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[wmlk]

The same people who had problems with controls in Shadow will have the same issues here.

Controls are really never an issue to me. It only takes a while to know how a character moves. Button mapping was pretty intuitive so there was never a problem Wander wasn't doing what I wanted him to do.

 

[hemo memo]

There's a difference between shit controls and purposefully awkward controls

And shit camera too, yet core Resi fans want fixed camera back.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

If the video was published then Polygon's editorial was ok with it, hence why we can view Polygon as one entity.

Just drop it. The fact of the matter is that I don't think it's unreasonable for people to have misgivings about Polygon. However, it's lazy and disingenuous to throw largely unrelated examples out there in an attempt to discredit them. Maybe Polygon isn't a very good site. If that's your opinion then perhaps ignore threads related to Polygon? But bringing up that the guy who played Doom sure did suck is not particularly relevant or interesting in a thread about preview impressions of a completely different game by a completely different person.

 

[OldRoutes]

Paul Verhoeven made a movie called Showgirls back in 1995. A NC-17 sexpoliation movie that was almost universally hated and lampooned as one of the worst major releases of the 1990s. It broke away from many standards and ideas of what most consider "good", and was labeled as "bad" by the vast majority who saw it.

However, in recent years, Showgirls reputation has started to turn around in a lot of cinephile circles. It held as an subversive, craft-filled movie made by an intelligent director, utilizing themes of provocation he's been using his entire career. And I've read many long reviews/essays by people's voices I admire, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

Was Verhoeven "wrong" to make this movie, since most people didn't find it enjoyable? Well, it tanked with critics and it wasn't a big box office hit, so there's that regard(of course this standard doesn't even work for LittleBigPlanet, which has a 90+ metacritic and sold millions so lol). But everybody watches movies differently, and people went in with different expectations, different experiences, different values in cinema, and saw something quite good out of something most thought was bad.

Art does not have a one-size-fit-all design book 101 that can never be deviated from. Art and entertainment has no right or wrong, no yes or nos. There are certainly ideas and rules for constructing traditions, but many of the best work is unique, is not enjoyed by most people, is inherently weird and divisive. It does not make them "wrong".

Personally, I'd love to see somebody write an essay on the secret genius of Superman 64 or Bubsy 3D or some shit. Or vice versa, a negative review for a canonized "classic" like Super Mario World or Uncharted 2. That would definitely be interesting. If somebody really loves Busby 3D, they think its good, and they can tell me why, who the fuck are you, or I, or anybody to tell them they're wrong? Or vice versa for a game everybody loves and you don't like it.

Ah, interesting!

Maybe that movie came out too early? I mean, from what you're saying, you're justifying that he did something right because it's now niche and has a cult-like status... I think that's a really good example of something that's objectively bad but that people can like anyway.

I liked Small Soldiers but I know it's a bad movie. I liked SOTC (terrific game), but I know its control scheme and camera were bad, even back then. I didn't see it as a narrative advantage, but I was able to think "Yeah, this could be tweaked and made better".

I'm not saying that something objectively 'bad' or 'wrong' can't be enjoyed, I'm saying that it fails at what it intents to do, because it didn't do it well ; if Verhoeven wanted the movie to be shocking and counter some kind of cinema culture at that time, he had to know that he'd venture into some uncomfortable, un-explored area of the art-form. If he wasn't able to sell that to the audience at that time, he would've made something controversial. But he didn't. He made something seen as bad, perhaps revolting, and people found some good in it.

If somebody really loves Busby 3D, they think its good, and they can tell me why, who the fuck are you, or I, or anybody to tell them they're wrong?

Exactly. And to convince you, they'll have to tell you that it was intended to be that way, and that it works because the design intentions matches the result. But I'm sure the creators of Bubsy 3D would come out and say "Nah, that's not what we intended to do, we wanted to do this, and we didn't do it right".

And, I mean, that's the beauty of creation, isn't it? There's a reason why things are timeless and universally liked ; it's because they nailed it.

 

[ScOULaris]

There's a difference between shit controls and purposefully awkward controls

I feel like at this point people who don't grasp that distinction are either refusing to out of stubbornness or maybe they just lack the experience with games that have successfully deviated from the norm with their controls and still succeeded from a gameplay standpoint.

