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PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Cruz has already spouted nonsense about waiting until the new Congress begins until the appoint a new AG. He would say that, though, the fucking troll.

Republicans will obviously complain but they always complain. No one that matters will care if they appoint someone in the lame duck session. Even if they actually follow politics that closely while still somehow being a swing vote, Republicans will do plenty of suspect political strong arming that will overwrite that lame duck appointment.

They can wait until after the elections, but Democrats would be absolute idiots if they get scared off of appointing a new attorney general before the new session.
 

Diablos

Member
2016 would be the perfect time to dust off Moderate Romney 1.0. The wealth issue would likely be neutralized against Clinton, who I just don't see as an effective champion of the middle class. She essentially went to Wall Street to apologize to bankers for democrats/Obama being mean to them.

He'd also get to tie Hillary to Obama's puzzling foreign policy while playing the "I told you so" card on Russia (right or wrong).
Yeah. Just because history suggests running for Pres three times is a bad idea does NOT mean Romney would make a mistake. With his money alone, not to mention big doners backing him and Dems appearing to be less enthused he could pull it off.
History also suggested that an black man running for President would be political suicide too. At some point you can and will buck the trend.

Hillary's actions as of late have been laughable, and shows that she is still inept at laying down the groundwork for launching a solid campaign and connecting with people.
I really don't think Hillary's campaign will come even remotely close to what Obama could do, and as Democrats for reasons that make no sense to me continue to lose trust with voters, that's a problem.

PPP has Udall down 2 in Colorado, but they've always had problems polling there. I feel like Udall has a slight advantage.
You feel like he has a slight advantage or you are having a hard time coming to terms with Dems being in legitimate danger of losing their Senate majority? I think it's all but over at this point.

Is it me or does AG Holder stepping down while Dems still hold the Senate kind of signal they know they are in real danger? Would be much harder to replace him with a GOP majority... timing seems suspect.
 

HylianTom

Banned
YHillary's actions as of late have been laughable, and shows that she is still inept at laying down the groundwork for launching a solid campaign and connecting with people.
I really don't think Hillary's campaign will come even remotely close to what Obama could do, and as Democrats for reasons that make no sense to me continue to lose trust with voters, that's a problem.

I'm not too worried about Hillary's lack of campaigning prowess, since she has a trump card that likely won't be outplayed this time around (since there's no Obama lurking in the opposition): Bill.

Bill gave Obama a huuuge boost with that convention speech. My suspicion is that he and Hillary are going to do everything but explicitly say, "if you vote for Hillary, you also get Bill. It's a two-for-one deal."

Bill's interview with Charlie Rose this week was a perfect example:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/polit...agenda-for-next-president-20140922-story.html
“Let’s assume you are advising a presidential candidate,” Rose said, to laughter.

"That's a heavy assumption," Clinton quipped back. “My advice has sometimes been welcome, sometimes not. Sometimes right and sometimes not."

Whomever the GOP nominates, he'll have essentially two opponents, one of whom instantly triggers dreamy memories of the 1990s. It almost seems like an unfair fight. Actually, I'm trying to think of a historical precedent for this campaign structure, and I can't really think of one. Should be fun to watch.
 
Potentially good news about the house.
We're not winning but the Republicans can't win when everything is going in their favor
It is now generally accepted that Republicans will keep the House in November and "win" the midterm by adding a handful of seats to their majority. If this counts as "winning," Nancy Pelosi must already be stocking up on the champagne.

The battle for the Senate has so dominated this midterm cycle that the House has become an afterthought. Republicans keep telling themselves that all that matters is getting Mitch McConnell back into the majority leader's seat, so a united GOP Congress can move to roll back the Obama agenda.

