PoliGAF Debate #3 Thread of Hey Joe, where you goin' with that plunger in your hand

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AniHawk said:
Democrats had the majority in the House though. Wasn't 2002 more similar to this?
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2002 was nothing compared to what is about to happen to the GOP. Only a few seats in the Senate flipped to the GOP (resulting in a majority status), and that was after a demagogic campaign based around the Iraq War and 9/11 had sucked all the oxygen out of the room. Their gains in the House were pretty marginal, only +8.
 
ryutaro's mama said:
Mayans say that's doubtful.
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But if 2012 turns into the next Y2K, you better pray that the dems are in a good position. If they don't deliver on the economy we may see a lasting conservative majority.
 
Tamanon said:
wat? Where is that from? And.....how does that help at all?
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Well, once they register their email addresses, there would be absolutely no way to get another email address, so they would.../blinks
 
electricpirate said:
re: taxes for small businesses.

Some small businesses file all their income under their owner's income. In these cases they would fall under Obama's tax increases.

mAcodin, get your talking points strait ;) http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/mccains_small-business_bunk.html
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I don't have talking points.

I'm just saying that looking at a small business owner and his business as a separate entity is misleading, because no matter which receives the "fine," assuming it qualifies, it is still money that the small business owner is out.
 
Maxwell House said:
favv43.jpg
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:lol

THANK YOU!
 
mAcOdIn said:
I don't have talking points.

I'm just saying that looking at a small business owner and his business as a separate entity is misleading, because no matter which receives the "fine," assuming it qualifies, it is still money that the small business owner is out.
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But you've made a weird assumption here that business taxes are also being raised on his company.
 
Joe is full of shit. :lol

For fun I looked up how much a plumbing business cost in ohio.

http://www.bizquest.com/buy/899590.html?i=2&l=S37&k=plumbing&p=20&z=1&tl=1&ln=1

Asking Price: $299,000
Gross Revenue: $496,552
Cash Flow: $105,697
Inventory: $60,000 (Included in Asking Price)
FF&E: $85,000 (Included in Asking Price)
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A plumbing company that makes 105k a year and would not see any tax increase at all cost $299,000... one that made over 250k profit would be much more expensive. Joe's question was purely hypothetical.

COURIC: Well, he supposedly will raise taxes only on people who make over $250,000 a year. Would you be in that category?

WURZELBACHER: Not right now at presently, but, you know, question, so he's going to do that now for people who make $250,000 a year. When's he going to decide that $100,000 is too much, you know? I mean, you're on a slippery slope here. You vote on somebody who decides that $250,000 and you're rich? And $100,000 and you're rich? I mean, where does it end? You know, that's - people got to ask that question.
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:lol
 
mAcOdIn said:
I don't have talking points.

I'm just saying that looking at a small business owner and his business as a separate entity is misleading, because no matter which receives the "fine," assuming it qualifies, it is still money that the small business owner is out.
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Balance a 3% marginal tax increase on net income over $250k against the rest of Obama's proposals (healthcare credits, capital gains cuts for small businesses). This is pretty small stuff in the broad scheme of things. A very small number of "small" businesses would see a very small tax increase.
 
Here is why John McCain lost this debate . . . he is living in the right-wing echo chamber.

While Barack Obama worked hard at securing the trust and votes of middle-of-the-road independents, McCain was throwing out red meat for his right-wing base: Ayers, "pro-abortion people", vouchers voucher vouchers, etc.

Although McCain said lots of stuff that probably made the GOP-right happy, he just lost his last big chance to speak to the nation as a whole. And he came off as 'Grumpy McNasty'.

It would have been a decent performance in a GOP primary, but in a general election debate it fell flat.
 
Well joining the convo late.. But ill just say this..

McCains downfall in this debate was 1 word.. Ayers

He brought it up in such a weird way, and it seemed forced. Not to mention that just previously he had gotten all angry with the Lewis thing.
 
Incognito said:
Looks like Jonah Goldberg's Theorem of Obama UP Dow DOWN* is gonna have to be revised to include international markets, now.

*Glenn Greenwald's description of Goldberg's inane theories
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The Nikkei has been following the DOW lately. Sheep come in all colors.
 
