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[Ryuuroden]

Looking forward to all the grudging endorsements of Joe Manchin from pragmatic PoliGAF now that he's endorsed leaving the Paris climate accords.

if your party controls the chamber, your leadership controls what exits committee and goes to a vote. nuff said.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

It's interesting watching Fox News descend into another reality where the climate is magically okay, the poor live like kings, and jobs pour forth like shit from an asshole that just ate a month's worth of Chipotle.

You could see Fox transition from a right wing media outlet to a breitbart/drudge report news channel a few weeks back when bombs kept getting dropped on Trump every day.

Hannity and Carlson in particular lost their damn minds.

 

[mo60]

I really hate how some right wing politicians were I live are openly supporting trump's exit for the Paris Accord.

 

[Ogodei]

It's a complete political loser but it's actually necessary as part of the transition to a car insurance model for health care.

This is why if we have the GOP pass this horribly unpopular part of it for us, it's a big net win for us going forward. We get a necessary but unpopular change added to the books, and we get to run against them on it while not actually changing it once in power. Right out of the GOP playbook!

The reason we have our shitty employer-sponsored health care system in the first place is that during WWII wages were capped while benefits were not. So instead of offering more cash, they offered paid-for insurance. Once people got home, and the wage caps were lifted, people didn't want to give up the benefits. And so it eventually became formalized even though no economist or policymaker would actively want to set up this shitty system.

We need to get off this system into one w/ an individual mandate and where you go and pick out your own insurance options, so you're no longer insurance-locked depending on your employers' whims. An important part of this is that we need the funds that your employer spends on your monthly health care premium sent to you directly so you can spend them as you please! However, those funds are currently not taxed like normal income, and are thus not something you are allowed to mix together. By taxing them like normal income, they are now intermixable, and it allow you to start the process of converting those benefits to direct salary for employees.

The problem is legally obligating your employer to pass the savings on to you. Big business would be in favor of a ban on employer-sponsored healthcare because it would be an absolute windfall for them while completely screwing countless people across the span of the 99% (because even if you are making low 6-figures like my dad is, private insurance for a family of five would eat most of your disposable income).

It's not the best idea, even as a thought exercise, because if there's the political will to do something like that, then there's the political will to, say, raise the Medicaid cap to $40,000/year for an individual.

 

[dramatis]

Attacking your own is totally the way to go.

This is kind of an ironic thing to say considering that Bernie or Bust people were attacking their own.

 

[kirblar]

The problem is legally obligating your employer to pass the savings on to you. Big business would be in favor of a ban on employer-sponsored healthcare because it would be an absolute windfall for them while completely screwing countless people across the span of the 99% (because even if you are making low 6-figures like my dad is, private insurance for a family of five would eat most of your disposable income).

It's not the best idea, even as a thought exercise, because if there's the political will to do something like that, then there's the political will to, say, raise the Medicaid cap to $40,000/year for an individual.

Correct. Figuring out how to get those wages passed on is the tricky part here.

What people don't realize is that their costs to employers (via health care) have been skyrocketing even though their wages are flatlining, because their wages have a hidden parasite sucking up all the new money. You need to make that parasite visible.

 

[CygnusXS]

Okay. Catch you later when he votes for the Senate health care bill!

Catch you later when you find a progressive who can win in a state that Trump won by 50 points.

Y'all need more than two parties.

 

[broz0rs]

Macron trying to be Obama's successor on Twitter.

 

[Zolo]

You could see Fox transition from a right wing media outlet to a breitbart/drudge report news channel a few weeks back when bombs kept getting dropped on Trump every day.

Hannity and Carlson in particular lost their damn minds.

The fact they have to do so shows just how horrible the Trump admin really is. Fox News has been doing nothing, but criticizing and attacking for so long, they can't even properly defend.

 

[Fenderputty]

The problem is legally obligating your employer to pass the savings on to you. .

Turn employer contributions into taxable income and you've done this no?

The problem is raising taxes on 119 million people while still kicking people off healthcare. We're gonna have to go through some shit to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[TestOfTide]

It's interesting watching Fox News descend into another reality where the climate is magically okay, the poor live like kings, and jobs pour forth like shit from an asshole that just ate a month's worth of Chipotle.

They make a professional contortionist jealous with the amount of back breaking bending they do to support whatever comes out of that bleeding hemorrhoid's mouth.

