Support NeoGAF

[Aaron Strife]

How did Quist become the candidate anyway? Was he recruited? Did he win a primary?

Candidates were chosen at convention, guessing he was just the best at schmoozing his way in.

Though iirc the other Democrats weren't particularly notable.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

How did Quist become the candidate anyway? Was he recruited? Did he win a primary?

won a majority of delegates at the state convention, had a lot of pull from former Governor Schweitzer and had worked for the Montana Arts Council during his tenure. He also had name recognition other candidates wouldn't because of his music, which probably helped him get the nod. I don't think there was a primary available to non-party officials though.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

How did Quist become the candidate anyway? Was he recruited? Did he win a primary?

Primary, against six(?) other candidates, but from convention attendees only. Won in the fourth round but was the clear leader the whole way.

Also, I didn't think he was a bad candidate, for Montana, at least.

 

[Drkirby]

The Walking Donald

https://twitter.com/pacelattin/status/867949635028959232

That looks pretty bad, though I would like to see it in a bit more context, like the 30 seconds leading up to him getting up.

 

[VendettaRed07]

I I want a party that expands the social safety net, expands social democracy. Is that even possible past a certain point when the left-wing party of the country is won through wealthy, affluent white suburbs?

I'm going to say it isn't and it's why the "give up on rural areas entirely", rhetoric is just wrong in my opinion.

 

[Crocodile]

Candidates were chosen at convention, guessing he was just the best at schmoozing his way in.

Though iirc the other Democrats weren't particularly notable.

won a majority of delegates at the state convention, had a lot of pull from former Governor Schweitzer and had worked for the Montana Arts Council during his tenure. He also had name recognition other candidates wouldn't because of his music, which probably helped him get the nod. I don't think there was a primary available to non-party officials though.

Primary, against six(?) other candidates, but from convention attendees only. Won in the fourth round but was the clear leader the whole way.

Also, I didn't think he was a bad candidate, for Montana, at least.

I see. I didn't think he was awful (though I obviously say this from the outside not as a Montana resident) but for 2018 we probably need someone better. But is there someone better in Montana right now who is willing to run/wants to run?

 

[CoolOff]

That looks pretty bad, though I would like to see it in a bit more context, like the 30 seconds leading up to him getting up.

Full vid in this link supposedly, but I can't get it to play:

https://ruptly.tv/vod/20170522-055

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Then people should not be writing this off as "oh well it was too red to win".

It can be won. We screwed up the chances with a poor candidate. If Tester can win there we need to get those same voters to flip the house seat in 2018 too

Tester is not going to run on single payer. In Senate incumbency helps.

Tester, Bullock are the kind of candidates you need for Montana. Quist was a flawed candidate with his own issues.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Probably exhausted. First time since January 20 he's worked more than four days in a row.

Seriously though I've put less than zero weight to the dementia/senility rumors (I always assume he's just an ass), but damn if that footage isn't concerning. Dude just disappears behind his eyes.

How slowly does dementia set in? It seems like there's been a handful of these incidents, but they're infrequent enough that you could probably wave them away as momentary distraction or daydreaming.

 

[Pixieking]

Full vid in this link supposedly, but I can't get it to play:

https://ruptly.tv/vod/20170522-055

It doesn't have anything from before the clip on Twitter, just more afterwards.

 

[broz0rs]

Der Spiegel (Germany's largest news magazine) obliterates Trump in their editorial. It's pretty much what we all think about him.

A Danger to the World. It's Time to Get Rid of Donald Trump

Donald Trump is not fit to be president of the United States. He does not possess the requisite intellect and does not understand the significance of the office he holds nor the tasks associated with it. He doesn't read. He doesn't bother to peruse important files and intelligence reports and knows little about the issues that he has identified as his priorities. His decisions are capricious and they are delivered in the form of tyrannical decrees.