I know the rule is hours old = has been posted, days old = posted to death and I did see some mention of furries and a white wolf(?) some pages back, but has PoliGAF already covered the republican furries acorn page?

if the October Surprise! ends up being secrets about nuts and sweating in fursuits then politics just humped the shark.
 
AniHawk said:
Democrats had the majority in the House though. Wasn't 2002 more similar to this?
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In 1980, Republicans gained a huge number of Senate (12) and House (34) seats on Reagan's coattails.

In 2008, it looks like Democrats will gain a huge number of Senate (8 or 9) and House (25+) seats on Obama's coattails.
 
besada said:
But you've made a weird assumption here that business taxes are also being raised on his company.
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I was responding to a question that said "The healthcare fine stuff would be on his company, assuming he has employees. " All I'm saying is that whether he is taxed directly or his business is taxed, it's still money he loses.

So while it may not be money out of his personal pocket, it does mean that he couldn't hire another person or offer as competitive a wage or buy new equipment etc. etc.

But it's all hypothetical anyways, whenever any kind of tax or fee is raised on business it usually gets passed on to us, whether that be through lower wages, job cuts, higher prices for services, taxes only move the goals around.
 
speculawyer said:
Here is why John McCain lost this debate . . . he is living in the right-wing echo chamber.
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He was squeezed. His base is unhappy with him (but very happy with Palin!) for not being aggressive in attacking The Great Dark Enemy and not being a champion of classic conservative positions. Moderates and independents were not happy with his demeanor and tenor of his campaign in the midst of such economic fear and chaos, nor have they bought in to any of his conservative ideas.

He's not a capable enough politican to serve both sides at once. I think after this debate you'll find his town hall and rally supporters even more hostile-not just to Obama, but to McCain himself. They are going to be SCREAMING for Reverend Wright.
 
HylianTom said:
They're going to need a Newt Gingrich-like figurehead to lead the charge in 2010 if they want to model their comeback after the 1994 midterms.
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And Sarah Palin is just the woman to do it.


Please, please, please!:D
 
So what are the odds that Obama's infomercial is him showing and saying "Hello America. Turns out I was a secret muslim arab hindu. I've exposed your next president John McCain as a shill who panders to the worst in humanity, a man without a clue how to solve the ills of the nation, and have done so using millions of dollars that you could have saved to burn in a fire to warm your soon to be starving families. Goodbye."
 
Vestal said:
Well joining the convo late.. But ill just say this..

McCains downfall in this debate was 1 word.. Ayers

He brought it up in such a weird way, and it seemed forced. Not to mention that just previously he had gotten all angry with the Lewis thing.
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I'm not going to say anything about Ayers but I must say that McCain sounded upset when he was talking about Lewis. I don't think angry is the right word. It was a weird transition though.
 
speculawyer said:
And Sarah Palin is just the woman to do it.


Please, please, please!:D
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The best part about Palin is that none of the rank and file movement conservative voices are blaming her for the campaign's collapse. Rush, Hannity, etc.-they are all still fawning over her while the moderate, DC-based intelligensia of the party recoil in horror at her.

She's delievering the red meat, hate, and lies every single day with a mendacity unmatched in modern presidential politics. She's the perfect fit to electrify the 30% or so movement conservative base, and they'll be enough to put her in good standing to win the GOP primary. Her main hurdle will be refining her credentials and building a donor and contact base in the key states (Iowa, SC, but not places like NH lolz) to pull something off.
 
Fragamemnon said:
The best part about Palin is that none of the rank and file movement conservative voices are blaming her for the campaign's collapse. Rush, Hannity, etc.-they are all still fawning over her while the moderate, DC-based intelligensia of the party recoil in horror at her.

She's delievering the red meat, hate, and lies every single day with a mendacity unmatched in modern presidential politics. She's the perfect fit to electrify the 30% or so movement conservative base, and they'll be enough to put her in good standing to win the GOP primary. Her main hurdle will be refining her credentials and building a donor and contact base in the key states (Iowa, SC, but not places like NH lolz) to pull something off.
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Palin 2012?
 
Fragamemnon said:
He was squeezed. His base is unhappy with him (but very happy with Palin!) for not being aggressive in attacking The Great Dark Enemy and not being a champion of classic conservative positions. Moderates and independents were not happy with his demeanor and tenor of his campaign in the midst of such economic fear and chaos, nor have they bought in to any of his conservative ideas.

