Support NeoGAF

[TNT Sheep]

TNT Sheep let's continue our conversation here ok

Alright, like other people have already mentioned. I think the Sega Saturn is the poster child for this. However, I believe all the consoles in 6th gen were underutilised for various reasons and to varying degrees. It was quite a short gen after all.

Regarding 60 fps PS2 games. For many of these games it was a design choice, e.g. fast paced games, or games requiring timing/precision, therefore 30 fps would absolutely not be a better experience. I would not enjoy playing DMC3 at SoTC framerates (15~30 fps) for instance.

 

[K.N.W.]

I will agree with you that PS2 was really one of the most unexplored systems, but actually any console is, since games and engines are made, now and especially at the time, with the purpose of being as good as possible on all platforms, so almost no one of the them fits the bill for squeezing out most of PS2/GC/XBOX/Other Consoles power. Gran Turismo 4 really makes you question most of the games out there.

Playing Soul Calibur 2 on PS2 and Xbox was a huge difference.

Good mention, with GSM on PS2 you can upscale the game to 720p from 480P (just like Xbox), and you get more or less the same result, with more pixelated but visible textures on the ground even at a distance, while Xbox has higher resolution textures that though tend to blur out in the distance due to filtering, proving again that nobody knew PS2 full capabilities for real.

 

[alphachino]

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Back then I remember talk of bottlenecks with the hardware.

If we’re talking least correctly used console in history, that might be Sega Saturn.

The difference is very big between the use of both. Sega consoles were widely used (and still are) homebrew programmer XL2 confirmed that the Sega Saturn was well used during its lifetime. XL2 got 750 quads in Sonic Z-treme and said he could have gotten over 1,000 but he decided to prioritize effects etc.

Dreamcast over the years, the community has extracted polygonal models from almost all games, analyzed the official tech demos and created homebrew tech demos, analyzed framerate, buffer effects, use of shadows, lighting and the issue of black windows in racing games, difficulties with foliage etc. and it has been confirmed that games like RECV maxout the system, hell also Blue Stinger and many others, 18 wheeler etc. DOA2, for example was considered the closest commercial game to a technological demonstration and, in a way, the limit.

PS1 also reached its limits quickly.PS3 and PS4 have also appropriately reached their limits. Among relatively successful consoles, only PS2 and Original Xbox were so poorly explored.

 

[bender]

 

[Bernardougf]

yes it is true, only Shadow of the Colossus, MGS3 and Hitman made decent use of the console, all those 60fps games you know could have been even better at 25~30fps all them.

There are many factors, whether related to planning or causality.

The initial dev kits were broken, generating games that were noticeably below what we see in future games with the exception of Tekken Tag where the developer really defended the honor of the series his merit, not the dev kit's.

the causal reasons were strictly commercial, it was enough to make a functional game and sell it
an example was Sonic Heroes, a game completely made out of spite, it sold almost 3M more on the ps2 than the sum of the other versions and the examples only grow.
this was the central reason why the ps2 was almost unexplored.

Difficulty programming

Working with the PlayStation 2 required time and money, its texturing system required care that most devs were not willing to take, making proper use of VU's was not something that many devs did. Despite, the developer called ERP said that there was a positive point, updated dev kits gave the developer a fabulous range of activities, almost everything could be done, so we return to the initial question again , reasons strictly commercial.

Conspiracy theory

There is a theory that Sony vetoed the use of techniques that imitated shaders and bump mapping in order to present such techniques as new on the PS3.
Yes, the PS2 didn't have dot3 but due to the fill rate the PS2 could implement this technique, completely modifying any game but Sony vetoed.
Another supposedly vetoed technique concerns texturing. The technique was developed in 2005 and would be a game changer, but at the end of 2006 Sony would launch the PS3.


PS2 (contrary to popular belief) was the console that had the least correctly used hardware in history.

Yes... in the multiverse where 30 fps is better than 60 fps.

 

[TintoConCasera]

all those 60fps games you know could have been even better at 25~30fps all them.

No, not a chance. Games like DMC or GOW are meant to be played at 60fps, same as with racing games.

There are also marvels like Valkyrie Profile 2, which looks amazing while running at 60fps.

