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[chessy_08]

Were u at least impressed with what you saw?

 

[chessy_08]

Yes over a week ago, more than one thing

Were u at least impressed with what you saw?

 

[ChiefDada]

Yes over a week ago, more than one thing

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Were u at least impressed with what you saw?

Yeah, will be a very worthy upgrade for me on a 4k monitor

 

[chessy_08]

Yeah, will be a very worthy upgrade for me on a 4k monitor

I need to upgrade my tv. Tv only supports 4k 60fps and 1080 120fps with no real gaming features

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I need to upgrade my tv. Tv only supports 4k 60fps and 1080 120fps with no real gaming features

4k 60 is a great way to game unless you like shooters imo

 

[nosoynadie22]

Yes over a week ago, more than one thing

Sony: Oh I see...

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Sony: Oh I see...

 

[mansoor1980]

Yes over a week ago, more than one thing

 

[onQ123]

It will be more expensive than $500. My question is if it's going to be more than $700 or not.


Concord will be a major first party game. Pretty likely it will sell even faster than Helldivers 2 (so also faster than GoWR, Spider-Man 2 and any previous Sony first party game).

Why do people think it's going to be so expensive?

Besides the chips & memory/ storage prices going up there is no reason this should be as expensive as the OG PS5 if they can get it to 4 or 3nm

 

[saintjules]

Yes over a week ago, more than one thing

Don't be like Osiris Black. Tell us what you know

Edit: I was just teasing with HeisenbergFX4

 

[Topher]

Don't be like Osiris Black. Tell us what you know

We are trying to be nice HeisenbergFX4 . Don't make us get nasty. It will start with the waterboard. It'll end with forcing you to read one of thicc_girls_are_teh_best 's posts.....

 

[Fortuneelsewhere]

HeisenbergFX4 do you know if the things you saw was just quality modes bumped to 60 fps with pssr or they had other benefits implemented like aditional rt effects as well? Other question is without going specific of course what impressed you more in the things you saw? Many thanks my good man

 

[amigastar]

I can see GTA 6 with Raytracing on PS5 Pro. The question is what framerate and resolution. Maybe 60 fps with 1440p.

 

[FireFly]

Why do people think it's going to be so expensive?

Besides the chips & memory/ storage prices going up there is no reason this should be as expensive as the OG PS5 if they can get it to 4 or 3nm

The price per transistor is no longer going down significantly for newer processes. See: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/sony-says-big-ps5-price-cut-would-be-very-difficult.1667207/

 

[MasterCornholio]

Yeah, will be a very worthy upgrade for me on a 4k monitor

So a pretty noticeable difference compared to the ones we have now. That's good to hear.

 

[onQ123]

I can only imagine DF trying to explain over & over again that the higher frame rates are fake in every video lol

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Don't be like Osiris Black. Tell us what you know

Its not that simple and you're right, I shouldn't tease stuff I can't talk about

Its been a rough month, I will try and do better

Have family arriving starting this evening and wont be online much at all for the next week or so so hope nothing overly exciting leaks

 

[saintjules]

Its not that simple and you're right, I shouldn't tease stuff I can't talk about

Its been a rough month, I will try and do better

Have family arriving starting this evening and wont be online much at all for the next week or so so hope nothing overly exciting leaks

All good, I was being silly

 

[ShakenG]

Its not that simple and you're right, I shouldn't tease stuff I can't talk about

Its been a rough month, I will try and do better

Have family arriving starting this evening and wont be online much at all for the next week or so so hope nothing overly exciting leaks

All good Torreto.. family comes first mate.

 

[nosoynadie22]

HeisenbergFX4 when he sees Neogaf users speculating about PS5 pro or Xbox plans:

 

[Insane Metal]

HeisenbergFX4 is a wise man, he will only tell us what can be told to not get anyone in trouble.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I did in the quote of my own post in my reply to you above.

i think people see 2 ms and think the cost is negligible when its anything but. 20-35% is not negligible.

i doubt anyone thinks a 2ms cost is negligible, but in context its nothing. Because its the cost you need to pay to get what it's designed to do.

And the context here in question is hitting 60fps. Not 70... not 80 not 100... 60fps.

