• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

Status
Not open for further replies.
"Cult of work" is a really loaded idea.

To the extent that some people in society have to work for society itself to be viable, I think it's a fair question to determine what is expected of any given individual, and why. Clearly "if you don't work, you're a leech" is too simplistic-- as many people cannot or should not work. But making that determination leads to all sorts of issues.

One concern I have with basic income is making the incentive to work real enough that people will, yet not make the benefit so great that people who don't work will be marginalized.
 
In case anyone forgot:

DArRKu8W0AEE5LG.png

Seems fair. /s

As for productivity, society, masturbating: I'm pretty sure if we had a society where people were free to do whatever they wished and weren't pigeonholed into the work force it'd just breed more creativity/individual productivity. Sure junk food, masturbating and video games are nice, and I imagine that outside of schooling (which would have to change in some regard to go along with a society that doesn't require work) that would be kinda the norm for most younger individuals, I think as you age your priorities change.

As someone from an upper middle class background I've been afforded a situation where I can focus my energy on pursuing my own projects. I work on my writing, reviewing anime, etc. Passion projects. I'm 29 now and work more than I did a few years ago, because lazing about gaming, masturbating, watching anime, Dr. Who, what have you, holds less and less appeal. They're still fun things to do, but not nearly as much as when I was younger.

My suspicion is that if more people could lead a life similar to mine you'd see more people pursuing passions rather than lazing about all the time, especially as people aged.
 
Too long, have work to do.
If automation makes it so we can keep up productivity and don't need people to work, why not? It shouldn't be our job to legislate what people decide to do with their lives.

A lot of rich people get to sit around and do that anyway already.
It's probably not psychologically healthy for them either if that's all they're doing.
I mean I'm not really talking about traditional "work" here. It could be organising Welsh fetes.
I'm not really interested in your dead Russian god, Mr Wednesday isn't even trying to recruit him so he can't be that powerful.

I'm basically positing the world full of NEET stereotypes that are given no impetus to do anything and therefore do nothing by choice.
Is that dystopia ever really something to strive for.
 

dramatis

Member
Four months into the Trump administration, the president's lawyer needs a lawyer.
Intensifying investigations into Russian interference in last year's presidential election and ties between Russians and the Trump campaign have a lot of high-profile people in search of legal advice, if only out of an abundance of caution. And, two sources tell NPR, one of them is White House counsel Donald McGahn.

Experts said it's natural that McGahn would seek out legal expertise; he served as the lawyer for President Trump's campaign, which has come under scrutiny from the FBI and Congress. This week, Trump himself reportedly enlisted New York lawyer Marc Kasowitz, a self-described "tough guy" corporate litigator, to help him with legal issues related to Russia.
Others are noticing signs of trouble, too. "Yo, Where's Don McGahn?" asked a headline in The American Lawyer. "Clean Up on Aisle Trump," concluded the left-leaning magazine Mother Jones.

To be sure, five lawyers told NPR, it's not clear what kind of advice McGahn may be providing the president — or whether the president is listening to it. "Who knows?" one attorney said, adding that he's inclined to point the finger at the client, as much as the lawyer.

Sounds like fun.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Would the Montana race have been different had the democrats run a "blue dog"-type candidate? I'm just getting tired of democrats running these people who seem to not fit the areas in which they are running. A socialist in Montana is just bizarre.
 
Would the Montana race have been different had the democrats run a "blue dog"-type candidate? I'm just getting tired of democrats running these people who seem to not fit the areas in which they are running. A socialist in Montana is just bizarre.
I think a blue dog would have done worse. You either give people an actual choice or you lose.
 
Would the Montana race have been different had the democrats run a "blue dog"-type candidate? I'm just getting tired of democrats running these people who seem to not fit the areas in which they are running. A socialist in Montana is just bizarre.

I don't know that policy matters much. Quist just failed to define himself and the GOP took to doing it for him early on with things like his unpaid taxes, gun rights, etc
 

Blader

Member
Democrats need to drop gun control. It sucks, but it kills them in these kinds of races.

I don't even know what "drop gun control" means, and I've been seeing it parroted a lot lately. Is the idea that Dems will no longer talk guns? If they're asked at a debate or by a constituent, "what your's stance on gun rights," their response should be "whatever the NRA wants"?

