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"Preachers take 'war' to Topeka" (Gay marriage related)

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Mason

Member
Posted on Sun, Nov. 07, 2004

Preachers take 'war' to Topeka

BY ROY WENZL
The Wichita Eagle

What happened in May ticked off pastors Joe Wright and Terry Fox. They felt belittled, rejected.

Legislators rejected their plea to put an amendment to a statewide vote that would have defined marriage as being between one man and one woman.

Some legislators refused to shake Wright's hand. Others dismissed them as a nuisance.

"'Insignificant,' one of them called us," he said.

So, the two pastors cleared their schedules and drove Kansas for months, pleading with church leaders to get evangelical Christians to vote in November.

They succeeded.

They say politics in Kansas changed Tuesday. On Jan. 10, they plan to stand on the Capitol steps with 400 pastors at their backs.

Church people are awake, Wright said.

On Oct. 13, twenty days before the election, Pastor Joe Tuttle of Bethel Baptist Church in Emporia arrived at the Lyon County fairgrounds. He'd arranged a rally for 7 p.m. to listen to Wright talk about voting, and a statewide marriage amendment.

By 6:15 p.m., 45 minutes before the scheduled start time, several dozen people had arrived, from many denominations, from Lyon County and beyond.

Tuttle asked friends to count heads. By 7 p.m. the gathering place was packed. By 7:30, people were still coming in.

Wright told them "it is time for the church to awaken."

Get out and vote, he said.

Tuttle's volunteer crew counted 600 people listening.

He wasn't surprised.

"People felt like they should have the right to choose on the marriage issue and that the legislature hadn't given them the chance," Tuttle said.

People told him they did have the right to vote Nov. 2.

On the morning of Nov. 3, in Wichita, Vinnie Levin awoke to election returns that left her feeling heartsick.

In the months leading up to Tuesday's vote, she heard that two Wichita pastors were spurring evangelicals to the polls in Kansas.

She could see the results: they did it.

Levin and her partner, Kristi Parker, publish Liberty Press, a monthly newspaper for gay people in Kansas.

The television told her that voters in all 11 states voting on a marriage amendment had vehemently supported defining marriage as between a man and a woman. Commentators said evangelicals, coming out to vote for marriage amendments, tipped the presidential election.

Levin, who has a 3-year-old son and considers Kristi her wife, watched the news and realized that gay people like her, who already feel pressured to hide, were now waking up in a state where they might be less tolerated, less safe from discrimination.

"It broke my heart," she said.

Fox gave close to 100 interviews to radio stations and newspapers. He and Wright went to 40 towns and cities.

The sparks began to fly, Wright said. A flood of calls and e-mails came, offering help. Everywhere they went--Parsons, Emporia, Manhattan, Hutchinson and elsewhere--pastors turned out in dozens to meet, make plans and listen to coaching about how to preach without crossing the legal line that sparks IRS interest. Wright and Fox's lawyers helped coach them: don't criticize or endorse any candidate; just tell people to vote. Wright told people: "You know whom to vote for."

When the two pastors watched the election news Tuesday, they heard commentators speculate all day that high turnout was probably being driven by young people voting against Bush.

Clueless, Wright thought. The media didn't know what was coming.

But he knew.

Every time the television showed long lines of people somewhere, waiting to vote on Tuesday, Wright looked on, and felt a growing euphoria.

Those people in the lines looked like churchgoers.

Terry Fox the pulpit preacher comes off sometimes as intimidating. At Immanuel Baptist he preaches blunt talk about gay lifestyle, liberals, morality, secular humanists. He freely says "We're at war," meaning "culture war."

Fox in person is self-mocking, a good listener. He grins when Wright, sitting a few feet from him, teasingly says he has "aggression issues."

Fox says Christ demands compassion, not intolerance; that he's concerned that his pulpit image, carried on Channel 22, can be misunderstood.

On Wednesday, at Wright's office at Central Christian, he sat with Joe after the election, feeling giddy. There is a chance that Christians are going to take charge of culture war, he said.

"Christians have been pushed aside for too long," he said.

On Friday, three days after the election, he led a quick tour of Immanuel Baptist Church at 14th and Topeka, one of Wichita's poorest areas.

