PoliGAF Debate #3 Thread of Hey Joe, where you goin' with that plunger in your hand

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Joe the plant?

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008...wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.
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This whole Joe vetting is getting crazy... poor (i guess) fella.....
 
Cooter said:
He can then use that as evidence why it shouldn't happen again with a party that typically likes to spend even more. It would give him another chance to talk tough about his party.



Not even. A filabuster proof senate was something the GOP never had and should scare the living shit out of any reasonable voter. I think it would play to the center very well.
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It's too late for McCain to make this case. And it's a pretty good one in its appeal to centrists/independents. But it only serves as a reminder how horrible a campaign McCain has run in that it hasn't really even been brought up (I do remember one commercial alluding to this though).
 
Gary Whitta said:
LOL Obama is giving a whole speech about pie, this is awesome!
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Oh man. I don't like this. Obama is risking his support amongst the key "cake likers" demographic.
 
bob_arctor said:
It's too late for McCain to make this case. And it's a pretty good one in its appeal to centrists/independents. But it only serves as a reminder how horrible a campaign McCain has run in that it hasn't really even been brought up (I do remember one commercial alluding to this though).
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I disagree. The closer we get the numbers are really pointing torwards a huge dem sweep in congress. I think he could do some damage with it.
 
Crayon Shinchan said:
I wonder how many libetarians that cite human nature have ever studied psychology... you know... the study of human nature?
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That's anthropology. Both are intensely fascinating fields though!
 
Cooter said:
I disagree. The closer we get the numbers are really pointing torwards a huge dem sweep in congress.
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I think that this will change as we get closer to election day. Most of the pundits seem to be agreeing that the next move is to pull funds out of the presidential race and focus on saving Congressional seats. So I wouldn't make this conclusion yet until we get closer since there may be a chance that the Republicans can save some of those seats.

I think he could do some damage with it.
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If by damage you mean peace, health, and prosperity, then by all means, bring the damage on :lol

Yes, I know, it's going to be tough to get anything meaningful done with the current economic crisis... :(
 
McCain is speaking and there is some prep boy in the background shaking his head at everything and booing while holding a McCain/Palin sign :lol
 
Cooter said:
I disagree. The closer we get the numbers are really pointing torwards a huge dem sweep in congress. I think he could do some damage with it.
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19 days left, no more debates, and his campaign is generally a mess that has trouble staying on message. Nothing I've seen leads me to believe he can focus on this sole issue and hammer it over and over and over and ride it to victory.
 
I can understand fears about supermajority and such, but really, Republicans only have themselves to blame for forfeiting the middle to Democrats. Sane vs Crazy shouldn't be a close, balanced contest. Instead of arguing to keep crazies in, maybe Republicans should revive intellectual conservatism and expand their coalition outside the fundie circuit.

The flip side is how Obama, Dean, and such are expanding their coalitions and also putting to rest the previous generation of liberalism that ended up controlled the part only through reaction until recently. Party of ideas, and such.
 
knitoe said:
Who's talking about "entire energy infrastructure change", but there should be way to measure we are doing something, whether it be 1%, 3%, 5%, 10% and so on. It's great they got "vague 10 year wish plan," but they might not make it pass 4 years let along 8.
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What's the point of that question, though? Either you blatantly lie or you give an honest answer like 4 percent and get crucified (especially if your opponent has no scruples and is willing to sell the "Chocolate Fudge Diet."

Even that theoretically awesome plan that would get us energy dependent in 10 years would require a huge ramp up that would only begin making a dent in four years time. I agree, if it's gonna be completely scrapped by the next administration, it'll never get done. But one would assume a great plan would transcend politics to some degree.
 
McCains crowd are so stupid. They are cheering when he said killing small businesses.
Cooter said:
Not even. A filabuster proof senate was something the GOP never had and should scare the living shit out of any reasonable voter. I think it would play to the center very well.
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This is a change election. If McCain had picked Lieberman he could play the center. People see Palin just sitting behind McCain and they get scared. They are more scared of that that a democratic majority.
 