He's not a capable enough politican to serve both sides at once. I think after this debate you'll find his town hall and rally supporters even more hostile-not just to Obama, but to McCain himself. They are going to be SCREAMING for Reverend Wright.
Click to expand...
People keep forgetting that every single card was stacked against the republican runner, no matter who it was. The numbers of registered party members that are constantly brought up in PoliGAF show the true political climate.

I think Hilary might of been able to pull off a win given the opportunity. Most people consider her a much more divisive candidate than Obama. That right there shows what the sentiment of America is. I'm not saying the republicans didn't have their chances but it was never a 50-50 shot.
 
devilhawk said:
I'm not going to say anything about Ayers but I must say that McCain sounded upset when he was talking about Lewis. I don't think angry is the right word. It was a weird transition though.
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It was weird, especially since Obama really hasn't taken the victim tone at all the past few months. It made McCain just appear weirdly weak.
 
Son of Godzilla said:
So what are the odds that Obama's infomercial is him showing and saying "Hello America. Turns out I was a secret muslim arab hindu. I've exposed your next president John McCain as a shill who panders to the worst in humanity, a man without a clue how to solve the ills of the nation, and have done so using millions of dollars that you could have saved to burn in a fire to warm your soon to be starving families. Goodbye."
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That wouldn't take 30 minutes.
 
Son of Godzilla said:
So what are the odds that Obama's infomercial is him showing and saying "Hello America. Turns out I was a secret muslim arab hindu. I've exposed your next president John McCain as a shill who panders to the worst in humanity, a man without a clue how to solve the ills of the nation, and have done so using millions of dollars that you could have saved to burn in a fire to warm your soon to be starving families. Goodbye."
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heh...how about he just comes out and says first thing he's doing as president is reparations for slavery and show how it's going to be:
http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=24406

That would make Republicans' head explode.
 
Old but great article btw

“If Republican politicians quote Reagan, their political operatives study Nixon,” Frum writes. “Republicans have been reprising Nixon’s 1972 campaign against McGovern for a third of a century. As the excesses of the 1960s have dwindled into history, however, the 1972 campaign has worked less and less well.” He adds, “How many more elections can conservatives win by campaigning against Abbie Hoffman and Bobby Seale? Voters want solutions to the problems of today.”
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Replace Seale and Hoffman with Wright and Ayers obviously and that is the exact blueprint.

Another great quote

“American conservatives had one defeat, in 2006, but it wasn’t a big one,” he said. “The big defeat is probably coming, and then the thinking will happen. I have not yet seen the major think tanks reorient themselves, and I don’t know if they can.” He added, “You go to Capitol Hill—Republican senators know they’re fucked. They have that sense. But they don’t know what to do. There’s a hunger for new policy ideas.”
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http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/26/080526fa_fact_packer?currentPage=1
 
Fragamemnon said:
The best part about Palin is that none of the rank and file movement conservative voices are blaming her for the campaign's collapse. Rush, Hannity, etc.-they are all still fawning over her while the moderate, DC-based intelligensia of the party recoil in horror at her.

She's delievering the red meat, hate, and lies every single day with a mendacity unmatched in modern presidential politics. She's the perfect fit to electrify the 30% or so movement conservative base, and they'll be enough to put her in good standing to win the GOP primary. Her main hurdle will be refining her credentials and building a donor and contact base in the key states (Iowa, SC, but not places like NH lolz) to pull something off.
Click to expand...

The portions of the Republican party I have great respect for still rally around Buckley Jr. and the ideologies he engendered; in his waning years, he began to express significant concern about the direction of the modern Republican party. It is safe to assume that Palin -- who has supported more governmental control of both our economy and particularly our culture -- would be diametrically opposed to Buckley if it weren't for their shared Christian origins.

If he hadn't been so deeply entrenched in the machine, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Buckley Jr. shed his mantle entirely and declare himself a permanent Libertarian, instead of an occasional one.
 
nbcjr said:
Palin 2012?
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Count on it, especially if Obama looks vulnerable. Huckabee wouldn't be able to raise money like Palin would because the monied interests of the party give him a big DO NOT WANT.gif, while they don't mind Palin since she's like Dubya and would let the nutter ideologues run the show.

People keep forgetting that every single card was stacked against the republican runner, no matter who it was. The numbers of registered party members that are constantly brought up in PoliGAF show the true political climate.
Click to expand...