Twice in the past 10 years, he said, churchgoers voted not to join the exodus of churches to the suburbs.

They voted to stay, in part to help the poor, to support the central city.

Every week, he said, volunteers here pass out food and clothing to hundreds of poor -- black, white, Hispanic. The church funds, swelled with donations from more than 4,000 active members (500 new ones since the marriage debate took off), have built huge indoor basketball courts, a bowling alley, a hall for 1,500 children, and a cross out front, rising 105 feet. A beacon to the community. They do community outreach programs to help people.

"Nonreligious people have no idea what we're really about."

He said evangelicals are about everything Christ stands for.

Gay people already feel alienated, said Graylan Keefe, the pastor of First Metropolitan Community Church.

So now evangelicals seem to say "that God is a Booga-Bear," intimidating and intolerant. "Why should an already alienated gay person want to join that church?"

Patrick Hutchison, a spokesman for Equality Kansas, a civil rights group for gay people, said Wichita is a good place to live and is for the most part tolerant of gays. "I don't know of anyone who's ever been bashed."

He hopes a marriage amendment fails. He expects it to pass.

Vinnie Levin, the Liberty Press editor, said Wright and Fox have lit a fire under a movement "that wants to take away rights that I already don't even have."

"They say that as Christians they feel discriminated against?" she asked. "They are white, Christian, straight males. What do they know about discrimination?"

Every week, she said, she gets phone calls from people who were just fired by an employer or just evicted by a landlord. These people lost jobs and homes not because they got in people's faces about their lifestyle ("that's not a smart thing to do in this state") but because they were found out, and pushed out, by people who know it's legal to discriminate against gay people.

"You can't fire or evict someone because they are black," she said. "That's illegal. You can't do that to a person because they are Jewish, like I am. But you can do it to gays."

Most gay people mind their own business, she said. On Wednesday morning they awoke wondering what their nation and their state now intends for them.

"I was raised in the Jewish tradition so I don't know as much about Jesus," she said. "But from what I'm told, he was about love and tolerance. But there's nothing tolerant or loving about what's happening."

People will feel scared, she said.

Everything will come up for debate now, Wright said.

On Jan. 10, when the Legislature convenes, Wright and Fox will be there with 400 other pastors. Teams of preachers will stay through the legislative session.

To be heard, he said.

Statewide, he said, everything meaningful that has been rejected by courts, legislators and liberals could come up for debate now: prayer in schools, evolution, the Ten Commandments displayed in public buildings.

This time, he said, government will have to listen to people who think they got pushed aside for a long time.

If Vinnie Levin thinks Tuesday's vote will mean discrimination, that's unfortunate, Fox said.

Hurting people is wrong, he said.

"We want to reach out to all people," he said.

But the gay lifestyle is wrong, he said.

"Displeasing to God."

"And we are in a culture war."

War is never pleasant, he said.

My jaw just dropped when I read this.

Why is this happening to our country?

Do religious zealots just have nothing else to do? What is it?

I'm in the process of obtaining the email addresses of these two pastors. I'm going to send them a nice, long letter.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Good luck, but people like this listen to their Bibles and little else. After all, they're delusional enough to think that someone else's way of life is somehow disrespectful of their own religion. It makes you sick, it makes me sick, but to people with priorities so far out of whack that they put what they think God wants above their fellow human being, it doesn't matter.

And since they believe in it, I'll gladly say that I hope they get sent to the furthest reaches of Hell.
 

Belfast

Member
Hmm....in the past few days alone, since the election.

More hate against gays (i.e. this article)
Now there's this Sen Specter thing considering abortion rights.
The board in Texas is pushing for changes to health textbooks.
Iraq is in a State of Emergency.
People pushing for creationism to be taught again.

And, god damn, that's not even the half of it. I can't remember the rest off the top of my head.

You can argue whether or not Bush is really going to try and reach out to democrats and "unite" the country, but its pretty obvious that the evangelicals supporting him take his "mandate" to govern as *their* mandate to do whatever the fuck they want.
 
