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Politico: Inside the bitter last days of Bernie's revolution
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kitschykitty
Member
What goal post did I move? I first responded to you in your claim he wasn't coddled and after that your arguement he wasn't attacked with kid's gloves, I proved both those wrong with the article you posted.
Sanders at this point has more experience in the Senate than Clinton has. This of course ignores his time in Congress, or his actual record in Washington which - at this point - only you have described as being "on the sideline."
And - since you seem to have completely and spectacularly forgotten - your original argument was that tax returns were of more relevance to a voter than paid comments to US financial leaders. You (wrongly) made the argument that this was an issue for Richard Nixon's candidacy and that his infamous "I am not a crook" line is in relation to that, and you wrongly state that Ford started the "tradition" of candidates releasing their records (he didn't).
Finally, it takes all of a few seconds to Google exactly what a circular argument is; I even gave one for you. And no, your example is not a circular argument, nor is it what I (and other) have put forth. It's just some gooblegook nonsense. Hillary Clinton has a perception of trust and genuineness issue for a number of reasons, not the least of which is an insistence on not officially releasing transcripts from her paid speeches to Goldman Sachs, speeches which some have described as fluff as best, cheerleading at worst.
If you are going to pillory someone for their positions at least have the courtesy to actual know what you're talking about.
LUFTRAUSER
Banned
CharminUltra
Member
Hillary strangled a baby on live television and is now on the run.
Bernie won the nomination by default.
Sanders' record in Washington is far from stellar give the amount of time he has been there.
Kid gloves is definitely an understatement. An organization states that they will endorse someone else. Not even insulting Sanders in anyway, just putting their endorsement behind another candidate, and he takes that as the worst kind of insult and throws them under the bus. As old as he is, and he can't handle anything not going exactly his way. Just for that. Imagine if he were truly attacked like Obama or like Clinton, because they have been through The Shit (tm), and somehow have mananged to not lash out like petulant children.
The only one more coddled than him was Palin at the VP debate vs Biden. How is this even up for debate.
The only one more coddled than him was Palin at the VP debate vs Biden. How is this even up for debate.
No, your response was that he wasn't hit as hard as Clinton. Which no one, at all, has argued. And I never have never argued the phrase "kid gloves" in one way or another, so I'm not exactly sure where you're pulling that from.
Did you not see what I just posted? He hasn't been attacked on any of his real skeletons in the closet. Not being hit anywhere near as hard as Hillary has is pretty much being treating with kid gloves, dude has gotten to as close to a free pass as possible until his campaign shit the bed, and even then the press has been pretty light on him. Hell, has anyone even brought up his tax plan to make his ideas function and how it could possibly kill the middle class if not implemented correctly (other than the Vox article obviously, but that was on the forefront for like a second!) ? Or is his response going to be his too busy to figure it out because he's currently running for president? I just want to be honest here, compared to the shit others have dealt with, he's been treated like a king.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Yeah, he really lost me the last couple of months. I really thought he was doing a service of maybe pulling Hillary farther left, but then I realized he didn't intend on stopping until the pull derailed the whole train. At some point it began to feel like he lost the plot in pursuit of his goals.
Nope. Hello there.
Why does any candidate need to be necessarily "attacked?"
A statement that is simply not supported. Again no one has said he was under as much scrutiny as Clinton; however this suggestion that Sanders has just skated through is just stupid and needs to die.
"Kill the middle class" - who has suggested that? And Sanders has been asked many times how he would pay for his tax plan. You may not like his math, but to suggest he hasn't been called on it is false.
Because until you are, no one will know how you'll handle it or how the public will react.
Obama making it through Hillary's '08 campaign against him assuaged a lot of people's fears going into the general.
The problem is that GOPers don't like attacking their candidates from the left, and Dems don't like attacking from the right. In addition to kid gloves, Clinton didn't have the ability to blast Sanders for stupid lefty BS just as Trump can't be blasted for racism by the right.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Because the idea that Sanders is more favored than Clinton is predicated on the idea that they've been scrutinized equally, and they haven't. That's why its crazy to say "Sanders has higher favorables" or whatever, we have no idea how badly his numbers would actually drop in the general when the GOP starts taking fire at him for the first time
Because that's what the republicans do, they attack you on your skeletons. I mean, just take a look at how Kerry got buried under the Cheney machine.