IMO anyone who played SotC and didn't have a problem with the controls will likely feel exactly the same about TLG. That's the impression that I get from every single gameplay video I've seen.

 

[Mushroomer25]

Except it's not an objective fact that they "control like shit". Many people, myself included, enjoyed the control scheme in their past games.

If the critic's point that the controls get in the way of gameplay is valid, I think it's fair to say the controls are poor.

It's fine for a game to have slightly sluggish, and heavily animated movement. But that's only acceptable when the challenge fits that control. Limbo isn't a game with terribly responsive control, because nothing in the game requires detailed movement. The control fits the challenge. There's a good chance that's what The Last Guardian is aiming for as well. This one impression suggests that the game fails to hit that mark, but it's a very subjective thing.

 

[hemo memo]

If the critic's point that the controls get in the way of gameplay is valid, I think it's fair to say the controls are poor.

It's fine for a game to have slightly sluggish, and heavily animated movement. But that's only acceptable when the challenge fits that control. Limbo isn't a game with terribly responsive control, because nothing in the game requires detailed movement. The control fits the challenge. There's a good chance that's what The Last Guardian is aiming for as well. This one impression suggests that the game fails to hit that mark, but it's a very subjective thing.

Play the IOS version please.

Spoiler

I disagree

 

[More_Badass]

And shit camera too, yet core Resi fans want fixed camera back.

Many people, even those like me who never played the original, felt the tank controls were the best controls for HD Remake. Not because of nostalgia, but because the game was designed with such controls in mind and they worked perfectly in the context of that particular game

In proper context of gameplay and mechanics and level design and pacing and enemy behavior, tank controls and fixed camera will feel right and suit that game

 

[Pif]

I thought polygon here in gaf was not taken seriously for their legendary bad journalism.

Anyway, I hope this turns out at least an 8/10.

No Mans Sky and Recore are enough for AAA overhyped stuff this year.

 

[Screamapillar]

Janky controls I can live with and sometimes overcome, but bad, inconsistent or unpredictable NPC A.I. is one of the cardinal sins of gaming. Bad controls aren't going to make or break this game, it's whether or not Trico's A.I. works as intended or not.

You're making assumptions. What does "bad AI" mean? How many other games out there are similar to Last Guardian? Are there any? If pets don't listen well, and need to be told to so something multiple times, or do try and go do something different when you want them to focus, is not "bad AI" as you say, if that occurs in TLG? Or is it a deliberate design choice by team Ico, and thus part of why the game has taken so long, to have such a realistic portrayal of a pet in a modern videogame?

 

[CrisKre]

You're making assumptions. What does "bad AI" mean? How many other games out there are similar to Last Guardian? Are there any? If pets don't listen well, and need to be told to so something multiple times, or do try and go do something different when you want them to focus, is not "bad AI" as you say, if that occurs in TLG? Or is it a deliberate design choice by team Ico, and thus part of why the game has taken so long, to have such a realistic portrayal of a pet in a modern videogame?

That sounds like an excuse dude. If the A.I. makes the experience frustrating and less enjoyable for a large enough number of the players, its probably bad, no matter what narrative you wanna slap on it.

That said, I really really hope this game ends up well.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

And, I mean, that's the beauty of creation, isn't it? There's a reason why things are timeless and universally liked ; it's because they nailed it.

But it doesn't always work that way. History is filled with works that were hailed as bad by many and are now held as classics. Or vice versa, works that were great and are now seen as dated or problematic or trash.

Stanley Kubrick's the Shining is a masterpiece, timeless and universally liked. It's #69 on IMDB top 250, it's #104 on TSPDT on the greatest film of all-time list composed of thousand of critic opinions, We can say that because everybody says that now. BUT at the time of its release, it was hated! It was "bad"! Roger Ebert hated it, Variety called it a butchering of Stephen King's work, it was nominated for several worst of the year awards by the Razzies. The general opinion at the time was that it didn't "nail" it. It did everything BUT nail it, in the opinion of many of the most respected voices in film criticism.

But now its loved. Now people can get on the same wavelength with the movie, and everyone thinks its a timeless work of art. But the movie didn't change. All the frames are in the exact order. All the sounds, the images, the performances, they're all the same. Only our subjective experience of it changed. It didn't get more "right" and it didn't get more "wrong". People weren't "wrong" for hating the Shining at the time it came out, and they're not "wrong" for thinking its a masterpiece now.

 

[Confused Cheeseburger]

That sounds like an excuse dude. If the A.I. makes the experience frustrating and less enjoyable for a large enough number of the players, its probably bad, no matter what narrative you wanna slap into it.

That said, I really really hope this game ends up well.

But it's not an excuse given Ueda's remarks on the game. He and his team are deliberately trying to create wild animal not a mount.

 

[martino]

if the game has emptiness and game mecanics like sotc without nothing more he can't meet 2016 AAA expectations
and since all games are reviewed with them in mind ...

and recore is a 30 month game with 50 people...don't think you can call that a AAA

 

[shamanick]

People train themselves to eat shit and like it all the time.

"It's part of the challenge!"
"He doesn't platform much so it makes sense that you wouldn't have control over him."
"Sixaxis is the best thing that ever happened to anyone."

Yeah I see this one all the time

We don't know if the controls are shit or unique or whatever. Just because Polygon said so doesn't make it true. It's very possible that TLG could play like SotC which felt awkward but contextually correct.

 

[CrisKre]

But it's not an excuse given Ueda's remarks on the game. He and his team are deliberately trying to create wild animal not a mount.

Again, that may be a bad decision, or a good decision implemented in a bad way if it becomes too frustrating for the majority of its players. They may very well have a plethora of great ideas, but like with every other videogame, how to balance those ideas and the way they are implemented and coexist within the game will either make it or break it.

And that doesn´t mean it isn´t an excuse by Ueda because the game was more challenging to develop that anyone anticipated.

I will also say again: I trully hope it all comes together beautifully, but this remarks and how long they have been strugling with this game make me a little uneasy.

 

[Fourth Stooge]

There should be menu settings for this sort of thing. We could choose between "Janky Ass Controls" and "Authentically Fucked Up Controls from 2001."

Then another menu setting that allows us to make the framerate vary wildly from 12 to 23 frames.

 

[Confused Cheeseburger]

Again, that may be a bad decision, or a good decision implemented in a bad way if it becomes too frustrating for the majority of its players. They may very well have a plethora of great ideas, but like with every other videogame, how to balance those ideas and the way they are implemented and coexist within the game will either make it or break it.

Agreed, I was just replying to your previous remark about an excuse when it's the direct intention of the designer. Given Ueda's unconventional thinking, I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt with Trico, some of the early word is that Trico is impressive in regards to AI.

 

[RedAssedApe]

People train themselves to eat shit and like it all the time.

"It's part of the challenge!"
"He doesn't platform much so it makes sense that you wouldn't have control over him."
"Sixaxis is the best thing that ever happened to anyone."

people do like their souls jank

Spoiler

myself included

 

[SirNinja]

We've just received word, GAF News can now confirm

More on this story as it develops. Back to you, Tom

 

[CrisKre]

Agreed, I was just replying to your previous remark about an excuse when it's the direct intention of the designer. Given Ueda's unconventional thinking, I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt with Trico, some of the early word is that Trico is impressive in regards to AI.

I agree with that, but I wont lie and say that it doesn´t make me a little disappointed to hear that the game seems to have the same problems his other titles had. Given the development time and how much the medium has evolved in these last 10 years, I would have hoped that we would see improvements in these areas from the team to elevate this particular issues to the next level. Hope Im making myself clear on this.

Ehh, regardles I feel I will love the game.

 

[gogosox82]

Kinda sounds like ico and SOTC thb. Honesty don't see what the big deal is.

 

[ItsDorf]

Used to be excited for this, but it's going to bomb so hard... Ill grab at $19.99

 

[Kai Dracon]

One of the problems with deciding what is objectively bad when it comes to play mechanics, is that there's still a lot of subjectivity. For example, some people are 100% convinced that the combat in every single Souls game is objectively wrong and designed badly, because there's follow-through on attacks. They believe every action game should never have a character that punches or swings a sword that lasts longer than the next button press and that every animation should be canceled by the next command input, so that the player can go fast fast fast and not stop for an instant.

Are they right? If so, then a huge number of famous games are made "incorrectly", not just the Souls series. (Incidentally, I've listened to some people say they hate fighting games because of this - they cannot accept ideas like block stun, or character attacks that have recovery time and leave them vulnerable.) What "gets in the way of the gameplay" is itself very subjective because different people have different ideas about how the player's interaction with the gameplay should proceed, at a fundamental level.

Interestingly, when I originally played Ico and SotC on the PS2, it never occurred to me that the games had poor controls. They player interaction felt appropriate for controlling fragile characters that had weight and reaction to the environments. When I replayed the games on the PS3, years later, my feelings didn't change.

However, I can understand intellectually that some might think that method of character interaction is "bad". Because it's different from a lot of popular games, and always has been in every generation. This goes all the way back to games like Prince of Persia, or Out of this World, or Flashback. Games where simulating the weight, physical limitations, and body awareness of the in-game character is itself part of the mechanics. It has always seemed that many, maybe even most people who play games, prefer feeling of the most instant response possible to physical input. That's not wrong and many games are built around it. However, it's also not right, and a lot of people have always complained that any game which deviates from whatever is most typical and commonplace in a given year of releases is "made wrong by 20xx standards."

I don't actually intend these observations as a pre-emptive defense of The Last Guardian. I've actually been skeptical about the game for a while and personally, none of the footage I've seen has looked all that fun to play. I'm concerned it could be Ico with a bigger, slower, more frustrating companion, and present no evolution of the underlying design of Team Ico's two previous games.

 

[Coda]

Love how people say this game plays like a PS2 game when in reality most games still play like PS2 games just with prettier graphics. Games really haven't fundamentally changed in quite some time.

 

[More_Badass]

I agree with that, but I wont lie and say that it doesn´t make me a little disappointed to hear that the game seems to have the same problems his other titles had. Given the development time and how much the medium has evolved in these last 10 years, I would have hoped that we would see improvements in these areas from the team to elevate this particular issues to the next level. Hope Im making myself clear on this.

Ehh, regardles I feel I will love the game.

I mean, they have. The boy's animations are light-years beyond Wander's gait and movement. Trico is Agro's much evolved cousin, in terms of being an animal with lifelike movement and animalistic behavior

 

[EatinOlives]

People train themselves to eat shit and like it all the time.

"It's part of the challenge!"
"He doesn't platform much so it makes sense that you wouldn't have control over him."
"Sixaxis is the best thing that ever happened to anyone."

You (and the poster you're quoting) are both just making shit up.

I played the Team ICO games like 10 years after they were released (hell, I even played them out of order, I jumped into SotC first). I never owned a PS2 so I really never heard anything about them other than "they're very quirky but good games". I tried them both and loved them both, the control scheme that has the characters move in a weighty, realistic way definitely contributed to the general feel of the game. The situation and timing in which I played both games had me way removed from the era that they were released in and what I later saw as Ueda's style.

Please point out where I have "trained myself" to "eat shit". It's like you simply can't comprehend others having different opinions that you make up cartoonish scenarios in your head.

 

[kaching]

Well, yeah, probably. We'd have to debate the intentions, again. I firmly believe they'd be better for it. If your games relies on an inconvenient camera system and controls for narrative purposes, you better be sure that you can justify it. And I'm not sure most people would've found the game less 'profound' or 'meaningful' if they had tighter control scheme and camera.

Who are "most people" exactly? Certainly it's not the people looking forward to TLG expressly because they played ICO and SOTC and thoroughly enjoyed those games for what they were. Let's not act like those people haven't played plenty of other games in the meantime such that they wouldn't have a sense for what "tighter controls" might have been like in these games instead.

And I'm not sure how many really think any game is worthy of being called profound or meaningful overall, nevermind just because of the controls, but the controls can certainly aid in creating a distinct and memorable experience at least.

 

[ocean]

I mean Shadow of the Colossus was a fantastic game, and so was Ico. But brushing off those games' misgivings is really strange.

I love Final Fantasy VII. But if a Square game comes out in 2016 with no support for analog sticks, and makes you move with the D-pad exclusively, I don't expect people to come out and say "What's the big deal? That's the way FFVII did it". If we get a first person shooter in 2016 which handles movement and aiming the way Goldeneye did 20 years ago, it deserves to be called out as a design fail, an obtuse and awkward experience which has no place in modern gaming - even if it was fantastic when it came out.

I really look forward to this game, but hearing it'll have clunky controls is a major knock on my enthusiasm.

 

[adamsapple]

At this point I'm more inclined to agree with Polygon, don't really see this game being reviewed favorably. I'd imagine somewhere in 70's on metacritic.

 

[More_Badass]

Who are "most people" exactly? Certainly it's not the people looking forward to TLG expressly because they played ICO and SOTC and thoroughly enjoyed those games for what they were. Let's not act like those people haven't played plenty of other games in the meantime such that they wouldn't have a sense for what "tighter controls" might have been like in these games instead.

And I'm not sure who how many really think any game is worthy of being called profound or meaningful overall, nevermind just because of the controls, but the controls can certainly aid in creating a distinct and memorable experience at least.

Just look at Papers Please. That game is probably the best recent example of having intentionally awkward and complicated controls/mechanics to deliver a distinct and memorable experience. Having to drag documents around, and manually stamp papers, and place them in the slot, and manually use the tools you get later, and whatnot. Shortcuts and automation would make those actions so much easier, but then it would lose that work-like grind and clutter of red tape that you need to contend with

 

[OldRoutes]

But it doesn't always work that way. History is filled with works that were hailed as bad by many and are now held as classics. Or vice versa, works that were great and are now seen as dated or problematic or trash.

Stanley Kubrick's the Shining is a masterpiece, timeless and universally liked. It's #69 on IMDB top 250, it's #104 on TSPDT on the greatest film of all-time list composed of thousand of critic opinions, We can say that because everybody says that now. BUT at the time of its release, it was hated! It was "bad"! Roger Ebert hated it, Variety called it a butchering of Stephen King's work, it was nominated for several worst of the year awards by the Razzies. The general opinion at the time was that it didn't "nail" it. It did everything BUT nail it, in the opinion of many of the most respected voices in film criticism.

But now its loved. Now people can get on the same wavelength with the movie, and everyone thinks its a timeless work of art. But the movie didn't change. All the frames are in the exact order. All the sounds, the images, the performances, they're all the same. Only our subjective experience of it changed. It didn't get more "right" and it didn't get more "wrong". People weren't "wrong" for hating the Shining at the time it came out, and they're not "wrong" for thinking its a masterpiece now.

Something like that can change over time. Some new design patterns can come out, people are used to different things and that can make the old somehow familiar.

But most likely, what happened is that someone took the time to explain the artistic process behind it. When I studied art, something like that came up with cubism, where Picasso, Braque and company decided to go against the grain to create something albeit controversial that wasn't immediately seen as objectively 'good'. It was something new, that didn't adhere to previous academic standards. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but If I remember correctly, the art-style became a norm when an exposition showcased the evolution of cubism over the few years it existed. People (critics, collectors, general public) instantly understood what the intentions of the artists were, and immediately found interest in previous works that were perhaps regarded as 'bad' at the time. [1]

But The Shining is a great example, actually. The Room 237 documentary is a good example of somehow that tries to explains the intents of the creator and how it probably changed and will change how future generations will see the movie.

The same way something can become retroactively bad ; sometimes, things age badly, and they're not as enjoyable anymore. But the reverse is also true.

Personally, I don't think we'll go back in time and believe that Bubsy 3D was a good game.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_d'Or#Salon_de_la_Section_d.27Or.2C_1912

 

[CrisKre]

I mean, they have. The boy's animations are light-years behind Wander's gait and movement. Trico is Agro's much evolved cousin, in terms of being an animal with lifelike movement and animalistic behavior

Yes, those areas have. But those have always been team Ico strengths. I meant specifically controls and camera movement, where imo there have been some legitimate complaints in the past.

 

[Vire]

The camera looks like a legitimate complaint to me based on the video footage that I saw. I can live with the controls since I've played SOTC a hundred times through.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

So the ICO like game, made by Team ICO, is like ICO? Niiiiiice!

