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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1

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A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Oblivion said:
Eh..yes, and no, imo.

Yes, it's depressing that fucking agency appointments have to deal with this level of fuckery, but Lisa Jackson heading the EPA in particular, will have far, far reaching consequences. Some libs say it could be even better than getting a cap and trade bill passed, even!

So yeah, don't be too downtrodden.
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Of course, if Democrats could say, win the House back and pass a climate change bill, well that would just be the cherry on top.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
rocketknight said:
This is the fucking problem with the Democratic party - they think that getting the shit they're supposed to get is some kind of win. There is no "bargaining power" with this, because all the Democrats get if they win is shit they're supposed to already have. It's the same as the debt ceiling nonsense where Democrats are forced to adopt shitty positions worse than the status quo of 50+ years as their starting points for negotiations. It just allows the GOP to pull everything to the right and it's dumb.
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Nothing was pulled to the right as a result of this deal, and Democrats got pretty much everything they wanted. The GOP folded big time here and everybody can see that. I see where you're coming from, but honestly I think you're letting your emotions cloud your view of the content of the deal because you didn't get the result you wanted. Take a step back and realize that the Democrats lost nothing here. They got what they're supposed to already have, as you put it.

Throwing the filibuster in with all forms of brinkmanship governing does a disservice to the nature of the problem with the filibuster. If anything, we might start seeing the majority threaten nuclear option a lot more as a kind of new regular order until one side blinks.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
rocketknight said:
This is the fucking problem with the Democratic party - they think that getting the shit they're supposed to get is some kind of win. There is no "bargaining power" with this, because all the Democrats get if they win is shit they're supposed to already have. It's the same as the debt ceiling nonsense where Democrats are forced to adopt shitty positions worse than the status quo of 50+ years as their starting points for negotiations. It just allows the GOP to pull everything to the right and it's dumb.
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Agreed.

I don't want to hear about "wins" when the very debate is being fought so far out of the mainstream of how the senate worked just 8 years ago. And in a year when Ted Cruz and company filibuster someone during 2014 posturing, we'll have this discussion again. If you're going to shoot, shoot.

It'll be interesting to see how Tom Perez' cloture vote goes.
 
F

FLEABttn

Banned
Bishman said:
My friend just sent me this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rwmD4c_NxI

How do I counter this?
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Bishman said:
USA is transforming into Half-life and turning into a totalitarian government.
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I scanned it a bit on my phone. There's nothing to counter. It's like asking how to counter "Zeitgeist" - if someone is that stupid to believe a dystopian, totalitarian, conspiritard video on YouTube, there's no no helping them. There's no actual debate to be had.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
FLEABttn said:
I scanned it a bit on my phone. There's nothing to counter. It's like asking how to counter "Zeitgeist" - if someone is that stupid to believe a dystopian, totalitarian, conspiritard video on YouTube, there's no no helping them. There's no actual debate to be had.
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Yea, if your friend believes this then he's probably a lost cause.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
FLEABttn said:
I scanned it a bit on my phone. There's nothing to counter. It's like asking how to counter "Zeitgeist" - if someone is that stupid to believe a dystopian, totalitarian, conspiritard video on YouTube, there's no no helping them. There's no actual debate to be had.
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I'm ashamed to say I bought in to the Zeitgeist bullshit in my younger days. :(
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Avon Barksdale said:
Liz Cheney (Dick's daughter) may run for Senate in Wyoming.
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Get Dave Freudenthal in there. Popular former two term governor as recently as 2011, clearly someone who knows how to get elected as a Democrat in a red state. Against Cheney he could give Democrats a real shot here.

there is no chance in hell of Democrats ever winning this
 
R

rocketknight

Member
Dax01 said:
Nothing was pulled to the right as a result of this deal, and Democrats got pretty much everything they wanted. The GOP folded big time here and everybody can see that. I see where you're coming from, but honestly I think you're letting your emotions cloud your view of the content of the deal because you didn't get the result you wanted. Take a step back and realize that the Democrats lost nothing here. They got what they're supposed to already have, as you put it.