Like I have been saying, post-Trump they have gone full-breitbart. There is a reason Roger Ailes never intended for the network to go full-breitbart: It has limited appeal and advertisers don't like being featured on breitbart style shit.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

The fact they have to do so shows just how horrible the Trump admin really is. Fox News has been doing nothing, but criticizing and attacking for so long, they can't even properly defend.

They used the same strategy for every single story.

-"This isnt true, anon sources"
-"And even if it is true, its not a big deal"
-"What about <insert Obama/Clinton/Democrats>"
-"The real story is how hysterical and liberal mainstream media is".

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

Wolf Blitzer just called Gary Cohn a Globalist to his face. Lol.

 

[Zolo]

-"The real story is how hysterical and liberal mainstream media is".

I nearly got myself into a verbal argument with two professors I walked by using this argument because this was basically what they were talking about.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I nearly got myself into a verbal argument with two professors I walked by using this argument because this was basically what they were talking about.

I know, having the audacity to report the news, such bias. Fox News was unbiased enough not to cover any of those stories until the next day. Fair and balanced.

 

[pigeon]

Sure, Manchin is still better than a hard R sitting there. Next?

We've covered this. Literally any 'D' who might vote against the President even 1% of the time is better than any 'R' that would in lockstep. Fortunately he's a lot more reliable than just 1%.

Exactly. He'll vote for Schumer as majority leader. Captain Coal Roller wouldn't.

Edit: Dubya was only worse than Trump (so far) because he at least surrounded himself with competently bad people and listened to them most of the time.

Catch you later when you find a progressive who can win in a state that Trump won by 50 points.

if your party controls the chamber, your leadership controls what exits committee and goes to a vote. nuff said.

The Democratic Party: We Oppose White Supremacy and Climate Change Unless Supporting It Would Be Politically Expedient.

Good luck with that turnout problem, guys!

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

And then she proceeded to offer him a Coke.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Manchin isn't there to fuck over poor people, he's there to fuck over black people. So I don't see why he'd be dumb enough to vote for Trumpcare.

Also, it's always funny to see people reference Shattered, because I recall someone saying it was originally about how she won.
Then we ended up in this reality and it was reframed to fit.

 

[kirblar]

The Democratic Party: We Oppose White Supremacy and Climate Change Unless Supporting It Would Be Politically Expedient.

Good luck with that turnout problem, guys!

Because WV, Union State with Confederate Flags all over, is totally a turnout problem, right?

 

[TestOfTide]

The Democratic Party: We Oppose White Supremacy and Climate Change Unless Supporting It Would Be Politically Expedient.

Good luck with that turnout problem, guys!

I'll tell you what. If you can prove that people like Manchin are the reason Democrats got low turnout across the 50 states, I'll sign on to your plan to kick his types out of the party.

Deal?

 

[Plinko]

As much as I can't stand Olbermann sometimes, he just tweeted something that I think democrats should make a key point in their marketing:

There are now two parties: Republicans and Americans.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Americans suck though.

 

[jtb]

As much as I can't stand Olbermann sometimes, he just tweeted something that I think democrats should make a key point in their marketing:

There are now two parties: Republicans and Americans.

That's horrible.

If anything, we need to detox the Democratic label.

 

[TestOfTide]

As much as I can't stand Olbermann sometimes, he just tweeted something that I think democrats should make a key point in their marketing:

There are now two parties: Republicans and Americans.

One thing that I think the democrats DID do right last year was become the party of a new, diverse kind of patriotism.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

The Democratic Party: We Oppose White Supremacy and Climate Change Unless Supporting It Would Be Politically Expedient.

Good luck with that turnout problem, guys!

So there's no excuse for his progressive primary candidate to lose right?

 

[NeoXChaos]

Manchin represents West Virginia. He does not represent not California, Michigan, Mississippi etc. He is beholden to his constituents that live in his state.

Manchin is voting no different than a Democrat from MS, TN, AL, LA, KY etc would vote in if one were in the senate now.

Short of a culture shock you will always have more conservative D's in those places. Been that way since the beginning of the South.

 

[Ryuuroden]

The Democratic Party: We Oppose White Supremacy and Climate Change Unless Supporting It Would Be Politically Expedient.

Good luck with that turnout problem, guys!