As a CPA I don't like the math lol. There are no considerations for what the actual cost of his plans are and the impact it would have. In addition we have no idea if the cost savings would "trickle down" to the employees as most companies are looking for maxium shareholder value. And a tax on Wall Street speculation, willl that really be enough? In addition to actual math and well really, accounting and finance math, the monetary impacts could be devastating if as I said earlier, this is not done properly and if his campaign is anything to go by... Good luck on the math. Anyway, this is a bit off topic to the point. The point being, nobody is scrutinizing his points and his history in a way that would actually be hot political fire.
BlastProcessing
Member
See this might be the heart of our misunderstanding, I said that tax records are precedent and they are precedent for a reason. Speech transcripts have never been a precedent. Precedent matters.
Sanders has been an outsider, a true independent for almost all of his time in Congress. He hasn't accomplished much at all other than remaining a couple of post offices. He then switched political parties at the exact moment where it was beneficial for him to do so.
You keep talking past me and accusing me of talking past you. I think anyone who has read our exchange can draw their own conclusions. I am fine with letting you have the last word on the matter.
Yes facts. Im open to being proven wrong but this looks odd. It has Rubio getting more press than even Trump and that just doesn't pass the smell test. It IS data though, instead of gut instinct, so I can't disprove it, I'll give you that.
I should have kept reading before preparing the post but this makes more sense. Trump grabbed the press and ran with it. I doubt anyone got more coverage than he did. But to Las7's credit this chart does seem to prove that Bernie got fuck all for press in the beginning.
BlastProcessing
Member
It's like trying to sell you spouse on buying jet skis "But honey, think of the money we will save on movie tickets! They will pay for themselves in two summers!"
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I put this together weeks ago as I was tired of the meme.
Sanders has more "He is secret Communist/Socialist" material than any candidate that ever had a real shot at the nomination of a major party.
The GOP would have framed him as someone wanting to rape your daughters and take over national businesses and tax everyone more, within days.
The hands in their ears "lalalalalalala" Im not listening attitude to how unbelievably weak a candidate Sanders is has always been thoroughly amusing. You could not think of a more perfect candidate for a thermonuclear swiftboating.
They don't even need to dig up Sierra Bianca to kill his chances with latino voters...
The GOP wouldn't even have to mention socialism. Just make ads detailing Bernie's tax hike and he'd be done-zo.
StopMakingSense
Member
Just imagine Trump calling him "Bernie Chavez" every day for the next 6 months, along with "he wants to turn America into Venezuela!" repeated ad nauseum by every GOP talking head on every news show.
gutter_trash
Banned
Sanders is a radical from the same ilk as Hugo Chavez and Nicolas Maduro.
Kick and scream ''fraud'' when he doesn't get his way but then he's fine to suppress all opposing voices once his regime gets installed into place, just like Chavez did and how Maduro continued it
his stance of nationalization of businesses is a big Red Flag
My favourite guest speakers where Dr Brian Cox (gave a talk on essentially on Hadrons and educational opportunity while I was doing a contract at an London investment bank, the guy I was working for invited me down for the talk with a "you'd love this shit" despite me being on an absurd day rate and a two week IT contract: cool dude both Cox and Greg the project manager), Bear Gryllis (a bit meh really but I had a chance to talk to him for 5 minutes and he seemed reasonably cool) and Sir Randolph Fiennes (the best storyteller I've heard, his talk had fuck all to do with anything but was funny, fascinating and great had fuck all to do with anything the business (an educational IT company) was involved in, his fees go to his charity and he slept in his car overnight and the company donated the hotel fees to his charity.)
These things are essentially companies trying to get celebrity afterglow, they get to invite some key customer contacts and use the occasion to build relationships, it's a combination of staff perk and sales opportunity and I don't think I've ever been to one where the speech has been tailored to the company outside of some nice pleasantries. In Clintons case those pleasantries out of context would be damaging.
You're making the mistake of thinking that Sanders even knows who Maduro even is!
gutter_trash
Banned
oh yeah, I forgot.
the last time he was interviewed by Univision, he failed to answer foreign policy questions concerning other countries that are located on the same and the other nearest continent in the Western Hemisphere.