 

[Crayon]

I need to re buy a PS2. Are they easy to set up via HDMI for modern TVs?

I use the basic retrotink. 2x, I think. Works great. I consider upgrading because more expensive ones have more options for the picture, but I use it all the time and I'm happy with it.

One thing though is it has a glitch that happens if I cycle through all the picture modes. It gets stuck looking fuzzy. All I have to do is power cycle it an put it on the mode i want and leave it. Then it's fine. It was purchased years ago though so that's likely fixed now.

 

[NT80]

The first two years of PS2 were really rough. It took a while until we saw really stunning games on the platform.

I remember Gran Turismo 3, Metal Gear Solid 2 and Devil May Cry all releasing within about a year of the PS2's release and all looked amazing while running at 60fps. Tekken Tag 1 was a release game and was the best looking fighting game I'd ever seen at the time. It's a far cry from how things are with the current gen. Now they struggle to run a game at 60fps unless it looks like a last gen game.

 

[MarkMe2525]

* if the disc drive still works

Stick a hdd on it

 

[Trilobit]

This isn't a rebuttal to your claim, OP. I just wanted to post a pic from my favourite PS2 game.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I will agree with you that PS2 was really one of the most unexplored systems, but actually any console is, since games and engines are made, now and especially at the time, with the purpose of being as good as possible on all platforms, so almost no one of the them fits the bill for squeezing out most of PS2/GC/XBOX/Other Consoles power. Gran Turismo 4 really makes you question most of the games out there.

Fighting games for example, a user and I were talking about doa2 and VF4, he implied that SEGA maxed out the ps2 with that game, I explained that unfortunately no fighting game pushes the ps2 even close to its limits, I mean until the beginning of the sixth gen with Tekken Tag, fighting games received prominence and big budget but as it became cheap to just make a game that works, they took their foot off the accelerator. for example DOA3 is running on a very powerful system being described as an 8.4M game according to urban legend I don't need to say how much superior to the arcade version of VF4 it is. To make matters worse, some teams at Sega have always made PS2 games grudgingly.

naomi 2 in theoretical specifications does 2.8gflops, has an independent T&L unit, 32mb ram at 100mhz, 32mb vram and 10M polygons per second with 6 light sources (can only be achieved in tech demo like the 3mpps of the Dreamcast). PS2 can do 150.000 poly per frame at 60fps and other superior features, but where is the platform's high-end fighting game?

According to the user who extracts the models from DC/Naomi VF4, in overview, 120k poly per frame (the limit) 60fps 7.2M is the limit in real world games on Naomi 2 (all games) I'm not sure but the data I have says that VF4 operates with 5 light sources. In the fight when it says ''round 1'' Naomi 2 pushes 80k so it's 5M in-game. The PS2 version does in game 2.5M with 3 light sources ( Sega did the best a company in financial recovery could do) Dreamcast's doa2 pushes 1,8M forcing engine as benchmark 2,82M.

Games like Tekken 5 and SC3 are also far from making good use of the ps2 hardware, I mean Namco was focused on making the Tekken franchise evolve but then retreated again finding the sweet spot in Tekken 5 ( After all, a game needs to have quality and fun too) SC3 is a glorified SC.

IMO the PS2 lacked that fighting game with characters with 15,000 polygons, fake bump mapping, lots of particles like in Burnout, etc. an intermediate game between doa3 (xbox) and sc3.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Stick a hdd on it

There’s that option- trust me I’ve explored them for the old CD/DVD based consoles.

Basically it’s a question of do I spend a few grand on doing drive replacements for my original hardware or just plan on emulating with my PC- which I’ve already spent about $3,000 on

 

[TGO]

The first two years of PS2 were really rough.

*Looks at the first two years of the PS2's life,*
So what would you call the PS5's first 4 years?

 

[cyberheater]

It did have Timesplitters. That’s the only game I can think of.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

*Looks at the first two years of the PS2's life,*
So what would you call the PS5's first 4 years?

Diminishing returns which will likely keep diminishing as TFLOPS keep going up.

I wouldn’t compare the current gen’s struggles to the PS2’s anti aliasing issues at all

 

[tommib]

PS2 was fine.