The problem is, and will always be when making any kinda console analysis and taking anything in isolation. Consoles are just not designed that way. With a console, every single thing in sites design is built to serve and accomplish a specific target.

In the case of the PS5pro, that target would be, in some cases, to take a game that is otherwise running at 1800p-2160p native@30fps, and run that game at 1080p+@60fps. If the goal is to accomplish that, then it means that without PSSR, the game going down to 1080p is probably running internally at 80fps+. While losing 16-20fps worth of performance is not free, but if its accomplishing its goal of getting 1080p+PSSR>4K@60fps, then mission accomplished. And no one would care that its "only running at 60fps" when it looks as good or better than the game running natively at 30fps.

 

[sachos]

What i like about the PS5 Pro is that Sony is seemingly pushing devs to go harder on RT, i want to see how good the quality modes will look on the Pro. RTGI in something like GoT 2 would be amazing.

 

[ChiefDada]

Its not that simple and you're right, I shouldn't tease stuff I can't talk about

Its been a rough month, I will try and do better

Have family arriving starting this evening and wont be online much at all for the next week or so so hope nothing overly exciting leaks

All of your inside scoops are VERY much appreciated. Can't thank you enough.

 

[Moridianae]

I'm recently replaying Resident Evil 2 on PS5 and I'm hopeful that this "Ultra Boost" will enable games like that(which were PS4/PS4 Pro initially) to perform much better in the mode where RT is enabled from their PS5 update.

Maybe it won't, but it'd be nice. I'm sure RE4 would be incredible with a performance boost from the Pro also.

 

[Three]

What i like about the PS5 Pro is that Sony is seemingly pushing devs to go harder on RT, i want to see how good the quality modes will look on the Pro. RTGI in something like GoT 2 would be amazing.

I'm hoping GT7 gets some love there. That game looks phenomenal especially in replays. Imagine everything cranked up in gameplay too.

 

[SlimySnake]

i doubt anyone thinks a 2ms cost is negligible,

The person i was replying to suggested exactly that.

For example, TLOU pt. 1 native 4k is typically 30-40fps but jumps to 75-80fps at native 1440p. And ML upscaling should cost virtually nothing in context (sub 1ms cost in exchange for gaining >16ms).

And no one would care that its "only running at 60fps" when it looks as good or better than the game running natively at 30fps.

you are not getting that unless you run the game at 4k dlss quality or 1440p internal resolution. at best, you will have to settle for 4k dlss performance of 1080p internal resolution which in no way is better than native 4k.

 

[Perrott]

The person i was replying to suggested exactly that.




you are not getting that unless you run the game at 4k dlss quality or 1440p internal resolution. at best, you will have to settle for 4k dlss performance of 1080p internal resolution which in no way is better than native 4k.

In the scenario suggested by that user though, wouldn't the 15-20fps overhead from the unlocked native 1440p performance mode make up for the 2ms required to make TLOU Part I run at PSSR Quality (internal 1440p > 4K output) at just 60fps? So in theory, it really would be nothing, and that's actually before accounting for the fact that PS5 Pro's GPU is larger than that of the original PS5, meaning that there'll be a pretty similar if not slightly larger framerate overhead than PS5's TLOU performance mode in this hypothetical PS5 Pro PSSR Quality 60fps mode, again, making the introduction of PSSR upsampling virtually free.

 

[SlimySnake]

Saw this in the latest DF direct. There is a great ray tracing benchmark here for consoles vs pc that will help us figure out what the PS5 Pro rt improvements could be.

This is from the Avatar devs. Basically how fast it takes for RT to calculate on XSX, XSS and the RTX 4080. Note that this is just for the RT calculations so dont extrapolate this to overall performance.

Before I go on with the math, here are my results.

TLDR:

• Best Case PS5 Pro RT performance in Avatar: 274 ms - 2.6x faster
• Worst Case PS5 Pro RT Performance in Avatar: 373 ms - 1.91x faster
• RTX 4080 RT performance in Avatar: 258 ms - 2.77x Faster

basically, RTX 4080 is 5.4x faster when doing the actual RT trace which makes sense since 4080 has way better dedicated hardware while RDNA2 is just kinda trash. Now everything else like lighting is around 2x faster which is great for us because that falls in line with the standard performance increase for the RTX GPU.