Senate control is the priority, but the House deserves far more attention than it's getting. John Boehner has his majority, but it is not often a governing (or governable) one. The speaker endlessly struggles to get to that magic number 218, often to his embarrassment and the detriment of good policy. (A favorite: the House's stubborn refusal to accept his 2012 tax-cliff deal, which set up President Obama for an even greater tax-hike victory). Every additional member Mr. Boehner adds to his majority means additional flexibility in the coming Obama fights. It's also a cushion against future losses.

And this is the year to do it. The party in the spring announced it was driving for 245 seats, up from 233, and described this as "ambitious." Really? Republicans were obviously never going to replicate anywhere near their 63-seat pickup of 2010. Then again, President Obama's approval rating is subterranean, even in solidly blue districts, and voters are fed up with ObamaCare, the economy, foreign policy, executive overreach and pretty much everything else Democrats are doing.

Adding a dozen House seats in this environment might be considered a gimme. Yet the latest betting is that Republicans will get only three to eight seats. Meaning, a blowout night for the GOP still lands it with a smaller majority than it had in 2010.

Party officials offer reasons for the puny numbers. They note that the huge GOP victory in 2010, and the redistricting that followed, gave the party ownership over pretty much every conservative seat in Congress. The Democratic Blue Dogs are all but extinct. Georgia's John Barrow is, literally, the last, white elected House Democrat in the Deep South, and a few other last holdouts in conservative seats—Utah's Joe Matheson and North Carolina's Mike McIntyre —are retiring. The easy "gets" have been got, which means the GOP must battle for seats in more liberal districts, in more liberal states—California, New York, Illinois.

The House Republican team, like its counterpart in the Senate, is also getting beaten on fundraising. The left's dollar advantage has allowed Democrats to throw money at races the party knows it can't win—simply to force Republicans to spend their more precious dollars defending candidates. And it has allowed Democrats to outspend Republicans in competitive races.

There is truth in these points, though a bigger truth is that Republicans failed this summer to articulate an agenda that would make them more competitive in tougher districts. The president has painted Republicans as nothing more than obstructionists, and that image has stuck. It makes no difference that the House has passed scores of bills that are languishing in the Senate. The voting public doesn't know about them, or by extension what the House Republicans would accomplish if granted a larger majority.

Mr. Boehner made his "Five Points for Resetting America's Economic Foundation" so broad—"address the debt," "strengthen education"—as to be meaningless. What Democrat isn't also running on strengthening education?

Nancy Pelosi won the House in 2006 on a small yet concrete set of promises—raising the minimum wage, cheaper student loans, etc. House Republicans aren't exactly lacking in topics for which they could have laid out an agenda of reasonable policy changes—on ObamaCare, energy, regulations. Instead the party rolled out its candidates with nada, and has been left to claim it is good that their people are running on "local" issues. It is—for Democrats.

Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are thrilled for their incumbents to talk local, since it allows them to avoid talking about their Washington failures. It also allows Democrats to make campaigns about personality, which always favor the incumbent, and which has led to smear attacks that have been deadly for many Republican challengers.

The result is at least a dozen races—potentially more—in which Republican incumbents or challengers should be winning or at least competitive, but who are instead struggling or have been written off. While many of these seats are in "tough" states, many are in districts that Republicans have won in the past—and ought to be winnable in this climate.

They are also in districts that Republicans will need to convert to their side, if they are ever to increase their majority. The pity is that doesn't look to be happening in a midterm that is ripe for the winning
.

I did have a quibble with this

The Democratic Blue Dogs are all but extinct. Georgia's John Barrow is, literally, the last, white elected House Democrat in the Deep South, and a few other last holdouts in conservative seats—Utah's Joe Matheson and North Carolina's Mike McIntyre —are retiring.

Does Alan Grayson not count? Orlando isn't South Florida. But I don't know what the define as the 'deep south'. Grayson is in Dixie though and is a white, jewish anti-war candidate.
 