Are voters who place a big emphasis on guns rights and are hysterically allergic to the mention of gun control supposed to fall for that?



Here's an encouraging thread from Bad Nate:

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/868119539145428993

Special elections so far are consistent with an environment that leans Democratic by 14 points (that's a *lot* -- more than 2006 or 2008).

That's for Congressional specials. For state legislative specials so far, it's been a Democrat +11 environment.

Correction... Dems are outperforming by 15 points in Congressional specials, not 14 (previously-listed totals for KS-4 were slightly off).

The broader point is that, while you can make excuses for the GOP in individual races like MT-AL, there's been a consistent pattern here.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
On the bright side, the average polling swing has been +14 democrats recently, and that should be more than enough to take back the House in 2018 if it holds. Right now, the pace is even higher than the last two major swings.

Edit: Beaten by Blader
Blader said:
I don't even know what "drop gun control" means, and I've been seeing it parroted a lot lately. Is the idea that Dems will no longer talk guns? If they're asked at a debate or by a constituent, "what your's stance on gun rights," their response should be "whatever the NRA wants"?

Are voters who place a big emphasis on guns rights and are hysterically allergic to the mention of gun control supposed to fall for that?

I wouldn't go with "drop" gun control, but I'd like a consistent, clear message about it. Most Americans support thorough background checks. Democrats should run on that while assuring the electorate that's as far as they will ever go.
 

studyguy

Member
Democrats aren't suddenly going to swing a mess of voters in 2018 or even 2020 by refusing to talk about gun control. This notion is absurd.

The backdrop of the entire Dem platform for the past decade doesn't suddenly melt away because you stopped talking about guns yesterday.
 
Here's an encouraging thread from Bad Nate:

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/868119539145428993



I don't even know what "drop gun control" means, and I've been seeing it parroted a lot lately. Is the idea that Dems will no longer talk guns? If they're asked at a debate or by a constituent, "what your's stance on gun rights," their response should be "whatever the NRA wants"?

Are voters who place a big emphasis on guns rights and are hysterically allergic to the mention of gun control supposed to fall for that?
No. It's stupid. And it ignores communities of color that have been asking for gun control. Voters aren't stupid. If gun control decides your vote, you're probably not picking the Democrat no matter what they say. Same with a lot of other things. You've got to find a base that agrees with you instead of trying this failed bullshit Clintonite garbage that kirblar keeps proposing where you run Republican-lites. It's not going to work. It might work short term and get you the house for a term or two but it's not a long term winning coalition that you can rely on time after time.
 

Ogodei

Member
With gun control, you're going to get tarred and feathered by the NRA for the D next to your name, no sense in compromising your values on something that's not going to help.

Of course, gun-grabbing or gun bans are losing issues unless you're running in a race in a big city, but i don't think there's anything wrong with most Democrats sticking to "sensible regulation" (closing the gun show loophole, etc) and just downplaying the issue altogether.
 
I want to talk a bit about Partisan Voting Index, because there's a bit of a subtlety to how they're computed that seems to be causing a lot of confusion, and I don't think the corrections being given in this thread are actually all that helpful and may even be harmful to understanding.

When we think about election results, most of us think in terms of margins, i.e., the difference between the candidates. If an election results in:

Alice: 51%
Bob: 49%

We think of Alice as winning by 2 points.

This, however, is not what PVI refers to. PVI does three things. First, it factors out all third party votes. Second, it compares local results to national results. Most importantly for this discussion, it's based on vote shares, not vote margins. In the example above there's only two candidates, so we don't need to worry about factoring out third parties, but instead of comparing Alice's votes to Bob's, we compare her votes to 50%. Adapting the language of PVI we would say this result is "Alice+1," not "Alice+2."

When people say "Montana is R+20 but this election was only R+6" what they mean is Trump won by 20 points and Gianforte only won by 6. This is an improper use of "R+X" but it is at least an apples to apples comparison.

When Cook says Montana is R+11 what they mean is that, in a hypothetical election where the vote is evenly split between Democrats and Republicans, we would expect the Republican to get 61% of the two party vote to the Democrat's 39%, that is, pretty close to a 20 point margin assuming a "normal" third party vote. When you say "Montana is R+11 not R+20" you're correcting the first statement but not the second, which encourages the reader to compare vote shares to vote margins, an apples to oranges comparison.