He is a man free of morals. As has been demonstrated hundreds of times, he is a liar, a racist and a cheat. I feel ashamed to use these words, as sharp and loud as they are. But if they apply to anyone, they apply to Trump. And one of the media's tasks is to continue telling things as they are: Trump has to be removed from the White House. Quickly. He is a danger to the world.

 

[kirblar]

I do think you're being cute and you know exactly what you mean when you call someone radical versus an idea as "radical" and I think it's a big fuck you to people who share a different opinion than you on the matter. If that's not the case, fine. But you didn't call the idea "radical". You said "we're not radicals". That's a person, not an idea. It's ugly.

Is Jon Ossoff for a public option? Is Jon Ossoff for a buy-in for Medicare? Is he for lowering the Medicare age? Is he for Medicare for All? What's the line? How far is a party of Ossoffs willing to go? Again -- I WANT HIM IN CONGRESS. Desperately. But I also want single payer. I also DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER. I am stating fears, not facts of what I think a party of affluent centrists will do. But I am also scared of a party that's supposedly for the working person and the middle class to be built through districts that are affluent, even though I will support that type of party of its the only option. But you're handwaving this away, saying it'll be fine, and that it doesn't matter. It sort of does, though. I want a party that expands the social safety net, expands social democracy. Is that even possible past a certain point when the left-wing party of the country is won through wealthy, affluent white suburbs? I don't know. But it's scary.

We're not going to agree. I just don't think you're even making an effort to understand my point, and that's what disappointing and frustrating me. Instead, you're calling people "radicals". You might not have meant it that way, but even unintentionally implying sit-down-and-shut-up-you-crazy-person isn't great.

I think I've rewritten this like 6 times at this point. Maybe I just need to ask the question- what specifically are you afraid of specifically w/ the affluent districts?

I'm not afraid of them in large part because the white nationalization wave among rural areas is radically reshaping the map and flipping these people off the GOP at the same time the rural areas are flipping onto it. When it comes to economics, there's far more opportunity for flexibility in solutions there than on issues of "are gay people people?"

 

[kirblar]

An ideology is just a cohesive set of moral, political, and economic beliefs. If you didn't have an ideology, you wouldn't have any way of determining whether something was good or bad (or your determination would be inconsistent). The fact of the matter is that you think these things would have 'bad' outweighing 'good' because of your ideology. It's also a relatively rigid ideology because across every PoliGAF ever, I don't think I've ever seen you concede a point. So "I'm not opposing these things out of some rigid ideology" is a lie. And I think the worst part is that it's a lie you've taught yourself to believe.

When an accountant tells you that your business is going to bankrupt if you acquire the company you're interested in, is that a "ideological" view? No, it's not. It's their cold rational analysis of the situation.

Economics should not be a belief system. If it is one for you, you are doing it completely wrong. It's a vast library of information, tools, and it allows you to take our vast human history and get a pretty good idea of what will happen if we do certain things. (The CBO, for instance? They were pretty dead on about the effects of Obamacare on insurance rates!) This is how we know basic things like "don't do hyperinflation!" Because we know what's happened before, and we're pretty sure it'll happen again if you're stupid enough to do it.

I do have an ideology, yes. I believe in making sure people don't live in poverty, have medical care, are protected from other people who wish to do them harm, etc. etc. Mostly standard boilerplate american liberal stuff. That influences what policy goals I wish to see achieved.

When I say "I'm not opposing this due to rigid ideology", I'm not delusional. I know what an ideology is. And the part of me that's saying "DANGER WILL ROBINSON" isn't the part that's forming my core values as a person, it's the part that's crunching the numbers and other data we've got on hand!

 

[Deleted member 231381]

When an accountant tells you that your business is going to bankrupt if you acquire the company you're interested in, is that a "ideological" view? No, it's not. It's their cold rational analysis of the situation.

An accountant has a set objective: maximise profits. A politician has no set objective. It's not clear what the good is, or how we pursue it, or what we should place moral value on. The two are wildly incomparable, and the fact that you think politics is like accountancy is why nobody likes your candidates or your politics.