This is, of course, true. I still think that McCain was a good candidate for the GOP, but his campaign did nothing to really separate themselves from Bush nor address the key issues of the election. Schmidt and co. have been absolutely terrible.

I think Hilary might of been able to pull off a win given the opportunity. Most people consider her a much more divisive candidate than Obama. That right there shows what the sentiment of America is. I'm not saying the republicans didn't have their chances but it was never a 50-50 shot.
Click to expand...

Hillary would have been divisive, but her electoral coalition would have been very, very strong and nearly impossible to beat, but it would look very different than Obama's map does.
 
Chuck Todd's take on the debate:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/

Time and again Wednesday, Obama went out of his way to find a center-right watch word or phrase (tax cuts, life, responsibility, charter schools, tort reform) to defend himself or make a point. McCain spent a lot of time talking to his current supporters, I didn't hear him making a move to the middle on many issues. It's as if both candidates were trying to win Indiana or West Virginia tonight, that's not good for McCain.

And the tax conversation may be one of the bigger misreads of this debate season. Taxes and spending are way down the list of issue importance in current polls. Sure, McCain's on the right side of the issue, it's just not a priority with voters right now and I think some may struggle connecting taxes to the current economic problems, particularly since taxes are relatively low.

As for the big pic, it's hard to see how this debate changed the trajectory of this race. It's now clear, for posterity, that Obama won the debate season. McCain won the convention season and that got him in the game, but the combination of the massive economic downturn with the debates has put McCain in as deep of a hole as any nominee has been this late in the process since Bob Dole. The map continues to look more favorable to Obama than McCain. But it's now in the hands of the voters. There's not much more information left to learn.
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Interesting. I wonder if he'll be willing to move those markers on his magic map in the morning.. :lol
 
Fragamemnon said:
Hillary would have been divisive, but her electoral coalition would have been very, very strong and nearly impossible to beat, but it would look very different than Obama's map does.
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I think Hillary's map would've looked a bit more like Kerry or Gore's map. Ohio and maybe Florida probably would've been a bit easier.

Then again, who would McCain have picked had she been the nominee? I don't see Palin getting the VP nod if Hillary had been the nominee.

(edit: sorry for the double-post) :P
 
HylianTom said:
I wonder if Huckabee will run again. Would he divide the fundie vote with her, allowing another "moderate" to escape with the nomination?
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I wish Huckabee would magically turn into a liberal. There is something I really like about that man even though I disagree about him on almost every issue.
 
HylianTom said:
I think Hillary's map would've looked a bit more like Kerry or Gore's map. Ohio and maybe Florida probably would've been a bit easier.

Then again, who would McCain have picked had she been the nominee? I don't see Palin getting the VP nod if Hillary had been the nominee.

(edit: sorry for the double-post) :P
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I think Hillary would have lead to a better VP choice for McCain. I think just the fact that Hilary was running would have fired up the social conservatives. McCain could have picked a moderate VP and this election would look entirely different.
 
speculawyer said:
Here is why John McCain lost this debate . . . he is living in the right-wing echo chamber.
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Bingo!

His Faux outrage over the John Lewis fell completely flat. McCain's repeated demands that Obama apologize for John Lewis came off as completely petty. No one cares. Same thing with Bills Ayers. McCain didn't make the case how Ayers is really relevant at all with what our country is dealing with. He brought up Acorn but didn't really explain the backstory and how it really damns Obama.

It seemed McCain was trying to appease the base instead of going after Independents.

Finally, McCain was extremely weak on Healthcare and Education. McCain kept saying, "We need this, we need that..." but he never explained how his plans actually accomplished those things. Obama on the other hand gave some specific proposals how he would make college and healthcare more affordable. He sounded like he actually had a plan instead of stating with a bunch of platitudes.
 
HylianTom said:
I think Hillary's map would've looked a bit more like Kerry or Gore's map. Ohio and maybe Florida probably would've been a bit easier.

(edit: sorry for the double-post) :P
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Hillary would have been Kerry + AR + FL + OH + WV , and made a hard attempt to swing NV, KY, and MO.

Colorado, VA, and NC wouldn't have been in contention. I think that Obama's pushing of these states is more important to Democrats in the long run than Hillary reasserting the Appalachians and Midwest, which would just be likely to swing again later on.
 
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