A lot of this non-sense is really not that important at the moment, especially with Iraq being the way it is. The zealots are trying to ride on the coat tails of the Bush win. But if it comes down to it where these guys feel it is war, and when they decide to take away my rights, I hope God can protect them from my rage.

Why should I have to fight for freedom in my own damn country?
 

Azih

Member
Bush is going to reach out.

He's going to reach out to those who support him. (his exact words from the press conference)
 
teiresias said:
Hopefully there will be PC's available for me to browse GAF on when I'm in the concentration camp.

No doubt the board conservatives will be spinning that issue like mad. It's to protect us [/celicar]
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Is there a link for that story? I'd like to show that around.
 
Teh Hamburglar said:
Too funny

They really believe it though. All you had to do is watch talk shows during the weeks after the Passion of the Christ premiere. They had a bunch of Christians on talking about how people were going to see the Passion so much because the media has been trying to push Christianity out. I wonder where exactly they're living where that's happening.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
SolidSnakex said:
They really believe it though. All you had to do is watch talk shows during the weeks after the Passion of the Christ premiere. They had a bunch of Christians on talking about how people were going to see the Passion so much because the media has been trying to push Christianity out. I wonder where exactly they're living where that's happening.


Christians have had a persecution complex for all of eternity.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
If Vinnie Levin thinks Tuesday's vote will mean discrimination, that's unfortunate, Fox said.

Hurting people is wrong, he said.

"We want to reach out to all people," he said.

But the gay lifestyle is wrong, he said.

"Displeasing to God."

"And we are in a culture war."

War is never pleasant, he said.
That's scary. Man, this really disturbs me. A few years ago I thought religion's influence on people was falling in replace of education, but clearly that's far from the case. I can now easily count out a ton of the country as being potential places to settle down.
 
Dan said:
That's scary. Man, this really disturbs me. A few years ago I thought religion's influence on people was falling in replace of education, but clearly that's far from the case. I can now easily count out a ton of the country as being potential places to settle down.

And my mom raised me thinking that Kansas was a nice place to live and visit. :/
 
So, the two pastors cleared their schedules and drove Kansas for months, pleading with church leaders to get evangelical Christians to vote in November.

They succeeded.
I don't agree with them, but I must give them props. It must've taken a lot of work to get conservative victories in Kansas.

"Christians have been pushed aside for too long," he said.
If by "pushed aside" he means "dominant", I agree.
 

olimario

Banned
I've changed my stance over time on Gay Marriage. I used to be so opposed to it, but I've come full circle.

I was reading the Declaration of Indipendance and I hit the part where it guarantees us 'Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness'.
Of course things like murder are against the law because that infringes on other people's inalienable rights, but gay marriage isn't doing harm to anyone or anything. If people don't like it they should mind their own business. Would we outlaw straight marriage if enough gay people disliked it? of course not.

Religious nuts and people who "value the family" need to stop throwing such a fit. Gay people won't go away no matter how hard they hope.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
olimario said:
I've changed my stance over time on Gay Marriage. I used to be so opposed to it, but I've come full circle.

I was reading the Declaration of Indipendance and I hit the part where it guarantees us 'Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness'.
Of course things like murder are against the law because that infringes on other people's inalienable rights, but gay marriage isn't doing harm to anyone or anything. If people don't like it they should mind their own business. Would we outlaw straight marriage if enough gay people disliked it? of course not.

Religious nuts and people who "value the family" need to stop throwing such a fit. Gay people won't go away no matter how hard they hope.
Where did you hide the real Olimario?! ;)
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Freedom and rights that are only for the privledged class are little more than a sham. One is only truly free when it doesn't matter what group or class is concerned. Radical christians are clearly threatened by the idea that they might no longer be the de facto privledged class by simply holding a majority, and must now strive to establish themselves de jure supremacy. What they do not understand is that they are working to undermine the very right that allows them to worship as they feel proper. The only difference between a country like Iran and what they want for America is the people in holding power.

The freedom to worship or not worship according to your right of conscience is inseperable from the freedom to worship or not worship without the imposition of others. A christian is not free if he or she must first obey muslim law. A buddhist is not free if he or she must first obey christian law. However, if you're in power then it doesn't matter since you make the rules. This is what radical christians want, not freedom.
 
