PoliGAF Debate #3 Thread of Hey Joe, where you goin' with that plunger in your hand

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reilo said:
"Obama didn't win Joe the Plumber over. Is that a bigger systematic problem for Obama and his inability to win over white, middle-class voters in those swing-states?"

Hey media: Fuck you.
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Hes not middle class.
 
Fragamemnon said:
DOW/Nikkei tanking has a lot less to do with the "financial crisis" as it does with the fact that consumer spending and manufacturing numbers have been absolutely terrible for a while now. That's something that was happened before Lehman went under, triggering the huge LIBOR rates and TED spreads that showed that the credit market was seizing.

at least that's my understanding of things from reading some posters at CR
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I think for a lot of people, Lehman going down and this subsequent credit freeze has just made the crisis we were already in tangible to the American people.

Shit should have been taken care of years ago. I keep telling everyone who will listen that the Republican free market ideals generally work but require common sense regulation. But an equally big problem other than deregulation is this perpetual pushing back of a real recession by the people in power. If Greenspan, Bush and their lot had let the market tank after the 2002 recession instead of reducing interest rates and propping up the economy ala "Weekend at Bernie's," then non-stock market savings would have continued to be encouraged (because of decent interest rates) and we wouldn't have had the housing bubble.

You can't be a free marketeer only when the market's heading up. You have to be consistent when it's going down too. They completely failed their own ideology.
 
CharlieDigital said:
Taxes are always applied to net income after deductions (expenses, wages, etc).

The 39% would only be applied to any money he earns above $250,000. So if he makes a net profit of $250,001, the 39% would only be applied to the $1 above $250,000.

As I posted previously:

And yeah, the media does a great disservice to the public by not explaining how the progressive tax brackets work. "Punishing success" is so far from the truth, I don't understand how people even use that argument against a higher top tier tax bracket. No person becomes wealthy in a vacuum; each business needs well educated and well trained employees via the public education system. Each business needs a base of customers who can pay for the services or goods and for this you need a strong middle class. Each business needs infrastructure like roads, trains and bridges so that it can attract talented individuals no matter where they live in respect to the business.

People who make more rightly have a greater responsibility to feed into the system since they reap the biggest benefit from government spending indirectly.
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Thank you sir. I didn't realize until I was watching Morning Joe today how many people are confused (or pretending to be confused) about that. As long as business owners are doing what McCain claims they will be doing (creating jobs and reinvesting in their businesses) they shouldn't have anything to fear from Obama's tax policies. The only ones with something to fear are the one's who wanted to add a pool cabana onto their McMansions with their extra earnings.
 
CharlieDigital said:
Taxes are always applied to net income after deductions (expenses, wages, etc).

The 39% would only be applied to any money he earns above $250,000. So if he makes a net profit of $250,001, the 39% would only be applied to the $1 above $250,000.

As I posted previously:

And yeah, the media does a great disservice to the public by not explaining how the progressive tax brackets work. "Punishing success" is so far from the truth, I don't understand how people even use that argument against a higher top tier tax bracket. No person becomes wealthy in a vacuum; each business needs well educated and well trained employees via the public education system. Each business needs a base of customers who can pay for the services or goods and for this you need a strong middle class. Each business needs infrastructure like roads, trains and bridges so that it can attract talented individuals no matter where they live in respect to the business.

People who make more rightly have a greater responsibility to feed into the system since they reap the biggest benefit from government spending indirectly.
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Charlie, I agree with you're point about the progressive tax, but what I'm really getting at is that Obama flubbed when talking about his own policy, and this flub leads to everyone thinking that any small business with revenue of >$250K will be affected.

The chance that Joe's plumbing will ever PROFIT >$250K is just ridiculous. At some point, he may turn a profit, but Joe's Plumbing will probably increase Joe's salary, his employee's salary, upgrade facilities, buy new tools...ect.

I think it's a shame that no-one (Obama, McCain, or Joe) realizes this.
 
Tobor said:
WHY CANT OBAMA CLOSE THE DEAL??
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If (more like when at this point -- am I right!?) Obama wins, do you think this will be a narrative on November 5th? "Sure, he won. But why couldn't he win with a bigger margin? He's really going to have his work cut out for him in 2012 if he can't convince these working-class white voters throughout the next four years."
 
Ventron said:
That's true, yes...