Five Thirty Eight - Migration Isn't Turning Red States Blue


By HARRY ENTEN and NATE SILVER

Last week, The New York Times’s Robert Gebeloff and David Leonhardt published an article, “The Growing Blue-State Diaspora,” which made the case that transplants from blue states are making red states purple. “This pattern has played an important role in helping the Democratic Party win the last two presidential elections and four of the last six,” they wrote.

It’s a fascinating hypothesis, but it’s overstated, in our view. The first problem is that the predominant political trend of the past two decades has not been consistently better performance by Democrats, but instead greater polarization across partisan and geographic lines. Remember, the GOP controls the House of Representatives, a plurality of state legislatures and a majority of governor’s mansions, and Republicans are slight favorites to take the Senate in November. Democrats have done well in recent presidential elections, but if Republicans take the Senate and hold the House, then by 2016 the GOP will have had control of the Senate for 12.5 of the past 24 years and the House for 18 of 24.

We’re not saying we’d rather have had Republicans’ hand to play. But the balance of power in the country has been reasonably equivocal, as it tends to be over the long run.

By contrast, the trend toward greater polarization has been clear and sweeping. It’s been clear in races for the House; there are far fewer swing districts than there once were, even after accounting for the effects of gerrymandering. It’s been clear in gubernatorial races, which now bear a much stronger correlation to presidential elections and other races for federal office. And it’s been clear in races for the presidency. In 1992, when Democrat Bill Clinton beat Republican George H.W. Bush, there were no states — none — where either candidate won by 20 or more percentage points. In 2012, there were 18 of them, 11 of which were won by Republican Mitt Romney. A few states (such as West Virginia and Colorado) have switched party loyalties, but for the most part, red states have gotten redder and blue states have gotten bluer; theories about the role played by migration need to reconcile with this evidence.

But this presents a challenge. It might seem to follow that if there’s more mixing of Americans across state lines, then everything might converge to a shade of political purple. Why have we seen the opposite pattern instead?

One part of the answer is straightforward: Interstate migration is not increasing. Instead, it has been on a downward trend since the 1980s; fewer Americans (as a share of the population) are relocating across state lines than a couple of decades ago.

The other part is a little more complicated. People who leave an area don’t necessarily resemble the ones who stay. Instead, there’s evidence that migrants’ political beliefs mirror those of voters in their new destination. Many people moving from a liberal state to a conservative state may be conservative, or may at least end up that way before long. People moving from a conservative state to a liberal state may be liberal.

Of course, there are certain states that attract certain types of voters when their job opportunities change — such as in North Carolina’s research triangle, for instance. But as the Times noted, a number of red states (such as Idaho and South Carolina) are home to many blue state transplants yet continue to vote reliably Republican. There’s little sign that’s changing.

If anything, movers generally have more extreme political views than natives: Those people moving to the West Coast or New England, for example, are more liberal than people who grew up there. Thus, the process of intra-country migration could be contributing to political polarization rather than making states more purple.

We can get a sense for this from the General Social Survey, a national biannual poll conducted by the University of Chicago. The GSS asks respondents to rate themselves as liberal or conservative. The GSS also asks which census division respondents live in, and which they lived in when they were 16 years old.


____

No wonder you guys never get the liberal change you want!

So I should support a corrupt right winger in order for left wing change to come? I doubt it.
 

Vahagn

Member
So I should support a corrupt right winger in order for left wing change to come? I doubt it.

I think he was saying you should always vote liberal. Any time you're motivated to vote independent or republican or write in a name, you're actively fighting against liberal change.

That's why conservatives will stick with Walker despite the budget shortfall. They legitimately think that liberals winning means the end of freedom. It's up to democrats to convince the public that 50 years of republican presidents have blown up the debt and that running on fiscal responsibility is tantamount to lying. Bold faced lying. And here is Scott Walker to prove our point.

Until Dems can change the public's perception on that issue, conservatives will keep doing wHat they're doing
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
The differences between them have been overstated, IMHO. Both have the Senate race in essentially toss-up territory most of the time.