GameCube was better

Infinitely better. Compare RE4 between these two versions and it makes the GameCube something from the future.

 

[RaduN]

 

[Shakka43]

all those 60fps games you know could have been even better at 25~30fps all them.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

an impressive game like this having that bad image at launch, hell look Burnout 2 the difference
Sony made a lot of mistakes with the ps2, if the ps2 had been released by another company, without the ps1, it would have been a flop.

 

[TGO]

Diminishing returns which will likely keep diminishing as TFLOPS keep going up.

I wouldn’t compare the current gen’s struggles to the PS2’s anti aliasing issues at all

But the PS2 had a better first two years then the PS5 despite this.
Remember Cerny said the PS5 made games easier to to make and the turn around was faster then even the PSX.....
Even going as far to say a developer could work 3.5 years on a game and would get better results with 2 years on the PS5

yeah.....what the fuck happened there

Infinitely better. Compare RE4 between these two versions and it makes the GameCube something from the future.

Nintendo was smart in this respect because they waited for the technology and got the hardware out fast
Development for the PS2 started 5 years prior and was based on tech from that time which didn't include the stuff that would later be in the GCN & Xbox
It was powerful but the dated tech held it back considerably and the newer consoles could do new impressive stuff with new techniques easily that the PS2 simply didn't have and couldn't do and in the end there was only a year in-between release.

 

[RoboFu]

an impressive game like this having that bad image at launch, hell look Burnout 2 the difference
Sony made a lot of mistakes with the ps2, if the ps2 had been released by another company, without the ps1, it would have been a flop.

Yeah you really can't tell in still pictures but in motion it's obvious.

 

[TGO]

an impressive game like this having that bad image at launch, hell look Burnout 2 the difference
Sony made a lot of mistakes with the ps2, if the ps2 had been released by another company, without the ps1, it would have been a flop.

The game was actually impressive all things considered but was ruin by the image quality.
Namco should release it as a PS2 classic which would vastly improve it.

 

[ThatStupidLion]

Any examples that did take full advantage of the console? If not, any examples of what it would have looked like if a game did?

 

[MarkMe2525]

But the PS2 had a better first two years then the PS5 despite this.
Remember Cerny said the PS5 made games easier to to make and the turn around was faster then even the PSX.....
Even going as far to say a developer could work 3.5 years on a game and would get better results with 2 years on the PS5

yeah.....what the fuck happened there

Be careful about how you speak of the prophet.

 

[MarkMe2525]

There’s that option- trust me I’ve explored them for the old CD/DVD based consoles.

Basically it’s a question of do I spend a few grand on doing drive replacements for my original hardware or just plan on emulating with my PC- which I’ve already spent about $3,000 on

I love emulation, but it hits different. Nostalgia is a strong drug.

 

[Hudo]

Best console Sony ever made.

Even the PS2 Slim was awesome, albeit being the most useless console Sony ever made since you can't play FF11 Online on it.

 

[TGO]

Be careful about how you speak of the prophet.

I think this is a developer issue not a hardware development issue because games are so advanced.
They barely better then PS4 titles
Since the "crunch" culture was exposed developers are taking their sweet time because they know can call "crunch culture" if they are pressured to get a move on.
Sadly for them they didn't realise taking longer costs more, not releasing stuff doesn't cover the costs and cuts will have to be made.
That is the reality of it.

 

[MarkMe2525]

I think this is a developer issue not a hardware development issue because games are so advanced.
They barely better then PS4 titles
Since the "crunch" culture was exposed developers are taking their sweet time because they know can call "crunch culture" if they are pressured to get a move on.
Sadly for them they didn't realise taking longer costs more, not releasing stuff doesn't cover the costs and cuts will have to be made.
That is the reality of it.

I would imagine dev teams are aware that it costs more, they use the "anti-crunch culture" sentiment to extract more money from the publishers. I'm not implying they're wrong for doing so, but every step of the ladder is looking out for their own interests. As always, either the costs get passed to the consumer or the bubble pops.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Ps2 time at the time was about DVDs, a chance to play online and new graphics

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

If not, any examples of what it would have looked like if a game did?

a lot of games would have visuals like this



Others didn't even exist, like a fighting game between Soul Calibur 3 and Doa 3.
DOA3

 

[MarkMe2525]

Ps2 time at the time was about DVDs, a chance to play online and new graphics

That's it? Each one of those technologies were transformative to console gaming. PS2 and it's contemporaries, ushered in a new era of console gaming.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

I love emulation, but it hits different. Nostalgia is a strong drug.