If we want to translate this election into the language of PVI, we shouldn't call the result R+6. Rather, we compute that Gianforte got about 53% of the two-party vote (53.2% to be more precise) so the result was R+3.

That's quite the underperformance in an R+11 district. Of course there are a lot of cautions in order when dealing with PVI due to its inherent limitations (I could easily write another long post about cautions one should take when interpreting PVI), but this is consistent with evidence of a strong political environment for Democrats.
 

Blader

Member
I wouldn't go with "drop" gun control, but I'd like a consistent, clear message about it. Most Americans support thorough background checks. Democrats should run on that while assuring the electorate that's as far as they will ever go.

Background checks has been the consistent drum beat since Sandy Hook. That's all that Dems have put on the table. But the GOP, NRA, et al. constantly -- and successfully! -- spin that into "Dems want to take your guns away" because those voters genuinely believe background checks are the beginning of a slippery slope where the federal government confiscates your hunting rifles.

Obama and Hillary were pretty clear about what they wanted. Gun rights voters don't hear it and don't believe it.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
No. It's stupid. And it ignores communities of color that have been asking for gun control. Voters aren't stupid. If gun control decides your vote, you're probably not picking the Democrat no matter what they say. Same with a lot of other things. You've got to find a base that agrees with you instead of trying this failed bullshit Clintonite garbage that kirblar keeps proposing where you run Republican-lites. It's not going to work.

This right here is why I wonder about the real chances of a democratic takeover of government any time soon. Many democrats feel like anybody anywhere near a moderate position is therefore a "Republican-lite." It's damaging to the party's chances. Running cookie-cutter democrats in every area is what they've been doing in recent history, and they've paid the price for it. It isn't working.

Background checks has been the consistent drum beat since Sandy Hook. That's all that Dems have put on the table. But the GOP, NRA, et al. constantly -- and successfully! -- spin that into "Dems want to take your guns away" because those voters genuinely believe background checks are the beginning of a slippery slope where the federal government confiscates your hunting rifles.

Obama and Hillary were pretty clear about what they wanted. Gun rights voters don't hear it and don't believe it.

Right, but as I mentioned, the messaging has been bad. They HAVE to overcome the GOP spin. That's been the democrats' issue for years now. They are ineffective at it, and that needs to change.
 

kirblar

Member
When you're far enough to the left, everyone looks likes a Republican to you! This is why you ignore that POV and run candidates appropriate to the district.
 

Blader

Member
Right, but as I mentioned, the messaging has been bad. They HAVE to overcome the GOP spin. That's been the democrats' issue for years now. They are ineffective at it, and that needs to change.

There's that word again...

If you're a gun nut predisposed to think background checks is step #1 in a government takeover of your firearms, I don't know what "messaging" or spin to the contrary is supposed to overcome that. Maybe it's not that Democrats are bad at messaging on guns so much as enough voters simply hate the message?
 
I don't even know what "drop gun control" means, and I've been seeing it parroted a lot lately. Is the idea that Dems will no longer talk guns? If they're asked at a debate or by a constituent, "what your's stance on gun rights," their response should be "whatever the NRA wants"?

Are voters who place a big emphasis on guns rights and are hysterically allergic to the mention of gun control supposed to fall for that?

I don't even know it matters anyway. No one would classify Quist as pro-gun control, but he was attacked hard by the NRA. Anyone with a D next to their name is going to be hit by the NRA unless that person has considerable background in state government or otherwise doing whatever the NRA wants.

We all like to talk about Kander's great ad, but even he was attacked hard by the NRA.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I'm less concerned about labels like "centrist", "leftist", "Republican lite" than I am about the actual logistics of elections. That was my point above: if you're far to the left (I'm quite a bit further than the general population but less so than a lot of people on Twitter) how do you make an honest assessment of the electoral popularity of your positions? Polls show 63% of the population supports us on this issue or that, awesome, does that translate into seats where we need them?

If the answer is no then we need to accept that we're not going to run on that and then frankly bully it through when we get power anyway
 
I don't really think Quist's issue was not being centrist enough. First of all, that's a nebulous concept anyway. Most would consider Ossoff more of a centrist than Quist and Ossoff would be a terrible candidate for Montana (but is a good candidate for suburban Atlanta). Quist's issues as a candidate had more to do with inexperience and personal issues than his policy positions.

