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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1

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Do you think LBJ would've chased the compromise unicorns with the republicans if he was the POTUS today instead of Obama? I didn't think so. I know the political landscape has changed with the rise of conservative media and powerful interests, but the leader has to adapt to his landscape to rise above the clatter. Do you think Teddy Roosevelt would've chased compromise unicorns with Railway tycoons? Or FDR with the anti new-dealers; "I welcome their suggestions" instead of "I welcome their hatred"? Or any great president for that matter.

I don't think LBJ would be as desperate for deals as Obama has been, but ultimately I don't think he'd be getting much done due to the House..but he'd be knocking republicans around in an entertaining fashion (as would FDR). But I can guarantee he would have been more effective in 2009-2010 when dems had the senate and house.

Obama isn't an LBJ or FDR type, he's not going to boldly challenge republicans, pick real fights with banks, etc. He's a corporatist democrat on fiscal issues, a liberal on social issues, W Bush (well, worse) on civil liberties, and a mixture of Nixon and HW Bush on foreign policy.

And while I don't think he's good on playing Washington DC, you can overlook the fact that he's dealing with the most obstructionist congress EVER. Put Obama in 1992 or 1984 and he'd fit perfectly, in terms of being able to work with a competent opposition party.
 
No where have I given absolution to the state when it comes to this accident. Nor have I said that zoning is not a form of regulation. They do have a variety of powers at their disposal to police industry in their jurisdiction. But Texas is the largest state in the lower 48 land wise. There are thousands of little towns spread out everywhere. And as typical in the South, they diffuse power from a central government to ones that are more local. This is the same with education. Sure the state has a Department of Education. It sets the statewide standards and gives out the funding. It also certifies all the teachers. But ultimately it is the local school board that determines hiring and specific policy. This is the same for zoning. West was more responsible for the building of residential around the plant than the state was. And you haven't demonstrated to me otherwise.

if the state does not want schools near fertilizer plants, they can pass a law tomorrow to that effect. the fact that no such law was on the books is the fault of the state. the town has no power to do anything, not even exist, unless the state affirmatively grants that power. the fact that the town is responsible for the decision to locate schools/houses by the plant is irrelevant because they should not have been given that option in the first place if texas had some decent zoning and environmental laws at the state level.
 

pigeon

Banned
What the fuck? I thought the Obama admin would have wanted greater access to birth control. That's really disappointing.

Well, as noted, the FDA is also changing its tune at the same time. So either Obama is super worried about specifically 14-year-olds getting Plan B, which I guess is possible, or they're okay with letting people have birth control, they just don't admit that the courts have the power to MAKE them be okay with it.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
I don't think LBJ would be as desperate for deals as Obama has been, but ultimately I don't think he'd be getting much done due to the House..but he'd be knocking republicans around in an entertaining fashion (as would FDR). But I can guarantee he would have been more effective in 2009-2010 when dems had the senate and house.

Obama isn't an LBJ or FDR type, he's not going to boldly challenge republicans, pick real fights with banks, etc. He's a corporatist democrat on fiscal issues, a liberal on social issues, W Bush (well, worse) on civil liberties, and a mixture of Nixon and HW Bush on foreign policy.

And while I don't think he's good on playing Washington DC, you can overlook the fact that he's dealing with the most obstructionist congress EVER. Put Obama in 1992 or 1984 and he'd fit perfectly, in terms of being able to work with a competent opposition party.

The Treatment would not work in 2013. Johnson would intimidate republicans in private talks, they'd act like good little boys and girls in his presence, and then they'd simply go crawling back to Fox News to spout their talking points again.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...to-appeal-plan-b-ruling/?wprss=rss_ezra-klein

Basically, it's yet another example of Obama's DoJ arguing for sweeping protection of executive-branch decisions against judicial interference.

WTF? I don't know if I am more mad about them not backing-up having broader access to birth control or them pushing for more of that unitary executive power.


Obama is a potted plant to me this term. Pretty much useless. Nothing gets done because either Congress won't pass it, Senate filibusters it, or Obama is too timid to do it with his own executive power.

That said, a potted plant is MUCH better than Romney. A potted plant would have been much better than Bush . . . if Bush had done NOTHING, he would have been a much better president. (OK, he would have needed to strike back after 9/11 but even a potted plant could have handled that.)
 
It's interesting. NRA overestimated their threats. People weren't as bad as NRA hoped for. Senators sadly fell for it though. Lets hope this trend continues till next year.