I know, but people have been using Nate Silver as proof that Republicans will demolish the Democrats. Nate has also been doing his part to try to discredit Sam Wang. The truth is, they have both been showing pretty much toss ups this whole time, with a little lean in one direction or another
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Are you sure? Maybe I am remembering the charts wrong. Either way, just because Sam Wang's model is now closer in line with Nate's doesn't mean Nate's was correct the entire time. It certainly doesn't vindicate his attempts at discrediting Sam Wang either.

For the record, Sam Wang's model isn't more in line with Nate's yet. He still has democrats at 70% chance of winning. Current conditions are all that's changing, and that just changes with day to day polls.
 
For the record, Sam Wang's model isn't more in line with Nate's yet. He still has democrats at 70% chance of winning. Current conditions are all that's changing, and that just changes with day to day polls.

EV_histogram_today.jpg
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
^
That's current conditions.

Look at the top of the website:
Election Day Probability of 50 or more Democratic+Independent seats: 70%

That graph is if the election was held today, but that's not what his prediction is. See this.
 
Guessing Sam doesn't buy the hype in Colorado. He said the recent polls there and Alaska (which is looking worse for the Dems) are what drove the snapshot to the Rs.

Breaking 50-50, counting Orman as a Dem, seems to be the most likely scenario IMO.

There have been a few good polls for House Dems. Sean Patrick Maloney and Seth Moulton leading in NY-18 and MA-6 respectively, and George Sinner up by 2 in ND-AL which would be a pickup.
 
Guessing Sam doesn't buy the hype in Colorado. He said the recent polls there and Alaska (which is looking worse for the Dems) are what drove the snapshot to the Rs.

There is no "hype" to buy. The model was made before any polls are entered. The data is entered and the polls work on the formulas. Wang doesn't readjust because he doesn't buy the polls.


FWIW, Starting in October, the more recent polls will have more weight so if by this time next week the polls don't start shifting back for the Dems or anything, the needle will keep moving to the R for the election prediction.

And even if that does happen, it doesn't mean Silver is right or wrong (regardless, they both have been converging to one another of late). You'd have to distinguish whether the fundamentals were right or the candidates caused a recent change (ie the debate) and good luck with that.
 

East Lake

Member
Going to be a good story about the NY Fed on this american life today.

In early 2012, Segarra was assigned to regulate Goldman Sachs, and so was installed inside Goldman. (The people who regulate banks for the Fed are physically stationed inside the banks.)

The job right from the start seems to have been different from what she had imagined: In meetings, Fed employees would defer to the Goldman people; if one of the Goldman people said something revealing or even alarming, the other Fed employees in the meeting would either ignore or downplay it. For instance, in one meeting a Goldman employee expressed the view that "once clients are wealthy enough certain consumer laws don't apply to them." After that meeting, Segarra turned to a fellow Fed regulator and said how surprised she was by that statement -- to which the regulator replied, "You didn't hear that."

This sort of thing occurred often enough -- Fed regulators denying what had been said in meetings, Fed managers asking her to alter minutes of meetings after the fact -- that Segarra decided she needed to record what actually had been said. So she went to the Spy Store and bought a tiny tape recorder, then began to record her meetings at Goldman Sachs, until she was fired.

...

I don't want to spoil the revelations of "This American Life": It's far better to hear the actual sounds on the radio, as so much of the meaning of the piece is in the tones of the voices -- and, especially, in the breathtaking wussiness of the people at the Fed charged with regulating Goldman Sachs. But once you have listened to it -- as when you were faced with the newly unignorable truth of what actually happened to that NFL running back's fiancee in that elevator -- consider the following:

1. You sort of knew that the regulators were more or less controlled by the banks. Now you know.

2. The only reason you know is that one woman, Carmen Segarra, has been brave enough to fight the system. She has paid a great price to inform us all of the obvious. She has lost her job, undermined her career, and will no doubt also endure a lifetime of lawsuits and slander.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-26/the-secret-goldman-sachs-tapes

http://www.propublica.org/article/carmen-segarras-secret-recordings-from-inside-new-york-fed
 
Doesn't he update daily though or am I mistaken?