Throwing the filibuster in with all forms of brinkmanship governing does a disservice to the nature of the problem with the filibuster. If anything, we might start seeing the majority threaten nuclear option a lot more as a kind of new regular order until one side blinks.
Click to expand...
Right, but what this does is set precedent for doing absurd posturing bullshit every time we want to do a normal-ass thing we're entitled to do, like have enough people in agencies for them to function. That's a GOP win even without getting into how we're letting them have more power over who we nominate.

Link said:
I don't understand this. It's not like they handed over the gun.
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The only reason to be happy about not shooting is if you like doing this over and over and over. Shoot once, things work almost how they're supposed to. Never shoot, things continue to hump along towards parody every time a Tea Partier needs votes or wants a Fox position.
 
A

Avon Barksdale

Member
Aaron Strife said:
Get Dave Freudenthal in there. Popular former two term governor as recently as 2011, clearly someone who knows how to get elected as a Democrat in a red state. Against Cheney he could give Democrats a real shot here.

there is no chance in hell of Democrats ever winning this
Click to expand...


Never underestimate the stupidity of the GOP.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
rocketknight said:
Right, but what this does is set precedent for doing absurd posturing bullshit every time we want to do a normal-ass thing we're entitled to do, like have enough people in agencies for them to function. That's a GOP win even without getting into how we're letting them have more power over who we nominate.
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Eh. Reform will come to the Senate eventually if this keeps up. However, if we follow your logic through, ending the filibuster on executive nominations would've been a "GOP win" because that'll set a precedent of them doing something like that in the future. The GOP exercised no control over who gets nominated as a result of this deal.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Dax01 said:
Eh. Reform will come to the Senate eventually if this keeps up. However, if we follow your logic through, ending the filibuster on executive nominations would've been a "GOP win" because that'll set a precedent of them doing something like that in the future. The GOP exercised no control over who gets nominated as a result of this deal.
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Pretty sure everyone here recognizes republicans will end the actual filibuster when they re-take the senate, that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

This part of the filibuster will be ended sooner or later, I'd rather it be ended now. The analogy about the "gun" being more valuable as a threat doesn't make sense to me. It just means republicans can fuck around with nominees for a few months before Reid threatens another change, McCain steps in with a compromise, and we're back to square one for another year. I'm tired of that.
 
K

KingK

Member
rocketknight said:
No, this is another negotiation where the GOP gives up nothing, but people think they are because of how dysfunctional the new normal is. I mean, this isn't even a neutral status quo - it's worse than the way things are supposed to go, because the GOP is reaching in and stirring the pot with regards to administrative positions that have enough votes to be confirmed. Dems lose by having to pick overly GOP friendly candidates, GOP doesn't lose anything at all. No joy in Mudville today.



What Reid wants isn't enough, so him getting it doesn't mean anything to anyone else. Having the filibuster reform option in the future simply means that he can use it to make more bad bargains like this later, so that the GOP wins a little bit every time and we get more conservative people filling these positions than we have to.

The only way to see this as a "win" is if you see "oh wow we can actually have a functioning CFPB and stuff" as a happy surprise, instead of how things are supposed to already be working.
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Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Rocketnight and PD. Harry Reid is a cowardly piece of shit.

All of you people saying that the Democrats "won" this deal do realize that if Reid just nuked the filibuster we wouldn't even have to being having all of these damn "deals" right? Democrats could just pass the appointments they want because they have the majority. I literally can't see a single upside to Reid agreeing to this deal rather than just getting rid of the filibuster. They would have gotten everything they got and more, without having to worry about these shenanigans happening again the very next time a new nomination happens.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
ivysaur12 said:
Wrong Cheney, that's her sister.
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Heh. I wonder if we'll see any "I'm not the gay one. That's my sister!"

By the way, Nate Cohn is making fun of the Constitution on Twitter, saying that Wyoming shouldn't have two senators. "There are more Obama voters in Brooklyn than the state of Wyoming."
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Dax01 said:
Heh. I wonder if we'll see any "I'm not the gay one. That's my sister!"

By the way, Nate Cohn is making fun of the Constitution on Twitter, saying that Wyoming shouldn't have two senators. "There are more Obama voters in Brooklyn than the state of Wyoming."
Click to expand...

Connecticut compromise!
 