For all the railing against homosexuals that the religious right used, the real battle isn't against them. The *real* war is the kind of "permissive" society that, in their eyes, is so immoral and out of touch with God that it begat mainstream homosexuality.

That permissiveness is, of course, tolerance and freedom of expression and thought. Those are the products of their real enemy-secularism.

They look at atheist, agnostic, and homosexual all alike-people who refuse to bow down to their God. Don't kid yourselves into thinking that you'd be free of their agenda because you're not gay. You aren't.
 

CrunchyB

Member
Nerevar said:
Christians have had a persecution complex for all of eternity.

Each religeon has that, to some extent. Muslims and Jews are a lot worse, but that's only because they aren't "on top".
 
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush will renew a quest in his second term for a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage as essential to a ``hopeful and decent'' society, his top political aide said on Sunday.

Bush's call for a constitutional ban on gay marriages failed last year in Congress, but his position was seen as a key factor motivating Christian conservatives concerned about ``moral values'' to turn out in large numbers and help supply Bush with a winning margin in last week's election.

``If we want to have a hopeful and decent society, we ought to aim for the ideal, and the ideal is that marriage ought to be, and should be, a union of a man and a woman,'' Bush political aide Karl Rove told ``Fox News Sunday.''

stfu Rove
 

FoneBone

Member
CrunchyB said:
Each religeon has that, to some extent. Muslims and Jews are a lot worse, but that's only because they aren't "on top".
I'd say Jews and Muslims at least have some legitimate reasons for having persecution complexes...
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
After thinking about what I posted earlier, I feel the need to ammend the part about radical christians being a de facto privledged class... but I'm not quite sure how at the moment. Basically, whether or not they were ever a majority, and they probably haven't, they had been getting their way for a long time. However, now with minority groups asserting the rights they deserve, they certainly feel threatened and likewise feel the need for a power grab to stop it.
 

fart

Savant
i think you mean to say they have traditionally held a near-monopoly on social and political power, and now that they only hold a majority (with other groups making significant gains over the last 20 years), they feel marginalized, when in fact they are only experiencing a dilution towards equilibrium given that they have always been the minority in terms of population.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
fart said:
i think you mean to say they have traditionally held a near-monopoly on social and political power, and now that they only hold a majority (with other groups making significant gains over the last 20 years), they feel marginalized, when in fact they are only experiencing a dilution towards equilibrium given that they have always been the minority in terms of population.
Sounds mostly right.
 

shoplifter

Member
Hammy said:
And my mom raised me thinking that Kansas was a nice place to live and visit. :/

Jonathan and Martha wouldn't stand for any of this.

edit: hopefully that makes a little more sense.
 

Doth Togo

Member
Mason said:
My jaw just dropped when I read this.

Why is this happening to our country?

Do religious zealots just have nothing else to do? What is it?

I'm in the process of obtaining the email addresses of these two pastors. I'm going to send them a nice, long letter.

"First there will be pockets of resistance around the country, similar to Waco. This will build up for years before an all out civil war in 2008."

-John Titor

:lol
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Fox says Christ demands compassion, not intolerance
"I was raised in the Jewish tradition so I don't know as much about Jesus," she said. "But from what I'm told, he was about love and tolerance. But there's nothing tolerant or loving about what's happening."

I'm Jewish, too. People often forget about the main lesson of pretty much every religion out there today: "Love thy neighbor as thyself" or "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

People have gotten so tangled up in the specifics of their respective religions, that they have lost sight of the big picture, of the general teachings that they follow.

It's really sad.
 
I can't believe that people think homosexuality is a contagious disease. What happened to letting people live in their own 'sin' and you live in yours?
Anyway how do these pastors intend to convert homosexuals make them watch hetro hardcore porn? Or maybe try to perform a exorcism?
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Doth Togo said:
"First there will be pockets of resistance around the country, similar to Waco. This will build up for years before an all out civil war in 2008."

-John Titor

:lol

Can we just drop the John Titor crap already? For someone from only 32 years in the future, he sure as hell can't seem to decide whether or not the new "civil war" starts in 2004 or 2005. Hell, going by him, there was supposed to be chaos right around, during, and after the election.
 
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