I'm just concerned whether the media or Obama supporters will try to dig up dirt on this guy and make it public. I hope they're not going to ruin this guy's life all in the name of slightly hurting McCain's debate rhetoric. If so, they're no better than Scientologists.
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That would be an EXTREMELY stupid thing for them to do, and its quite the trap if they do so.
 
20k6cdc.jpg
 
Why did all those people that wanted McCain to go on the attack believe that Obama would just sit back and take all the bullshit and not fight back?

Did his advisers really think that Obama - after debating for over 45 times against much more eloquent and tougher debaters with the likes of Hillary Clinton - was really just going to go, "oh shucks, I can't defend myself now against baseless and unfound accusations!"??
 
Did anyone notice Romney rushing up to the stage to give McCain a thumbs up immediate following the debate?

Is Mittens some puppet adviser we don't know about?
 
It's pretty bad when even campaign's own focus group didn't yield any positive results

*** The McCain camp’s memo: So what did a Minnesota focus group of voters -- that McCain’s campaign conducted regarding last night’s debate -- say? Well, NBC News has obtained a strategy memo about the findings (some good, some bad, and some obvious). One conclusion from it on health care is an excellent example of how Obama has just dominated an issue that has flown under the media's radar: The respondents believed Obama's interpretation of McCain's health care plan more so than McCain’s interpretation. And that’s not a good sign when your opponent has framed your health care plan for you -- but that's exactly what's happened. Other intel the McCain camp received from their dial test: Joe the plumber didn't play as well as hoped (same in media focus groups); Obama successfully deflected Ayers, and there now might not be enough time to fully prosecute the associations strategy.” In the final analysis, the campaign is being advised that Obama's experience and readiness is still something that can be exploited by McCain.
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lawblob said:
He should have thought about that before wagging his tongue all over the place like Michael Jordan.
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Since it got stuck on bottom of last page...



You guys are too hard on McCain.

s6qir4.jpg


He's obviously about to dive and try to save Obama from the sock puppet that's going for his crotch.
 
PrivateWHudson said:
The chance that Joe's plumbing will ever PROFIT >$250K is just ridiculous. At some point, he may turn a profit, but Joe's Plumbing will probably increase Joe's salary, his employee's salary, upgrade facilities, buy new tools...ect.
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Furthermore, if he can claim taxable income over $250K with a plumbing business and a *good* accountant, then to be honest he's doing really well for himself and would properly fall into that "5%" hole of small businesses that Obama talks about that will get a tax increase. Making so much money that you have to claim above that amount with a good accountant as a small business is exceedingly rare, thanks to the many tax breaks in place.
 
Sleeker said:
Hillary Clinton watching 3rd Debate:

slide_441_10826_large.jpg


That woman is always right near her.
Has anyone heard the rumors of hil being a closeted lesbian?
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I'm not sure, but that woman is fucking hot.

Oh, and..

In the final analysis, the campaign is being advised that Obama's experience and readiness is still something that can be exploited by McCain.
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:lol :lol :lol
 
lawblob said:
Did anyone notice Romney rushing up to the stage to give McCain a thumbs up immediate following the debate?

Is Mittens some puppet adviser we don't know about?
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I think he's an economic adviser isn't he? I don't think there is any secret about him having some role in the campaign.
 
Fragamemnon said:
Furthermore, if he can claim taxable income over $250K with a plumbing business and a *good* accountant, then to be honest he's doing really well for himself and would properly fall into that "5%" hole of small businesses that Obama talks about that will get a tax increase. Making so much money that you have to claim above that amount with a good accountant as a small business is exceedingly rare, thanks to the many tax breaks in place.
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$250K/yr in PROFITS could afford you quite a nice home in Malibu and a nice two-seater to boot. SHIT.
 
reilo said:
Why did all those people that wanted McCain to go on the attack believe that Obama would just sit back and take all the bullshit and not fight back?

Did his advisers really think that Obama - after debating for over 45 times against much more eloquent and tougher debaters with the likes of Hillary Clinton - was really just going to go, "oh shucks, I can't defend myself now against baseless and unfound accusations!"??
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I think the belief was simply that the right believes there's substance to these attacks, and that they haven't achieved mainstream scrutiny, and by McCain himself slinging the mud, it will raise doubts about Obama -- regardless of the validity of the claims. Unfortunately for them, though, they don't seem to realize the precarious position they're in. First of all, the attacks aren't as substantive as they've deluded themselves into believing. Second of all, McCain's negative numbers are too high for people to hear this stuff and suddenly think that this dubious attack is more important than the economy.
 