The model updates every day and he enters new information every time it comes is.

The model analyzes the data. The model was set up a long time ago. He doesn't discount a specific poll because he's convinced Udall will win. The model just is giving weight to past polls a lot because the model doesn't believe that anything but noise is going on until more polls come in.
 
The thing I'm most bummed about is that Ron/Rand/benjy was right all along.

(About the Fed. Not about racism/racism/coercive violence in a world of scarcity.)

Right about what? Anything that liberals weren't?

Is this reason to get rid of the fed or something? It sounds like corruption and a call for reform for a real independent central bank
 
Does Alan Grayson not count? Orlando isn't South Florida. But I don't know what the define as the 'deep south'. Grayson is in Dixie though and is a white, jewish anti-war candidate.

No, Orlando isn't part of the 'deep south.' The Deep South in Florida ends at about Ocala. Orlando is a bunch of transplants and transients. Not saying there aren't rednecks or anything, but Orlando is far different from North Florida.
 
The model updates every day and he enters new information every time it comes is.

The model analyzes the data. The model was set up a long time ago. He doesn't discount a specific poll because he's convinced Udall will win. The model just is giving weight to past polls a lot because the model doesn't believe that anything but noise is going on until more polls come in.
Right. I guess I should have said "Sam's model doesn't believe the hype." That is to say the newer polls with Udall losing aren't enough to bring him down in the long-term projection. Whereas Nate's model gives much more weight to newer polls.
 
No, Orlando isn't part of the 'deep south.' The Deep South in Florida ends at about Ocala. Orlando is a bunch of transplants and transients. Not saying there aren't rednecks or anything, but Orlando is far different from North Florida.

I know what Orlando is like. But its part of "the south" what other category is it in? Its not South Florida. Its historically more southern than northern.

The reasons you name could start to exclude Atlanta and Charlotte or Raleigh from the South only with their history keeping them there but Orlando doesn't really have any 'history' beyond the 50s and that before it most certainly was as southern as other parts of the south, they almost killed a future supreme court justice

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...ood-marshall-black-and-white-black-floridians

Marshall also nearly felt the wrath of white Central Floridians in 1951, when he was the target of an unsuccessful plan by the Apopka Ku Klux Klan to kidnap and beat him.

In 1944, the United States Supreme Court ruled that blacks could not be prohibited from voting in the Democratic primary. Despite the court's ruling, voting officials in the South delayed allowing blacks to register as Democrats. At the time, nearly all office holders were Democrats and the Democratic primary was the only election that mattered.

In 1945 the city of Orlando ignored the Supreme Court ruling and refused to let blacks register. C.T. Williams, a local black leader, wrote Marshall in 1945 asking for help in getting blacks registered.

As late as 1949 blacks in Orlando were still denied the right to vote in the Democratic primary. John Ellis, Orlando NAACP president, wrote to Marshall again asking for help. After Marshall threatened to sue, the city began to allow blacks to register as Democrats.

Marshall also was involved in what became known as the Groveland case. In 1949, a Lake County woman claimed she had been raped by four black men. One suspect was killed by a posse and three others were arrested.

The case drew national attention and Marshall became involved in the legal team for the appeal of two defendants sentenced to die. At first a Florida judge refused to allow him to represent the two, but that ruling was later overturned.

Marshall was supposed to be in Lake County in August 1951 for a new trial for one of the defendants, but instead sent an assistant. According to FBI documents, members of the Apopka Ku Klux Klan had decided to kidnap Marshall as he traveled from the courtroom to the Orlando airport.

The Klansmen chased the car they believed was carrying Marshall from the Lake County line through Apopka and into Orlando, where they lost it in traffic. The car contained two attorneys and two journalists.