Economics should not be a belief system. If it is one for you, you are doing it completely wrong. It's a vast library of information, tools, and it allows you to take our vast human history and get a pretty good idea of what will happen if we do certain things. (The CBO, for instance? They were pretty dead on about the effects of Obamacare on insurance rates!) This is how we know basic things like "don't do hyperinflation!" Because we know what's happened before, and we're pretty sure it'll happen again if you're stupid enough to do it.

Part of economics is objective, in the sense that we can say 'the trade-off between inflation and unemployment is X:Y'. Much of economics is not. What value do we place on the importance of work to people? How much is social equality worth? What role should communalism play with respect to individualism? Should we pursue a Pareto efficient outcome even if it is more unequal than another outcome?

If you can't see the moral part of economics, you're blind. There are huge great textbooks on the matter written by frankly brilliant economists like Sen and Robinson and Arrow and Pigou and Hicks and Kaldor and Samuelson and so many, many more. These are important discussions that people need to have!

When I say "I'm not opposing this due to rigid ideology", I'm not delusional. I know what an ideology is. And the part of me that's saying "DANGER WILL ROBINSON" isn't the part that's forming my core values as a person, it's the part that's crunching the numbers and other data we've got on hand!

Number crunch better.

 

[neurosisxeno]

People are really starting to dig into the concern over Trump's mental health.

The experts noted clear changes from Trump's unscripted answers 30 years ago to those in 2017, in some cases stark enough to raise questions about his brain health. . . John Montgomery, a psychologist in New York City and adjunct professor at New York University, said ”it's hard to say definitively without rigorous testing" of Trump's speaking patterns, ”but I think it's pretty safe to say that Trump has had significant cognitive decline over the years."

No one observing Trump from afar, though, can tell whether that's ”an indication of dementia, of normal cognitive decline that many people experience as they age, or whether it's due to other factors" such as stress and emotional upheaval, said Montgomery.

. . . Linguistic decline is also obvious in two interviews with David Letterman, in 1988 and 2013, presumably with much the same kind of audience. In the first, Trump threw around words such as ”aesthetically" and ”precarious," and used long, complex sentences. In the second, he used simpler speech patterns, few polysyllabic words, and noticeably more fillers such as ”uh" and ”I mean."

Also I didn't see this until now, but what a savage headline; Merkel meets popular U.S. President...before seeing Trump.

Der Spiegel (Germany's largest news magazine) obliterates Trump in their editorial. It's pretty much what we all think about him.

A Danger to the World. It's Time to Get Rid of Donald Trump

Immediate Trumpster Response: "They're just mad because he wants to stop sending money their way, typical liberal German media."

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Montana had a case of economic anxiety huh? Oh well, lots more seats we can go after.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Am I supposed to hate work. I mean I enjoy leisure time. But I don't think I hate work. If I could get the same money for doing nothing, I guess that would be neat. I'd probably still do something that constituted work some of the time though.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Am I supposed to hate work. I mean I enjoy leisure time. But I don't think I hate work. If I could get the same money for doing nothing, I guess that would be neat. I'd probably still do something that constituted work some of the time though.

Not at all. I enjoy my job. Most people would enjoy at least some form of job, although often not the one they currently have. I think any realistic picture of society needs to take into account the human desire to feel like you contribute you something, that there's something you're good at, a part you play, that demands your skills and talents.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Primary, against six(?) other candidates, but from convention attendees only. Won in the fourth round but was the clear leader the whole way.

Also, I didn't think he was a bad candidate, for Montana, at least.

He has a history of unpaid taxes. He was clearly a bad candidate and there was probably little to no vetting done prior to his nomination

 

[The Technomancer]

An ideology is just a cohesive set of moral, political, and economic beliefs. If you didn't have an ideology, you wouldn't have any way of determining whether something was good or bad (or your determination would be inconsistent). The fact of the matter is that you think these things would have 'bad' outweighing 'good' because of your ideology. It's also a relatively rigid ideology because across every PoliGAF ever, I don't think I've ever seen you concede a point. So "I'm not opposing these things out of some rigid ideology" is a lie. And I think the worst part is that it's a lie you've taught yourself to believe.

