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[Subpar Scrub]

Wow there's some crazy "be entirely on my side or be wrong" stuff in this thread so far lol

Nobody ended up responding to my first message, but that was to be expected. Ultimately it appears the discussion is currently about whether or not the bat attack was morally justified or not? It's obviously not about the dude being trash or not, because he is. It's also fairly obvious about whether the bat attack was legally justified or not, because it wasn't.

So it's down to the moral discussion of whether it was fair to respond to this asshole's words/signs with violence or not. Interested to see how this goes and any other viewpoints are shared.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Surprised the thread is 28-29 pages long.

I would think that this is one of those cases of "Sure, I don't condone violence but it's not like I feel sorry for the dude getting hit and I don't understand why the attacker did what she did."

I mean, goddamn if I ever see someone said that I or any women in my life that any of us deserved to be raped, I would hit that person with a bat too.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Surprised the thread is 28-29 pages long.

I would think that this is one of those cases of "Sure, I don't condone violence but it's not like I feel sorry for the dude getting hit and I don't understand why the attacker did what she did."

I mean, goddamn if I ever see someone said that I or any women in my life that any of us deserved to be raped, I would hit that person with a bat too.

Did I fantasize about murdering the man who raped my wife? Sure. Did I actually do it? No. Would I have been morally justified in doing it?

Physical violence is ugly to a lot of us. We don't want to perpetuate it, even for the worst offenders. We want systems that prevent violence. We want to change culture so that people aren't victims in the first place. There are dozens of ways to respond to that preacher that aren't blunt force trauma to the head.

 

[Orgun]

As someone who has been attacked and hit in the head with a bat several times, I feel no sympathy for that man. Wish she'd gotten a few more hits in.

 

[Royce McCutcheon]

As someone who has been attacked and hit in the head with a bat several times, I feel no sympathy for that man. Wish she'd gotten a few more hits in.

What does this even correlate to? Bloodthirsty GAF is the best GAF

 

[King Tubby]

have we added "pro-rape" to our "punch a Nazi/supremacist" list?

I don't think too many people would be taking issue at all if she'd only punched him in the face.

 

[old manatee]

Did I fantasize about murdering the man who raped my wife? Sure. Did I actually do it? No. Would I have been morally justified in doing it?

Physical violence is ugly to a lot of us. We don't want to perpetuate it, even for the worst offenders. We want systems that prevent violence. We want to change culture so that people aren't victims in the first place. There are dozens of ways to respond to that preacher that aren't blunt force trauma to the head.

A lot of you are missing the point that the system completely failed these kids. This guy was yelling hate speech and rape threats through a megaphone at school children for years before someone finally hit him with a bat.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

A lot of you are missing the point that the system completely failed these kids. This guy was yelling hate speech and rape threats through a megaphone at school children for years before someone finally hit him with a bat.

This can't be stressed enough

 

[Laughing Banana]

Did I fantasize about murdering the man who raped my wife? Sure. Did I actually do it? No. Would I have been morally justified in doing it?

Physical violence is ugly to a lot of us. We don't want to perpetuate it, even for the worst offenders. We want systems that prevent violence. We want to change culture so that people aren't victims in the first place. There are dozens of ways to respond to that preacher that aren't blunt force trauma to the head.

I would applaud you if you can exercise enough willpower not to kill or hurt anyone who you are sure raping someone close to you, but I wouldn't also actually judge you as some sort of a morally inferior human if you chose to do it. In fact, I wouldn't even blame you.

I am the kind of person where those who want to harm me need to do extremely stupid things to my own self before I chose to retaliate, but I wouldn't hesitate to strike back if others that I valued are being demeaned, bullied, and struck upon, including with absolutely villifying accusations. That said, if I ever have any of my loved ones talked down by this preacher with him saying that they deserved to be raped, I would strike him immediately.

I guess that would make me a morally inferior person? Maybe. But at least I am not letting him casually hurling extremely hurtful words to those I care for years with no repercussion because I trust in a vague concept of "system" or "morally justified actions."

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

A lot of you are missing the point that the system completely failed these kids. This guy was yelling hate speech and rape threats through a megaphone at school children for years before someone finally hit him with a bat.