Its seems because it doesn't fit the voting pattern (and already has changed like the way North Carolina and Georgia) they want to establish its excluded. Its different and not the same as the others but I really don't know if I'd exclude it from the South. Its the southern end of "dixie"
 

Tamanon

Banned
Deep South doesn't mean the southernmost part of the South, it refers to the most traditional/backwards. Your backwoods Georgias, South Carolinas, Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi. The places you don't want your car to break down if you can help it.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Should have quoted this from the Bloomberg piece:
How Segarra got herself fired by the Fed is interesting. In 2012, Goldman was rebuked by a Delaware judge for its behavior during a corporate acquisition. Goldman had advised one energy company, El Paso Corp., as it sold itself to another energy company, Kinder Morgan, in which Goldman actually owned a $4 billion stake, and a Goldman banker had a big personal investment. The incident forced the Fed to ask Goldman to see its conflict of interest policy. It turned out that Goldman had no conflict of interest policy -- but when Segarra insisted on saying as much in her report, her bosses tried to get her to change her report. Under pressure, she finally agreed to change the language in her report, but she couldn't resist telling her boss that she wouldn't be changing her mind. Shortly after that encounter, she was fired.
lol
 
I know what Orlando is like. But its part of "the south" what other category is it in? Its not South Florida. Its historically more southern than northern.

The reasons you name could start to exclude Atlanta and Charlotte or Raleigh from the South only with their history keeping them there but Orlando doesn't really have any 'history' beyond the 50s and that before it most certainly was as southern as other parts of the south, they almost killed a future supreme court justice

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...ood-marshall-black-and-white-black-floridians

That also happened when all of Orange County had 114,000 people, as compared to 1.2 million now. It is a whole different place.

Orlando is Disney World. Like Las Vegas, it's a city built on the service industry. And combined with the Space Coast being built on NASA and Tampa being a home for senior citizens, it's not a "Deep South" district in any way, shape, or form, no more than Miami is a Deep South District.

In all reality, the I-4 Corridor and Miami should be "Florida", and the parts north of it should be given over to Georgia. :)
 
What are your thoughts on the conflict against ISIS? Talking about the midterms is fun, but I want communal feedback because it’s such a difficult issue for me to settle with. I read Andrew Sullivan’s blog and his opposition to the military campaign is reaching hysterical levels, especially the comparisons to the Iraq War and Obama to Bush (which he sometimes does when he brings up his civil liberties record, but until now, he greatly admired the president). Personally, I want to do something against ISIS. They seem extremely powerful and need to be fought against – the question is who should fight them and how? I’m glad the US has formed a coalition involving many Middle Eastern countries (I know the problems that arise with the partnerships with Saudi Arabia and Iran, but at least they hate ISIS as much as we do) because it means we have a common goal, which I haven’t heard of often until recently.

So what am I against and what am I uncertain on? First, the legal basis using the 2001 AUMF is indeed dubious, but there has to be another legal basis Obama can use. The UN has several charters declaring the importance of preserving human rights and preventing genocide whenever possible. That’s international law, though, so maybe that’s the reason why the AUMF is his first choice. Second, I agree with the critics that he should get Congressional approval for the general campaign, but he did do it for giving arms to moderate Syrians. Now, lots of military actions, including some good ones, never had Congressional approval, so I think it’s more of a moral obligation than a necessary one. If you want legal checks against reckless military engagements, the international community seems to do a fair job of that, and more or less the mainstream Western powers have already given him approval to do something against ISIS – which is different from the Iraq War. Third, you’ve probably noticed my language for this intervention. I don’t think it constitutes a war, but it’s certainly not your average short campaign either – maybe it’s a new third category.