I agree, there’s a reason I’ve got hardware pushing 40 years in my house

 

[Shifty1897]

Back then I remember talk of bottlenecks with the hardware.

If we’re talking least correctly used console in history, that might be Sega Saturn.

There was no correct way to develop for the Saturn. Only suffering.

 

[StereoVsn]

I believe the options are pretty much buying a modified console with HDMI or some kind of upscaler like a retrotink, which I’ve heard very good stuff about. Or have a CRT in a spare room, that’s what I have

Yeah, need to get good quality component cables and hook it up to Retrotink 5x (or 4K). Of course if you are really good at soldering or have someone who could do they for you, HDMI mod would be even better.

 

[bender]

The first two years of PS2 were really rough. It took a while until we saw really stunning games on the platform.

Disagreed on it taking two years To borrow a popular photo, there were a ton of visually striking games in year two.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

PaintTinJr

 

[TGO]

I said this before but I do believe the PS2 was very powerful but was held back by when it was conceived.
GCN & Xbox was more powerful at the time.
And I don't know how to word this but the PS2 had the most reach for what was inside it.
There's a lot of things it shouldn't have been able to do considering how old the tech inside it was.
And I think that was the only way it could keep up with the GCN & Xbox even if the Multiplatforms games looked worse.
It was punching above it's weight imo
The PS2 definitely had the Big Guns out of all the consoles, they was just relics with how fast graphics technology was moving at the time.
Also GT2 to GT3 A Spec is probably the biggest jump in graphics we'll never see again.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Question is, is it worth getting a PS2 in 2024 over a PS5?

 

[buenoblue]

Who gives a fuck 2 decades later

 

[polybius80]

There's a lot of things it shouldn't have been able to do considering how old the tech inside it was.

it was able to do the things it did precisely because the tech inside it, the tech in each system was very different, there are effects and characteristics that only PS2 and Xbox could do in enough quantities like in hitman blood money, black, area 51, matrix path of neo and burnout3 for example which is why they were only released in those consoles , xbox was overall more powerful except for particles as PS2 was more powerfull in that regard

there are always games where are problems for many reasons from time, to technical knowldege, etc, you will always find a game that performs better in one system vs another but your average game was gettin more complex effects as time passed, if PS2 didnt had power it wouldnt be able to hold up against the other consoles yet it did very well even being second only to xbox in many games even some with very complex effects




PS2 even holds very well against Wii in the average games (all things considered) to the last games of that generation around 2007-2008 when there was a lot of cross-gen games, PS2 still got some games after that but your average game of that time had already very advanced effects yet still recreated in a PS2





very different from the beginin of the gen where PS2 barely ran unreal tournament

 

[TintoConCasera]

Question is, is it worth getting a PS2 in 2024 over a PS5?

It costs 10% of a PS5 and has a fuck ton of games available, so why not?

I got one like a year ago and I'm quite happy with it, specially since I never had one growing up so there are tons of games available there that I've never played.

 

[polybius80]

Question is, is it worth getting a PS2 in 2024 over a PS5?

as a collector item is good to have one because they are very cheap, but if only for the games, you can emulate them with better graphics, I dont see how PS5 fits in a question you wont get PS5 games in PS2 but you can get some PS2 games and remakes in PS5 so you can get a PS5 and a PS2 very cheaply

*sure it depend where you buy a PS2 but $10 to $15 US dollars, I bought one for $15 with a controller and inside was a gta san andreas

 

[StereoVsn]

I use the basic retrotink. 2x, I think. Works great. I consider upgrading because more expensive ones have more options for the picture, but I use it all the time and I'm happy with it.

One thing though is it has a glitch that happens if I cycle through all the picture modes. It gets stuck looking fuzzy. All I have to do is power cycle it a put it on the mode i want and leave it. Then it's fine. It was purchased years ago though so that's likely fixed now.