Dash_Riprock
Member
gutter_trash
Banned
No, the ads were perfect it's just that the pesky MSM didn't run them enough and the media was already trying to sabotage it anyway!
If people just gave it a chance they would know that the Wiiu was the better alternative.
Powdered Egg
Banned
Fair enough.
Hillary didn't start it. Not sure if she greenlit it behind the scenes but I recall someone from her campaign being on TV and entertaining the notion that Obama wasn't American. Seeing how she race trolled him it wouldn't surprise me if she greenlit that swipe.
From poligaf :
Bernie is trying to use the Bernie or bust crowd.
Ok I guess the article is closer to the truth than I thought.
Sanders is an idiot.
Bernie is trying to use the Bernie or bust crowd.
Ok I guess the article is closer to the truth than I thought.
Sanders is an idiot.
Messofanego
Banned
Karsticles
Member
If you guys watched the speech last night, I don't think you'd have this opinion. His language was strongly leaning toward supporting Hillary Clinton after the convention mess.
I've learned to not trust things that come out of Sanders' mouth.
I'd believe you if he would have vocally told his supporters not to boo her, instead of raising a limp hand. Those boo's were louder and more sustained than the ones for Trump. It's disturbing.
Oh please. They are "precedent" because the American electorate supposedly views empty gestures like releasing clean tax records a sign of transparency. However, when a candidate who says she will stand up to the banks and can be tough on Wall Street all while accepting campaign donations and giving six-figure speeches to these SAME people, you don't bat an eye. Totally irrelevant. Smear campaign. Yada yada.
Who just happens to caucus with the Democrats.
What is the great body of work of Clinton's that completely and utterly destroys Sanders Senate tenure?
I laid out a pretty direct last reply, which you didn't address. At all. You were wrong on your historical facts and wrong on the substance of my argument. Period. No one is talking "past you."
First of all you are making a mistake thinking this a small feat, basically Sanders is the second most successful looser in a Democratic primary after Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton who has been a household name for 30 years. Hillary who has had all the advantages you could possibly ask for in both of her runs.
We are talking about 74 year old, Jewish, self declared democratic socialist, from one of the smalles and least important states in the country, with a one trackmind and not many friends in power, without financial backing of a billionare who was running for the presidency. A candidate the majority of the country never heard of an year ago. A 74 year old who seemed to connect with a younger generation and was able to rise from obscurity to being a "cult leader" according to some. Why because he simply made the central thematic of his campaign those issues that young people run into - mass underemployment, lack of opportunities, an inadequate education system which leaves them under huge dept or without opportunities on labor market, a healthcare system which sometimes pushes costs onto those who could least afford them, no-paternity leave, a justice system more interested in putting people in jail than making the communities a better place, a foreign policy that just perpetuates war, a war on terror that challenges the very fabrics of international law and is utilized by terrorists to recruit into their army, an ever greater strain due to both globalization and automation leading to more unemployment, a campaign finance system that rots the very fabric of democracy, continued under-funding and corruption on regulatory bodies, a government that isn't willing to address real long term concerns regarding the climate, corporations drafting laws etc
Whether it's one issue or another there are plenty of reasons why he hit a cord and the continued belittlement of some of the issues "most people don't care about A enough" is a bit perplexing. Whatever the reason I very much doubt anyone in a few years will be talking the same way about this campaign.
In the end a lot of the "campaign" was regular people who got politically active through donations, phonebanks, writing a bit of code or simply introducing their friends and families to some of the issues that need to be resolved ASAP and could be resolved if there is enough pressure.
He carried the youth vote with such margins - shows that mainstream media has less and less effects on the way people are able to gain information. I have found the comments about Sanders not being attacked humorous - he has been attacked numerous ways online by very reputable organizations, surrogates, Super PACs, campaigns, journalists etc. He seems to have fared pretty well among people who get the majority of their news online - I think the results among voters under 30 demonstrated that. No matter when the blackout happened it certainly had an effect in his viability. Media coverage and what the media chooses to cover effects voter behavior. If anyone likes I can link several studies on the subject.
I'm not saying Sanders was a great candidate, others could have stepped up but chose not to. I maintain that in my opinion he would have been the far stronger candidate in a GE and hence I continue to worry about November. Hopefully HillGAF proves right about everything and I have nothing to worry about
We are talking about 74 year old, Jewish, self declared democratic socialist, from one of the smalles and least important states in the country, with a one trackmind and not many friends in power, without financial backing of a billionare who was running for the presidency. A candidate the majority of the country never heard of an year ago. A 74 year old who seemed to connect with a younger generation and was able to rise from obscurity to being a "cult leader" according to some. Why because he simply made the central thematic of his campaign those issues that young people run into - mass underemployment, lack of opportunities, an inadequate education system which leaves them under huge dept or without opportunities on labor market, a healthcare system which sometimes pushes costs onto those who could least afford them, no-paternity leave, a justice system more interested in putting people in jail than making the communities a better place, a foreign policy that just perpetuates war, a war on terror that challenges the very fabrics of international law and is utilized by terrorists to recruit into their army, an ever greater strain due to both globalization and automation leading to more unemployment, a campaign finance system that rots the very fabric of democracy, continued under-funding and corruption on regulatory bodies, a government that isn't willing to address real long term concerns regarding the climate, corporations drafting laws etc
Whether it's one issue or another there are plenty of reasons why he hit a cord and the continued belittlement of some of the issues "most people don't care about A enough" is a bit perplexing. Whatever the reason I very much doubt anyone in a few years will be talking the same way about this campaign.
In the end a lot of the "campaign" was regular people who got politically active through donations, phonebanks, writing a bit of code or simply introducing their friends and families to some of the issues that need to be resolved ASAP and could be resolved if there is enough pressure.
He carried the youth vote with such margins - shows that mainstream media has less and less effects on the way people are able to gain information. I have found the comments about Sanders not being attacked humorous - he has been attacked numerous ways online by very reputable organizations, surrogates, Super PACs, campaigns, journalists etc. He seems to have fared pretty well among people who get the majority of their news online - I think the results among voters under 30 demonstrated that. No matter when the blackout happened it certainly had an effect in his viability. Media coverage and what the media chooses to cover effects voter behavior. If anyone likes I can link several studies on the subject.
I'm not saying Sanders was a great candidate, others could have stepped up but chose not to. I maintain that in my opinion he would have been the far stronger candidate in a GE and hence I continue to worry about November. Hopefully HillGAF proves right about everything and I have nothing to worry about
other than Obama 3.0 with more foreign interventions and worse decision making
let's see
He won't let Trump become the next President, soo...
Hillary
If you can't see he's setting up an endorsement of Hillary, you might be the idiot here.
JesseEwiak
Member
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/giving-hillary-credit-for-schip/
Hillary is largely responsible for SCHIP, which craps on the entirety of tiny amendments Sander's supporters like to claim is the greatest thing ever.
Don't be dense.
My point is that the article is correct in that he's running the show and not his campaign manager.
Thus all the idiocy that came from the campaign is his.
titiklabingapat
Member
I was just reading the earlier part of this thread, and I laugh at some of the Europeans here with the usual put down on the USA. Last I read, it is Europe that is having a wave of nationalist, far right racist and neo-nazi movements here, not the USA. These parties are sweeping into power all over Europe.
We might have Trump but at least he only won a primary of a subset of our population, not a national election. Trust me when I say that he will be eviscerated in the general election.
We might have Trump but at least he only won a primary of a subset of our population, not a national election. Trust me when I say that he will be eviscerated in the general election.
Powdered Egg
Banned
But even with that, I doubt Europe goes HAM on minorities like we do in the U.S. Locking up nonviolent black/brown people is a billion dollar industry. Is Europe savage like that?
I'd rather have my racism out in the open than having a government throw rocks at vulnerable people and hide their hands... all while convincing a majority of the population that racism isn't a problem.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Look at Muslims in France in particular.
Powdered Egg
Banned
I'll take a look, dunno too much except for the episode of Vice on the issue.
France doesn't officially keep track of the race of inmates. From what I've read, based on witness accounts from the inside, a massive percentage of inmates are minorities. Particularly Muslim.
Why are you going on this irrelevant tangent? The last thing this thread needs is an international dick measuring contest.
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