Fragamemnon said:
I think the key will be for the Democrats to work the middle ground as the rule, and only do the party line stuff in the case where the GOP really is impossible to work with (I expect taxes, labor, and health care to be the big party line votes early on. The EFCA in particular is going to have conservatives howling in terror.).
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Well, the Dems (Obama specifically) are going to need a super majority if they want to exact real change. Otherwise, they will fall into the same trap as Clinton. He was able to pass many superficial changes, but ultimately failed on the bigger things he wanted to accomplish.

--- ---

I'm confused on this Joe the Plumber shit. Did he own a business that he purchased for 250k? Have a business that had revenues of 250k or profitted 250k annually? Because all three are vastly different
 
What would be the marginal tax rate for 39%? I'm trying to figure out the average tax rate if Joe made, let's say $270,000.

EDIT-I mean what would the income be at 39%?
 
PrivateWHudson said:
Charlie, I agree with you're point about the progressive tax, but what I'm really getting at is that Obama flubbed when talking about his own policy, and this flub leads to everyone thinking that any small business with revenue of >$250K will be affected.

The chance that Joe's plumbing will ever PROFIT >$250K is just ridiculous. At some point, he may turn a profit, but Joe's Plumbing will probably increase Joe's salary, his employee's salary, upgrade facilities, buy new tools...ect.

I think it's a shame that no-one (Obama, McCain, or Joe) realizes this.
Click to expand...

Well, it's hard to gauge whether Obama does or not since he was working with Joe on a pure numbers perspective. If Joe is asking about taxes for those making above $250,000, the assumption is that he's talking about net profits since asking a tax question using gross profits makes no sense as there are any variable number of deductions which need to be made; in essence, if the discussion was based on gross profit, no one would be able to answer the question of "What does it mean for me?" since it doesn't take into account capital expenditures.
 
Let's do some quick math:

$250,000 profits per year.

$100,000 per year for your home including financing [over 30 years, that's a $3mil home!].

$25,000 per year for car payments including financing [over 4 years, that's a $100k car!].

That leaves you with: $125,000/yr or $10,400/mo in money to spend on whatever the hell you want. The average American probably makes $10,000 over a period of 6 months.

Dude. I want to be able to make $250,000 in profits a year.
 
ToxicAdam said:
I'm confused on this Joe the Plumber shit. Did he own a business that he purchased for 250k? Have a business that had revenues of 250k or profitted 250k annually? Because all three are vastly different
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My understanding is that he wanted to buy the company he worked for at a value over 250K, and that the business had revenues or planned revenues over 250k, but that really there was no way it was going to pull in a profit of over 250k a year.

So Joe is just another man from Toledo that doesn't get taxes. Actually, Joe has some tax issues in general:

"According to Lucas County, Ohio court records Samuel J. Wurzelbacher lives at 355 Shrewsbury Street. The state of Ohio took out a judgment against him for $1,182.98 in unpaid income taxes on 2007. Samuel J. Wurzelbacher also was involved in divorce proceedings in 2006 (with the Holland address) and previously in 1997, when he had an Arizona address."
 
Fragamemnon said:
My understanding is that he wanted to buy the company he worked for at a value over 250K, and that the business had revenues or planned revenues over 250k, but that really there was no way it was going to pull in a profit of over 250k a year.

So Joe is just another man from Toledo that doesn't get taxes. Actually, Joe has some tax issues in general:

"According to Lucas County, Ohio court records Samuel J. Wurzelbacher lives at 355 Shrewsbury Street. The state of Ohio took out a judgment against him for $1,182.98 in unpaid income taxes on 2007. Samuel J. Wurzelbacher also was involved in divorce proceedings in 2006 (with the Holland address) and previously in 1997, when he had an Arizona address."
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Sam Wurzelbacher != Joe Wurzelbacher.

Holy shit. Joe the plumber is a right-winger at full force. He supports the Iraq war. He believes it kept us safe!

Yeah, Joe, time for you to exit the stage to the left. Thanks for playing!
 