Well much of the NRA's power is not about voters . . . who gives a fuck about the people? It is about money. It is about the threat of funding other candidates in primaries.
 
Political parties are always looking to "purify" the party and punish the "non true believers"
Er...mm...no. That hasn't been true since the '40s and it doesn't really apply to today.
Pigeon put it in better words than I could:

You're confusing establishmentarism with zealotry. Political parties are always saying they want to "purify the party," but what they generally mean is that they want to win elections and keep control of the money. That requires throwing people off the boat sometimes, but usually it's the fringe more than the moderates, because they're more likely to buck the party line. (And of course Boehner has worked hard to purge the fringe, because he is an establishmentarian.) It should be obvious that most of the time political parties aren't purging their most liked politicians and those who stand up for broadly popular policies, because political parties that consistently did that would cease to exist.

As for the rest of your post, it's simple false equivalency BS that I don't feel like responding to.
 

Jooney

Member
So is there a case to be made when Obama takes a stand and uses his bully pulpit to forcibly push his agenda? Watching the polls dip for the senators who voted against the background check bill, and then the opposite for the senators who voted for the bill, is at least some cold comfort given the bill's defeat.

--- // ---

The NRA Annual convention, the first since the Newtown massacre, begins today. Look at this roster of patriot speakers. I fully expect the convention to be completely tone deaf to the current environment.

(for those that don't want to click the link: Palin, Santorum, Bolton, Jindal, Cruz, Perry, Hutchinson)
 

This will only get worse as the developing world becomes more and more developed.

It seems the next big thing is medical engineering. However that seems to require even more of an education than computer science does. It seems that as time goes on the "big winner" fields get more and more difficult to get into.
 
You're confusing establishmentarism with zealotry. Political parties are always saying they want to "purify the party," but what they generally mean is that they want to win elections and keep control of the money. That requires throwing people off the boat sometimes, but usually it's the fringe more than the moderates, because they're more likely to buck the party line. (And of course Boehner has worked hard to purge the fringe, because he is an establishmentarian.) It should be obvious that most of the time political parties aren't purging their most liked politicians and those who stand up for broadly popular policies, because political parties that consistently did that would cease to exist.

Who they throw off the boat is very much dependent on the politician and the makeup of his or her district or state. The party establishment still has to listen and pander to the base, who are further right and left than the general population (although the establishment can influence the views of the base)

Tea Party is hardly something new anyway (that part of the base just decided to rename itself after being embarrassed by W), it's easy to call 2010 a "Tea Party takeover" but it's just a Republican takeover. There were "Tea Party" candidates with establishment money and support. There are "Tea Party" candidates who have been in Washington for over a decade (just look at the Tea Party Caucus). Sure, there were a few establishment candidates that lost to candidates that were further right (who themselves later went on to lose the General, when the establishment probably would have won or come close), but that only helps to show that primaries are partly responsible for increased polarization

Boehner has been kicking Tea Party candidates for bucking the party line, but he would do the same to any moderate who did so (unless that Republican came from a more moderate or liberal district - someone like Scott Brown [although a Senator] is a good example of this). It all depends on the district the politician comes from. The RNC has little reason to keep a moderate Republican who sides with Democrats on key issues if he or she is in a heavily conservative state or district where the RNC could get someone who would vote with the party 99% of the time instead. If that person was in Connecticut's 5th district? RNC will support them because that's the best they're going to do for that seat.

As for the rest of your post, it's simple false equivalency BS that I don't feel like responding to.

It's hardly false equivalency, and as long as you just don't want to address my points calling it "false equivalency" is a cop out and says to me you don't have anything to refute my points with

At least point out what exactly you think is a "false equivalency"
 
It's hardly false equivalency, and as long as you just don't want to address my points calling it "false equivalency" is a cop out and says to me you don't have anything to refute my points with

At least point out what exactly you think is a "false equivalency"

You're implying that modern-day polarization is due to factors that are affecting both parties equally, and so both parties are at fault. That's false.
 

pigeon

Banned
Who they throw off the boat is very much dependent on the politician and the makeup of his or her district or state. The party establishment still has to listen and pander to the base, who are further right and left than the general population (although the establishment can influence the views of the base)

If one party consistently pandered to the base as you describe, and one party consistently attempted to force moderates through the nomination process, the party that pushed moderates would keep winning elections and marginalize the other party until it changed and started controlling the nomination process more aggressively again. This isn't even theory, this is what's happening to the Republican Party right now! Sure, it's a little more complicated at the district level, but fundamentally the median voter theorem still holds sway. If a party's national positions don't align with the majority positions in swing districts, it's going to mitigate against its candidates winning those swing districts, because they have to juggle their allegiances. Therefore it's just good electoral sense to make sure your national positions are majority positions.
 