I think it's important to have candidates that fit their districts, but that has less to do with policy positions than one would think. Voters will give you more leeway on policy if you can come across as being "one of them," i.e., you can speak their language, understand their concerns, and communicate ideas in a way that addresses those concerns. It's part of why people get so excited about Kander and Buttigieg
(yes, the 2020 talk is ridiculous)
, because they can do that.

I don't think this fully resolves the dilemma whyamihere identified, but I do think we have to compromise on policy less than one might think to compete in rural and suburban states/districts. I'm not saying that you just take all the policy positions of someone representing an urban district and make sure the candidate has the right accent. Some positions just won't work for a given district. But I think it's wrong to just look at policy when we talk about competing in R-lean districts.
 
Matthew Yglesias @mattyglesias 13m
KS-04 R+15
MT-AL R+11
GA-06 R+8

Paul Ryan's seat is R+5
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Any Wisconsin gaffer want to take down the speaker of the house?
 
The NRA will come after you for background checks. There is no way to drop gun control without become actually pro gun

And yes you are abandoning people of color whose lives have been ruined by out of control gun proliferation. I agree the party needs to have a consistent message but it needs to be a strong message disregarding what the NRA will think. And the loudest voice cannot be some northeasterner who has never fired a gun.
 

Blader

Member
I don't think Quist even talked about guns and cut that ad where he shoots the TV until the NRA started attacking him, right?

So, do you come out first saying "I support background checks only" and get attacked by the NRA? Or do you stay silent on guns until the NRA attacks you, at which point they've defined you no matter what your response?

"Dems need to stop running on guns" just doesn't seem like an actually actionable strategy to me when the other side has already got you framed no matter what you do or don't say.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Quist never really had a chance to define himself positively to Montana, so Republicans took advantage and defined him negatively early on.

If you have to defend your unpaid taxes, you're already losing. Democrats need to do better vetting of candidates.
But he had a cowboy hat! To us snobby coastal elite that = Instant Credibility with middle America.
 

This is a good tweet. I like his use of margins (as I said in that long post, they're how most people are used to thinking about election results) and giving 2016 more weight than 2012 also seems like the right decision. Either way, it shows what should be clear but a lot of people aren't seeing because the Democrats haven't pulled off the big win yet. The current political environment is favorable to Democrats.
 
My hot take: It's a good thing to lose MT and even GA (with a small margin of course). It lulls Republicans into complacency - they'll be sick of all the winning. 2018 is the real prize.

A scared GOP is not necessarily a stronger GOP in 2018. The more scared they are the more likely top-tier potential candidates decide to sit this one out. I'm all for Ossoff winning if it hurts their recruitment.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
There's that word again...

If you're a gun nut predisposed to think background checks is step #1 in a government takeover of your firearms, I don't know what "messaging" or spin to the contrary is supposed to overcome that. Maybe it's not that Democrats are bad at messaging on guns so much as enough voters simply hate the message?

Whether or not you don't like the word, it still applies. Also, assuming that every single one of these people is a "gun nut" that only votes on gun issues is not a good idea. There's a solid chunk that will (and my guess is that number is close to Trump's base number), but there are votes out there to be had from those who aren't "gun nuts."
 
I don't really think Quist's issue was not being centrist enough. First of all, that's a nebulous concept anyway. Most would consider Ossoff more of a centrist than Quist and Ossoff would be a terrible candidate for Montana (but is a good candidate for suburban Atlanta). Quist's issues as a candidate had more to do with inexperience and personal issues than his policy positions.
.

We don't have enough data to know why but one thing thats pretty clear is that Quist lost a ton of the kind of suburban voters that you're talking about. He ran 20 points behind Bullard in the county that holds Billings and its suburbs. To have a chance in Montana, a candidate has to run up huge margins in urban areas and Quist couldn't do it.
 
Man; where was this Clinton pre-election? If she was always as loose as this, she might've been able to fight some of the trustworthy stuff more easily.

Edit:

Oh shit calling out Trump by comparing how she felt as a student with Nixon. "We were upset about the presidential election, of a man who would go down due to obstruction of justice"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom