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[Langdon Alger]

Is a low birthrate actually "catastrophic"? It would certainly be better for the environment and global warming if every country had a low birthrate.

Japans work culture scares me to bits. 12 Hour days is the norm?? The freaking norm?

Japan ranks 16th in the world if you look at their actual average of hours worked per week. The US has a longer work week.

 

[Althane]

Does it matter? You're still not free to go home and live your life as you please.

Sorry, phrased it incompletely. Basically, the number of inefficient hours is probably raised, because they don't have a balancing life outside of work.

So, if an American works 8 hours, and has ~2 of them be Reddit hours, I'd almost expect someone that worked 10-12 hours would be having ~5-6 of them be "Reddit" hours. Or just <50% efficiency style work.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Is a low birthrate actually "catastrophic"? It would certainly be better for the environment and global warming if every country had a low birthrate.



Japan ranks 16th in the world if you look at their actual average of hours worked per week. The US has a longer work week.

Catastrophic if all you care about is economic growth in the traditional sense.

Sorry, phrased it incompletely. Basically, the number of inefficient hours is probably raised, because they don't have a balancing life outside of work.

So, if an American works 8 hours, and has ~2 of them be Reddit hours, I'd almost expect someone that worked 10-12 hours would be having ~5-6 of them be "Reddit" hours. Or just <50% efficiency style work.

You'd probably be right in a lot of cases. It's not like countries with traditionally long work hours are shown to be more efficient or even have more output. Maybe they aren't on Reddit or just goofing off, but they're doing a bunch of a pointless shit just to fill time regardless.

 

[kirblar]

Is a low birthrate actually "catastrophic"? It would certainly be better for the environment and global warming if every country had a low birthrate.

Yes. They're not replacing their existing population. Ideally, you have a skyscraper. They have a pyramid on its head.

 

[4Tran]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think things are great in Japan at all, but this "worst in the world," or even "worst in the developed world" stuff seems kind of crazy. I've only lived in the U.S. outside of Japan, but I do wonder how our "social and political system" is so much better... We've got our own host of horrible and awful problems that don't exist elsewhere.

Both countries have problems, but Japan's long-term problems are much worse. Moreover, their social and political institutions and traditions stand in the way of them resolving those problems. Basically, Japan is one of the worst countries in the developed world to try to emulate. Even the US, with its share of issues, is a better model.

So you guys are saying I shouldn't go to Japan and teach English for a couple years?

Nah, Japan is great to visit and even to live in for a few years. It's problems are more on the long-term basis and tend to be institutional in nature. I wouldn't try to enter Japanese politics though.

 

[RoKKeR]

So much moaning about the declining birth rate. I think it is a good thing. Requiring or desiring that populations continue to rise is not sustainable.

It's an issue because the percentage of old people in Japan is skyrocketing compared to all other age groups, and the pension plan and welfare being paid out to those old people is crippling the economy. On top of this, the share of young people entering the workforce and stimulating the economy is also shrinking, so the negative effects are compounded. There was a great article about this on Vox the other day, I would link it if I wasn't on mobile.

 

[Althane]

It's an issue because the percentage of old people in Japan is skyrocketing compared to all other age groups, and the pension plan and welfare being paid out to those old people is crippling the economy. On top of this, the share of young people entering the workforce and stimulating the economy is also shrinking, so the negative effects are compounded. There was a great article about this on Vox the other day, I would link it if I wasn't on mobile.

Pretty sure this is the one you were thinking of.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Is a low birthrate actually "catastrophic"? It would certainly be better for the environment and global warming if every country had a low birthrate.

It's not that big of a deal in isolation. But when you're country is running some horrendous immigration numbers, it's really bad. You need good turnover of your nation's population to fill needs, and Japan has a serious issue with that.

 

[teruterubozu]

Is a low birthrate actually "catastrophic"? It would certainly be better for the environment and global warming if every country had a low birthrate.

It is if you want anime and Nintendo to survive.

 

[Fugu]

Oh, this article is such a load of idealistic bullshit. The fact is that Japan's isolation from the outside world is its biggest problem, and the positive characteristics of its society are not predicated on the society being nearly homogeneous. In fact, I would say that it's some kind of racist to suggest that that's the case. Perhaps the author of this article wouldn't be too miffed by such a criticism, however, since thanks to Japan's insularity it is one of the few places in the world where you can get away with spewing racist vitriol without so much as a sideways glance.

 

[Nivash]

It's an issue because the percentage of old people in Japan is skyrocketing compared to all other age groups, and the pension plan and welfare being paid out to those old people is crippling the economy. On top of this, the share of young people entering the workforce and stimulating the economy is also shrinking, so the negative effects are compounded. There was a great article about this on Vox the other day, I would link it if I wasn't on mobile.

I agree. Ceasing to grow isn't the problem. There are some benefits to it and most of the negatives, like the pension system, should be manageable. Even a gradual decline over time is acceptable. The problem in the case of Japan is the pure pace of it:

At the current rate they're going to drop from 130 million in 2005 to around 90 million in 2050. That's a loss of more than a third of the population in a generation and is followed by even further decline. And because it is due to aging, it's also basically a loss of the young generation. It's something you normally never see outside of wars and genocides - it's potentially society ending. Even automation isn't a particularly good fix because it would still only be able to turn the country into a giant geriatric ward and keep it stagnant or in decline all levels anyway.

Population stabilization is a necessity and managed decline can be a good thing. The demographic disaster in Japan is absolutely not either of those.

 

[Annubis]

There's nothing to emulate in Japan except maybe online gamers being nicer to each other.

If that's what you want, I'd emulate Korea instead.

 

[And_Gignac]

Well, it is poor word choice. Duckroll should have said "raped our women".

"Our women" is a typical phrase used to represent females as male property. I think that's what the user is referring to.

Not saying duckroll used it in such context or with that idea in mind.

And yeah this article reads as MAGA bullshit. As if "homogeneous" countries didn't have internal conflicts.

 

[Juice]

This is not surprising to hear. I recommend everyone read Embracing Defeat:



tl;dr during the occupation we had the unilateral power to make Japan into the country that contemporaries wish they could have made America into

 

[Frosta]

No thanks.

 

[4Tran]

This is not surprising to hear. I recommend everyone read Embracing Defeat:



tl;dr during the occupation we had the unilateral power to make Japan into the country that contemporaries wish they could have made America into

That sounds great until you realize that that power was placed in the hands of MacArthur and that he made a hash of it.

 

[PillarEN]

So you guys are saying I shouldn't go to Japan and teach English for a couple years?

No no no. Do it. You will have the easiest hours. Semi vacation practically.

It is if you want anime and Nintendo to survive.

Hmm... Plenty of people probably do want this. I mean, anime was a mistake. Nintendo is kiddy and only make gimmicky shit, why aren't they third party yet?

Disclaimer: not my opinion

 

[Frozenprince]

We just gonna ignore that the Japanese economy tanked 25 years ago and hasn't recovered?

 

[juicyfruitas]

We just gonna ignore that the Japanese economy tanked 25 years ago and hasn't recovered?

It's not like they've experienced 25 consecutive years of economic decline. They've had more good than bad years during that span.

To keep things in perspective it's still the world's 3rd biggest economy (with only the 10th biggest population) and the only other countries in the Top 10 with a chance to surpass them are Brazil or India and this won't be happening anytime soon.

 

[Izuna]

God no, one of the worst places to work in the world.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Japan is pretty well positioned over the long term. The country is overpopulated, so that is starting to correct itself with reduced birth rate. In parallel the industries are automating. So it's pretty likely that a country like Japan could much more easily move to a highly automated economy with and adopt a living wage than most other countries could, and it wouldn't translate into unrest. Also they're more likely to accept nearly unilateral requirements on the part of the government to adjust to new social measures; for example if the government decided to massively fund re-education for new industries, people would likely enroll as desired, not letting self interest entirely drive their decisions, as long as the temporary impact is offset by other measures, which it could easily be in an economy with a living wage.

So I think people are way off on their doom-and-gloom view of Japan, we'll go through the same or worst; we're certainly much less well prepared for the coming social and economic changes.

This chart is pointless for many reasons. The rate could fall, but what if by 2030 you got immortality in a readily available government-provided medicine? These long-term charts are devoid of the future context to judge the implications of such a low birth rate. By then, it might in fact be a big benefit.

edit: I think Israel is similarly well positioned, but it has a lot more potential problems on its hands to deal with, even if the Palestinian issue was resolved, mainly regional (so does Japan) and religious.

 

[TheSaddestSort]

Well this thread went places. Speaking from the perspective of a 4th generation Japanese American, I wouldn't really want the United States to emulate Japanese socio-economic policies, nor do I think that they would work in an American context.

Japan as a country has numerous problems, which includes its mistreatment of women, the rigid social structure, stagnant economy, inactive voter base, and hostility towards immigrants or individuals who are not "native" Japanese. The country is insular and ethnically homogeneous, though truthfully numerous European countries could also be described as such.

The United States, in contrast, has been historically defined by numerous waves of immigration and is much more ethnically diverse, especially in metropolitan areas along the coasts. Within the American context, immigrants are generally treated very badly before they achieve a measure of acceptance through assimilation.

However, as more ethnic and social minority groups make headway, the more push back you get from those in established positions of power. The Republican party has specifically designed its message to appeal to these individuals (e.g. white, male, wealthy, straight, Christian) and so a "return" to a homogeneous society where these groups remain firmly in control would doubtless be appealing to them.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

i'm ahead of the curve on that one

*hugs daimakaimura*

 

[Walpurgis]

What a long way of writing let's make America great again. My parents come from a country that is ethnically and religiously homogeneous but has been at war with itself for the last 25 years. Humans find differences wherever they can.

And most of those "western" problems that this white supremacist mentions don't apply to Canada. Race wars, "multiculturalism has failed", suicide bombings, mass shootings, etc, aren't a problem yet Canada is more diverse than the few countries that do suffer from these issues. A strange oversight but not too surprising from someone who peddling such garbage.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Erm...Japan went from 'bombed back to the stone age', as Duckroll vividly put it, to 3-4 world economy in the space of a few decades. Lost decades or not, that's quite an achievement.

Japan was #2 actually by 1990, not #3 or #4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_largest_historical_GDP

 

[Stinkles]

Moribund economy
Xenophobia and institutional and cultural racism
Shift to right wing isolationism
Catastrophic birth rate exacerbated by legal xenophobia
Moe



No thanks.

 

[EMT0]

What if you replace Japan with Nazi Germany? Should we give Germany credit for taking a hands off approach to Europe and allowing them to grow economically?

I don't think anyone would have an issue with anyone abusing the shit out of a person who takes a stance like that, but why do people object to it when it is about Japan? I think the common conception is that Japanese conquest was all about empire, which doesnt seem totally immoral if you only think about it for a second, but many people fail to remember that the atrocities that they committed in East and Southeast Asia were vast, numerous, and horrendous.

Pretty much. But this is GAF. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a large Japan defense force in place as-is. It's apparently in poor taste to call out Japan's bullshit? You people have been reading Abe's playbook of denying war crimes, huh? Call it distasteful, awkward, uncomfortable, etc. in order to avoid talking about it.

 

[Nikodemos]

Japan isn't even a good model for internal development. It's excesssively hypercentralised, from an administrative/infrastructural/fund-allocation p.o.v. Cities get the lion's share of funding for whatever (with Tokyo getting the most), while lots of other (notably rural, but also smaller provincial towns) areas are basically stuck in a schizo tech version of the late '80s.

 

[YN12]

Pretty much. But this is GAF. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a large Japan defense force in place as-is. It's apparently in poor taste to call out Japan's bullshit? You people have been reading Abe's playbook of denying war crimes, huh? Call it distasteful, awkward, uncomfortable, etc. in order to avoid talking about it.

It's not like that at all. Duckroll makes the comparison to Germany. Germany has been central to the creation of the European union. It's not that people have forgotten about Hitler or that they forgave him. The crux of the matter is that Germany has taken a rather active role within Europe, compared to Japan in Asia. Check agan this post of mine, as it seems to have got ignored:

Japan is the second largest aid donor in the world. Over the past 30 years, it has provided over $200 billion to development as part of its official assistance program. While the top recipients of Japan's aid are primarily countries in East and South East Asia, it is also one of the largest donors in several African countries.

The point is: Japan has pursued an isolationist policy. They seems to have decided at some point that it would have been in their best interest to send development aid to other countries, including of course Asian countries, than actually opening theirs doors to immigration. As for the war crimes, etc. Nobody is minimising them, it's just that Duckroll had a meltdown. A mod should know better than that. What if everybody starts talking like that about history? It would turn nasty (as it did here).

Edit:

To reiterate my point: http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/archivestory.php/aid/56/Japan_and_Asia:_developing_ties.html

The main reasons for this concentration of Japanese aid in Asia are clearly both historical and geographical, as well as economic. Aid, in the form of grants and low-interest loans, is mainly aimed at promoting the economic "take-off" in recipient countries and to promote economic stability in developing regions. While Japan has invested quite a bit in hospitals, sewage facilities and rural water supplies, its overall investment in basic human needs, such as rudimentary education and health, has been poor. Most of the aid has been aimed at building the economic infrastructure of the region and improving industrial production and services. Moreover, reflecting the importance of economic interests in its aid policy, a large portion of Japan's ODA has been consistently directed towards lower-middle income countries, which is followed by low income and then least developed countries. But Japan is not just an important aid donor. It is also an important generator of foreign direct investment (FDI), reaching US$13 billion in 1997. This accounted for a half of the nation's total outward investment. Private sector investment has been strong in the Asian tigers of Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Korea and Chinese Taipei, and has spread throughout the ASEAN area, which is the loose trading block linking Asia and Oceania. More recently, China has been a favourite destination of Japanese FDI.

This is to say: Japan seems to have decided at some point that helping out other asian countries would have been beneficial for Japan as well. But still refused to open their borders to immigration. It's a deliberate policy. Can we talk about policies, and have a reasoned debate?

 

[Rymuth]

I really think so.

Nanananana na nana

 

[anaron]

oh god


NO

 

[Piecake]

It's not like that at all. Duckroll makes the comparison to Germany. Germany has been central to the creation of the European union. It's not that people have forgotten about Hitler or that they forgave him. The crux of the matter is that Germany has taken a rather active role within Europe, compared to Japan in Asia. Check agan this post of mine, as it seems to have got ignored:

After Germany owned up to it, apologized sincerely, paid reparations, and after a significant amount of time passed. Moreover, all of their initiatives with other European powers was an attempt to try to avoid something like WWII from every happening again.

That is different from Japan because Japan has yet to really check all of those boxes.

The point is: Japan has pursued an isolationist policy. They seems to have decided at some point that it would have been in their best interest to send development aid to other countries, including of course Asian countries, than actually opening theirs doors to immigration. As for the war crimes, etc. Nobody is minimising them, it's just that Duckroll had a meltdown. A mod should know better than that. What if everybody starts talking like that about history? It would turn nasty (as it did here).

The US would have put the smack down on Japan with the swiftness if they started intervening in other nations after WWII. It wasn't a choice because the United States didn't give them a choice. They have more or less embraced isolationism, but lets not pretend that it was a choice in the beginning and that Japanese foreign policy was not heavily limited during the Cold War because of the US.

The original argument really makes very little sense anyways. Sure, Japan didn't really intervene in South Korea, Taiwan, and Vietnam after WWII, but the US sure as shit did.

 

[dity]

The amazing Japanese social political model where:

- A good chunk of the population is unable to speak an international language
- The birth-rate is shit and the aging population is destroying the economy
- The country has lost practically every economic, technological, and manufacturing edge it once had just a couple of decades ago
- The young generations are absolutely apathetic to politics resulting in a stagnant political system dominated by either insane old men, racist old men, or both
- It is socially acceptable to deny war crimes
- It is socially acceptable for elected officials to dignify war shrines housing war criminals

It can go on and on. What an amazing social political system. Let's all go UGUU~

B-but anime!

 

[YN12]

After Germany owned up to it, apologized sincerely, paid reparations, and after a significant amount of time passed. Moreover, all of their initiatives with other European powers was an attempt to try to avoid something like WWII from every happening again.

That is different from Japan because Japan has yet to really check all of those boxes.



The US would have put the smack down on Japan with the swiftness if they started intervening in other nations after WWII. It wasn't a choice because the United States didn't give them a choice. They have more or less embraced isolationism, but lets not pretend that it was a choice in the beginning and that Japanese foreign policy was not heavily limited during the Cold War because of the US.

Ok, so now we are getting back on track. The question that the article ask is this: should the US 'more or less embrace isolationism' as Japan did? What are the pros and cons? Let's have a reasoned debate here.

 

[orochi91]

Every countries in the world should be more like Canada and hint of Scandinavian countries.

+1

 

[Ratrat]

This thread will be fun in 50 years.

 

[Piecake]

Ok, so now we are getting back on track. The question that the article ask is this: should the US 'more or less embrace isolationism' as Japan did? What are the pros and cons? Let's have a reasoned debate here.

We have already discussed that a great deal though, and the vast majority of people in this topic seem to think that it is stupid at best and very Trump-like at worst. What else is there to talk about?

And I'll be honest with you. I find your call for a reasoned debate rather condescending. People get heated and passionate and insulting at times. Shit happens. Mods are people too you know, and as a person I would assume that you can think back to a time where you got heated and passionate and insulting. Hell, that happened to me several hours ago in another topic.

Perhaps you didn't mean it like that and I am taking it the wrong way, but don't pretend like your shit doesnt stink.

 

[sprsk]

This thread will be fun in 50 years.

Basically when we start to talk about Japanese culture in the past tense.

 

[Ratrat]

Basically when we start to talk about Japanese culture in the past tense.

Whats Japanese culture anyway?

 

[sprsk]

Whats Japanese culture anyway?

What I've been told during my 10 years living here is Japanese culture is mainly the following:
Gaman
Konjo
Reading the Air
Rice
Not Meat
Omotenashi

And of course the ever ambiguous yamato tamashii

 

[Ratrat]

What I've been told during my 10 years living here is Japanese culture is mainly the following:
Gaman
Konjo
Reading the Air
Rice
Not Meat
Omotenashi

And of course the ever ambiguous yamato tamashii

Whats Not Meat?
Either way, eh, those thing could last. I think language, food, cultural norms will be unrecognizable by then.

 

[TheSaddestSort]

After Germany owned up to it, apologized sincerely, paid reparations, and after a significant amount of time passed. Moreover, all of their initiatives with other European powers was an attempt to try to avoid something like WWII from every happening again.

That is different from Japan because Japan has yet to really check all of those boxes.

While I feel that Germany has done a much better job moving past WW2 without shying away from the uncomfortable historical atrocities the Nazis committed, the idea that often gets bandied about that Japan has remained staunchly unapologetic and hasn't paid reparations towards its Asian neighbors is false.

Japan has paid reparations immediately following the end of WW2 to various countries. However, China was excluded as the Nationalists in Taiwan declined reparations and when foreign relations were normalized between Japan and the PRC in 1972 Mao Zedong waived China's rights to reparations. Instead, Japan made payments to the Chinese government through ODA (Official Development Assistance) which amounts to approximately 3.3 trillion yen in loans and grants. In 2015 (depressingly recently), Japan also finally made reparations to South Korea for the care of the women the Japanese soldiers forced to act as sex slaves during WW2.

Japan has also issued numerous statements appologizing and expressing remorse for the atrocities committed by their nation during WW2.

The main source of controversy is whether or not the reparations that have been made are enough, and that the apologies made have been sincere, which I feel is perfectly fair. As a Japanese American I don't feel that the United States government's reparations for Japanese American internees and its formal apology erases the fact that they uprooted American citizens, caused them to lose homes, businesses, and possessions, herded them into internment camps, and then forced their young men to go to war for them.

As a result, I also don't think it's fair or just that the Japanese government (especially in recent times) has downplayed Japanese WW2 atrocities and has prevented their nation's textbooks from mentioning them. But to say that they haven't made any apologies or paid any reparations is incorrect.

 

[Nikodemos]

The problem isn't that they haven't paid enough, or apologised enough.

The real issue is that, a short time after doing so, you have some high-profile rightwing fuckwad shooting his mouth with some dumbass shit. This is what casts doubts over the sincerity of the aforementioned actions. It'd be like a high-ranking German official saying "aw c'mon guys, the Nazis weren't that bad; they discovered the link between smoking and lung cancer!" after the Prime Minister's visit to a camp or a monument to the victims.

 

[SapientWolf]

Good one.

Isn't the suicide rate of japan super high?

Japan's suicide rate and homicide rate combined is still higher than the same stat in the US. The author of the article is doing some very selective stat reporting.

 

[Antiochus]

It will be fascinating to compare Japan not with the United States 15-20 years from now, but with the EU, especially nations such as France or Germany, especially with the EU economic crisis coupled with the MidEastern/African migrant crisis and larger Islamic integration crisis that does not look to abate at all. One wonders if Germany will be a more peaceful, prosperous, and stable place in 2036 compared with Japan. This is perhaps the central point the author was getting at.

 

[Condom]

It's really hard to not go ad hominem on the writer of the article.

Let's just say that he is awfully misguided and doesn't know how to even portray his own proposal in a proper manner.

This because his analysis of the problems in the west (which are lol worthy compared to the rest of the world) ignores any context or ideological meaning.

To say 'the west has issues with globalization so that means we should be extremely xebophobic and closed like that country that has been experiencing economic and social issues for decades' is nothing short from insane.
The best countries to live in today are multicultural countries. People who fetishize on homogeneous populations, like, I don't even know how to address those people.

 

[TheSaddestSort]

The problem isn't that they haven't paid enough, or apologised enough.

The real issue is that, a short time after doing so, you have some high-profile rightwing fuckwad shooting his mouth with some dumbass shit. This is what casts doubts over the sincerity of the aforementioned actions.

Which is an assessment that I perfectly agree with. When Junichiro Koizumi or Shinzo Abe visit Yasukuni Shrine and then make an apology for Japanese war crimes it does raise questions about the sincerity of the apology.

I'm not saying that the Japanese government are saints in all of this, as you have pointed out, prominent Japanese politicians seem to act in a manner that is intended to provoke their Asian neighbors and drum up support among conservatives in Japan who would erase any mention of Japanese wrongdoing.

Let me be clear, I am not giving these individuals a free pass or excusing their actions. What am saying is that throwing out blanket statements that claim that Japan has never made any form of reparations and has never apologized for its actions during WW2 is false.

The reason accuracy is vital in this is that it makes it harder for Japanese individuals who are less inclined to be sympathetic to these issues to dismiss them out of hand. This is the reason "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang gained little traction within Japan and caused some to argue that it may have actually hurt the efforts to get the atrocities recongised.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

The country that has record low birth rates, high suicide rates, extremely poor work/life balance, and is steeped in xenophobia and sexual malfeasance?

Right.

 

[MGrant]

Japan's in a really weird place right now, and definitely not one that the US should emulate across the board, if its reputation in Asia is any indication. Here in Taiwan there's a big collision of cultures between the youth, who admire and want to enjoy the same lifestyle as Japanese and Korean societies, and the old folks, who were born under Imperial Japanese rule, many of whom will never, ever support a monolithic Japanese-style society, because of what the Japanese did to their families. The old folks are split on whether society should be traditionally Chinese or more global-facing, but none of them want the sort of regimented, socially conservative Japanese way of life to be Taiwan's way of life.

So it's all well and good to say "we should be like Japan" if all you're looking at is the relative standard of living and social cohesiveness of its population, but if you look at the animosity every other country in the region has towards it, its draconian work and social attitudes, and its refusal to apologize for past crimes, it's a whole different story.

 

[Joni]

I don't think any society should aspire to become a society where they have a word for people working themselves to death.