You're implying that modern-day polarization is due to factors that are affecting both parties equally, and so both parties are at fault. That's false.

The parties themselves aren't necessarily at fault, it's more of how the game is played (primary elections). There are less moderates in both parties (in Congress) today than there were in the past. There's a few reasons for this and I think the nature of primary elections is partly (not solely!) responsible.

I even mentioned that Democrats have had more success in electing moderates than Republicans in recent years, but that in itself is due to the nature of primary elections (where far-right politicians have beaten those more moderate). Republicans have had some success - Scott Brown was a moderate. I know that a lot of liberals think he's far-right, but he really wasn't. He wasn't a liberal, but he was moderate. Mark Kirk is another pretty good example of a moderate Republican. And go ask Joe Lieberman how it was to be primaried from the left (regardless of whatever opinion you hold of Lieberman).

Barbara Boxer's 1992 Senate election perhaps best demonstrates why the primary system is partly at fault for increased polarization (and more importantly, why it isn't a new thing). Boxer was (and is still today) one of the most liberal members of the House (and now Senate) and she probably would have been beaten (or at least closer) by a moderate Republican (Tom Campbell), but was saved when Bruce Herschensohn (a hard right winger) beat him out in the primary. And that was in 92. This has been going on a quite a while.

If one party consistently pandered to the base as you describe, and one party consistently attempted to force moderates through the nomination process, the party that pushed moderates would keep winning elections and marginalize the other party until it changed and started controlling the nomination process more aggressively again. This isn't even theory, this is what's happening to the Republican Party right now! Sure, it's a little more complicated at the district level, but fundamentally the median voter theorem still holds sway. If a party's national positions don't align with the majority positions in swing districts, it's going to mitigate against its candidates winning those swing districts, because they have to juggle their allegiances. Therefore it's just good electoral sense to make sure your national positions are majority positions.

The median voter theorem was much more pronounced in the middle of the twentieth century. I would argue that the strategy today (and for the past couple decades) has been very focused on the base, not the median voter. A candidate who moves to the middle might lose more votes than he or she gains. As I've mentioned before, politicians are worried about two constituencies - their primary election constituency (ie the base) and the general election constituency (which is not the entire electorate, but the number of votes they need to be elected whether 50%+1 or otherwise). Neither candidate can afford to lose the base. That's why they aren't moving to the center.

Now, the base turnout strategy on a national level - as you mentioned - is beginning to dwindle (at least for the Republican Party). But I find that it still holds true for most house elections and some Senate elections. National elections are very different than those two (and Senate elections different than House ones, although radicals still win nominations there).
 

pigeon

Banned
As I've mentioned before, politicians are worried about two constituencies - their primary election constituency (ie the base) and the general election constituency (which is not the entire electorate, but the number of votes they need to be elected whether 50%+1 or otherwise). Neither candidate can afford to lose the base. That's why they aren't moving to the center.

The Democratic candidates HAVE moved towards the center.
 
The Democratic candidates HAVE moved towards the center.

In right-leaning states, yes. And they win because their opponent is further to the right (ie the result of primaries) than the constituency needed to win. Some of these far-right candidates (notably Akin and Mourdock) probably had some effect on the national election, too. And some Republicans in left-leaning states (or even states like Alaska) have moved to the center, ex: Mark Kirk, Scott Brown, Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, etc

Murkowski actually presents a very good argument for this, too. Primaried from the right, defeated, and ran as a write-in and won the general. Why? Because she's a moderate. That didn't quite help her in the primary.

Some Democrats have not moved to the center, though - Tammy Baldwin comes to mind (who in my opinion is more progressive than even Feingold was). Tommy Thompson took some far-right positions on Medicare and taxes - and probably because of the hotly contested primary elections with other candidates (like Eric Hovde) that appealed to the base. Progressive Democrats win because their opponents are further to the right, but if the Wisconsin GOP had nominated a moderate Tammy Baldwin may very well not have been the first openly gay Senator.

Nope. It's the broken Republican Party.

Thanks for your contribution. Polarization is caused by only the Republican Party. Gotcha.
 

Gotchaye

Member
The median voter theorem was much more pronounced in the middle of the twentieth century. I would argue that the strategy today (and for the past couple decades) has been very focused on the base, not the median voter. A candidate who moves to the middle might lose more votes than he or she gains. As I've mentioned before, politicians are worried about two constituencies - their primary election constituency (ie the base) and the general election constituency (which is not the entire electorate, but the number of votes they need to be elected whether 50%+1 or otherwise). Neither candidate can afford to lose the base. That's why they aren't moving to the center.