"threats" is a pretty thin accusation. This guy's opinion appears to be that all non-believers deserve whatever bad happens to them, and he picked rape to be inflammatory and shocking and get maximal attention.

 

[old manatee]

"threats" is a pretty thin accusation. This guy's opinion appears to be that all non-believers deserve whatever bad happens to them, and he picked rape to be inflammatory and shocking and get maximal attention.

There's that word again.

 

[Media]

"threats" is a pretty thin accusation. This guy's opinion appears to be that all non-believers deserve whatever bad happens to them, and he picked rape to be inflammatory and shocking and get maximal attention.

This guys 'opinion' that school girls should be raped is a threat to women. Again, considering the horrifying amount of women and girls that do get raped in America, it's a genuine threat. There is not, however, an epidemic of hitting preachers with baseball bats.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

There's that word again.

You can substitute the equally value neutral word "belief" if you wish, but the fact remains 1st amendment protection is actually broadening, not narrowing, in terms of case law, and there is very little, legally, that anybody could do to have stopped this guy, as words like "threat" and "incitement" are extremely legally narrow and far more circumscribed than the rather looser use they have seen in this thread. In fact, the tenor of this thread - in which people argue this guy deserves to have the piss beaten out of him without stating they would do so, themselves - is essentially disproof of the idea that stating any particular individual or group morally deserve to have an ill befall them is equivalent to threatening them with it or inciting others to do it, in a specific sense.

 

[HiredN00bs]

A lot of you are missing the point that the system completely failed these kids. This guy was yelling hate speech and rape threats through a megaphone at school children for years before someone finally hit him with a bat.

I don't see why the length of time of street preaching would change the moral justification for striking said preacher in the head with a bat. One of the students could have obtained a peace order. They could have smashed his sign to bits. They could have stolen his megaphone. There are many ways this prick could have been handled without resorting to such barbaric measures.

 

[99Luffy]

Yeah, death threats to your head of state are a great example of your superior approach to free speech you genius.

Whos threatening?
Do you guys not know the difference between 'trump deserves to fall off a cliff' and 'im planning to push trump off a cliff.'

 

[TestOfTide]

Correct, I won't be baited by a troll into committing a felony.

So now a guy who was already assaulting other women is just a "troll"......

 

[iirate]

You can substitute the equally value neutral word "belief" if you wish, but the fact remains 1st amendment protection is actually broadening, not narrowing, in terms of case law, and there is very little, legally, that anybody could do to have stopped this guy, as words like "threat" and "incitement" are extremely legally narrow and far more circumscribed than the rather looser use they have seen in this thread. In fact, the tenor of this thread - in which people argue this guy deserves to have the piss beaten out of him without stating they would do so, themselves - is essentially disproof of the idea that stating any particular individual or group morally deserve to have an ill befall them is equivalent to threatening them with it or inciting others to do it, in a specific sense.

Do you see a problem with this? Bringing up the law to defend this guy is worthless, the law spoke when police defended him instead of intervening in the first place. The failure of the law is exactly why this woman resorted to a desperate measure.

I don't see why the length of time of street preaching would change the moral justification for striking said preacher in the head with a bat. One of the students could have obtained a peace order. They could have smashed his sign to bits. They could have stolen his megaphone. There are many ways this prick could have been handled without resorting to such barbaric measures.

Why do her actions get described as "barbaric" like his weren't too? He was the first to act, he provoked and threatened children, and the authorities looked the other way. I'm not saying this woman did the right thing, but she did *something* in an effort to protect children and other women. Her position is a sympathetic one, he's a monster.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Do you see a problem with this? Bringing up the law to defend this guy is worthless, the law spoke when police defended him instead of intervening in the first place. The failure of the law is exactly why this woman resorted to a desperate measure.



Why do her actions get described as "barbaric" like his weren't too? He was the first to act, he provoked and threatened children, and the authorities looked the other way. I'm not saying this woman did the right thing, but she did *something* in an effort to protect children and other women. Her position is a sympathetic one, he's a monster.

My position is and always had been that ignoring crazy assholes shouting things on the street is basically always the correct option, for a variety of reasons.