L

Lambtron

Unconfirmed Member
Dax01 said:
By the way, Nate Cohn is making fun of the Constitution on Twitter, saying that Wyoming shouldn't have two senators. "There are more Obama voters in Brooklyn than the state of Wyoming."
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We always get this shit in North Dakota. It's so incredibly frustrating.
 
Link

Link

The Autumn Wind
Enzi is one of the most right-wing conservatives out there; maybe Cheney replacing him wouldn't be so ba-

‏@Liz_Cheney 29 Jul
Rarely do I disagree with best VP ever but @SarahPalinUSA more qualified than Obama and Biden combined. Huge respect 4 all she's done 4 GOP.
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KILL IT WITH FIRE!!
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
Cyan said:
Well, yeah. Why should they have two senators? Voters in Wyoming are vastly overrepresented in the Senate compared to voters from... basically anywhere else. (not to mention vastly more likely to prefer backwards-ass policy)

About the same number of people live in Fresno as live in Wyoming. How many senators does Fresno have?
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I mean, I agree with him! Just thought it was funny to see him complain about it on Twitter. Hope you guys didn't read me as being on the opposite side.

“Sen. Enzi is a terrific senator and an old friend,” she said.
 
O

OmniOne

Member
Cyan said:
Well, yeah. Why should they have two senators? Voters in Wyoming are vastly overrepresented in the Senate compared to voters from... basically anywhere else. (not to mention vastly more likely to prefer backwards-ass policy)

About the same number of people live in Fresno as live in Wyoming. How many senators does Fresno have?
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I agree with this sentiment, but sadly the Senate represents States not people. Yes, Senators are now elected by the people but it still functions in the same manner. It was designed with the sole purpose of making sure Wyoming has the same power as New York. It was, I think, a questionable compromise during the founding.
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
Dax01 said:
Heh. I wonder if we'll see any "I'm not the gay one. That's my sister!"

By the way, Nate Cohn is making fun of the Constitution on Twitter, saying that Wyoming shouldn't have two senators. "There are more Obama voters in Brooklyn than the state of Wyoming."
Click to expand...

Well, Vermont probably shouldn't either then.

But D.C. should as long as both Vermont and Wyoming have two senators. But that'll never happen and the 600k+ people that live in the District will forever be unrepresented in Congress.
 
J

Jooney

Member
Senate representation is a travesty. 25% of the country are represented by 62 senators. Another 25% are represented by just 6 senators. Then funnel that shit through the arcane senate rules of procedural filibusters and anonymous holds and it's little wonder that the Senate is so dysfunctional. It's the only place in the known universe where mathematically speaking, 41 > 59.
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
This is why Republicans should be kept as far away from education as possible.


AP Exclusive: Daniels looked to censor opponents


INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Former Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels pledged to promote academic freedom when he became president of Purdue University in January, but newly released emails show he attempted to eliminate what he considered liberal "propaganda" at Indiana's public universities while governor.

Emails obtained by The Associated Press through a Freedom of Information Act request show Daniels requested that historian and anti-war activist Howard Zinn's writings be banned from classrooms and asked for a "cleanup" of college courses. In another exchange, the Republican talks about cutting funding for a program run by a local university professor who was one of his sharpest critics.

The success of those efforts remains unclear; Zinn's book, for example, is still used in some courses for aspiring teachers. But Daniels did launch an expansive push while governor to change what courses those hopeful teachers could take for credit at Indiana colleges. That effort is ongoing.

The emails are raising eyebrows about Daniels' appointment as president of a major research university just months after critics questioned his lack of academic credentials and his hiring by a board of trustees he appointed.

Ken Paulson, president of the First Amendment Center, said it's not unusual for governors or mayors to denounce art, music or popular culture. But he said he couldn't find any other examples of governors trying to censor political opponents.

"What sets this apart is what appears to be a back-channel effort by the governor to limit access to ideas," said Paulson, also dean of the College of Mass Communication at Middle Tennessee State University. "Under the First Amendment, the government is prohibited from trying to suppress expression with which it disagrees."

In a rapid exchange of emails between top state education officials on Feb. 9, 2010, including then-Superintendent of Public Instruction Tony Bennett, Daniels sought assurance that a Zinn book exploring historical events that Zinn said got little attention was removed from Indiana classrooms.