What bugs me the most about the doves, mostly from the right like Sullivan, Larison, et al, who have demolished their previously moderate-to-cautious relationship with Obama is the Iraq War comparisons. This has as much to do with that as a Venn diagram would illustrate, they’re skin-deep. Sullivan especially is so scarred by his previous support for the IW he doesn’t want anything to do in the Middle East whatsoever. He’s never offered an alternative for handling ISIS so his most likely position is complete isolationism. I don’t think there is anyone in any of the major political parties who are as anti-intervention as he is, so I think he now fits the best in the ideology of the Green Party. If he thinks Obama is close to finishing his transformation from pragmatic moderate to idealist neocon, wait until we find out what Clinton has in store for the Middle East.

So I’m somewhat supportive of the “war” against ISIS and I don’t understand why the doves have reacted in such an extreme fashion. Hell, I considered myself a dove not too long ago, but then I took a foreign policy class and began to understand the nuances that make foreign policy successful. Multilateralism and long-term goals and expectations can make the Middle East slightly less shitty and, generally, I think Obama is doing the right thing. Now of course there are legitimate criticisms against the president and we can debate the details of his military campaign, but once you compare it to the Iraq War and Bush’s nation-building and clueslessness to the Middle East, I can’t take the critics seriously anymore.

My main question for you is, is it fair to compare this to the Iraq War? And is Obama genuinely Bush-like on foreign policy?
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
The thing I'm most bummed about is that Ron/Rand/benjy was right all along.

(About the Fed. Not about racism/racism/coercive violence in a world of scarcity.)
Sometimes they are right about the problem, but they are always wrong about the solution. I and others here have been complaining about the buddy buddy nature of the government and the banks a lot, but I believe our solution is to create walls between the two, not to burn the whole thing down.

I mean, unless this thing would have been found by those audits the Pauls kept pushing, but that seems unlikely.

In any case I'm looking forward to it.
 

Vahagn

Member
What are your thoughts on the conflict against ISIS? Talking about the midterms is fun, but I want communal feedback because it’s such a difficult issue for me to settle with. I read Andrew Sullivan’s blog and his opposition to the military campaign is reaching hysterical levels, especially the comparisons to the Iraq War and Obama to Bush (which he sometimes does when he brings up his civil liberties record, but until now, he greatly admired the president). Personally, I want to do something against ISIS. They seem extremely powerful and need to be fought against – the question is who should fight them and how? I’m glad the US has formed a coalition involving many Middle Eastern countries (I know the problems that arise with the partnerships with Saudi Arabia and Iran, but at least they hate ISIS as much as we do) because it means we have a common goal, which I haven’t heard of often until recently.

So what am I against and what am I uncertain on? First, the legal basis using the 2001 AUMF is indeed dubious, but there has to be another legal basis Obama can use. The UN has several charters declaring the importance of preserving human rights and preventing genocide whenever possible. That’s international law, though, so maybe that’s the reason why the AUMF is his first choice. Second, I agree with the critics that he should get Congressional approval for the general campaign, but he did do it for giving arms to moderate Syrians. Now, lots of military actions, including some good ones, never had Congressional approval, so I think it’s more of a moral obligation than a necessary one. If you want legal checks against reckless military engagements, the international community seems to do a fair job of that, and more or less the mainstream Western powers have already given him approval to do something against ISIS – which is different from the Iraq War. Third, you’ve probably noticed my language for this intervention. I don’t think it constitutes a war, but it’s certainly not your average short campaign either – maybe it’s a new third category.

What bugs me the most about the doves, mostly from the right like Sullivan, Larison, et al, who have demolished their previously moderate-to-cautious relationship with Obama is the Iraq War comparisons. This has as much to do with that as a Venn diagram would illustrate, they’re skin-deep. Sullivan especially is so scarred by his previous support for the IW he doesn’t want anything to do in the Middle East whatsoever. He’s never offered an alternative for handling ISIS so his most likely position is complete isolationism. I don’t think there is anyone in any of the major political parties who are as anti-intervention as he is, so I think he now fits the best in the ideology of the Green Party. If he thinks Obama is close to finishing his transformation from pragmatic moderate to idealist neocon, wait until we find out what Clinton has in store for the Middle East.