Hitokage said:
That's anthropology. Both are intensely fascinating fields though!
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anthropology: the science that deals with the origins, physical and cultural development, biological characteristics, and social customs and beliefs of humankind

psychology: the science of the mind or of mental states and processes.

While 'human nature' may not be the most accurate term... I most definetly meant psychology.

Although I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better term?
 
Cooter said:
I disagree. The closer we get the numbers are really pointing torwards a huge dem sweep in congress. I think he could do some damage with it.
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Not really. Most people would vote for their domestic pets over the GOP if they had the chance. Instead, they'll be voting for the opposition, which in this case happens to be anyone with a (D) next to their name.
 
Let's ask GAF. Even if you're an Obama supporter how do feel with the likely possibility of a super majority?
 
JayDubya said:
How is that "utopian?"

I'm simply saying that when a legal document is signed and approved, it should be adhered to as written as long as it is recognized by all parties; there's a procedure previously agreed upon by those parties that allows for changing the document, and it should be used when people want to alter the terms of the document.

Whether we'll talking about states or individuals, that holds true.

Utopian would suggest that rigid adherence to the Constitution would make a perfect world.
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Well, utopian might be the wrong word. Overly idealistic is probably a better way to describe it.

As far as I am concerned, the biggest issues I have with the government (and that everybody should) are not with interpretation of the Constitution, or the two-party-system, or the balance between the branches of government-- it's that the system has been around long enough to be thoroughly gamed, and there isn't anybody running on a platform of changing the rules of that game.

Moneyed interests have to much control over the system, and by and large our government is which of two groups policymakers get to take advantage of it while promoting some basic policy and legal changes to make their public voting bases happy enough to not notice the money changing hands.
 
Hitokage said:
I can understand fears about supermajority and such, but really, Republicans only have themselves to blame for forfeiting the middle to Democrats. Sane vs Crazy shouldn't be a close, balanced contest. Instead of arguing to keep crazies in, maybe Republicans should revive intellectual conservatism and expand their coalition outside the fundie circuit.
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Point being is you're trading one for the other.

It's not going to benefit anyone as it's still going to be a majority doing whatever the F they want.
 
JayDubya said:
My field is not law, if my numerous posts in science / health related subject matters haven't clued you in. And that's all I'm saying. My business is my business.

"4) Why should we believe your interpretation of law if you have not accomplished 1-3?"

I don't get into the nitty gritty of legal interpretation. I'm concerned with the constitution and how its been abused and ignored by our political parties over the years. Obama is no doubt an expert regarding the status quo that I despise.

One doesn't need to spend 3 years in law school to know history and politics and theories of governance, or to understand the basic principle that the Constitution "as interpreted" is not the Constitution "as ratified," or that there is an amendment process for a logical and straightforward reason, or that the 10th Amendment fucking exists, is not remotely ambiguous in its wording, and was most certainly ratified.
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You know what fuck this shit. The constitution wasn't ratified by the current generation. I agree with Thomas Jefferson; there should be a revolution every twenty years. :D
 
WaltJay said:
Is McCain kicking Palin to the curb? McCain/Plumber '08?

I don't think he wants to hit the campaign trail with you, John! :lol
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I would :lol

Even if the chances of Obama winning would go down, I'd rather have a situation where if McCain wins and dies, we would have Joe the Plumber as president instead of Sarah Palin.
 
There's no way Joe was a plant, it's just too stupid. This guy had a moment with Obama that McCain thought he coudl sue but they never bothered to check into the guy's background at all, stupid as hell. So it now looks like he IS related to Keating and has a number of other issues that make him worse for the campaign. McCain pushing a bad idea over and over is really the theme of his Campaign.
 