Yeah, Joe Fucking Manchin, A senator in a single actually pretty non consequential state is totally known to the general public in the other 49 states and his actions are totally followed by them and deemed to be the voice of the democratic party. Almost all people who aren't that invested in the political process don't look beyond their own area and the rest of the nation is a monolith, they are not looking at individuals but the party as a whole. Manchin can do his own thing and the Dems in the other states can do their own thing.

 

[Plinko]

That's horrible.

If anything, we need to detox the Democratic label.

I'm not saying democrats should rename their party. Just include themselves in the American category and play off Republicans as enemies to all but a minute portion of society.

One thing that I think the democrats DID do right last year was become the party of a new, diverse kind of patriotism.

Agreed. I want more of that. Zero reason republicans should have claim to military. Just infuriating democrats haven't been able to grab that back a bit.

 

[Emerson]

The Democratic Party: We Oppose White Supremacy and Climate Change Unless Supporting It Would Be Politically Expedient.

Good luck with that turnout problem, guys!

Good luck accomplishing literally anything ever when you've ground the party down to a fifteen-Senator far left base. Hey, nothing will get done and the republicans will continue to ruin everything, but at least nobody can accuse you of being a hypocrite.

 

[kirblar]

Yeah, Joe Fucking Manchin, A senator in a single actually pretty non consequential state is totally known to the general public in the other 49 states and his actions are totally followed by them and deemed to be the voice of the democratic party. Almost all people who aren't that invested in the political process don't look beyond their own area and the rest of the nation is a monolith, they are not looking at individuals but the party as a whole. Manchin can do his own thing and the Dems in the other states can do their own thing.

If you want a 50-state strategy, part of allowing that to happen is accepting that some of the other 50 states really fucking suck.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Manchin represents West Virginia. He does not represent not California, Michigan, Mississippi etc. He is beholden to his constituents that live in his state.

Manchin is voting no different than a Democrat from MS, TN, AL, LA, KY etc would vote in if one were in the senate now.

I mean it is worth noting this attitude isn't really afforded to other representatives.

It won't be afforded to Gillary with all her WALL ST money.

 

[BoogieWoogie]

Did Russian banker head straight to Putin after meeting w/ Kushner? Really interesting from WaPo on the flight data. http://wapo.st/2rgKk0m

https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/870415895230894080

 

[TestOfTide]

Manchin represents West Virginia. He does not represent not California, Michigan, Mississippi etc. He is beholden to his constituents that live in his state.

Manchin is voting no different than a Democrat from MS, TN, AL, LA, KY etc would vote in if one were in the senate now.

Actually, I'd argue that if a Democrat won the Senate seat for LA, AL, or MS these days, it would be because they somehow managed to maximize the "blue southern line" and thus they wouldn't be relying on a 95% rural white voter base.

I guess what I'm saying is that literally you can't get more a conservative state than West Virginia or Oklahoma.

 

[Kusagari]

As much as I can't stand Olbermann sometimes, he just tweeted something that I think democrats should make a key point in their marketing:

There are now two parties: Republicans and Americans.

That sounds like deplorables 2.0 to me. Don't like it.

 

[jtb]

If ban bets were still a thing, I'd bet my account that Manchin doesn't vote for the AHCA. WV is one of the poorest states in the nation, with some of the highest Medicaid participation. It would be antithetical to all of his political positions up until this point.

The bill is significantly more toxic to Moore Capito than to Manchin.

 

[fredrancour]

If ban bets were still a thing, I'd bet my account that Manchin doesn't vote for the AHCA. WV is one of the poorest states in the nation, with some of the highest Medicaid participation. It would be antithetical to all of his political positions up until this point.

The bill is significantly more toxic to Moore Capito than to Manchin.

Does that matter for capito? Do we have a second viable manchin to throw at her?

 

[TestOfTide]

If ban bets were still a thing, I'd bet my account that Manchin doesn't vote for the AHCA. WV is one of the poorest states in the nation, with some of the highest Medicaid participation. It would be antithetical to all of his political positions up until this point.

The bill is significantly more toxic to Moore Capito than to Manchin.

I agree. He easily voted against Devos because he can campaign against her.

Manchin can easily run ads saying he voted against a bill that would deny millions of West Virginia workers health care.