We can actually do A LOT with this info. Especially since XSX and PS5 are virtually identical in this game performance wise.

For example, we can apply a standard 1.45x improvement to the bottom four rows since thats what Sony is promising in terms of raw GPU performance. That gets us down from 319 ms to 175 ms.

Now for the actual RT trace, we know the PS5 is 2-4x faster. Worst case scenario: that gets us 198 ms + 175 ms = 373 ms. Thats 91% better. Basically 2x what Sony promised when they said the GPU is 45% faster.

373 ms is still way behind the 4080 which is ok because no one is expecting 4080 performance from this. But we are actually around 4070 Super or 4070 Ti performance if we take the 13 tflops 6700xt as the PS5/xsx equivalent.

Now where things really get interesting is if we take Sony's 4x number as the best case scenario. So trace goes from 396 ms to 99 ms. Very close to the 73 ms number of the RTX 4080. Adding the cost of bottom 4 passes again and we get 99 +175ms = 274 ms. We are VERY close to the 258 ms 4080 numbers. Again, this is the best case scenario.

So its entirely possible that the 45% faster GPU could be 90%-166% faster in RT games.

 

[alucard0712_rus]

I'm hoping GT7 gets some love there. That game looks phenomenal especially in replays. Imagine everything cranked up in gameplay too.

If this game somehow gets RT shadows it will look just perfect.

 

[bender]

If this game somehow gets RT shadows it will look just perfect.

Still needs better LOD management and further draw distance on shadows.

 

[RoboFu]

Remember back when devs use to make huge strides in the way they used the hardware from the beginning of the gen to the end? Now that we have so many layers of abstraction that is near impossible these days and we have to instead buy a $500 new version of the same architecture to get a fraction of what devs use to could do in software with clever new coding techniques.

It all Just makes me more sad than excited.

 

[Fortuneelsewhere]

Remember back when devs use to make huge strides in the way they used the hardware from the beginning of the gen to the end? Now that we have so many layers of abstraction that is near impossible these days and we have to instead buy a $500 new version of the same architecture to get a fraction of what devs use to could do in software with clever new coding techniques.

It all Just makes me more sad than excited.

Don’t loose hope… did you saw the new DS2 trailer? That game looks awesome and it’s a clear step up from what we have today regarding rendering technics and graphics fidelity.. next couple of years will start to see some fantastic games..

 

[ChiefDada]

If this game somehow gets RT shadows it will look just perfect.

Can be said for a lot of Sony 1st party games, namely HFW and GoW Ragnarok

 

[meech]

Remember back when devs use to make huge strides in the way they used the hardware from the beginning of the gen to the end? Now that we have so many layers of abstraction that is near impossible these days and we have to instead buy a $500 new version of the same architecture to get a fraction of what devs use to could do in software with clever new coding techniques.

It all Just makes me more sad than excited.

Maybe it will be more affordable with Ai coding, who knows.

 

[SlimySnake]

Remember back when devs use to make huge strides in the way they used the hardware from the beginning of the gen to the end? Now that we have so many layers of abstraction that is near impossible these days and we have to instead buy a $500 new version of the same architecture to get a fraction of what devs use to could do in software with clever new coding techniques.

It all Just makes me more sad than excited.

Huh? I suggest looking at the gdc dev presentations. You just have avatar devs point out all the insane things they did to try and get rtgi, rt shadows and rt reflections in a next Gen game at 60 fps no less. On the same console that was only able to do rt shadows at launch on cross Gen games like cyberpunk. And rt reflections on other last Gen games like watch dogs and Spider-Man. Avatar pushes next Gen foliage and draw distance and is still able to extract so much out of the ps5.

Or check any of the ue5 demos and see what they are doing with it. 1943 looks insane. You have epic literally doubling cpu performance of the engine since the heavily cpu bound matrix demo.

We are only half way through the Gen. By this time last Gen the ps4 pro had launched. Didn’t stop devs from squeezing out perf from the base consoles as they released stunners like rdr2, death stranding, tlou2 and ghost of tsushima towards the end of the gen.

The same will happen this gen, only it will be far more drastic as devs fondly start using mesh shaders, the ssd and multithreaded cpus to get more and more out of the console hardware. Something they have barely scratched the surface of thanks to an extended 3 year cross Gen cycle. Avatar and Alan wait 2 are actually the first non ue5 titles to use primitive/mesh shaders.

Watch the kingmakers trailer and dev interview with df and you’ll see indie devs using amazing techniques to do npc on the gpu instead of having the cpu tackle 4000 npcs on screen fighting each other.

The nanite driven tesselation in ue5 is simply amazing and cheap in comparison. You’re just not looking hard enough.

 

[onQ123]

Remember back when devs use to make huge strides in the way they used the hardware from the beginning of the gen to the end? Now that we have so many layers of abstraction that is near impossible these days and we have to instead buy a $500 new version of the same architecture to get a fraction of what devs use to could do in software with clever new coding techniques.

It all Just makes me more sad than excited.

You say that yet PS4 , Xbox One & Switch has been pushed longer than consoles from the past.

 

[yurinka]

Why do people think it's going to be so expensive?

Besides the chips & memory/ storage prices going up there is no reason this should be as expensive as the OG PS5 if they can get it to 4 or 3nm

The hardware component costs and shipment costs increased a lot in recent years, to the point it's hurting Sony's profits, and costs ands inflation keep growing.

So the Pro must have way more expensive costs, and Sony may not want to be selling it at a loss as did with the base PS5 to compensate at least part of the money they lose by selling base PS5 consoles.

 

[Barakov]

Yes over a week ago, more than one thing

 

[onQ123]

The hardware component costs and shipment costs increased a lot in recent years, to the point it's hurting Sony's profits, and costs ands inflation keep growing.

So the Pro must have way more expensive costs, and Sony may not want to be selling it at a loss as did with the base PS5 to compensate at least part of the money they lose by selling base PS5 consoles.

Yes I know but the $700 price people saying is about how much it would cost if there wasn't any die shrink between PS5 & PS5 Pro.


Pro consoles actually encourage die shrinks instead of the company feeling like it's not worth the effort & moving on to new hardware so we should see a price drop for PS5 that comes along with the PS5 Pro production.

 

[AncientOrigin]

Consider that component costs have been increasing a lot, so base PS5 must be selling at a nice loss. Sony wants to improve their profitability, so very likely won't sell the Pro at a loss, or will try to sell it with a minimal loss.

In fact, Sony may end increasing the price of base PS5 again.

No base is selling at a Profit.It would be laughable to think the base model with it by now ancient tech is selling at a loss.Sony pays AMD for the apu not more than 200 if you take all other things let’s say ram is 50 production cost is per unit 30 shipping is per unit 20.SSD 50 smaller parts like usb ports 1 ventilation 5 copper 10 l-20 The base cost Sony around 400 max.but it’s probably lower around 350 I guess.

 

[yurinka]

Yes I know but the $700 price people saying is about how much it would cost if there wasn't any die shrink between PS5 & PS5 Pro.

Pro consoles actually encourage die shrinks instead of the company feeling like it's not worth the effort & moving on to new hardware so we should see a price drop for PS5 that comes along with the PS5 Pro production.

No base is selling at a Profit.It would be laughable to think the base model with it by now ancient tech is selling at a loss.Sony pays AMD for the apu not more than 200 if you take all other things let’s say ram is 50 production cost is per unit 30 shipping is per unit 20.SSD 50 smaller parts like usb ports 1 ventilation 5 copper 10 l-20 The base cost Sony around 400 max.but it’s probably lower around 350 I guess.

I didn't made it up, it's something that the current SIE CEO Totoki said and is well known.

In the past at some point PS5 was sold at a profit, but big inflation and other covid related issues made prices of the hardware components (plus shipments) to keep rising over years to the point that -unlike all the previous generations- the time affects it in the opposite way: now these costs instead of becoming cheaper over time they keep becoming more expensive, so it is one of the reasons of why he thinks the company has to improve their profitability: to compensate these unexpected costs.