No I don't quite think this is fair. Thinking that something wouldn't work as intended and have negative consequences is not the same as thinking something is bad because it does not adhere to some moral framework, which is what I think people tend to mean when they discuss ideology. Kirblar clearly does not oppose single payer because he doesn't believe it is right for health care to be paid for communally, which is what the opposition to single payer actually is from most people opposed to it! (i.e "its not right I have to pay for other people")

 

[shinra-bansho]

I enjoy my job. It's social and also intellectually stimulating.
This probably isn't the case for a lot of people.
Human dignity obviously shouldn't be as tied to work as our society makes it.
So, the endgame should presumably be that people don't need to work to survive. That society takes care of its people.

But realistically, as noted, there is purpose found in work. Those upper levels of Maslow's Hierarchy.

So I don't really see why in pushing for a more equitable society... the desire to do something should be frowned upon as a jobs cult...

 

[AntraxSuicide]

I get those fears whyamihere because I have them as well about other types of candidates (as in, I fear other candidates in a similar way, not for the same things) and I think you're correct and genuine about still wanting to win those seats. But one of my fears is that if the "meh on Ossoff" message gets really national without that nuance you may see those types of candidates flailing with less party support to appease the new message. As a guy in a deep red state that occasionally can throw up a Dem who wins (but would not be progressive by any means), I need that to not happen. For MS in particular, the difference between a GOP or Dem governor is stuff like the Medicaid expansion which could very well be life or death for people here.

 

[The Technomancer]

I enjoy my job. It's social and also intellectually stimulating.
This probably isn't the case for a lot of people.
Human dignity obviously shouldn't be as tied to work as our society makes it.
So, the endgame should presumably be that people don't need to work to survive. That society takes care of its people.

But realistically, as noted, there is purpose found in work. Those upper levels of Maslow's Hierarchy.

So I don't really see why in pushing for a more equitable society... the desire to do something should be frowned upon as a jobs cult...

I do also. I mean, I own my own company, I would hope I enjoy it at least on some level. And I'm not saying that 70% of the population is ever going to have to deal with not having something to do or anything, but I would feel comfortable estimating that in ideal conditions between 5 and 25% of the population would not be involved in the labor force, from a combination of disability and those people who really are just happy not working. And these days I'm not interested in systems that don't explicitly account for those people

EDIT: This is probably less related to what you were talking about and more related to my discussion on the last few pages

 

[sphagnum]

I enjoy my job. It's social and also intellectually stimulating.
This probably isn't the case for a lot of people.
Human dignity obviously shouldn't be as tied to work as our society makes it.
So, the endgame should presumably be that people don't need to work to survive. That society takes care of its people.

But realistically, as noted, there is purpose found in work. Those upper levels of Maslow's Hierarchy.

So I don't really see why in pushing for a more equitable society... the desire to do something should be frowned upon as a jobs cult...

The desire to have everyone have to go to work is the problem, not the desire to personally do something productive.

 

[Blader]

Are Dems in disarray again?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

So I don't really see why in pushing for a more equitable society... the desire to do something should be frowned upon as a jobs cult...

"jobs cult" isn't dismissing people who think that sometimes jobs can be fulfilling and stimulating for people, it's dismissing people who think that people ought to have to work in order to justify their continued existence.

 

[Ogodei]

Are Dems in disarray again?

I'm just glad Trump's not making some ass-faced tweet in support of Gianforte because he's out of the country.

I thought it would be closer, even if Quist might lose I wanted them to sweat more, especially because Gianforte seems to be a top-tier asshole even among Republicans and the guy deserves a bit of misery in his life.

Hopefully journalists hound him every day of his wretched career.