 

[benjipwns]

My position is and always had been that ignoring crazy assholes shouting things on the street is basically always the correct option, for a variety of reasons.

HEY WHY ARE YOU WALKING AWAY FROM ME AGAIN

HEY I'M TALKING TO YOU

 

[iirate]

My position is and always had been that ignoring crazy assholes shouting things on the street is basically always the correct option, for a variety of reasons.

Okay, but I'm asserting that her reaction is sympathetic. I'm not saying she reacted the same way you(or I, or anyone else in particular) would react. It is a problem when these people don't have to answer to anyone. Put aside legality, and what you would personally do. Can you not understand her desperation?

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Okay, but I'm asserting that her reaction is sympathetic. I'm not saying she reacted the same way you(or I, or anyone else in particular) would react. It is a problem when these people don't have to answer to anyone. Put aside legality, and what you would personally do. Can you not understand her desperation?

Sure, I understand being pissed, but I don't think violence is appropriate in this situation, no.

 

[Media]

My position is and always had been that ignoring crazy assholes shouting things on the street is basically always the correct option, for a variety of reasons.

The kids couldn't ignore him. He was there for god knows how long. It's not like they could just not go to school. And again, 1 in 6 women are raped and 1 in 3 sexually assaulted. Ignoring guys like him, saying it's just words, or boys will be boys, or it's not a threat is perpetuating the very culture that allows that shit to continue. Can you imagine, for a moment, the fear that women and girls face with those statistics hanging over their heads? It's pounded into us from the time we can talk. Don't do this, don't do that, you'll get raped. Still happens no matter what we do. It happened to me. It happened to someone you know, even if you don't know about it.

Take all of that into account, along with the fact that none of the adults or authorities were doing anything, and then tell any girl at that school they should just ignore it with a straight face.

 

[Veelk]

My position is and always had been that ignoring crazy assholes shouting things on the street is basically always the correct option, for a variety of reasons.

Why is it you feel that it's the correct action? Just because it's the legal one?

 

[SapientWolf]

Not sure if this info is already available in the thread, but I think this is the case record: https://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/caselookup.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

She pleaded out and got sentenced to probation.

 

[Unbounded]

Why is it you feel that it's the correct action? Just because it's the legal one?

Doesn't take a genius to realize that directly confronting a crazy person isn't exactly a good idea.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Responded to continued threats to her safety is all.

 

[Veelk]

Doesn't take a genius to realize that directly confronting a crazy person isn't exactly a good idea.

It doesn't take a genius to realize leaving a crazy person intimidating high school kids with threats of rape to his devices isn't a good idea either.

 

[the_darkness]

Where did the whole "violence is NEVER the answer" myth come from?

 

[Siegcram]

Whos threatening?
Do you guys not know the difference between 'trump deserves to fall off a cliff' and 'im planning to push trump off a cliff.'

The entire thread is about how continually promoting the idea "someone deserves *insert violence*" can become very threatening to that person/group.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Where did the whole "violence is NEVER the answer" myth come from?

When people whitewashed the realities of the Civil Rights and the LGBT movements.

People deny the fact that the history of progress, and even the left, is covered with the blood, ashes, and tears of their enemies even to this day.

There's a reason the right keep saying "so much for the tolerant left" to us. They want us to be non-violent, they want us weakened, they want us to look barbaric after we preach for tolerance and non-violence. They will continue their path of violence while condemning us when we're violent because they never, not once, cared about non-violence and only use it as a weapon to hurt and weaken us.

Least that's what I feel. I have always stood for non-violent solutions until they no longer work, but everyday I'm getting more convince that these aren't working thanks to the so call moderates who wants to give fascism, nazism, and other far right agenda a platform to validate them as "political opinions" because "freedom of speech".

 

[Laughing Banana]

My position is and always had been that ignoring crazy assholes shouting things on the street is basically always the correct option, for a variety of reasons.

If you tell me that I should ignore any person screaming that my loved persons deserved to be raped, I'd tell you to fuck off, personally.

Well, we probably show how we value our loved ones differently.

 

[Carcetti]

Where did the whole "violence is NEVER the answer" myth come from?

Not anywhere based on human history on planet Earth.