"This terrible anti-American academic has finally passed away," Daniels wrote. "The obits and commentaries mentioned his book, 'A People's History of the United States,' is the 'textbook of choice in high schools and colleges around the country.' It is a truly execrable, anti-factual piece of disinformation that misstates American history on every page.

"Can someone assure me that it is not in use anywhere in Indiana? If it is, how do we get rid of it before more young people are force-fed a totally false version of our history?"

Scott Jenkins, Daniels' education adviser, quickly responded by noting it was being used at Indiana University in a course for teachers on the Civil Rights, feminist and labor movements.

"This crap should not be accepted for any credit by the state. No student will be better taught because someone sat through this session. Which board has jurisdiction over what counts and what doesn't?" Daniels responded three minutes later.

David Shane, a top fundraiser and state school board member, quickly replied with a strategy directing Bennett and Indiana's commissioner for higher education to review university courses across the state. Shane later added that a statewide review "would force to daylight a lot of excrement."

Seven minutes later, Daniels signed off on the plan.

"Go for it. Disqualify propaganda and highlight (if there is any) the more useful offerings. Don't the ed schools have at least some substantive PD (professional development) courseware to upgrade knowledge of math, science, etc," Daniels wrote.

In a separate round of emails in April 2009, Daniels called for an audit and possible funding cut for a program run by Charles Little, executive director of the Indiana Urban Schools Association and a professor at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis. Little had been highly critical of Daniels' education overhaul in internal emails and he often critiqued the governor's performance at public meetings.

On Tuesday, Daniels stood by his demand that Zinn be excluded from Indiana classrooms but said his request was limited to K-12 schools, where the state has control of the curriculum.

"We must not falsely teach American history in our schools," he said in the email. "We have a law requiring state textbook oversight to guard against frauds like Zinn, and it was encouraging to find that no Hoosier school district had inflicted his book on its students."

Daniels made no mention of Little in the email, and it wasn't immediately clear if the audit went through. But he repeated his contention from the Zinn email exchanges that "there is need for a cleanup of what is credit-worthy in teaching of our professions."

"Particularly, I think we need to look at an upgrade of offerings to increase knowledge in the areas of math and science," he said.

Cary Nelson, an English professor at the University of Illinois who served six years as president of the American Association of University Professors, was taken aback by the emails.

"It is astonishing and shocking that such a person is now the head of a major research university, making decisions about the curriculum, that one painfully suspects embodies the same ignorance and racism these comments embody," Nelson said.

The AAUP often investigates cases of censorship from university officials, Nelson said, but it's unlikely the group would open an investigation of Daniels unless his tactics had continued through his time as Purdue's president.

Daniels has adopted a different public approach since taking over at Purdue. He hosted a lecture that included AAUP members on speech suppression at universities nationwide, and he sent an "open letter" to the Purdue community in January saying universities have squashed free speech rather than encourage it.

"The academies that, through the unique system of tenure, once enshrined freedom of opinion and inquiry now frequently are home to the narrowest sort of closed-mindedness and the worst repression of dissident ideas," he wrote.

J. Paul Robinson, former chairman of the Purdue University Senate, which represents faculty, reviewed Daniels' emails Tuesday and said he wasn't concerned that they would transfer to Purdue.

"The faculty still are the ones that establish the academic standards and the curricula — and we are not easily moved," Robinson said. "Mitch knows this, and I am pretty sure he respects it — even more now that he is here than when he was outside."

Purdue University Board of Trustees Chairman Keith Krach, who hired Daniels last year, did not return an email seeking comment. Trustees are scheduled to receive a six-month assessment from Daniels this week.
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Huh.
 
J

Jooney

Member
Wow. Fuck him for taking a shit on Howard Zinn. That book is instrumental in understanding how change has actually happened in America. Heaven forbid students actually have an understanding of the working people's struggles throughout American history.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
So someone raised an interesting question: Why hasn't the NRA come out and said the Trayvon Martin thing would've been preventable if only he carried a gun?
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Oblivion said:
So someone raised an interesting question: Why hasn't the NRA come out and said the Trayvon Martin thing would've been preventable if only he carried a gun?
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Because if they did people would march on and burn down their offices within the hour.

Also Travon was black.
 
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