 

[Asriel]

There's a difference between shit controls and purposefully awkward controls

Not necessarily.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Creator intent can't even used as a universal barometer of something being "good" or "bad", either. Woody Allen was hugely disappointed in Annie Hall. "The film was supposed to be what happens in a guy’s mind, and you were supposed to see a stream of consciousness in his mind and I did the film and it was completely incoherent," Allen said. "Nobody understood anything that went on and the relationship between myself and Diane Keaton was all anyone cared about. That was not what I cared about." The film as it is was not his original intention, its nothing something he's happy with, in his mind its a failure.

Its also routinely hailed as one of the greatest films of all-time. And this wasn't a retroactive thing or something that happen over an extended period of time. The movie won four Oscars, including Best Picture over Star Wars in 1977.

If Ueda comes out tomorrow and says, "Actually, I wanted this game to be a football game with really tight controls and this game is a huge piece of shit. If you like this game, know you are objectively wrong", that aint gon mean shit.

 

[CrisKre]

There's a difference between shit controls and purposefully awkward controls

Controls can be so purposefully awkward that they can be turned to shit. They could strike a balance there that elevates the game more as a whole. Thats the point.

 

[Dangansona]

There's a difference between shit controls and purposefully awkward controls

Yup.

We should have a gaming gaf month when the use of good and bad and similar words would be forbidden.

YUP. But only one month so the other 11 can be spent righteously confusing opinion and fact.

 

[Complicated]

I thought polygon here in gaf was not taken seriously for their legendary bad journalism.

Anyway, I hope this turns out at least an 8/10.

No Mans Sky and Recore are enough for AAA overhyped stuff this year.

Neither of those are "AAA" games. No Man's Sky was priced like one though. By the looks of it, Last Guardian has a similar budget to Recore. They both display an amount of jank that's to be expected on games that don't get the time and funding of marquee titles, and also recall the mid-tier games of the Ps2/Xbox era hence the comparisons.

 

[Carl7]

Watched their video on youtube and it looks fine to me.

 

[kaching]

Just look at Papers Please. That game is probably the best recent example of having intentionally awkward and complicated controls/mechanics to deliver a distinct and memorable experience. Having to drag documents around, and manually stamp papers, and place them in the slot, and manually use the tools you get later, and whatnot. Shortcuts and automation would make those actions so much easier, but then it would lose that work-like grind and clutter of red tape that you need to contend with

And there's a great example of a game where I was personally turned off by the controls but rather than make some over-vaunted argument about those being definitively "bad" controls, I simply said, "not for me".

 

[Spieler Eins]

There's a difference between shit controls and purposefully awkward controls

ICO/SOTC suffered from legitimately bad controls/camera. The platforming during the end of ICO... yikes.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

Sounds like a ps2 game is a breath of fresh air with all the overly cinematic corny ass games of this generation currently available.

 

[Oersted]

There's a difference between shit controls and purposefully awkward controls

That is an explanation, not an excuse. An excuse would be it actually changes the game for the better.

 

[usp84]

Actually I hope the controls are the biggest problem this game has. If they can deliver something like ICO then I am satisfied

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Just drop it. The fact of the matter is that I don't think it's unreasonable for people to have misgivings about Polygon. However, it's lazy and disingenuous to throw largely unrelated examples out there in an attempt to discredit them. Maybe Polygon isn't a very good site. If that's your opinion then perhaps ignore threads related to Polygon? But bringing up that the guy who played Doom sure did suck is not particularly relevant or interesting in a thread about preview impressions of a completely different game by a completely different person.

I didn't bring it in this thread and I don't even have a particular dislike towards Polygon, but I don't agree with the notion that we can't view them as an entity.

 

[SuperBanana]

I remember people saying the same stuff for Starfox Zero. The review thread is going to be a glorious and fantastic event.

 

[D4Danger]

Sounds like a ps2 game is a breath of fresh air with all the overly cinematic corny ass games of this generation currently available.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1277316

 

[Confused Cheeseburger]

I remember people saying the same stuff for Starfox Zero. The review thread is going to be a glorious and fantastic event.

2 things.

1.SF:0 is a worse version of SF64.

2.Team Ico's games legitimately control a very specific way, a way that wasn't altered to create some new scheme that fans actively resented.