Cooter said:
Let's ask GAF. Even if you're an Obama supporter how do feel with the likely possibility of a super majority?
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I say game on, and about time. The difficult part is utilizing the supermajority to ensure a Democratic resurgence. It's going to be tough because I can easily see a lot of factions developing within the Democratic caucus, but if Obama can swiftly pass some needed legislation on healthcare, energy, and pull our troops out of Iraq in a reasonable fashion, then I suspect a lot of republican leaning independents who voted for Obama out of disgust over the GOP will become firm and reliable Democrats.
 
Ok, does everyone understand the difference between 55 senators being of one party and 60? Serious question.
 
so yeah the rumors of Bachmann in trouble are true:

MN-06

El Tinklenberg (D): 38
Michele Bachmann (R-inc): 42
Undecided: 15
(MoE: ±4.9%)

Note that Michele Bachmann is that fundie monster lady who shilled for Palin endlessly on the networks during the RNC. Here's hoping that a surge in DFL turnout in Minnesota will wash her away for good, she's such bad news.
 
Hitokage said:
I can understand fears about supermajority and such, but really, Republicans only have themselves to blame for forfeiting the middle to Democrats. Sane vs Crazy shouldn't be a close, balanced contest. Instead of arguing to keep crazies in, maybe Republicans should revive intellectual conservatism and expand their coalition outside the fundie circuit.
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Both sides really need to disenfranchise the crazies.

Because unfortunately, the crazies and the smarts are mutually incompatible on a lot of platforms and positions.

They can fight among a overall population, but get a lot more achieved.
 
PrivateWHudson said:
I can't watch the video at work, but I'm pretty sure Obama is the one that said revenue. I'm not saying that Obama doesn't know his own policy, but at the debate, he should have set the record straight instead of throwing out percentages.

Instead of saying that 95% of small businesses fall under the $250K threshold, he should have made it clear that the increase is only on profit after all salaries (including the owner's) and all other expenses are paid which would make it nearly impossible for it to effect mom and pop small businesses, including Joe's Plumbing.
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I agree. Obama pissed me off last night by not mentioning that VERY VERY important point.
 
Cooter said:
Ok, does everyone understand the difference between 55 senators being of one party and 60? Serious question.
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Sane people running the show. We've had supermajorities before, the nation didn't end.

Dems would get it in 2010 no matter what anyway.
 
Cooter said:
Let's ask GAF. Even if you're an Obama supporter how do feel with the likely possibility of a super majority?
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great actually. For better of worse, it will put the fewest obstacles between Obama and what he's been saying he wants to accomplish.
 
VictimOfGrief said:
Point being is you're trading one for the other.

It's not going to benefit anyone as it's still going to be a majority doing whatever the F they want.
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Yeah, well, forgive me if I don't care if the Dick Cheneys of the world wallow in irrelevance and powerlessness.
 
Cooter said:
Let's ask GAF. Even if you're an Obama supporter how do feel with the likely possibility of a super majority?
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A necessary evil, bittersweet and immaturely satisfying, ying to the yang.

Neither a super majority or a deadlocked, impotent government is ideal, but when it's the choice between one or the other? - Super majority on the left, deadlock for the right :P
 
Cooter said:
Ok, does everyone understand the difference between 55 senators being of one party and 60? Serious question.
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Golly, no! Tell us, professor Cooter! What is with disgruntled Republicans suddenly becoming champions of fractured government?
 
Cooter said:
Let's ask GAF. Even if you're an Obama supporter how do feel with the likely possibility of a super majority?
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I dunno enough about what a super majority would mean under Dems to be honest. What are the potential land mines you see being pushed upon us? Liberal judges? More spending on social programs? I generally agree that a hive-mind ain't a good thing though.
 
Cooter said:
Ok, does everyone understand the difference between 55 senators being of one party and 60? Serious question.
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Yeah it means Obama and the Dems have n even easier time to get their legislation through. If they totally screw the pooch then they'll just be ousted in 2-4 years like the Reps were. I don't see a big problem.
 
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