Retrotink 2x “vanilla” or even a “pro” isn’t a good choice for PS2 because it doesn’t properly handle 480p (not sure about 480i). There was Retrotink 2X Multi (or something like that) which properly passed through 480p content.

Now days it’s better to get 5x. It’s more expensive but worth it since it can upscale to 720p.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I remember Gran Turismo 3, Metal Gear Solid 2 and Devil May Cry all releasing within about a year of the PS2's release and all looked amazing while running at 60fps. Tekken Tag 1 was a release game and was the best looking fighting game I'd ever seen at the time. It's a far cry from how things are with the current gen. Now they struggle to run a game at 60fps unless it looks like a last gen game.

Yeah its kind of overblown. The PS2 first 12 months was kind of dry, like any other console except for DC who came in guns blazing in the west. But the DC was out for almost a full year in Japan, and the western launch lineup did benefit from this.

PS2 however, there were some good games during its first months. TTT and RRV were good, if not groundbreaking. But TTT western version had a sick IQ and some excellent lighting and geometry in the stages. GT3 and DMC came out well within the first year in the west, in the summer of 2001. as did Silent Hill 2 soon after. These games are absolute classics.

 

[Crayon]

Retrotink 2x “vanilla” or even a “pro” isn’t a good choice for PS2 because it doesn’t properly handle 480p (not sure about 480i). There was Retrotink 2X Multi (or something like that) which properly passed through 480p content.

Now days it’s better to get 5x. It’s more expensive but worth it since it can upscale to 720p.

Now that you mention it, I don't think I have tried anything in 480p mode. In fact, I've used the ps2 with it more often to play ps1 games, which I heard the 2x doesn't work with.

 

[TGO]

it was able to do the things it did precisely because the tech inside it, the tech in each system was very different, there are effects and characteristics that only PS2 and Xbox could do in enough quantities like in hitman blood money, black, area 51, matrix path of neo and burnout3 for example which is why they were only released in those consoles , xbox was overall more powerful except for particles as PS2 was more powerfull in that regard

there are always games where are problems for many reasons from time, to technical knowldege, etc, you will always find a game that performs better in one system vs another but your average game was gettin more complex effects as time passed, if PS2 didnt had power it wouldnt be able to hold up against the other consoles yet it did very well even being second only to xbox in many games even some with very complex effects




PS2 even holds very well against Wii in the average games (all things considered) to the last games of that generation around 2007-2008 when there was a lot of cross-gen games, PS2 still got some games after that but your average game of that time had already very advanced effects yet still recreated in a PS2





very different from the beginin of the gen where PS2 barely ran unreal tournament

Yeah I worded it wrong, what I ment to say in simple layman term's is despite being the lesser of the Xbox & GCN the PS2 was a very powerful machine that achieve what it could out of brute power even though it didn't have newest graphical effects the later consoles did.
And that was thanks to what was in the box, because even though it was dated pretty quickly it was still a beast.

Hell I remember playing games on the GCN that actually looked worse then the PS2 versions.
Didn't help that a lot of GCN titles only use 16-bit colour while the PS2 uses 24-bit.
Although I don't think this a limitation.

 

[Lysandros]

The PS2 being hard to program for and underpowered compared to the Gamecube and Xbox is pretty well known.

PS2 was certainly not "underpowered" vs Gamecube. Gamecube was a highly efficient, less complex architecture with a more 'modern' GPU and CPU which released 1.5 year later. But in terms of raw power metrics it was actually behind PS2. And this view is shared by quite a few developers who worked on both machines at the time.

 

[Crayon]

I remember an old post that was proposing one of the chips had what looked like aa hardware on it but it didn't work or something. It was a really long time ago. That's all I can remember. Well, maybe it had something to do with dividing numbers. There may have been pictures with it?

Anyone remember this theory?

 

[StereoVsn]

Now that you mention it, I don't think I have tried anything in 480p mode. In fact, I've used the ps2 with it more often to play ps1 games, which I heard the 2x doesn't work with.

The 2x Multi should work with 240p and 480in I think. At least I don’t recall any particular issues with PS2 games, but haven’t tried PS1 with that. Well, and I bought 5x over a year ago and switched to that, lol.