 

[EdibleKnife]

When people whitewashed the realities of the Civil Rights and the LGBT movements.

People deny the fact that the history of progress, and even the left, is covered with the blood, ashes, and tears of their enemies even to this day.

There's a reason the right keep saying "so much for the tolerant left" to us. They want us to be non-violent, they want us weakened, they want us to look barbaric after we preach for tolerance and non-violence. They will continue their path of violence while condemning us when we're violent because they never, not once, cared about non-violence and only use it as a weapon to hurt and weaken us.

Least that's what I feel. I have always stood for non-violent solutions until they no longer work, but everyday I'm getting more convince that these aren't working thanks to the so call moderates who wants to give fascism, nazism, and other far right agenda a platform to validate them as "political opinions" because "freedom of speech".

Couldn't have put it better. People who staunchly stand with the "Never Violence" ideal have not internalized the reality of the world we live in.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

When people whitewashed the realities of the Civil Rights and the LGBT movements.

People deny the fact that the history of progress, and even the left, is covered with the blood, ashes, and tears of their enemies even to this day.

There's a reason the right keep saying "so much for the tolerant left" to us. They want us to be non-violent, they want us weakened, they want us to look barbaric after we preach for tolerance and non-violence. They will continue their path of violence while condemning us when we're violent because they never, not once, cared about non-violence and only use it as a weapon to hurt and weaken us.

Least that's what I feel. I have always stood for non-violent solutions until they no longer work, but everyday I'm getting more convince that these aren't working thanks to the so call moderates who wants to give fascism, nazism, and other far right agenda a platform to validate them as "political opinions" because "freedom of speech".

Yup.

Violence has led to more progress than any amount of talking has.

 

[old manatee]

I don't see why the length of time of street preaching would change the moral justification for striking said preacher in the head with a bat. One of the students could have obtained a peace order. They could have smashed his sign to bits. They could have stolen his megaphone. There are many ways this prick could have been handled without resorting to such barbaric measures.

You're seriously blaming the minors for not handling it properly?

 

[Siegcram]

You're seriously blaming the minors for not handling it properly?

Especially funny/sad since you know people would still be in here handwringing and pearl-clutching if they did any of those things.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

It doesn't take a genius to realize leaving a crazy person intimidating high school kids with threats of rape to his devices isn't a good idea either.

A threat is generally "I'm going to do this", not "It would be acceptable if this were to happen".

Edit: Stating that you don't think hitting a guy with a bat for shouting vile shit on the street is an acceptable use of violence is not a statement that violence is never the answer.

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

Ms. Galaxy hit the nail on the head. These same blokes always turn a blind eye to State sanctioned violence because they will never be at the receiving end of it (for now).

Its telling also that they don't see the threat of rape as advocating violence in itself.

I hope Batwoman lands on her feet.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

The kids couldn't ignore him. He was there for god knows how long. It's not like they could just not go to school. And again, 1 in 6 women are raped and 1 in 3 sexually assaulted. Ignoring guys like him, saying it's just words, or boys will be boys, or it's not a threat is perpetuating the very culture that allows that shit to continue. Can you imagine, for a moment, the fear that women and girls face with those statistics hanging over their heads? It's pounded into us from the time we can talk. Don't do this, don't do that, you'll get raped. Still happens no matter what we do. It happened to me. It happened to someone you know, even if you don't know about it.

Take all of that into account, along with the fact that none of the adults or authorities were doing anything, and then tell any girl at that school they should just ignore it with a straight face.

I know several women who have been raped, and all of them are either conservatives or libertarians who would tell me that the guy, while a piece of shit, has the right to do this, and the girl, while her actions are understandable given the guy's incendiary language, was in the wrong to attack him. I'm fairly certain all would either ignore him or take a brief moment to chastise him, like some people in the video do, then move on to something else.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

If you tell me that I should ignore any person screaming that my loved persons deserved to be raped, I'd tell you to fuck off, personally.

Well, we probably show how we value our loved ones differently.

So if you're not going to ignore them, what are you going to do? Confront them? Argue with them? Attack them?

Honestly just curious.