That was also the reason of why PS5 has not been price cutted, but instead increased its price: to partly compensate it.

I assume they didn't rise the PS5 price again because they need to push consoles and made a too optimistic forecast so keep discounting it. But I assume won't be the case for Pro. I think they'll try to sell the Pro at a profit (considering that in the rest of the years of the generation pretty likely there will be also a big inflation), and obviously the components costs of the Pro will be more expensive than the base PS5 ones.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

The person i was replying to suggested exactly that.




you are not getting that unless you run the game at 4k dlss quality or 1440p internal resolution. at best, you will have to settle for 4k dlss performance of 1080p internal resolution which in no way is better than native 4k.

Any game that has a native 1440p/4K mode that isn't CPU bottlenecked, would be able to have a 1440p mode that can then be upscaled to 4k and run at 60.

And even if it doesn't look on par with the native 4K version, it would come close enough, or at the very least significantly better than what our current performance modes are. And that is good enough.

 

[playsaves3]

A console will never match the high end hardware released in the same generation.
Just look at the PS5, it has a cutdown Zen2 CPU, and a GPU with a mix of RDNA1 and RDNA2 features.
At the same time, PCs already had Zen3 CPUs and full RDNA2 GPUs doing more than twice the compute power. And Nvidia's Ampere was doing even better, regarding RT and AI.
Consoles do have many advantages, but peak performance is not one of them.
By the time the PS6 releases, there will be products from AMD, Nvidia and Intel, from the same generation, performing a lot better.

Sony really screwed up not using zen 3 especially if they were always gonna do a pro model that was stuck with the same cpu but I don’t think they will make this colossal mistake again with the ps6 assuming 2028-2029 for its release it should be sporting zen 7 (which will be the latest at that time) or potentially the first device using zen 8 I don’t think they would use zen 6

 

[playsaves3]

Small gap between the PS56 and a 4080?
The 4080 is more than 3 times faster than a PS5 in rasterization. And in ray-tracing it's a massacre.

The 4080 is not 3x the raster of the ps5 let alone more than 3x not even the 4090 is it’s in between 2-2.5x but you maybe you can get 3x the performance in some games if you pair it with a top end cpu

 

[playsaves3]

The craziest part is it's the same guy who said this:




PS5 Pro has a huge increase in RT features compared to the PS5...but the gap between the RTX 4080 and the PS5 is small.

Yeah the above guy is weird the 4080 slaughters the ps5 in rt and I expect the pro to while not be 4080 in that area do similar. I think all he was trying to say steelmanning his argument is there is gonna be a lot of specialized hardware that is gonna allow the ps6 to do near perfect cheats of performance metrics we want to hit which the ps5 completely lacks this means the only thing a pc will have at that point is actually not cheating to get there by extreme brute force on top end hardware and the visual result won’t exactly be transformative like it is vs ps5 but he didn’t say it well and came off fanboyish

 

[playsaves3]

Yes I’ve been on the fence about waiting for a Pro or just jumping on a powerful PC. I cracked and got an Intel Core i7 13700k / 32GB RAM / 4080 PC. It’s in a lovely case too. If there’s something I can print off in my bios or something to prove this to you then I’ll gladly do it. I’ll probably end up getting a Pro too as the FFVII Rebirth performance mode is pretty blurry.

So far to get a locked 60fps on modern AAA games like Cyberpunk on my 4k OLED TV I have to use reconstruction techniques on resolution, framerate and rt. This is what PS5 Pro and PS6 will do to run their games at 4k/60fps with advanced RT. I don’t understand your (or anyone else’s) issue with this inevitability… The industry as a whole is all going in this direction.

The next step imo with be full procedurally made content created by A.I. in real time using cloud compute (PS7).

Quantum computing and simulation is the next step actually

 

[playsaves3]

There is only two prices I could see.

$599 or $499 (with price drop on old model).

What you should expect is 599 without a disc drive minimum up to 699 without a disc drive at maximum I lean towards the former

 

[alucard0712_rus]

Can be said for a lot of Sony 1st party games, namely HFW and GoW Ragnarok

Nah, who will play that again? GT is meant to be played forever unlike story-driven games.