So I’m somewhat supportive of the “war” against ISIS and I don’t understand why the doves have reacted in such an extreme fashion. Hell, I considered myself a dove not too long ago, but then I took a foreign policy class and began to understand the nuances that make foreign policy successful. Multilateralism and long-term goals and expectations can make the Middle East slightly less shitty and, generally, I think Obama is doing the right thing. Now of course there are legitimate criticisms against the president and we can debate the details of his military campaign, but once you compare it to the Iraq War and Bush’s nation-building and clueslessness to the Middle East, I can’t take the critics seriously anymore.

My main question for you is, is it fair to compare this to the Iraq War? And is Obama genuinely Bush-like on foreign policy?


How is invading a country with ultimately near 200,000 troops the same as dropping Bombs from the sky?

How is attacking a recognized nation state and its government's military in an attempt to change regime, the same as attacking terrorist groups within two countries where the government and the leaders have asked for our help as both Assad and the Iraqi leaders have?

How is building a coalition and attacking based on verifiable threats (like them releasing videos that they intend to attack us) the same as claiming there are weapons of mass destruction and Saadam was linked to 9/11 when he vehemently rejected both charges?

Cognitive Dissonance is the hallmark of the right's usual Obama Criticisms, this is just another example.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Sometimes they are right about the problem, but they are always wrong about the solution. I and others here have been complaining about the buddy buddy nature of the government and the banks a lot, but I believe our solution is to create walls between the two, not to burn the whole thing down.
That's the thing, your "solution" will result in the exact opposite of its intentions, just like every single time before. Especially with a central bank. You can't have one without it being captured.

You can write regulations until your nose bleeds, kill off smaller banks who can't comply as the bigger banks gobble up their assets, while personnel shift between the banks, the Fed and the Treasury to ensure that those regulations don't apply to the biggest banks. All while the central bank destroys wealth of the lower classes to keep the bubble inflated. And the next generation will come along knowing they'll avoid your mistakes because this time they're going to set up walls of regulations.
 
This is always so cute.

Your entire philosophy negates human history (and empirical reality), and perpetually can say "told you so" because any human interaction and attempt at organization is wrong, unless its the fanciful world of everyone consenting continually (though none of them besides the communist types transfer this to property).

Libertarianism is the Statler and Waldorf of politics. Heckling about everything providing nothing of value and constantly harping about imagined and impossible reality (like religion).
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
What are your thoughts on the conflict against ISIS?

You pretty much have the exact same feelings I have about it.

My main question for you is, is it fair to compare this to the Iraq War? And is Obama genuinely Bush-like on foreign policy?

It's fair to worry about it escalating into something we don't want like the Iraq War did. And there's potential for just making ISIS stronger, by giving them a common enemy to recruit against, just like in the Iraq War, and their's worries that arming others who share our common enemy right now will cause more harm in the future, like about every action we've done in the middle east.

But this does seem to be a very different scenario in that we're supporting established governments against a new coalition that very few people seem to like. That might be enough to say it will result in more good than bad in the end. I just wish the president got approval from congress before doing it.
 
That's the thing, your "solution" will result in the exact opposite of its intentions, just like every single time before. Especially with a central bank. You can't have one without it being captured.

You can write regulations until your nose bleeds, kill off smaller banks who can't comply as the bigger banks gobble up their assets, while personnel shift between the banks, the Fed and the Treasury to ensure that those regulations don't apply to the biggest banks. All while the central bank destroys wealth of the lower classes to keep the bubble inflated.

We had this debate 3 times in US history, you're side has lost. And you saying the "central bank destroys the wealth of the lower classes" is the absurd cherry on the top. I know what you mean, so you don't have to explain it.
 
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