Now, the base turnout strategy on a national level - as you mentioned - is beginning to dwindle (at least for the Republican Party). But I find that it still holds true for most house elections and some Senate elections. National elections are very different than those two (and Senate elections different than House ones, although radicals still win nominations there).

My take is that politicians and the media (especially on the right) have become much better at manipulating the median voter through gerrymandering and culture war rhetoric.

The problem with Barbara Boxer as an example is that she's clearly not so liberal that a moderate Republican challenger has been able to take her out. The sort of mechanism you're pointing at is only ever going to have a pretty small effect; at worst it means that a few incumbents will fail to reflect their districts as well as they might, an electoral disadvantage which is overcome by the advantages of incumbency. It's just obviously not the case that Republican extremism in Congress is driven by a lack of conservative Democrats challenging them in general elections. Those are the only kinds of Democrats which challenge them in general elections. And they win their districts by overwhelming margins; the median voters in these districts are pretty far right.

I think you're confusing the center of all voters nationwide with the center of the House or Senate with the center of particular House districts or states. Crazy Republicans actually are pretty centrist, in their districts. As of a few months ago, 39% of Texas voters wanted to impeach Obama. I think that if you want to argue that the primary process is why someone like Ted Cruz can be so far from the center, you first have to show that Ted Cruz actually is far from the center of his general election constituency. Given gerrymandering, the center of many House districts is still pretty far right. You're not going to fix that with California-style primaries.

Edit:
Some Democrats have not moved to the center, though - Tammy Baldwin comes to mind (who in my opinion is more progressive than even Feingold was). Tommy Thompson took some far-right positions on Medicare and taxes - and probably because of the hotly contested primary elections with other candidates (like Eric Hovde) that appealed to the base. Progressive Democrats win because their opponents are further to the right, but if the Wisconsin GOP had nominated a moderate Tammy Baldwin may very well not have been the first openly gay Senator.
This is again all self-correcting, though. If Tammy Baldwin is too liberal for Wisconsin by more than a small amount, she's going to lose next time around when Republicans nominate someone more strategically. If Barbara Boxer is way too liberal for California, why is she still in office? This just can't explain the degree to which Republicans in Congress are crazy.
 

Aggrotek

Member

pigeon

Banned
The problem with Barbara Boxer as an example is that she's clearly not so liberal that a moderate Republican challenger has been able to take her out.

Well, I would point out (and I know you're not arguing against this, exactly) that California just elected a Democratic supermajority to the state Congress. If Barbara Boxer weren't very liberal compared to the rest of the Senators, she wouldn't really be representative of the state. Frankly, most of the people I know think she's not liberal enough, but since I live in the Bay Area that's only to be expected.

California really illustrates my point, though. It's basically becoming impossible for the Republicans to nominate candidates that are competitive in California because they keep getting associated with the toxic national GOP positions. They used to hold a lot of House seats in the Golden State! But not many any more.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Did you guys see that Daily Beast has canned Howard Kurtz and CNN is "reviewing" his show as well? I don't even see the point of his "gotcha" in the Jason Collins story. What a dumbass..

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/howard-kurtz-daily-beast-90881.html?hp=t1

Shit, that's a hell of a thing to take a risk on. Even if his info was correct (it wasn't) he should have just let someone else write it, real lack of common sense there. It's not like that information would have changed anything, that is hardly the sort of thing to risk your career over. What a dumbass.
 
Did you guys see that Daily Beast has canned Howard Kurtz and CNN is "reviewing" his show as well? I don't even see the point of his "gotcha" in the Jason Collins story. What a dumbass..

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/howard-kurtz-daily-beast-90881.html?hp=t1

Is that really about his jason collins story or the fact he was promoting a rival site and had a history of making shit up in his pieces

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/02/howard-kurtz-fired-newsweek-daily-beast_n_3201593.html
 

Chichikov

Member
This is a bigger WTF to me.
That doesn't make any sense on any level, but I got to know, where the fuck they got the 3000 years figure?

I mean, the doctrine itself is under 2000 years old and I'm not familiar with any religious calendar that pegs the garden of Eden 3000 years ago.
 

FyreWulff

Member
This is a bigger WTF to me.

Did he ignore the factual evidence that human males are derived from females, and not the way the Bible states it as females being derived from males?