 

[kess]

The escalating crisis surrounding the Russia investigation (with reports last night on FBI interest in Jared Kushner) looks like good news for somebody in the White House: Steve Bannon.

Nine sources in the West Wing and within Trump's close orbit said the Russia situation is Bannon's shot at redemption. He's being described as a "wartime consigliere" relishing a fight against the "deep state," media, Democrats and investigators.

https://www.axios.com/bannon-back-to-fight-russia-probe-2422102907.html

 

[eBay Huckster]

gg Quist.

Honestly it's still good news if it was only R+6 in a state that's usually R+20.

I can't believe Quist almost overcame an R3-1 deficit to win.

Not at all. I enjoy my job. Most people would enjoy at least some form of job, although often not the one they currently have. I think any realistic picture of society needs to take into account the human desire to feel like you contribute you something, that there's something you're good at, a part you play, that demands your skills and talents.

frankly, if I wasn't forced to work to survive and had UBI/single-payer to help me out with the basics & my health issues I'd probably try my hand at more creative pursuits than I've been willing to let myself do under the current systems

 

[Ogodei]

https://www.axios.com/bannon-back-to-fight-russia-probe-2422102907.html

That's not a good thing for Trump though, is it? Bannon's just going to lead him further down the path of alienation.

 

[nintendoman58]

The defeatists are out in full force in the Montana thread.

 

[whyamihere]

I think I've rewritten this like 6 times at this point. Maybe I just need to ask the question- what specifically are you afraid of specifically w/ the affluent districts?

I'm not afraid of them in large part because the white nationalization wave among rural areas is radically reshaping the map and flipping these people off the GOP at the same time the rural areas are flipping onto it. When it comes to economics, there's far more opportunity for flexibility in solutions there than on issues of "are gay people people?"

And on writing a point six times: I am wary of affluent districts to elect Democrats who will expand the social safety net and social programs, or at least to the point where I think they need to be expanded to.

 

[sangreal]

I'm just glad Trump's not making some ass-faced tweet in support of Gianforte because he's out of the country..

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/26/montana-special-election-2017-gianforte-trump-238857

 

[benjipwns]

Am I supposed to hate work. I mean I enjoy leisure time. But I don't think I hate work. If I could get the same money for doing nothing, I guess that would be neat. I'd probably still do something that constituted work some of the time though.

I'd link you to whywork.org so you could escape your cult mentality but it seems the server itself has taken on the ideology.

So you'll have to trust these archive links:
homepage on which most of the links work: http://archive.is/MpZX
"The Cult of the Job": https://archive.is/kB2ye

 

[Crocodile]

The defeatists are out in full force in the Montana thread.

If Ossoff wins the best part of its will be to get those people to relax. I want a win as much as the next guy. I also recognize that we are going to have to work our butts off to reclaim the government - its not guaranteed nor are we entitled to it. However the "hot takes" from those who clearly have no idea what they are talking about (as opposed to me who only slightly knows what they are talking about LOL) are exhausting to read :/

 

[neurosisxeno]

From what I saw Quist got hurt badly from those stories in the last couple weeks--the avoiding taxes one comes to mind. I'm not surprised he lost, didn't exactly seem like a great candidate anyway. It was close though so that bodes well. Ossoff winning would be a huge morale boost for the Democrats.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Quist will lose.

"jobs cult" isn't dismissing people who think that sometimes jobs can be fulfilling and stimulating for people, it's dismissing people who think that people ought to have to work in order to justify their continued existence.

Maybe I misinterpret, it just sometimes seems disparaging of both. Basically the implication that the former is just something evil current capitalist society has ingrained in us all.

The desire to have everyone have to go to work is the problem, not the desire to personally do something productive.

Where does the idea that everyone should be doing something productive fall in this though. And I don't necessarily mean GDP generating productivity.

Like should society accept some weird reality where 80% of people just want to spend all day masturbating, eating junk and playing video games? Is that an ideal the vision for the future.

