spit fire so hot it led to a 15 minute cheer? I was dead. I can only dream of the day that the US Senate will be so riveting.

No doubt. That last hour was just a political football. Davis is obviously incredible but The other 3, West, Watson, and Van Der Putte deserve so much credit as well. What a team. When I was in HOSA in high school there was an event for parliamentary procedure. I always thought "what a worthless event." That night showed how wrong I was and how exciting rules can be.

 

[Tamanon]

You're saying he's worse than a murderer*?
Or that he should just be treated worse than we treat murderers?
Either way, why?

* or child molester, or [insert any other heinous crime here].

Can he?
This is not an important point at all, but I assume that with a revoked passport he can't board a plane pretty much anywhere, but yeah, I guess if he'll walk into an American embassy they'll figure out a way to get him to the US.

I never said he was worse than a murderer, I said he was more of a threat to diplomacy and the intelligence community than a common murderer. Which is a truth.

The United State's diplomacy is threatened not by Snowden but by the fact that they were spying on their allies, which leads to a dislike and distrust of the US which in turn causes us to arm up and surveil even more, reinforce that us vs. them mentality.

I think he should come back to the US, but with the provisions his father mentioned this weekend. But I doubt the US could even be trusted in that regard, we don't have a good track record with civil rights.

I would say it's not the spying on our allies(which every country is aware of and in this case even helps us with) but the revelation of it in the public arena that is causing the damage.

 

[KtSlime]

I never said he was worse than a murderer, I said he was more of a threat to diplomacy and the intelligence community than a common murderer. Which is a truth.



I would say it's not the spying on our allies(which every country is aware of and in this case even helps us with) but the revelation of it in the public arena that is causing the damage.

If everyone already knows then Snowden did nothing wrong and as a free citizen can go to visit Hong Kong and Russia.

I don't know about you but I thought that the US was a representative republic, and that they were doing things on my behalf. I should be able to be informed and voice my concerns, and without whistleblowers, my ability to be an effective citizen of the United States is seriously compromised. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Hillary will just be Obama part 2. Maybe with some cojones this time though.

That or supermajorities.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Here I thought Chomsky wouldve been the hero of socialist poligaf.

There's only one socialist here, I think. Everyone else is a mixture of liberals and Obama apologists.

 

[Chichikov]

I never said he was worse than a murderer, I said he was more of a threat to diplomacy and the intelligence community than a common murderer. Which is a truth.

What threat he is to the intelligence community?
First of all, pretty much all the stuff he said was either known or assumed, but maybe more importantly do you really think he still pose a threat?
And not only a threat, but a threat that such harsh treatment can mitigate?

Also,I really don't accept the diplomacy angle, did you really think this would have never been found out?
The programs themselves are to blame much more (and again, most of this was known).

Let's stop playing games, this is not about Snowden, this is about deterring the next whistleblower, which might be an Ellesburg, might be Deep Throat, and might that guy who never quite came forward who could've told us exactly how crappy was Bush's case for the Iraq War.
And sheeeeit, it's not like he's wasn't going to pay a pretty steep personal price without going to such extreme lengths, I really thing this stuff is beyond excessive.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Snowden is too dumb to think things through. I think all this would do to the next whistleblower is to stay anonymous, collate their information and release what needs to be.

Of course the US is going to try and get him extradited but I doubt he's anything other than a pawn being played.

Most of the public just doesn't care and I don't blame them since privacy is kinda dead now. I think this will be more about international politics.

 

[The Librarian]

I like her frock.

 

[Jooney]

Are you gonna do this again any time soon? This country is a huge place! Despite Canada and Russia being bigger, we're probably the biggest country with the largest amount of living space.

I'm jealous!

Yeah ill defintely be back. At the very least to see my brother who lives in Brooklyn.

 

[Zona]

Are there even any Socialist PoliGAF regulars outside of (I think) EV and Chichikov?

I'm really more of a dedicated lurker then an active participant but my person beliefs might best be described as socialist, though Techno-Socialist may be a better term. It's complicated by the fact that I don't believe socialism & communism as Marks envisioned them can work outside of a post-scarcity environment. Because of this my voting politics tend to be more progressive liberal with the aim of minimizing harm until such a state can be achieved. The Nordic model is my base for harm reduction with an investment focus in science and the exploitation of space based resources.

 

[Chichikov]

Snowden is too dumb to think things through. I think all this would do to the next whistleblower is to stay anonymous, collate their information and release what needs to be.

Of course the US is going to try and get him extradited but I doubt he's anything other than a pawn being played.

Most of the public just doesn't care and I don't blame them since privacy is kinda dead now. I think this will be more about international politics.

The next would be whistleblower is likely less likely to blow its whistle.
This is the NSA's goal, this is the Obama administration's goal, I just don't really think the public interest is served by that.

Historically, whistleblowers, even if you look only at those from the intelligence community are a net benefit for this country.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Well, are we differentiating between corporate and government whistle blowers? Are they different? Other than national security and even then the line gets blurry.