MrHicks said:
why are americans so angry at taxes?
the country is going bankrupt with massive debts and they wanna LOWER taxes?

a country needs money to survive
if you live in a country and enjoy all its benefits pay your fair share or GTFO
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Obama tried to mention this during the debate, and McCain blurted over him (about raising taxes for anyone at all) "WELL IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IT WHY DO IT" and followed with his creepy little laugh.
 
ToxicAdam said:
Now you know how people who are right-leaning feel when they post in this thread.
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Hmm. I dunno. People like yourself and Guileless more than hold your own here. I think it's when right-leaning posters show up full of talking points and nothing else that it gets nasty.
 
:lol CNNs iReport thing just had an angry gay diva ranting about Joe the Plumber.

Joe the Plumber is not a friend to gay men, apparently.
 
CharlieDigital said:
Well, it's hard to gauge whether Obama does or not since he was working with Joe on a pure numbers perspective. If Joe is asking about taxes for those making above $250,000, the assumption is that he's talking about net profits since asking a tax question using gross profits makes no sense as there are any variable number of deductions which need to be made; in essence, if the discussion was based on gross profit, no one would be able to answer the question of "What does it mean for me?" since it doesn't take into account capital expenditures.
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I watched the video, and Obama said "an increase on REVENUE over $250K". Listening to people's reactions, everyone thinks that every little business with a couple of employees just like Joe's Plumbing will be affected.

I heard some lady on Sean Hannity call in and said that her business makes over $250K, but after all of the expenses, it only makes enough for the business to pay her $40K/year, and wants to know why Obama wants to punish her.
 
Red Blaster said:
Listening to Joe The Plumber on MSNBC. Guy's borderline retarded. "We brought freedom to Iraq! Freedom!"
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Since they started interviewing him, the Dow went from +70 to -40.
 
PrivateWHudson said:
I heard some lady on Sean Hannity call in and said that her business makes over $250K, but after all of the expenses, it only makes enough for the business to pay her $40K/year, and wants to know why Obama wants to punish her.
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:lol yeah, something doesn't compute here...

As for revenue, we'll have to see. It's clear that's not how the tax system works and I really doubt that anyone would think of taxing revenue. Circuit City was running a net loss forever; it makes no sense to tax a business that's running a net loss, regardless of revenue.
 
reilo said:
Let's do some quick math:

$250,000 profits per year.

$100,000 per year for your home including financing [over 30 years, that's a $3mil home!].

$25,000 per year for car payments including financing [over 4 years, that's a $100k car!].

That leaves you with: $125,000/yr or $10,400/mo in money to spend on whatever the hell you want. The average American probably makes $10,000 over a period of 6 months.

Dude. I want to be able to make $250,000 in profits a year.
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Reilo, you're still thinking about the person, and not the business. The business could pay the owner $250K/year and still not make a profit and not be affected by Obama's plan. It would only be businesses that have such excess profits that the business can't burn it off in salaries and expansion that it would have to just invest the profits.
 
Red Blaster said:
Listening to Joe The Plumber on MSNBC. Guy's borderline retarded. "We brought freedom to Iraq! Freedom!"
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I'm watching that interview.

Please, please turn away from your TVs foreigners.

Most embarrassing driveway press conference since T.O.
 
So how much of Joe's business will be taxed if he's making $270,000 and the marginal tax rate is 35%? I have a number, but I'll keep it to myself until you guys say something. :lol

EDIT-Or is it 33%?
 
PrivateWHudson said:
Reilo, you're still thinking about the person, and not the business. The business could pay the owner $250K/year and still not make a profit and not be affected by Obama's plan. It would only be businesses that have such excess profits that the business can't burn it off in salaries and expansion that it would have to just invest the profits.
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No. I'm thinking PROFITS after the business has paid off all their expenses. You're thinking REVENUE.

Obama wants to tax PROFITS, not REVENUE.
 
Ouch.

Dow -170.
Soybean said:
Why aren't we exploding over the Rasmussen numbers. They must've leaked last night I guess.
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Because Rasmussen's party ID system is whacked and they're using numbers too close to 2004?
 
PrivateWHudson said:
I heard some lady on Sean Hannity call in and said that her business makes over $250K, but after all of the expenses, it only makes enough for the business to pay her $40K/year, and wants to know why Obama wants to punish her.
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:lol
 
Morning Call PA tracker has Obama up by 16% today, this is so not a battleground state

Philadelphia fed index also down sharply today, which just about seals a blowout in PA
 
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