 

[tedrotheredro]

My hot take: It's a good thing to lose MT and even GA (with a small margin of course). It lulls Republicans into complacency - they'll be sick of all the winning. 2018 is the real prize.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Quist will lose.
Maybe I misinterpret, it just sometimes seems disparaging of both. Basically the implication that the former is just something evil current capitalist society has ingrained in us all.

I think society can overemphasise work and create a horrible work culture where people work stupid hours and forego important things like family and country in order to guard their social status. That's not the same as thinking work itself is innately something to be disparaged.

Where does the idea that everyone should be doing something productive fall in this though. And I don't necessarily mean GDP generating productivity.

Like should society accept some weird reality where 80% of people just want to spend all day masturbating, eating junk and playing video games? Is that an ideal the vision for the future.

If that's what floats your boat, go for it, but most people want more in their lives than that.

 

[whyamihere]

Rurals coming in. Quist is boned.

Bet it's Gianforte +6.

u r so wise

 

[benjipwns]

they'll be sick of all the winning

Trump-O-Meter™: promise kept

 

[shinra-bansho]

What is "forgoing country"??

I'd like to think people would want more than that.
But I also think people kind of suck.

Birdie's Kiss of Death already ensured this loss.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

What is "forgoing country"??

Community activities. When I was between jobs, I worked for a homeless shelter in Cardiff. Other people organise village fetes, run for school boards, organise pub quizzes, take their kids to parks, do the old lady down the road's plumbing. Most people I know who are fortunate enough to have income and free time find something to occupy themselves with of that sort.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

What is the score on the Montana election? How much did Gianforte win by?

 

[shinra-bansho]

Oh, community involvement.
Country sounded uncharacteristically nationalist.

 

[sphagnum]

Where does the idea that everyone should be doing something productive fall in this though. And I don't necessarily mean GDP generating productivity.

Like should society accept some weird reality where 80% of people just want to spend all day masturbating, eating junk and playing video games? Is that an ideal the vision for the future.

If automation makes it so we can keep up productivity and don't need people to work, why not? It shouldn't be our job to legislate what people decide to do with their lives.

A lot of rich people get to sit around and do that anyway already.

It has been objected that upon the abolition of private property, all work will cease, and universal laziness will overtake us. According to this, bourgeois society ought long ago to have gone to the dogs through sheer idleness; for those of its members who work acquire nothing, and those who acquire anything do not work.

 

[Plinko]

In case anyone forgot:

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Oh, community involvement.
Country sounded uncharacteristically nationalist.

I mean, it is a little bit because of nationalism. I have never met anyone from Aberdeen. I certainly haven't met Jim from Aberdeen, and I know nothing about Jim's personality, music tastes, interests, favourite TV show, anything, really. We don't work in similar industries, we're different ages, sexualities. But at the end of the day, I still pay in my taxes and put money towards homeless charities because we share a cultural link - shared language, shared history, shared identity. In our heads, we're both British. Nationalism can do powerful good as well as powerful evil.

Your reading list for the day: http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/site/work/essays/lionunicorn.html

 

[IggyChooChoo]

Community activities. When I was between jobs, I worked for a homeless shelter in Cardiff. Other people organise village fetes, run for school boards, organise pub quizzes, take their kids to parks, do the old lady down the road's plumbing. Most people I know who are fortunate enough to have income and free time find something to occupy themselves with of that sort.

I want to hear more about these Welsh village fetes.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

From what I saw Quist got hurt badly from those stories in the last couple weeks--the avoiding taxes one comes to mind. I'm not surprised he lost, didn't exactly seem like a great candidate anyway. It was close though so that bodes well. Ossoff winning would be a huge morale boost for the Democrats.

Quist never really had a chance to define himself positively to Montana, so Republicans took advantage and defined him negatively early on.

If you have to defend your unpaid taxes, you're already losing. Democrats need to do better vetting of candidates.