 

[old manatee]

I know several women who have been raped, and all of them are either conservatives or libertarians who would tell me that the guy, while a piece of shit, has the right to do this, and the girl, while her actions are understandable given the guy's incendiary language, was in the wrong to attack him. I'm fairly certain all would either ignore him or take a brief moment to chastise him, then move on to something else.

It's totally not weird to put words in the mouths of rape victims.

 

[nelsonroyale]

When people whitewashed the realities of the Civil Rights and the LGBT movements.

People deny the fact that the history of progress, and even the left, is covered with the blood, ashes, and tears of their enemies even to this day.

There's a reason the right keep saying "so much for the tolerant left" to us. They want us to be non-violent, they want us weakened, they want us to look barbaric after we preach for tolerance and non-violence. They will continue their path of violence while condemning us when we're violent because they never, not once, cared about non-violence and only use it as a weapon to hurt and weaken us.

Least that's what I feel. I have always stood for non-violent solutions until they no longer work, but everyday I'm getting more convince that these aren't working thanks to the so call moderates who wants to give fascism, nazism, and other far right agenda a platform to validate them as "political opinions" because "freedom of speech".

I agree, there is also a false equivalence going on, which says all violence is equally bad. That doesn't necessarily work in the real world. I also don't generally condone violence at all, but we are not living in a vaccum. In this case, I feel the message he was communicating was more violent in a social sense than the violence that was committed against him.

 

[Litan]

I know several women who have been raped, and all of them are either conservatives or libertarians who would tell me that the guy, while a piece of shit, has the right to do this, and the girl, while her actions are understandable given the guy's incendiary language, was in the wrong to attack him. I'm fairly certain all would either ignore him or take a brief moment to chastise him, like some people in the video do, then move on to something else.

Sure.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

It's totally not weird to put words in the mouths of rape victims.

It's totally not weird to assume you can't predict the reactions of family members whose worldview you are very familiar with and who you have known your entire life.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

I know several women who have been raped, and all of them are either conservatives or libertarians who would tell me that the guy, while a piece of shit, has the right to do this, and the girl, while her actions are understandable given the guy's incendiary language, was in the wrong to attack him. I'm fairly certain all would either ignore him or take a brief moment to chastise him, like some people in the video do, then move on to something else.

I'm also a rape victim, and to be honest, if I was in that high school hearing this shit again and again for so long, I would have snapped and likely kill the guy by accident. I have PTSD and so do a lot of rape victims. You do not speak for all of us, let's make that clear.

 

[old manatee]

It's totally not weird to assume you can't predict the reactions of family members whose worldview you are very familiar with and who you have known your entire life.

Nah. You don't get to do that when it comes to rape.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I'm also a rape victim, and to be honest, if I was in that high school hearing this shit again and again for so long, I would have snapped and likely kill the guy by accident. I have PTSD and so do a lot of rape victims. You do not speak for all of us, let's make that clear.

I wasn't attempting to, I was responding to someone whose post made a somewhat totalizing claim about what the values of women and of rape victims would (or should) be.

 

[Skyball Paint]

My position is and always had been that ignoring crazy assholes shouting things on the street is basically always the correct option, for a variety of reasons.

Problem is, high school students have to be there. Imagine for most of your high school years, you hear some deranged bastard outside say you and/or your classmates deserve to be raped, and the adults around you refuse to intervene.

You understand why someone would feel they have no choice but to take matters into their own hands?

 

[Siegcram]

How about nobody speculates on the views of rape victims on this issue?

 

[Crossing Eden]

When people whitewashed the realities of the Civil Rights and the LGBT movements.

People deny the fact that the history of progress, and even the left, is covered with the blood, ashes, and tears of their enemies even to this day.

There's a reason the right keep saying "so much for the tolerant left" to us. They want us to be non-violent, they want us weakened, they want us to look barbaric after we preach for tolerance and non-violence. They will continue their path of violence while condemning us when we're violent because they never, not once, cared about non-violence and only use it as a weapon to hurt and weaken us.

Least that's what I feel. I have always stood for non-violent solutions until they no longer work, but everyday I'm getting more convince that these aren't working thanks to the so call moderates who wants to give fascism, nazism, and other far right agenda a platform to validate them as "political opinions" because "freedom of speech".

Preach!!