Females are 'perfect' humans as they have all information with their chromosomes. Males are missing information that the female genes have. This isn't even consistent across species, as birds are an example where the male genes have more information than females.

What the fuck? I thought the Obama admin would have wanted greater access to birth control. That's really disappointing.

siiiigh
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
It's also pretty lol how she invoked John Adams, considering he was the one who wrote, quite explicably that whole "The U.S. is in not in any way a Christian Nation" thing.
 
No wonder they invoke Chesterton, he basically calls for religion as a basis of democracy:

"There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man. That is a perfectly simple fact which the modern world will find out more and more to be a fact."

From Chesterton's What I Saw in America


Anyone who quotes Chesterton for anything other than his literature critiques is in my mind, an idiot.
 
I just hate when christians bring up empiricism since the biggest tenant of their faith (faith) is the biggest slap in the face to empiricism know to man.

BTW I really really love empiricism (logical empiricism) and think is vital to politics and knowledge. (Not as big of a fan of reason in the abstract)

No wonder they invoke Chesterton, he basically calls for religion as a basis of democracy:

"There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man. That is a perfectly simple fact which the modern world will find out more and more to be a fact."

From Chesterton's What I Saw in America


Anyone who quotes Chesterton for anything other than his literature critiques is in my mind, an idiot.

isn't he a big apologist for religion?
 
Some Democrats have not moved to the center, though - Tammy Baldwin comes to mind (who in my opinion is more progressive than even Feingold was). Tommy Thompson took some far-right positions on Medicare and taxes - and probably because of the hotly contested primary elections with other candidates (like Eric Hovde) that appealed to the base. Progressive Democrats win because their opponents are further to the right, but if the Wisconsin GOP had nominated a moderate Tammy Baldwin may very well not have been the first openly gay Senator.
The problem is Tommy Thompson was supposed to be the "moderate" Republican. It seems as though the Republican base is far more concerned about purity than electability than Democrats are. Look at 2010 in Delaware, Mike Castle, who was posting double digit leads in an otherwise heavily blue state, lost to Christine O'Donnell because she ran a few ads calling him a wiener. You generally don't see those kinds of shenanigans on the left. When moderate Democrats get primaried by liberal candidates, it's either a) in solid blue districts/states where solid progressives can win, or b) in solid red districts/states where it wouldn't matter and both the moderate and the progressive perform poorly.
 
I just hate when christians bring up empiricism since the biggest tenant of their faith (faith) is the biggest slap in the face to empiricism know to man.

BTW I really really love empiricism (logical empiricism) and think is vital to politics and knowledge. (Not as big of a fan of reason in the abstract)



isn't he a big apologist for religion?

The biggest. Dude gave birth to them in the modern era.
 
April jobs number at +165K; March revised upward to 138K from 88K.

Edit: Holy shit, with additional revisions, it turns out we added 332K jobs in February. That's the best month in years.
 

codhand

Member
wooo, thanks obama, literally
smugbiden.PNG



LOLGOP ‏@LOLGOP 2m

BREAKING: President Romney drops unemployment to a 4-year low as the Dow nears 15,000. Alert the crew at Mt. Rushmore.


332,000 jobs created in Feb, now that's undeniable

Carl Quintanilla ‏@carlquintanilla 4m

After accounting for census hiring, revised Feb #jobs number was best in almost 8 years. #NFP


congress is a logjam of epic proportions
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
April jobs number at +165K; March revised upward to 138K from 88K.

Edit: Holy shit, with additional revisions, it turns out we added 332K jobs in February. That's the best month in years.

Something something socialism something confidence fairy
 

Cat

Member
April jobs number at +165K; March revised upward to 138K from 88K.

Edit: Holy shit, with additional revisions, it turns out we added 332K jobs in February. That's the best month in years.

Well, that sounds like good news to me.
 
Upward revisions? Sequester must be kicking in. Cutting spending works!

Indeed. While the case for austerity in Europe is weak based on its dismal record there can be doubt that our retrograde austerity has done what even the stimulus couldn't. Mainly, add jobs at a rate over population growth. The February numbers are incredible, and enlightening. Maybe Rogoff & Reinhart were right, at least as applied to the US?
 
Okay, I have a wonk question. Whenever a decent jobs report comes out, some people ask if those are getting hired are part-time or full-time, and if the former is more, then immediately deem it bad. Now, I understand why it's better in the long run for more people to be full employees, but does it really matter as much during a recovery or when jobs are scarce? Isn't the most important thing for people to get money so they can put more money in the economy?
 
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