In fact I will even go so far as to say that if Manchin DID vote for the AHCA, his opponent would use that against him in ads.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Does that matter for capito? Do we have a second viable manchin to throw at her?

Jim Justice, if he gets tired of being governor.

Might be hard to dislodge an incumbent though. Capito only got in when Rockefeller retired.

And guys, Manchin isn't voting for AHCA, come on. I'll change my avatar to a monkey's butt if he does. (It doesn't count if they radically change it just FYI)

 

[jtb]

Does that matter for capito? Do we have a second viable manchin to throw at her?

Jim Justice?

 

[pigeon]

Good luck accomplishing literally anything ever when you've ground the party down to a fifteen-Senator far left base.

Today I learned opposing white supremacy and climate change is a far left position.


Just kidding! I learned that moderate white progressives don't really care about white supremacy if it impedes their electoral goals months ago.

 

[kirblar]

The people of WV aren't moderate white progressives.

 

[fredrancour]

Jim Justice?

We got so few governors in place already, though. What if we inflicted a Scott walker wannabe on WV?

 

[Emerson]

Today I learned opposing white supremacy and climate change is a far left position.


Just kidding! I learned that moderate white progressives don't really care about white supremacy if it impedes their electoral goals months ago.

Nah, they're not, but it's plenty clear the sort of purity you're after.

 

[pigeon]

The people of WV aren't moderate white progressives.

Duh?

Nah, they're not, but it's plenty clear the sort of purity you're after.

Lol, yeah, that's me, hardcore Berner

 

[kirblar]

Duh?

So what are your expectations of Confederate Flag Capital, USA, exactly?

What sort of Dem do you think it is possible to win with who would satisfy your preconditions?

This isn't us saying Manchin is great - hopefully we don't have to rely on him for anything in the future and can just ignore him! But it's better to have the extra number than not, because the alternative is even worse.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

You don't really have to raise your standards all that much to find Joe Manchin distasteful. It's barely a step left. In my opinion, fuck West Virginia, we'll do fine without it. The state was founded on hatred of black people. We don't have any branches of government right now, actually standing for something isn't going to hurt us all that much and as pigeon points out it looks better to your base because you're a principled leader rather than am amorphous puppet of political whim.

Also, this whole argument of "we need the center for electoral power" ignores that in hyperpartisan environments (e.g. NOW) you move to the poles, not the center. Duh!

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Today I learned opposing white supremacy and climate change is a far left position.


Just kidding! I learned that moderate white progressives don't really care about white supremacy if it impedes their electoral goals months ago.

I'll ask again since you conveniently ignored me.


So there's no excuse for his progressive primary candidate to lose right?

 

[Ryuuroden]

Today I learned opposing white supremacy and climate change is a far left position.


Just kidding! I learned that moderate white progressives don't really care about white supremacy if it impedes their electoral goals months ago.

I know that 1 "white supremacist' in my party that allows the other, lets say 50 or even say 59 NON white supremacists in my party who are now in power to do things is better than lets say 52 "white supremacists" or 60 "white supremacists" in the other party controlling things.

That's also on the entire premise that Joe Manchin IS a white supremacist which is a hyperbolic label for him.

 

[kirblar]

You don't really have to raise your standards all that much to find Joe Manchin distasteful. It's barely a step left. In my opinion, fuck West Virginia, we'll do fine without it. The state was founded on hatred of black people. We don't have any branches of government right now, actually standing for something isn't going to hurt us all that much and as pigeon points out it looks better to your base because you're a principled leader rather than am amorphous puppet of political whim.

Uh... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia#Separation_from_Virginia

West Virginia was the only state in the Union to separate from a Confederate state (Virginia) during the American Civil War.

(This is what makes the flags such a good example of not actually being about "Southern pride" or whatever nonsense they shit out of their mouths)

 

[TestOfTide]

Today I learned opposing white supremacy and climate change is a far left position.


Just kidding! I learned that moderate white progressives don't really care about white supremacy if it impedes their electoral goals months ago.

I asked you before, so I'm gonna ask you again:

Show me evidence that Joe Manchin types are causing lower turnout in the other 49 states.

Like, if it were LITERALLY any other state besides West Virginia or Oklahoma, I would get your beef, but unless you can prove to me that West Virginia democrats like Manchin cause Democrats in swing states to be less likely to turnout, I don't see the point of being so focussed on kicking Manchin out.